OpenDown net YouTube Baroness Doreen Lawrence An Avoidable Cr Media Xi2S7PG8rKI 001 360p

Well, good evening, everyone. On our screens, I can just see myself and Baroness Doreen Lawrence and also Louise Evans, who's been organising this. And I'm very sad that we can't see you all out there, but I hope that doesn't mean that you can't really take part in this. And we're hoping that we'll have lots of good discussion, even though that'll have to come through on the Q&A. But this is great to have Doreen Lawrence with us and, well, in a sense, with us in Murray Edwards College, though not actually here in presence tonight. And it's lovely to see you again, Doreen, not least because you're an honorary fellow of this college. So we always like to keep in touch. I'm sure everybody will know a lot about who you are, but of course, you are a absolutely great champion of racial equality. And the thing I also like about you, every time we've talked, you always say, but it's not just about race, is I would expect to be arguing for these things for all people where they weren't working properly. But of course, you do have real, really special expertise on all the race issues. And that's incredibly important in its own right. And tonight, we're going to have a pretty informal conversation, I think, about the work that you did in looking at how COVID particularly affected people from BAME backgrounds, and really the analysis of what was going on, because that in itself, I guess, well, does lead to the things that we ought to be doing about this. And they're not just COVID, they are about wider society and what we need to do. So I hope that we'll hear all, you know, some of that really, and get us going. And then we'll move to getting people on, coming in with their questions. And when we do get to that, that'll be, if you would, people on the webinar, if you would go to the Q&A, and then I can see them and read them out for Baroness Lawrence. So, Doreen, at some early stage in this COVID horror that we're going through, it began to be clear that people from BAME, and I think, particularly black communities, were being affected by COVID more than other communities. And you were asked by the head of the leader of the Labour Party, Keir Starmer, to look at that and find out, as I've said, not just what was happening, but what might be done about it. So I'm going to start with the first question about, how on earth did you go about that question? What did you have to do to find out? I had Sarah Thompson, who's like an admin, PR person, or PA person, to help me. And also Marsha Dikovia, who's the women's minister, shallow women's minister. So between us, and the idea, and I think as I started off saying, for me, it's always good to hear people's voices, hear from them, the effect it's having on them, and on their families. So how do we go about this? So Zoom calls were set up. So I think right from the beginning, so I think we started probably, it was announced back in end of April. So by May, we started and Sarah was going out and speaking to all various people to get them to join in our Zoom calls. So we went from Manchester, Birmingham, down in London, we had people from Wales, so it was right across the country. So we had like doctors, a lot of medical people, like nurses, council members, and even some MPs that we had taking part in that. One of the things I wanted to make sure, because I don't like the term BAME, because I think it doesn't address everybody in the way which I think it should. So I kept saying that, you know, unless people really object to it that much, it's black and Asian ethnic minority people. So that is where I started for some people can feel more comfortable in discussing around their own issues rather than everybody sort of lumped together. So for me, that was quite important. So I'd say we started off in Manchester, that's where we had our first Zoom call. So we had families on there as well as council members talking about their first experience of death within their family. And some of them was quite uncomfortable to listen to, I felt, when they talked about the experience that they had, especially when family members went into hospital, and that they're not able to visit them. And when they're dying, they're not allowed to be there. So it's up to the nurses. And right from the beginning, there's a lot of complaints about the PPE, the protection equipment that they should have, that especially the black nurses and things felt that they weren't given adequate protection, which they felt they were more exposed to the virus. And if they were to, I presume, make a complaint to their senior management, it's being brushed off. So nobody was taking them seriously. And so in fact, one nurse said, I didn't go to work to die. And to hear something like that, that is quite telling of how these nurses and doctors were feeling going in. And so they want to be there for their patient. That's what the overriding things that I got out of what they were saying. They want to be there for the patient, they want to be there to support them. But they didn't feel as if they were well protected. So that is where we started from, is around the country, listening to nurses, listening to doctors, and they themselves set up their own support group of how they can support each other. So over, I think we went right through to about July of having various Zoom meetings, sometimes for me, about two or three times a day. And that's quite draining. If you think about it, you're constantly in front of, especially my iPad, because it's what I use. So you're constantly there. So I had to, in between meetings, luckily I have a garden and stuff that I can go out. So I would just go out and sit outside the garden or just potter around, just to give my head, because you're taking so much information in about people's experience and what they're seeing and how people are dying. So for me, that was quite difficult to hear that. So as I said, we did that right up until towards the end of July, that all these Zooms were taking place. And we, as I said, we had even MPs, they themselves talking about what's happening within their constituency, about their people, because people can't see each other. That's another thing. We're all operating from home, or for those who have to go into work, the fact that they don't feel safe. So we had bus drivers talking about what's happening for them, because they too were dying from COVID. So it's, I think it's just the sheer amount of people that have been affected by this disease. And one of the things, because I used to listen to the news in the afternoon, that starts about four o'clock, between four and five it starts. So you'll have the health minister comes on and talking about how things are progressing. And one of the things I felt was quite upsetting is that when people, people from the minority community were dying, he's saying, are these people not following the government instructions? So they've been blamed again for what is happening to them. So, you know, it's trying to have the balance of to let them know that the Labour Party is there trying to support and questioning the government. What are you doing? The PPE and the lack of it. People within the nursing home, people there who are dying. So you're having all of those things going constantly. So by the end of our review, we came up with about 18 recommendations. And for me, one of the big one is to do around the structural racism that exists. So that this is not something new. This is something that's been going on for decades. And I think that is how come so many, so many people in the community were dying because poor housing, overcrowding housing, having self-employed, have no choice but to go out to work. So they couldn't stay home to protect themselves. So all of those issues have come up. And as I said, the structural racism, I think, is what's been there for decades. And since our report has come out, I've not heard anything from the government. They have not addressed any of the issues. You know, and even now, I remember asking a question in the House of Lords to do when they talk about the vaccine, you know, how many of people from the black and ethnic minority was part of the trial? Because the news now is that within these communities, the take-up is very low because people have mistrust around the vaccine. So the question I remember asking in the chamber was how many people of black and ethnic minority were part of the trial? Because unless people can see themselves that they are part of it and, you know, they don't have any effect on them, then that's it. But people still feel not comfortable in taking the vaccine. Did you get an answer to that in the Lords? Well, no, the government doesn't usually. What they tend to say, oh, we've had how many people who were part of it. But you never get a clear number. And this time around, people are still dying. But at the beginning, you would see how many percentage or how many people from the community were dying. Now you don't see that anymore. They don't report on that anymore. They have no idea what the figures are anymore. So people have been asking the question, but they don't give you, you know, I think ministers have a way of answering questions without answering your question. Yeah, but it's pretty shocking that leaving aside the vaccine and how many were in those trials, you're right. At the beginning, there was quite a lot about how many people from black and ethnic minorities were, you know, actually dying, or I don't know, or even in the list of new cases or whatever. But we don't hear that at all now, do we? No, those figures are not there. You don't hear anything anymore. I think because there were so many complaints and wanted the government to do more to make sure that they were protected. And so they don't report on that anymore. So we don't hear. And as I say, from the 18 recommendations we've come up with, so we start looking at education and children going back to schools. We looked at the people travelling on the transport, how much that is, people wearing masks that we've talked about, the lack of PPE that people within professions are asking for. But all of those questions, and I've not seen anything that the government has come back. They've talked about that later on, they will have an inquiry towards the end. But by then, how many more people need to die before you know exactly what has happened during the pandemic? Those are some issues that the government would be quite happy to come out, but they're not. The people are still left in the dark. Yeah, no, that's really, I mean, horrifying, really, still, because at the time you were doing the report, and a bit after, there was quite a lot of talk about how black and ethnic minorities were being affected by COVID, and lots of questions being raised, really, about the, as you said, was it poor housing, or was it actually the nature of the occupations that they were in, that they were in lower paid jobs, in hospitals and all around? And was that the reason they were getting affected? Because, I mean, as I understand it, there are no genetic reasons whatsoever that have ever been found on this. This is all, it's all about living life in the way people have to live their lives and work, really. I was going to say, even at the beginning, those deaths that were being reported, these were doctors. And so they weren't living in poor housing, they weren't living in overcrowded housing. So there is something else that was happening, but we haven't got to the bottom of it. We have no idea why. Because doctors who had retired, had gone back in to help, and within weeks that they'd caught COVID, and they'd died. You know, there were so many, as I said, the first how many black and ethnic were dying, they were doctors, they're from the medical profession, who were dying. Because I think because they were so close to it, and not having the right protection, that's why they were dying. Yeah. And is there anybody doing any research on that? You know, sort of real research, looking at different groups or something, different, let's say the medical group or the nursing group, or, you know, people in transport or any, but is anybody following? I haven't heard of anything. I think everybody's looking like in the future to say, well, we've got to have an inquiry and talk about the research then. Nobody's talking about what they're doing now. You have Professor Fenton, his name come up quite a bit, and like the City Hall have various like Zoom meetings where he talks about the effect it has on individuals, that he talks about it, Professor Fenton, but not where he said, well, we're doing a research into this disease. And also in the early stages, people are talking about vitamin D, that is a lack of vitamin D, but there's nothing to prove that either. So, there's no proof of that. So, there's no research being done on that. And there's also, there's a talk about black people over, like over in, is it India, where you have less death. So, is that to do around, because vitamin D is to do with the sun. Now, is that why there are people from countries like that who are not dying as much as they are, like in American life here in the Western, why people are dying? So, we still don't know those answers. We don't know those answers. We don't know the answers to those questions. But I'll just do one more bit with you and then we'll open to the audience. But well, in many respects, what you found, I guess you're not very surprised about really, in the sense of the things that we've talked about, the institutional issues, like not having PPE and possibly putting more black nurses at risk and so on, but also the community, the poor housing and things. But have you sort of got a series of recommendations about what can be done about this, both quite specifically around COVID, but also the generality, because so many of these things are, as you say, they're much deeper societal issues anyway. Well, yes, I mean, as I say, we have 18 recommendations. Recommendation one says to implement race equality and strategy. Two talks about ensuring policies and programmes help tackle the structural inequality. The next one talks about introducing mandatory pay gap reporting, the thing that finances is a problem. And the other one talks about the hostile environment that people feel that they're living in. Then you have the national strategy to tackle health inequalities. I think sometimes people feel as if the health of the community is not where, because sometimes they're too frightened to go. Or if you have people who are asylum seekers, that they do not report it because they're frightened of going to their GP or going to the hospital about any issues that they have. There's one of us and the recourse to public funds. This is where people have difficulty in going to secure some funding so they can have the right diet and things to eat. Because if you're asylum seekers or refugee, you have that much difficulty in getting any support and funding for you and your family. Ensure that COVID-19 cases from the workplace is properly recorded, so to make sure that you know how many people who are dying. And to strengthen COVID risk assessment to give workers more confidence in what's happening within the workplace, to make sure that the employers making sure that they have all the right equipment and strategy in place to support their workers. And to improve access to PPE, which is what we're talking about there. To give target support to people who are struggling with self-isolation at home. There's loads of that happening because people feel that mental health is a big problem for a lot of people. To ensure protection and end of discrimination for renters, because people in rented accommodation, they feel that they're not getting the right support, so they're probably not getting enough to pay their rent. And so they feel as if they're on the cusp of being convicted. So we have to raise the local housing allowance and address the root cause of homelessness. In fact, because in Westminster there's so many homeless people around the area, and the government says that it provides X amount of money to get homeless people, which they did in the first instance, off the street. But people, you still start seeing people, even in Westminster station where we as parliamentarians come out of, there's loads of homeless people there. And I was speaking to a lady who I've given her money, but then I don't always have money to give out to people, so we do try. And I said, the government is saying that they have enough hostels for homeless people to go to and have somewhere to go and have a hot meal and stuff. And so I said, doesn't that work? Isn't it happening? And she talks about sofa surfing, which makes me think if you're sofa surfing, that you have friends and she looked quite clean. So you can sometimes wonder how much people are those who are living on the street, or those who are just there to beg. So that's something you've got to go for. So you want to support people, at least I do. I try to do that. And to develop and implement a clear plan to prevent the stigmatisation of communities, and that's number 14 of our recommendation, to reform the curriculum to fight the root cause of racism, which I presume is around the same time as Black Lives Matter and George Floyd, what's happening there. And I feel within our education, if we make sure that within the structure of education, it allows young people to understand around why people are here and how racism within the different countries, and even to know where Britain's part in all of that. If you go back to the Windrush, you had the Windrush scandal that happened a couple of years ago. So those issues are still there. So until we start doing our education in a way where we are teaching young people, as they grow up, an understanding of the effects of racism, then we're not going to move forward. So I think our last one was to collect and publish better data, because the data is not always correct. It's fascinating to collect much better data, which is what the policy should work from, because if you've got the data, then when you're putting policies together and able to implement them, you need the data that would help you to do that. If you don't have the data, then in the dark. Yeah. No, well, that was fantastic. I hope that everybody out there who's listening, I mean, I was interested in your last but one point about education. And I mean, in a sense, that's what you being on gives us all an education, really, on all these things. Can I get people to come in on the Q&A for questions, or even just comments I'd like to put to Baroness Lawrence. I'm really looking forward to seeing some things popping up. This is your big chance, everybody. You don't get to talk to Doreen every day. Well, can I, while they're doing that, can I give a plug around the Stephen Lawrence Day? That's kind of April. We are working on delivering the Stephen Lawrence Day. So we have things like assemblies in schools. We're going to have webinars where, especially over at De Montfort University, that's got the Stephen Lawrence Research Centre that they've been putting up on their webinar so that you can see some of the things within the centre and also look at some of the archiving stuff also. So they'll be doing, so we're trying to make sure we involve as many schools as possible and to have ambassadors, to have, I can see one person here. So the Stephen Lawrence Day, so if the university wants to get involved in promoting the Stephen Lawrence Day, that'd be great. Yeah, no, that's good. I think our students in Murray Edwards were involved a bit last year. Yeah, they had more bigger plans. Actually, they had bigger plans. I remember what happened. And then, of course, we had COVID and lockdown and it all slightly disintegrated and everything, although I think they did a few things. But Julia Turner, who's one of our medics, directors of studies, came up and thanked you on that. But I do hope some of the students are going to give you some more questions. Any data? Yeah, what Julia says, I'm wondering if you have any data around the vaccination programme? No, not really. Not where, because each evening it shows you that we've had over 20 million people already being vaccinated. And I'm one of them, so I've had my vaccine. I'm one of them. But they're still saying there's a very low take-up from black and Asian. But then each time they show you the news, they show you Asian people and black people are having the vaccine. But I think they put that down to some of the homes that people that are looking after people within residential care. A lot of them have not had the vaccine. Yeah. But what you said before was right, really, that people don't trust. There's been so many ways that people have been told the wrong things, been part of things that are really horrible. It's hardly surprising that people get worried about anything like a vaccine. And to be honest, even more in the US than here, I think, actually, where I think that the evidence there seems to be that black people really don't trust what's going on with vaccines. And it is more difficult here. But as you said, there's a lot of people going on TV, trying to say, I'm from that background and I'm doing it to try and encourage people. And a lot going on. I keep hearing bits about people saying, but it's about local communities. You've got to work for local communities. I have to say, my criticism of the government, one of the big things in all of this is you've got to work with communities. I mean, all the centralised stuff that they did right at the beginning, just wasn't in, you know, it didn't reach communities. And yet we've learned that so much in all of public health, you know, for ages. So now we've got some more coming. Oh, Ruchi. Ruchi is another one of our medics. And she actually works out at Adenbrookes. Yeah. She's asking on the vaccines, have you got ideas about how they can be further promoted? I think some of the things that they're doing by engaging with people. Sorry, my phone. It's all right. Oh, you haven't got to go and take a vote, have you, at this moment? No, I've got my phone set. It should show me. It says that there's a vote, amendment four. So it hasn't come up yet. I presume people like me, it's useful to go out and say to people, but then I have a difficulty in saying that, okay, I can't tell you, you must have the vaccine. I can encourage you. Because I think if I say you must have it, and you may be one of that 100% that it goes wrong for, I don't want to be the person that is saying, yeah, that is what you should be doing. It's like my brother at the moment. I'm trying to persuade him to go and have the vaccine. And I know he's nervous. So as a family, we're talking. I think he should go and have it. But at the end of the day, it's still up to the individuals what they want to do. And I think where the black community is concerned, I think it's the experience that they've had of centuries and generations ago, where they were used as guinea pigs to protect that vaccine. And that's why people are so concerned, whether or not now, if that's what it is. But I think from how you can see on the box, the vaccine being rolled out, it is not the case of that. Because, you know, if they're only testing it in Africa, say, then you know, there's a problem. Yeah, yeah. But people across the world is having, then I saw something where the Italian and the French don't want to use the Oxford vaccine. And then somebody said, well, perhaps you should just send it to the poor country. You know, great. Yes. But, you know, you don't want to. You don't think it's safe. But the black Africans, they can have it. Yeah. Yeah. Just need to be careful. Absolutely. Yeah. I think I've seen a few or heard on the radio, a few sort of GPs and people saying, you know, and pharmacists too, you know, let us do more of this at local level because we know the people and they trust us more, you know, that we've been their doctors or whatever. You know, it's got to, you know, if you can go somewhere local and you see the people that you already know, you're much more likely to trust them, aren't you, than some stranger, you know, in some centre that you, you know, some distance away and things. And in fact, when it was rolling out, people had to travel so far to get the vaccine. It wasn't being done at their local GP. So, you had to travel. So, you live in the South East, you had to go to North London somewhere to get the vaccine. And if you're, if you're supposed to be staying at home and isolating, how do you get to those places? So, those are some things that the government needs to bear in mind when they're telling people to go off here. But how do they travel and get there? And those who don't have a card, especially if they're tested. Remember, people were expected to drive hundreds of miles. And for those who don't have a car, how do they get there? We've got another question in which was much the same, really, how can we improve vaccine trust and uptake among all communities? But I think you've given quite a few bits of the answer to that, really. You know, the local, the knowing people, families and respected people, you know, saying things about it, really. So, let's hope that that keeps going. What's the next one? Oh, yeah. Jeff says, welcome back to Murray Edwards. Mental health issues related to housing insecurity and rent. Did you find any difference here in terms of gender? Now, that's an interesting one. Maybe we should get into gender a bit, but start with the housing and so on. Yes, there's loads of people, loads of people, families were saying about renting, because especially in some community, you have intergenerational mix within the family. And especially with young kids going out and coming in, they have no place to isolate within their home. And so I think that's how some of the, it was spreading because they didn't have, they weren't able to do that, to isolate. And that was one of the big problem that people talked about. How do they isolate when you have a generation living in the same household? Yeah. Yeah. And I remember also that the whole business about the numbers about self-isolation, and I don't mean necessarily by the black and ethnic minority community, just the fact that many, many people who ought to be isolating just weren't able to do that. And we didn't, I mean, this is general, we all of us didn't support them well enough in being able to be isolating. I mean, lots of communities did lots of things, but it still meant there were a lot of people who felt either they just couldn't do that at home, or it was your point about earlier about, you know, going back to work. They actually hadn't got the money. They just could not, you know, stop work. Yeah. Exactly. And I mean, so overcrowding, overcrowding affects us no matter what race you are. Overcrowding can affect so many people. But how does the government support those families? I have no idea how they would do that because I presume because we weren't prepared for it. So it happened. And then when the government should have isolated or shut down, they didn't. They let it go on for so long. And by then, you know, it had spread. And it's almost out of hand by then, because once it starts spreading, and you don't know how it's spreading. And I remember the Mayor of London was saying, was suggesting in the early stages that people should start wearing masks. But the government didn't give that to wear masks until much, much later. Yeah. People about wearing masks now. Yeah. Do you want to pick up the gender issue? It was particularly relating to sort of housing insecurity, rent and all of that. But do you want? How did you see it affecting women if they did differently in the in the black and ethnic minority community? As you say, not just one. I don't remember having so much of that coming, because it's usually single parents and their children, which is mainly women anyway, which is mainly you have. And so that just part of the whole mix about families who feels that not able to separate or not have enough money to support their family. So and so if you think about this, I'm giving the 20 pounds to families, and then they want to cut it and you hear so many families with their children saying this money helps them so much in order to give them a hot meal. Yeah, yeah. So you know, I think the government has a lot to do. But unless they take things seriously, and start putting things in place, this has been going on before the pandemic, and the pandemic has just made it worse, basically. Yeah, well, we'll just come on to that in a minute. There was another question up from Ruchi about homeschooling as well, which was really about have communities been affected differentially, you know, sort of when it comes to homeschooling, and I guess that's general, but including within the different communities, you know, black, Asian, ethnic minorities. I think all I've seen about that is where, and then it is where families have to work from home, because they can't go to the offices and still trying to homeschool their children, the difficulties that they're having. And also, yes, I've listened to a lot of children and teenagers, who mental health is beginning to be a big issue for them. Because if you think about teenagers who, I was using my granddaughter as an example, she turned 16 during the pandemic. And what a 16 year old usually do, she's not able to, you know, get a part time job, meet up with her friends. And now she has to go back to college, which she doesn't want to go back to college, because she spends so much time at home. And which is what happened to a lot of young people. It's a difficulty now of trying to get them back into schools and back into college. The difficulty is there, because they're so used to being at home. And the isolation is not good for them either. Because they don't have that interaction with their friends, with teachers, and sitting in front in a classroom. So going back to school this week. Yeah, you know, everybody's struggling. Kids are struggling, parents are struggling. Yeah. No, we're the same here with our students. I mean, it's been really sad. You know, Cambridge should be a fantastic experience for everybody. And, you know, obviously educational, but it's much more than that. And, you know, all the students in rooms, well, if they're isolating, or just because we're in lockdown, you know, not being able to make friends, see new people, all those, you know, things that you do as a young person, you know, just actually stop. I mean, it's very, very hard for them to see, you know, they're very important parts of your life. You don't want to miss them, do you? I mean, they don't come back again, you know. And that's the same, well, particularly children of all ages, really, as to what's going on. It's those experiences that you have, and you sort of carry with you through life. And if you haven't had the experience, especially for university, going back, all the things that you make new friends, friends for life, those things are not happening for students. Yeah, yeah. Now I know, Doreen, you're probably going to have to go and vote in a minute. I'm just going to see if there are just one or two other comments, questions coming up before we just draw this to a close. Any more coming in there? Ah, yeah, the last one, good one. Are you optimistic about getting a public inquiry on this in the future? I think there's enough people making noises, and I think, yes, I am. I think there's enough people making noises that we need to have understanding how the government manages or had managed the pandemic, because I think in the early stages, they didn't. They really didn't. All that money that they spent on getting PPE, that doesn't work. That's just wasted money. If they do have a public inquiry, I guess the question is how to make sure that it really does look at the issues that you've been talking about, that affect Black and ethnic minority, Asian and ethnic minority communities, and really looking at that as well, because there's a horrible feeling with the public inquiries that we're a bit big and general, and there's room for that, because they clearly made huge mistakes at the beginning. Unbelievable, really, from Britain, when it was one of the first countries who understood public health at all, but beyond that, there is the different communities and whether this could be very positive in terms of Black, Asian and ethnic minority being taken seriously and some more things happening, but it won't be unless that's brought out really how it particularly affected them in the different ways, really. I think it's always to make sure that they have the right voices, because if you don't have the right people, if you just have ministers and people who does policies and stuff, you will never get and understand the real impact of what the pandemic has made on people's lives, so it's to have that, and then if you think about in between all of that, we have Brexit also, so it's like having a double whammy, trying to cope with what we've had with Brexit and the pandemic, how's people suffering, what people's lives are like now, what their livelihoods are like. I asked the question about fisheries, because the government talks about that we're getting our waters back, but the reality is they haven't, so as I say, it's having those mixture coming with all of this now, and people still have to earn a living, they still have to get on with life, and having Brexit and the pandemic together, it's a dreadful thing for people. Yeah, but what you said makes me think if our students wanted to do something and really get going, first of all, there's pushing for a public inquiry, but within that, saying make sure you talk to ordinary people who have suffered in various different ways, whether it's death, or jobs, or mental health, all the other things that we know about, and beyond that, make sure you really, really have a look at what's happening to the different communities, as you say, black, Asian, ethnic minority, really look at how they were affected particularly, because we could do something, we could use this as a way to move other things, you know, it's about trying to make things better out of this dreadful experience of COVID really, and using this to do it. I was going to say, also the medical profession, because they're the ones at the coalface of all of that, they're the ones that having to see this day to day, you know, we are in our homes, and we can listen to news and everything, but for those people on the front line, the impact and the effect on them, I don't think anybody's really looked at, especially around their mental health for the past year, because I mean, so March is a year since the first lockdown happened. So, you know, the impact of all of that. Yeah, yeah. No, well, that was absolutely fantastic, Doreen, and lovely to do it, you know, talking, you know, not just sort of a lecture, but, you know, really, you know, talking and listening to you and picking up the different questions. I mean, really, again, it always, you always touch real life, you know, it's really great to have you, you know, talking with us. And, you know, and that does mean, if you do that, then you do start seeing the things that really matter and the things that need to be sorted out and put right, really. So, we're always, we're always behind you. And if we can do more to push you in and make things happen, that's absolutely great, really. And also, can I say, happy International Women's Day. True, happy International Women's Day, yeah. Yeah, so all that is happening in the background also, women recognising all the work that women are doing. Yeah, yeah. No, we had a, to finish off, we had an event on Saturday for students and alumni, and we always have, because we've got very good postgraduate students from all around the world, we always use it as an opportunity to find out something about women in a bunch of different countries, not in a research big sense, but just what are women experiencing in different places, really. So, that was, that was really great. And plus, we had a school, 15, 16 year olds in, from a deprived area in Southampton, who did a fantastic performance online for us about what they thought about women. It was just great, just great. That sounds really lovely, yes. Now, we're going to let you go, and you can worry about your voting, and whether you've voted or not, and which way to vote. Okay, well, nice seeing you all, and thank you for having me, and I hope that university gets back from strength to strength, you know, as we move forward. Yeah, no, great, Doreen. Yeah, lovely to have you with us, absolutely lovely. And, you know, everybody would be putting their thumbs up, I think, if you could only see them, but, you know, thank you so much. Yeah, it's just great to have you. Yeah, bye-bye then. Okay, all right. Get back to it. Bye. Bye.