Fred Claire was Dodgers GM during their magical 1988 season and more | GM Files Ep 5

Welcome to another edition of the GM Files. Jim Duquette alongside one of the greats, the general manager, former general manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers, Fred Clair. Fred, nice to see you. Congratulations are in order. You have been around the Dodgers organization for a long time. Obviously, you still keep your eye on them. They won the World Series this year in 2020. What did that mean to you specifically to watch? Because the last time they won the World Series was it was the team that you directed and built back in 1988. So so now your fans have something to talk about in addition to the 1988 World Series champs. Well, it meant a great deal to me, Jim. And one of the primary reasons was not only the success of the Dodgers and seeing them back on top. But Dave Roberts has become a very good friend. And and, you know, through their trials of recent years, I say trials, but getting into postseason play and World Series opportunities and not accomplishing their goal. I know how difficult it was from for Dave and seeing the media and so forth. And so I texted him a year ago and said, Dave, that the way that you handle yourself is always one of the happiest moments for me will be to see you holding that World Series trophy. That was the year before he they won this year. So I was very pleased to see the success of the Dodgers this year. And actually, Jim, so many notes of congratulations. I actually think I got more congratulations this year than I did in 1988. I had nothing to do with it, but I'll accept it all. And no, I was very, very happy. They have, as you know, Jim, a wonderful team built for the future. They really do. And so I want to ask you about that, because you and I spoke recently and and you had some really good points that I wanted to get out there in terms of. So some of the players, obviously, from your team and maybe some comparisons to this year's team, right? So back in your in the 88 team with Kirk Gibson, star player, you signed him. And then Oral Hirschhiser, of course, Cy Young that year. 88 had the long, obviously, scoreless streak. And we always in baseball like to make comps, comparables, right? So so I want to start with this year with Mookie Betts, right? The acquisition of Mookie Betts to maybe the acquisition to Kirk Gibson. And what you know, maybe are there. Did you see any links or comparables in those two players? Very, very strong links on so many fronts. As you mentioned, I mean, we brought in Kirk in 1988. And he was really the spark. I mean, we had talent that was there. But Kirk was the person who set the example by him, as you know, by the way he played the game. And I think he was probably one of the few players to be a first year player with the team to win the most valuable player award. Mookie, the more I saw of Mookie this year in the postseason, the more he reminded me of Kirk. Obviously not the same players totally. But the one strong similarity they had was the way they play the game. Leadership, giving everything you have and setting the example for the team. So there was a very, very strong relationship there. Comparison in in in my mind. And they they clearly in the case of Mookie, in the case of Kirk, proved to be the leaders of the team. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, you know, again, the star players in L.A., that certainly brings a lot of attention, as you are well aware, brings a lot of attention, focus, interest to to the club. I also want to make a comparison. See your thoughts. The Oro Hirschhiser to Clayton Kershaw comparison, of course, Clayton superstar pitcher Dodgers. I don't know what it is with with Dodgers and superstar pitchers that are out there, but certainly Kershaw and in Oro, what Oro meant to that 88 team, to maybe what you've seen out of Clayton, not just this year, but what you've seen out of Clayton over the last few seasons. I think there are two strong comparisons, not only in the talent of the pitcher, because that is evident and obvious. The character of those two players is so strong. And in addition to Dave Roberts is the manager. I was so really thrilled for Clayton, even though I don't have a personal relationship with Clayton. Again, the way he has handled the tough times in postseason, always taking responsibility, always wanting to be the guy, always wanting to fulfill that role and doing it from a team concept, always for pitchers, but always about the team. So there is a close, close link, Jim. And so we have those very direct comparisons 32 years later of the of the quality of the people in addition to the talent of the people. Yeah, it is incredible. And I still remember Hirschhiser's celebration after they won the World Series and jumping in. I think it was in the Rick Dempsey's arms and looking up at the sky. And Kershaw's reaction, too, right after the win. He was in a different spot. He wasn't on the mound. He was in the bullpen, but he was also looking up, right? Strong, strong character people who set the right example, who never run away in tough times or difficult times, who are always there standing up for the team and such great representatives of the game of baseball. Tremendous, tremendous to see that that that legacy and those accomplishments. I wanted to get your insight in some of the behind the scenes story about the Kirk Gibson home run. That's I still think it's the most historic moment in World Series history. You go back there, but I don't know if you'd be too many arguments there of what he was able to do in one at bat and change the momentum off of, of course, the future Hall of Famer Dennis Eckersley and how dominant he was. You were you had a front row seat to Gibson and him coming up. And it had to been a lot of question whether you would even be able to see him for that game because of the hamstring injury. Can you take us through that? The moments as you're, you know, seeing and hearing him coming to the plate and everything that's surrounded the iconic moment. The one thing that we saw quickly and I saw quickly in Kirk is you absolutely were going to get everything he had to give in any day, not just on a World Series game from the very start, as has been pretty well documented in spring training. The way that he played the game, he wanted to play the game and to set the example of a absolutely fierce competitor. And that's exactly what he did. So to see Kirk come out of the dugout despite what he was battling in terms of the injury to his leg. Honestly, it was not a surprise because that's simply who Kirk is. And the other thing that was a part of that, and it's been documented by Kirk, by everyone in the Dodger organization, that's for some reason debated by some. The scouting report, the late Mel Didier did. All you need to do is to ask Kirk Eckersley 3-2, partner, you'd better be looking for the backdoor slider. And there is and Kirk was that thorough. People who didn't know Kirk, who don't know Kirk, don't realize how thorough he is in everything he does on the playing field, off the playing field. That's certainly that is who he is. And that moment was so great, but also great, Jim, and you appreciate this from the standpoint of what it meant and what it means today to the importance of scouts. And today there are there are the analytics that shows what any pitcher does on any count. But you have to have that human element to say this is the key point here. And that was a huge part of that. It really was. You know, and like you said, his intensity, his attention to detail were things I know you got you had a chance to appreciate there with him. You wouldn't have gotten to that moment without a couple of key moments in the NLCS that I wanted to talk to you about that year. One that was one of those incidents that I don't know if I've seen it happen in a World Series game since the Jay Howell-Pinetar incident. And then, of course, I think that was in game three and in game four, I believe, at bat before Mike Socha's home run and Socha's home run. So I wanted to ask you about those two things. First, with the Howell event, I really was struck because as a general manager, you know, a lot of times we don't see a lot of we don't see accountability enough. And when he was caught using Pinetar in that situation, you demanded behind the scenes that he admit everything, the truth, and I was really struck by that. Could you take us through some of the details as you remember it from that? Well, at Shea Stadium, a very cold day, and as we both know from our own experience, there are times when pitchers will use Pinetar, not necessarily impacting the pitch other than better command. We know that. We also recognize the rules of the game, but when Davy Johnson had an inkling or word or whatever, and called out Harry Wendelstad to check Jay, and Wendelstad removed Jay from the game, and the fans, the Mets fans, bless their heart because I really do love Mets fans, began to chant Dodger's Chief, Dodger's Chief. And I don't know that I have ever been more upset with the ballgame. We may get beat, you get beat a lot in this game, but the one thing that I wasn't going to tolerate was the words Dodger's Chief, and so Jay's removed from the game, I go into the clubhouse, and to our clubhouse, and I tell Tommy, you get Jay in here, and you get Ron Peronowski, and I'm going to tell you one thing, at this point, because at that point, I didn't know exactly what it was. There are many ways that you can change a baseball, and some are flagrantly against it. And I said, I don't know what the hell happened, but I want to tell you this, when the press comes in, go to the league, whatever the hell happened here, unless we have the absolute transparency and truth, this will not work because we're not going to tolerate anything. I said, we are in this together. As a team, but we're going to be totally transparent, totally honest on what the hell happened here, because we may get our ass kicked, but we're not going to be labeled cheaters, not today, not ever. And as it turned out, as I recall, Jay was suspended for two games, having the background, knowing it was pine tar, I went to Bart Giamatti, and it was reduced to one game, but you know, Jim, what's really interesting about that. We had a zoom call a year or so ago, the 88 Dodgers, Jay was so disappointed in himself to this day, more than 30 years later, because he said, I felt like I had left the team down, we don't make it to the world series and we don't win the world series. We had no closer a year before, zero, Oro was offering to be the closer. I said, you'll be the closer over my dead body is when you'll be. So that, that was, that was Jay, bless his heart. That's a good story. So I want to talk, so that game, that was game three, right? Game four, you're losing late. I think Dwight Gooden's on the mound, dominating. And then the moment that I think was the backbreaker for Mets fans that year and that series, because the Mets were coming in, they were clear favorites. At least they had won the best record. They had the best record, 12 or 12 out of 13 or whatever it was. Right. And, and they told them, they let you know how good they were too, but the, so the Mike Socia home run was set up by the bat before, and a lot of times it gets overlooked on highlights, but John Shelby, who's a guy that I really love and he's still, still around the game and coaching and once had a key at bat. So could you take us through those two at bats, Shelby and Socia? Well, John Shelby, certainly one of the all time favorites for anyone who knew John. So here we are in New York. John had a number of strengths as a player and as a hitter. One that he didn't have was patience and total control of the strike zone. So Dwight Gooden on the mound and for John to draw that walk was absolutely, Jim, you're absolutely right. It was, I've always said in baseball that every pitch, every play, there are no small pitches. Then there are no small play. They're all significant in determining the outcome. And so that walk, uh, was absolutely, uh, critical. So she hits the, uh, the home run and that, and I'll have to tell you a side story because it took place and I hadn't thought in these terms, taking place at Shea, because that was, um, in the end of 88, at the beginning of 87, we needed a center fielder. We didn't have someone to play center field. I had just taken over the Dodgers general manager. We had to find, we had brought up a young man from double A and he clearly wasn't ready. John had been sent down by the Orioles to start the 87 season, even though he had played parts of two or three seasons with the Orioles. And, um, I sent Mel Didier into Rochester to look at John and I'll tell us, cause it's kind of the bookends to what happened in 88. And, uh, Mel went in this big trench coat, stained back from everybody. He called me, he said, Fred, it's colder than hell here in Rochester. And he said, John, you've got something here to look at. He's the first guy out on the field. He said, Fred, it's freezing. So you, you would think this guy's a rookie trying to, uh, um, get to the big leagues. So we, um, make the trade, uh, Tommy fewer, uh, or, uh, John Shelby and Brad Havens. John's in Rochester with the Orioles club. And I'll never forget, uh, being in, uh, New York, Grand Hyatt calling John and saying, John, um, we just made a deal and that we need to have you report tonight. And we're chasing Rochester. He said, Oh, Mr. Clary said, uh, no, he said, uh, it'll take me, uh, three days to get to Albuquerque. He says, my wife is pregnant. We have the young child. And true, Jim, one of the most impactful exchanges I ever had with the player. I said, John, you're not going to Albuquerque. You are the starting center fielder of Los Angeles. And Jim, it seemed like there was three minutes of silence. I didn't know whether I'd lost him and his words were unforgettable to me. I've waited all my life to hear those words. And if you look at John Shelby in 87, from the time we made that trade, May 27th, I he hit as many home runs and drove in as many runs as any center fielder in the national league. So that John Shelby, what he meant, uh, is typical of what that team was all about. I love that story. And, and, you know, and John's still involved in the game now and one of the greatest guys that you'll ever meet. So I love, I love, and here's Mel Didier again, making another contribution to that 88 team, right? So, um, so I, so that's an interesting segue. I wanted to go to, uh, you mentioned, you know, Shea stadium and you saw a lot of the Mets during those periods of time. Um, so after the 88 World Series, you go into 1990 and you decide that you need a, a power hitting left-handed stick to play right field. And, um, Frank Cashin, who was my mentor, uh, growing up, uh, as an executive, wasn't happy that you grabbed a homegrown town and Darryl Strockberry and signed up to go to LA. Can you take us through that, uh, how that all came about? Um, and why was he your target? Well, when, uh, Darryl as a, um, as a free agent and, uh, and looking at Darryl and thinking, here's this player really at the peak of his career. If you look at a, his progression to bring Darryl back to his home, grew up in South Central Los Angeles, Prince Hall High School. We we've got a chance to really do something here that could be dramatic. Uh, so, um, being able to, uh, sign Darryl and the, the other part of that was that the attention that, that you're remembering, uh, the press conference and what it meant wasn't done for, uh, we were negotiating a television contract. Wasn't done because we were negotiating a television contract, but I will tell you that the impact was huge. And, um, Darryl, um, unfortunately, and so good to see that all the reports I have during well today, um, the, uh, the temptations of life were too great. Uh, and the other part of that, Jim, as you know, is that, uh, I signed Eric Davis and I'll never forget when I, when I signed, uh, uh, Eric, uh, and Darryl or traded for Eric, uh, Joe Klein, great baseball man said, Fred, when you, you made those two moves, he said, there was no doubt in my mind, they will raise a World Series flag at Dodger State. And those who know the game, know the talent, both from South Central LA, both bringing them back to Los Angeles at a time of great turmoil in the city. Didn't do it because of that, but it was really, it has to come under a heading. Uh, and they're both, uh, friends and it's good to see that their life seemed to be in good order. They never really totally for whatever reasons took advantage of the opportunity that was there and presented for them. So, um, uh, and Darryl, um, uh, when he got off track, uh, and, uh, Miss a game, uh, with the, uh, angels and the spring training, uh, whatever year that was at good signing, um, and his behavior had been such that, um, I wasn't going to call him out on every, every point. And, uh, and I remember when, uh, we, um, I gave him his release. I remember his words. He said, Fred, I'm just so sorry. And that that's life. And, uh, and again, happy for, from what I see of Darryl and his life today. I've come across Darryl, um, over the years when I was in the Mets and he's become motivational speaker and, and he was, uh, uh, inspirational to some of our young players, uh, coming up on our organization. So, so you're right to your point to that point. Yeah. So that brings me to, uh, Tommy Lasorda and you obviously had a long standing relationship with Tommy. He was your manager. He had to tie all these pieces together, right? So front office grabs the players, brings them in and builds out the roster and out it's up to Tommy and the manager and the coaching staff to make that work on the field, um, first, just about him as a manager, I wanted to ask you what made him the so special for the Dodgers and, you know, some insight there. Well, I first met Tommy, uh, in the spring of 1969. I'm covering the team at spring for the long beach newspaper. Tommy is the manager of Spokane. We became immediate and very close friends. We probably don't have time for the story, but I actually played shortstop, replaced Bobby Valentine, uh, in the spring training game at the spring training workout game between the Dodgers and, uh, uh, Bakersfield, uh, Bakersfield person, Spokane and Bakersfield. So our relationship was extremely close. So Jim, that I could see in Tommy is absolute passion for the game and, and trying to get the best out of players. Not only his words, but his actions and everything that he would do, uh, just totally driven. And, uh, so that was our beginning. Uh, that was now, uh, 51 years ago. So let's fast forward a half a century and Tommy's been hospitalized and a day ago, I called Tommy told him that Cheryl and I were thinking nothing. He's in our thoughts. He's in our prayers and told him that what I feel that I love him. So our, our, uh, our relationship and we've had our bumps in the road. You tell me a manager and a general manager and particularly two guys that have, uh, no one, one another for a half a century and been through all of that. But what has made Tommy great is, uh, is really, uh, you know, Tommy has changed very little in this life and knowing him for 50 years, he's still, he he's the guy from Norristown. He lives in the same house in Anaheim that he's lived for 50 years. Tommy, uh, giving to others, doing his best in everything. And that's why a golf tournament that I had a couple of years ago for the city of Hope. I gave, and this was such a treat. We gave our celebration of life award to Tommy because on that award that I wanted to establish is the quote from someone I had the honor to know, Jackie Robinson. And that quote is a life. It's not important except on the impact it has on other lives. And if you think about celebrities, people in sports, people in politics, there are few, few who have impacted the life in a positive way that Tommy has countless hundreds, thousands, millions. So, um, I have great memories of Tommy and, uh, his, uh, his legacy is there, uh, for always, for all time. No question. Our prayers are with him too. Hopefully he'll be, uh, he'll be out of the hospital soon. Um, you mentioned having impact that leads right into Jackie Robinson. I wanted to ask you about, um, Jackie Robinson, Don Newcomb. Uh, and those two in particular have had impacts speak with Jackie impacts beyond the game. You know, and clearly Jackie was, um, when he first came up to the major leagues and now, as you see the Jackie Robinson day that major league baseball celebrates every April 15th. What is it about Jackie Robinson that resonated with you while you were with the Dodgers and the fact that he is associated not only as a Dodger, but so broadly in major league baseball and really throughout the world? Well, you mentioned the two, we, we also, as the foundation have to mention the third and that's right. Right. They go together. I first had the opportunity to meet and be with Jackie in 1972, in June of 1972, when we retired first numbers in Dodger history, the numbers of Jackie and Roy and Sandy, and on that day, I saw something at that, uh, on that day that exemplified Jackie. Jackie was there before the ceremony, the group of people, and I was there and there was a fan in the stands called Jackie and said, Jackie, Jackie sign this ball, sign this ball. And he threw the ball Jackie's way. Jackie's vision at that time was so bad through diabetes, but he not only couldn't have caught it. He couldn't have seen it. It hit his shoulder and bounced off his head. And everybody around Jack went crazy. Get that guy throwing out of the ballpark, arresting Jackie. I'll never forget it. Said, calm down, calm down. Give me the ball, give me a pen, sign the ball, give this back to the and all the turmoil, which was typical of what Jackie faced in his life and career, he was both a calm and the driving force now, Jim forward from 72 in June to the world series. When commissioner Billy asked Jackie to throw out the first ball. And he said, I will throw it out. If you give me a chance to speak for the game. Well documented on YouTube. I was standing there for that ceremony with Peter O'Malley and others. And before Jackie was to go out and this person approaches Jackie and Jackie doesn't make any movement. And someone whispers in Jackie's ear, Jackie, it's Pee-wee. If we are in Cincinnati, Jackie couldn't see and they embrace. Now go to YouTube and see that ceremony. Jackie's there and said that he thanked the captain for being there. He thanked Mr. Ricky and he said, because it was what Jackie was all about in terms of diversity and fairness. Baseball has made good strides, but I will not be happy until I see a black man in the third base coaching box, meaning the manager, Jackie wanted very much for his family to be there that day. And they weren't sure they wanted to be in Jackie's own description. Nine days later, Jackie Robinson passed away. So what Jackie Robinson was, was someone who stood for all of the right things in life. And to have the blessing of having known him, been with him to know Rachel through all the years, having the blessings to know Don Newcomb and he and I made a major part, played a major role in getting Maury Wills into rehab a number of years ago, many, many decades ago. To know Kathy and to stay in touch today with someone I spoke to just the week or so ago, Carl Erskine, who's there to recall what those boys of summer was so far beyond baseball. It's hard to put into words, but such a blessing to have had a history with the Dodgers because when I grew up and saw my first game across the field where Pete re-embraced Jackie and to have that foundation and to have that opportunity, I've truly been blessed with that. Yeah, no, no question. And, you know, another maybe not as large a moment, but certainly memorable moment with Rick Monday on the field, you weren't the general manager at the time, but you were working for the Dodgers there on the PR side and the moment when a fan came on the field and was burning the flag on the field and Rick Monday comes in and grabs the flag and stomps it out. And you had a behind the scenes moment there that I'd like you to share that story. Well, Rick and I had visited him for the game. He was playing for the Chicago Cubs, but we had been together on a major league tour to Japan in the previous off season. So Rick and I became good friends. And so we visited, now the game starts. Two people, as it turns out, sadly, a father and son come out of the left field pavilion and has something, a package that they're unfolding in left field and as they unfolded. It's clear that it's a, not only a flag, an American flag and the father's trying to strike a match. Rick Monday is in center field and he runs and takes the flag and he pulls it off. The flag comes out and one of the great, great moments in the history of our country. And, uh, Jeff Fellman, sir, I was at the, I was in a position of whatever I was, VP of marketing or whatever. And a young man by the name of Jeff Fellman, sir, was that the old message board where words went up, letters went up one at a time. And I said to Jeff, I said, Jeff, type this Rick Monday, dot, dot, dot. You made a great play. And as Jeff types, those words, the fans and Vinnie adding the voice to it without any prompting begin to rise and saying, started to sing and get saying, God bless America. And Mr. O'Malley called me and said, Fred, this will go down as one of the greatest, if not the greatest day in the history of Dr. State. So, uh, it was, and you know, Jim, the thing about some of these stories and the game, uh, it's all whether it's Jackie Rick money saving flag, it's all so relevant to today. We're not talking about history that we've left behind. We're talking about history that we're bringing forward. Yeah. And they all played an incredible role in that. No question. And I think that, um, those stories and so many others, you've done a great job of documenting. I want to talk about your book here for a second. So this is your, is this your second book? How many books have you written? By the way, I actually, you know, no, I really only written. Uh, I hadn't written any, really. I did a book. Uh, there was a book done on my career with the doctor Fred Clare, my 30 years and, um, I asked him to join me for that book. It actually made the LA times bestseller list because I wanted to be sure it was Steve that he could that, that I was right. I opened my thoughts, but everything I wanted to be checked as factual. It's going to be there. It's going to be as factual as it can be. So that was that book. And then, um, the latest happening was that when I was struck by cancer five and entered city of hope, uh, a wonderful cancer treatment center in Doherty, California, Southern California. And was so impressed with the city of hope that I wanted to see city of hope gain more exposure. I said, I'm, I see this. I know that I know a great team when I see it, and this is a great team. And so city of hope and mascot books reached an agreement. And I said, and even as reference to the earlier book, Fred Clare, 30 years and this book will be the vehicle to go through, this is not a Fred book. This is a book that needs to shine the spotlight on the city of hope and its doctors and fellow patients and the author, Tim Madigan, I believe did a marvelous job of weaving baseball and battling cancer with Jim, so much of it. And one of the meaningful chapters in that book is my friendship with Kevin Towers, as you all know, someone so respected in the game, because all of us don't have the same journey. Kevin fought a much greater opponent, but the book, um, I'm so grateful to those who have responded, all funds from the book go to city of hope and just as important exposure goes to city of hope. So, um, I'm thrilled with the outcome because we're, we're, we're making an impact, um, for cancer treatment. Yeah, there's no question in the book, extra innings, Fred Clare's journey to city of hope and finding a world championship team, um, it is terrific. I'm, I'm into the middle of it. I've loved, I've loved the way, like you said, Tim Madigan really weaved the of your career and Dodgers, uh, some of those great iconic Dodger teams along with what a great work, the people there at, um, city of hope national medical center, what they do. Um, so definitely, uh, we're going to put it, obviously put this out on, on our social media platforms, a couple of quick other ones I wanted to ask you because, um, you, there was, um, you, you were dealing with your own personal cancer, obviously battle. Um, and I think with this, there was a tribute that was done for you. Uh, it was really struck by the amount of outpouring that was speaking on your behalf. What it was superstar baseball players, uh, movie stars, personal friends. What did that mean to you to receive that? Well, it meant, uh, a tremendous amount and a dear friend, former Dodger photographer, rich key. And, uh, what happened was that, um, rich unknown to Cheryl and myself. Uh, and he's the wonderful talk and reached out to friends. He knew the battle that we were facing. I was given a 20% chance to survive like other patients, cancer patients, not even that great of a chance. So he called me one day, he said, Fred, are you at home? I said, no, um, I'll be home shortly. He said, I'm going to leave a package on your doorstep that don't, uh, open it until Cheryl's with you. And so when I got home, it was this package for Cheryl to come in. And there was this book, not a picture in it. And the book is titled shared baseball scenes. And in it, rich had reached out to people that I know. And he knows, I know whether it's the waitress at my breakfast hangout, whether it's oral Hershey's or whether it's Kirk Gibson, whether it's whoever. And their words, Jim, and here's when Cheryl and I were in the real depth of not knowing whether there would be a tomorrow. Uh, to read these words. And the important part of that to me is a message where we can help others. I was fortunate to have a life that somewhat of a public life, but every life, and it reminded me of a story that I read that has impacted me. Women's young lady's father was in assisted living and she didn't feel that he was being treated properly. And so she put together a book on her father, world war two hero, successful businessman involved in many charities. And she took that book to the staff at the assisted living home. She said, I want you to know something in the very common man. This is my father. This is who you're caring for all lives, not one life in the limelight, all lives, and the more we think about that, getting back to Jackie's words in our own ways, but that was extremely meaningful, uh, Jim to, uh, to me and, um, and, um, and inspiring to me to, uh, to know those thoughts. Sure. Absolutely. It struck me in there, uh, in the video, Pete Rose, um, had some really kind words there as well. And it was included in there. I was curious, did you have a relationship with Pete over the years? And then I wanted to ask you just about him as, as a player and maybe even his candidacy for the whole thing. Well, uh, not a close relationship, but in those days, some quickly, uh, the big red machine. I mean, you, you got to know all of them, you know, I mean, whether it was Johnny Bench or he, we, or Joe Morgan, who you would know from my first book was my recommendation to, um, take over the, uh, job as the manager of the Dodgers, even before I was the general manager, uh, in one year, it looked like we may have an opening. And I said, the guy for me is, uh, is Joe Morgan. So I, I, uh, was fortunate. Uh, uh, the, the blessing we have in being in the game, not only to know the players on our team, but others, I mean, someone like Ernie Banks who became a dear friend, uh, so just bless. So, uh, and I always had a special place in my heart for the reds because I was born in a small town in Ohio. My first game was that, uh, Crosby field in Cincinnati. I mean, uh, uh, I go back to the days of the Cincinnati, uh, reds of, uh, Hank Sauer and, uh, and all of the others. So I had that passion and love for the game. Gotcha. All right. Well, one more one to ask you, Fred, I really appreciate your time. Um, uh, I wanted to ask you because it directly impacted the team when I was in the front office there with the Mets, uh, the Mike Piazza trade, and I know that was at the end of your career and, uh, the, the, your new bosses took over and decided that somewhere along the line that, uh, Mike Piazza, you couldn't, you couldn't sign them as a, uh, and so you, and here he was best catcher in the game, rookie of the year and VP, uh, you know, had the relationship as well known with Tommy Lasorda, uh, the fact that you didn't want to trade them, the fact that your employer did, and we've all been in those shoes where you have an owner that tells you that what they want you to do, but how did it been difficult for you? We were the beneficiary of Mike Piazza. He, he took us to the post season after you traded them out. We got them from Marlins, but maybe a detail or two behind the scenes on the Mike Piazza trade. Well, it's, um, it's a trade I didn't make. It's a trade that caught me, uh, totally, uh, by surprise. Um, uh, because, uh, Mike was going to be a free agent at the end of the year. I felt that we could sign Mike, uh, Fox had just taken over as the ownership of the Dodgers. And Jim, the, the, the trade was really made, uh, for the very thing that Fox said it wouldn't do interfere television with baseball. So here I am, uh, wanting to sign Mike, believing that we definitely could sign Mike that we needed to, had to sign Mike. And then a call came in. I can remember being in my box at Dodger stadium, uh, Bob Graziano. Then the president of the Dodgers called me and said that, um, Mike, uh, and Todd zeal have been traded to the Marlins to yeah, to the Marlins. And it needs to be announced tonight. And I told Bob, I said, well, then there will be two announcements tonight because after I announced the trade, I'll announce my resignation and I never quit anything, but I said, I was upset and said, you, you don't need me as a general manager. If someone other than the general manager is making great, uh, that should be the guy that made the trade steps up, takes the responsibility for the trade, went back to my office. Knowing what a dramatic thing that occurred in my career. And, uh, then came the call. Actually, Derek Hall was our list. The guy who's not the president of Arizona, the trend, the trade can't be announced tonight. Um, uh, that, uh, Gary Sheffield has to know trade call. I said, of course he has to know trade falls. Everybody in baseball knows that you and the fans know that I thought that had been resolved. He said, no, it, it, uh, it hasn't been. And so I wasn't going to leave the team in that type of situation. And, um, so, um, uh, I didn't, uh, resign because I wanted to resolve this. We were able to, uh, uh, resolve, uh, Gary's no trade contract, but, uh, that was, uh, and, and then when Fox came to me and said, Fred, that, uh, we, um, apologize for this. And I said, look, uh, because they basically had wanted me to say that I made the trade. I said, look, you got the wrong guy here. It's not as if I haven't made a bad trade, but if you think that I'm going to go before the public and the fans and lie about this, you got the wrong guy. And so the writers told me, Fred, they are so ticked at you that they're, they're going to, they're going to get you. And, uh, sure enough in June, um, they got me, uh, by telling me that I was after 30 years, no longer needed by the team. And, uh, so, um, I went on with, uh, with life and, uh, teaching, uh, being involved in the academic world, being involved in the community and hoping, uh, Jim and staying involved, as you know, uh, with MLB and, uh, uh, starting, uh, helping to start a, um, analytic company with my dear friend, Ari Kaplan, um, and, uh, and staying very close to the game through my contacts in the game. So, uh, uh, it's, um, you know, I was very fortunate whether that's, uh, 11 years, I guess, or 12, that's the role of the general manager. Um, I feel very, very fortunate and very blessed. You had a great run there, Fred, for sure. And you've always been one just from afar as a long time front up as executive, somebody that I tried to, to copy some of the best in the game yourself, Pat Gillick, uh, some good Hall of Fame, John Schurrholz, Frank Cashen, uh, dear friend of mine. So, um, I always appreciate it. And, and you were one of the first, I can remember going from the general manager spot into, uh, into MLB and MLB.com and writing, which I've then followed in your footsteps there and your, your involvement in analytics. Like there's a lot of things that you've always done a great job of staying current and been a great example for me and others to follow. So thank you. Well, I, I followed one thing, uh, Jim, when they, um, cause I described it and I remember telling Ben Hines, the batting coach one day that when I became general manager, I said, you know, Ben, what happened, the ball went up in the air and landed in my hand. I said, they can have the ball back. All they have to do is cut my wrist off and the ball will fall. But until they do, I'm not giving this up because as you well know, as you do, I have loved the game since I was in first remember, um, and have loved it every day, uh, since then. So I appreciate your kind words. Again, uh, Fred, thank you again. Congratulations on your book. Uh, of course, but please, uh, anyone watching here, extra innings, Fred Claire, Claire's journey to city of hope and finding a world championship team. Very relevant, uh, this year comparing the 88 team to some, in some degree, the 2020 world series champions, LA Dodgers. So congratulations on that too. Thanks for a few minutes. Good. You bet. Good to be with you. Take good care.