What Makes Something Delicious? | Food Week Part 1

So I have a little bit of a confession. I love my husband, but the one thing that I can't stand about this man. I love you, honey. He loves Marmite. He's part Welsh, and I never understood it. I've tried it. I've been open-minded, but anytime that he finds out that anyone is traveling to the UK or any of the countries that have Marmite, he's like, can you please bring me some? I don't understand it. So Joseph, let me start with you. In your view, what makes something delicious? Or do you even like Marmite? Because then I'm gonna have to move over there. For myself, it's just that's a weird question. I never got answered. I never got asked that question before. But I think that the thing that makes something delicious, especially for food, is having something made that reminds you of your childhood. And that's the way I cook a lot of the times. A lot of my recipes are based on my childhood growing up. And most times than not, it's like, what is something that I want my son to remember from me being in the kitchen, right? When he gets older. Because he's at that stage now where he's eight years old. He wants to be a chef. He's always asking to come work with me in the kitchen. He's always asking me to come into my classrooms when I teach. And he's been around food his whole life, right? So with my mom cooking, my grandmother, myself. So it's starting to be instilled into him of what it takes to cook food and what you should put into it. Because everything you put into it, either the customer or your family will feel that, right? And that's why I try to play on a lot of my memories. How did I eat this when I was a kid? And how does it represent the way I am now onto a plate? And just thinking about that, it's like, there's a lot of dishes that I really enjoy that only my mom would cook that I really like cook by eating. And then with my grandmother used to cook. So I'm interested to know what, I guess, motivated you or inspired you all to work with food. Anne? Oh, well, that's an interesting question because I don't technically work with food. But I've written about food a lot in the past, and I've written a book about food. It's just, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with what you were talking about, Joseph. You know, food was such an important part of my childhood, such an important part of my upbringing. My dad was a cook growing up. Meals were where we did all of our celebrations, you know, somebody's birthday or Mother's Day or everything was celebrated over a meal. And so it's just always been a really important part of my life, you know, before I think food became cool. In the last couple of decades, I think many of us had already recognized what an important part of life. So did it become cool because of Instagram and all those shareable things? I mean, I think it was a little bit before that. And curiously, I think it happened sort of, 2008 is when Michael Pollan wrote The Omnivore's Dilemma. And that book changed everything because it told us all about what was actually going on on farms with cows and corn. And everyone was like, oh, my God, right? It was the first time it was collected. And he is a wonderful journalist and writer and did a beautiful job of sort of presenting that. But that, in my opinion, cracked open a lot of questions about how are we cooking? Because that was the moment we all started being like, we got to think about where our food comes from. We got to think about miles and distance and climate and CO, you know what I mean? And all of that. And then there was like, to me, that seemed an emergence of people really investing themselves in thinking about what they're eating and where they're going. I mean, for sure, Instagram and social media, there's like an exponential growth of how that all happened. But I think that that moment, 2008, 2010, was when it became part of the public conversation, right? We started seeing food issues on the cover of magazines, which was a first, you know what I mean, in times. And I think that's when that started people's just attention towards it. Well, what inspired you to get into food? Well, I say, like people, people want to hear a story about me sitting at my mother's feet and all this drama, you know what I mean, all this beautiful. But at the same time, I'm the oldest female child in the Indian family. So there's no way I was escaping the kitchen, right? That's just a given. But after spending my youth with my mom and my aunties in the kitchen, I did not know how to cook Indian food. By the time I like left home, university, that sort of thing. That was the alchemy that they did. And I just went and asked them to cook for me when I wanted any of it. Then I went to live in India after university, before I could figure out my life. I was in the mountains going for walks and eating mangoes and feeling very happy with myself. But the people there who worked in the kitchen were like, what is going on? Who are you? What is happening? Do you know how to cook? TikTok? Who's going to marry you? I was 24 already getting stale on the shelf. And they were going to save me from a life of who knows what, you know? So they dragged me into the kitchen and I did their work that night, right? And I was rolling, I was kneading dough for chapatis. And I remember I was like, I was on my haunches, right? And they were like, they were surveying me like prospective mothers-in-law. You know what I mean? Whether I would be good enough for their sons. It was a whole trial moment. And in the midst of all of that, in this kitchen where I'm sitting cross-legged, barefoot on the floor, chopping vegetables, I fell deeply in love. I was like, wait, this could be a job. And so I sent a proclamation home to my parents that I was to be a chef. They were not interested at all. So I had to argue. I argued my point and here we are and everything is cool. But it was, I was like, oh wait, wait, I love this. Right? That's amazing. And I know you wanted to say something. I'll come back to you in a second. I just want to go to really quickly. What inspired you to get into food Marie? Well, I started dating a chef, so I feel like that could be its own segment. We could talk about that as a whole what to do, what not to do sort of situation. But for me, it was really about finding a sense of belonging. So culturally, I grew up in a Haitian household, we ate Haitian food and food was like a language. You know, the type of food we ate and that we cooked didn't exist anywhere outside my house. I grew up in Barrie. There's not really any Haitian restaurants in that area. Even Toronto, we just have a few here. There wasn't any Haitian food and grocery stores, right? So my home was like this little hub where I felt safe and I felt seen and understood. And then when I left my home, I kind of lost that. You know, I moved to Toronto. And at the time, there were no Haitian restaurants. And it culturally just kind of fell apart a little bit. And it was really meeting my partner, who's now my husband, by the way. There's a happy ending there. Meeting my partner and not only exploring food with him as a chef, because he was curious about Haitian food, but also I'm half Scottish and he's Scottish. And so understanding the other part of my heritage through food as well. We've worked together. We ran a catering company for 10 years, but we also have a pop up that we do as well, sort of a marriage of those two cultures. And it's a really fun way to explore the sense of self. Oh, it was just to Joshua's point about when food became cool. I think, yes, social media, and I think, yes, Michael Pollan, for sure. I think even before that, though, food TV had played such a big role in making food cool, in bringing food and kind of this celebrity chef culture. All of that, I think, was tremendously influential. And beyond just kind of bringing food and cooking to the masses, I think what food TV had a really big part in doing was prior to food TV, I think that cooking and food was very much viewed as being part of the kind of female, the kind of domestic world. And while that wasn't necessarily true in professional kitchens, there were a lot of men working in professional kitchens. I think that until food TV, until there were people like Bobby Flay and Emeril Lagasse on TV. Well, for sure. Yeah, making the food and making it look cool, like, you know, the bad boy like that, I think very much had to do with that moment. What about Nigella Lawson and Martha Stewart? Oh, for sure, Nigella, my goodness, right? I think she made it enticing because people were like, who is this woman, right? And the fact that at the end of the early days, the end of her show involved her tromping down to the fridge and just sticking her finger in something for a little... They formalized it a little bit more, which lost some of its charm, right? But the fact that she talked right into the camera with those bedroom eyes while making a salad, people didn't know what happened, right? People didn't know what happened to themselves. Well, what makes something delicious? I mean, it might sound like a really weird question to ask because I think we all have different preferences and different likes. But Joseph, to you, what makes something delicious? I really want to make sure that whatever my mother and my grandmother instilled in me in terms of cooking makes anything I do taste very good because I try to bring that mentality and that charm and that flavor into it. And I was always told that no matter what you cook and how you're feeling at that specific time, the person eating it will actually feel that. So if you're eating something rushed, if you're rushing in the kitchen and you're frustrated, your plate's going to look messy and it's not going to taste as good. Versus if you're just taking your time, putting a lot of love and attention into it, that dish is going to taste very delicious. It's going to taste like home. That's why your mother's and your grandmother's cooking will never taste like yours because they put that love and attention into that dish to nourish their children, right? And that's something that I try to do every day. And that's something I teach my son, that's something I teach my students, is if you're having a bad day, order up. It's so interesting what you said about what you put in the food is what it tastes like because I was born in East Africa and my auntie always said that if you're angry, if you don't want to do it, that's when the food will taste bitter or she might burn her tongue. She's like, were you angry doing this? I'm like, no, no, I wasn't. That's so interesting how different cultures have that kind of perception because I think we always think about the senses, right? Do the senses play any, do they play a role in how the food is? Yeah, a huge role. Back when we had Kokum, just not too far from here, we did just our pre-night service, just invited friends and family, people that helped us build the restaurant. And we two family members, both females, they were sitting at a table and then they had the dessert and then they just started crying while they're sitting there. And then our waiter, the waitress went up to them and said, is there something wrong with your dish? Like, no, no, this, the way that this creme brulee is presented and tastes, it tastes exactly the way my grandmother's house smelled, right? Because we infuse it with sweet grass. How beautiful that you had the chance to do that for them though, right? So I think that's what makes food delicious in my eyes is the memories that it can bring onto you when you're eating something. Absolutely. I've had a very similar experience, but when I first started dating my partner, he was like, yeah, I'm a chef. And I was like, okay, you're a chef. And I was thinking like, you're a chef, like you're friends in a band, right? Sure. Cool. Cool. Yeah. You're a chef. Like, great. And he picked me up from work. I used to work at a call center. So he's picking me up at like 1130 at night. I haven't eaten. And he is rummaging through my fridge and he's putting something together and he hands it to me and I'm like, okay, cool. And I'm just biting into it. And this is, this is in my fridge and this is delicious. And you're, you're like a chef, like a real chef. And he's just looking at me saying, of course I said, I was a chef. No, but you're really like a real chef. Like real. You're like go to the concert. I get it. Cool. Cool. I'll eat whatever you're making. But I think going back to the question, which was what makes things delicious. My grandmother always said like, things have good salt. So they have to be well-seasoned, well-seasoned food. You cannot have delicious food without well-seasoned food, whether it is salt or whatever else needs to go in there, but there needs to be some kind of, so no extra love. No, no, none of that. Like there's so many tech talks and so many social media where it's just a boiled piece of chicken breast. No love, right? No, no, no salt. People boasting about the fact that there's no salt in the cooking. I'm like, no salt means no love. I'm sorry. There needs to be some salt. What if you can't eat salt? I mean, there's other things you can do, but let's only do that in extreme circumstances. What makes things delicious to you? I mean, it's, it's such a big question, right? I think that the way that it's sometimes viewed in food media and portrayed on like food TV is that there is this idea that something is delicious and something is not delicious, like that there is some kind of standard for, for delicious food. You know, like biologically we know that sure, you know, babies prefer, we as humans want sugar. We want fat, you know, that, that is part of like our, our survival. Yes. So that is a biological fact, but I think beyond that, I mean, everything is just so, so, so personal, right? It has to do with what you ate growing up. It has to do with the culture that you come from, the households where you grew up, all of these different things to even like, even to the, to the, to the point where, you know, I, as a full grown woman now, I grew up in a McDonald's household, as in that was our family's choice when we were going, you know, to, from one lesson to the next, to go through a drive-through, we would go to McDonald's and we would have, you know, McDonald's hamburger and, and French fries. And so now as a grownup, like that to me still is like the standard for what tastes delicious. And those kinds of things, I think you just can't, they're just so personal and, and so deeply ingrained in all of us that it's just, you know, food and flavor perception, it's experience, it's, it's personal preference. It's all of, it's culture. It's whether or not we've traveled. It's all of those things. You're fishing for nostalgia. Well, last year, 2022, there was a lot of news in Toronto because the excitement was that Toronto would receive Michelin starred restaurants, right? And I think in total there was 13. Most of them were in like really fancy areas like Yorkville. I'm from Scarborough. I'm claiming Scarborough like I've been there for 40 years. I've been there for two years. But I was like, Scarborough has so much good food, but it was kind of like not really on the list. So do we still need something like a Michelin guide to say, okay, this is what's delicious. This is what people should aspire to, what chefs should aspire to. Joshna? No, no. I mean, great. I'm not that fussed about Michelin stars. I think it's great because I have colleagues who really are, right? And Canadian chefs that used to never be part of the dream. And now it is. And I think that's lovely for those who are chasing them. That's great. But really like none of this stuff tells you anything about how delicious the food is, in my opinion, right? In my opinion, because you can take, right, Joseph, you mentioned this, even the most humble ingredients, and it's the attitude and the approach that you take to put it together that works, right? That makes, that blooms something into deliciousness. What Michelin is like, it's like that whole sort of world of fine dining and the parade of plates and the, you know what I mean, the sort of the choreography and the performance of it all. But I don't know that that has, that there's any advantage or higher deliciousness happening in those restaurants and dining rooms than what could be happening in your grandmother's. But I mean, it's for us, like if you're outside of the food world, it's like, oh, if I can get a reservation at that Michelin starred restaurant, that's like, that's it. It's such a hit and miss. I've had some, I've had a couple of really disappointing meals at Michelin star, mostly feeling like I needed to stop for a burger on the way home after, right? Which is like, after that much money has left my wallet. Maybe you can smell the fries. Stop for a burger after it feels insane, right? But it's like, like, for me, like deliciousness, I was thinking about this. I think the one thing maybe we haven't talked about is how things are grown. We're going to get to that. Right. Right. And that, that organic and those flavors, really organic vegetables versus conventional ones have dramatic difference in flavor. But to this other point, I mean, and this is, I think where the magic of restaurants is to me, delicious food comes from somebody else's hands, right? That's mothers, grandmothers, that's dedicated cooks, people who care for you, right? There's something that happens. I think about this a lot with pasta. There's something glorious about being given a beautifully made plate of pasta that, oh, it is like somebody loves me. And this is a good scenario right now, you know? Well, Joseph, you know, you're a chef. Would you turn down a Michelin star? Honestly, yes, I would. Yeah. Just because the whole Michelin system is designed to attract new people to either that establishment or like the city of Toronto, right? To attract more people to come in. I already think that Toronto itself, before the Michelin system came in, was already a food destination versus because we're so multicultural here and especially in Vancouver too, who just got their Michelin system too as well. We're so multicultural that there's a lot of these great little restaurants out there like Scarborough. There's so many in Scarborough. In the strip malls, right? Yeah, in the strip malls. I would rather get, if there was a Michelin star restaurant next to a pupusa stand, I would go to the pupusa stand because I know that is actually made with love and attention versus a place that was just made to retain that one star or two star or three stars, right? And honestly, I don't technically want to be given a star and be recognized by a tire company. I wanted to kind of change gears a little bit. I lived in a refugee camp for a little bit and the meal that we had, I still crave and I still love going back to the nostalgia, which is just, it's called ugali. It's kind of like polenta, fufu, basically like flour and water. And then on special days, we had like tomatoes and onion put in the flour and it was just delicious. But then for protein, because we're in a camp, we would eat weevils, like weevil bugs. And for a lot of people, a lot of those reality shows, in order to make it to the next step, you must eat this insect. And there's a reaction. I mean, would I eat them now? To be honest with you, I'll probably be like, I don't know, maybe not. So I wanted to talk about our perception or misconceptions of food that are unconventionally, people get grossed out by. I got a bunch of things about this. I bring this up with my students a lot, because I'm teaching formally, but I also like used to teach kids classes at the farmer's market on Saturday mornings, right? So like nine to 12 year olds, and their parents would shop and the kids will come and hang out with me. And at the beginning of each class of the session, I had man and easel and I had the rules of the kitchen, no running, keep your finger out of your nose, all that kind of right. But at the end, it was like, we respect this space, we respect each other and we respect this food. And I had a very, very sharp line with them about the fact that I had no tolerance for anybody tasting something and making a face and running to spit it out and be like, that's disgusting. I was like, absolutely not. Because food means something to everybody. And you must respect it, even if you don't, you don't have to like it, but you have to engage with it. And you have to respect everything. You cannot look at something and snarling up your face. That's disrespectful. And it's just not tolerated here. And I, my grown students, I have the same policy with them, right? Because yes, then, but like, if you had to, you would eat those weevils again, you know, and you ate them because you had to. And it kept me alive. This is it, right? And let's be grateful to those creatures for existing and for that system to be there. So that you are here with us now, right? It's really, really, really important that we open up our thinking and not have and not relegate these things. Because the other side of it is like my, my tradition, lots of different animal parts. When meat eating happens, we go deep, right? There's a very serious meat-veg divide in Indian culture. But when you're eating meat, you're sucking bones. You know what I mean? And you're getting, and there's the notion that you have to, the chicken breast is only one part of this thing. Who's going to eat those feets? Who's going to, you know what I mean? We need to embrace the fact that eating potentially weird bits is actually more respectful, sustainable way to consume, particularly animals. You can't just eat the designer parts, right? The tenderloins, right, exactly. Exactly. We, our pop-up is called Voodoo Haggis, and we call it that because there are two parts of my culture that people have strong opinions towards but don't know anything about. And haggis is one of those things where people are like, ew, haggis. I was like, have you ever had a sausage? Like, yeah. I'm like, okay. You know that lining? That's intestinal lining. Like, oh, yeah. Haggis, you don't eat that part. We just carry it in that. And then you fry it up, you boil it, you do all the things to it. But I think people hear sheep stomach, and they're like, no, thank you. But they don't understand what process it is in that. And people don't really understand their food. People don't cook. They don't understand what goes into the food. They'd be floored if they knew half the stuff that went into the food that they ate. We're going to talk about that shortly. But Anne and Joseph, did you want to add anything before we wrap up our conversation? Yeah. I mean, I would be surprised if any of us at this table doesn't have that kind of cliched memory of being in the lunchroom at school or in cafeteria and taking something out of our lunch bag and having other people laugh at it or point at it or say, oh, that smells funny. I grew up eating chicken feet and cow stomach, and that was perfectly normal in my household. That feeling and those feelings of shame, I think they are in our bones now. I am happy to say that it feels like the younger generations, Gen Z, like on social media, it seems like the language is getting better at describing foods. I mean, the meme is, you know, don't yuck my yum. That's a very, very, very popular thing that the younger generations, I think they're a little bit more conscious of how to have those conversations in a more respectful way, and that gives me hope. But yeah, I think there's still a lot of work to do because even in mainstream media, we still see a lot of language that I think is kind of harmful and just not very thoughtful. Yeah. So I was very fortunate enough to grow up foraging and hunting for my own food, right? So versus if like, I know a lot of my students, they're international students, just like Joshua's students are very international. So they have a lot of curiosity of where our food comes from traditionally. So in my classes, I talk about going foraging, going hunting, using the whole animal, right? All the way from hoof to snout or butt to nose or whichever way you want to measure it, right? So, but I was very fortunate enough to have that in my life. And now that's something I'm teaching my son. And it's, I remember when we got our first moose together, me, my wife, and our son, we, for better lack of terms, we dressed it out there right, just right where we shot it. And, and he was, he wasn't phased by it or anything. He took it in. He absorbed all the information as much as possible. And let's just like, in my culture, especially where I come from, it's like, when you take your, your first, your first kill, it's, you have to, you drink a little bit of their, their blood, or you just stick your, your finger in their blood and just you taste it. But then it gives you that level of respect towards that animal's life that you just took to sustain yourself and your family. So in terms of that style of, of living, I don't want to say style, but traditionally that's what we did is like, is hunting and foraging is the way we sustain our size for a millennia. Now I get to teach that to my son and to my students. It's, it's very important to me and it's very important to my family. We do this moose hunt every single year around when my grandmother passed away, around Thanksgiving weekend, where we all go out for a week and the whole family's out there. We can come and go whenever we want. And we just, we, we share our harvest with whatever we have. I'm loving this conversation. We're actually going to talk a bit more about culture and we're going to talk about that tomorrow. So we'll continue our conversation on how food is a part of culture. Thank you so much. This has been a great way to start this week. Thank you so much. The Agenda in the Summer with Nam Kiwanuka is made possible through generous philanthropic contributions from viewers like you. 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