Dave Portnoy founded Barstool Sports and just completed the most impressive business transaction...

You have the most fervent haters of anyone I've ever met. Get the fuck out of the front of my business. We have fervent, fervent haters. They are quite devoted to it. You're all talk, dude. We have accumulated some people who don't like us. They're small, liberal larks. People have read all the articles that are mean about me. You're a fucking clown. They're all in on hating you. I run a business, work hard. I sold my business twice. 100 million, 400 million, bought it back for a buck. That's a clown? How does that work? So they paid, what, 600 million or something for your company? Hey, let's just give our stool sports back to Dick for free. Congratulations on one of the great business transactions of my lifetime. You're kind of similar. Were you an ardent, like, go Fox, go guy? My view on Fox hasn't really changed. Did you feel like at Fox you could say whatever you want? It looked like you guys were sticking it. It seems as if your microphone has gotten quite a bit larger. Have you been surprised by that? Do you care about the numbers? It's 100 million, it's 200 million, it's like. So imagine this as a business trajectory. You start a small business as a young man in your 20s. You make basically nothing. You work for 20 years. You build it into a much bigger business. Then a huge business comes in, buys it, hands you $100 million. You walk off into early retirement, sort of. And then they come back a year or two later and give you back your business for free. How do you do something like that? Dave Portnoy just did that with Barstool Sports, one of the great business stories in a bleak period. Joins us on our set to explain how we did that. Dave Portnoy, great to see you. Good to be here. How'd you do that? I think right place, right time. I probably owe all my haters, of which there are many, a thank you, a postcard maybe. We built the business. We have lots of fans. Over the course of 20 years, we've spoken our mind and accumulated some people who don't like us. We got sold. You have the most fervent haters of anyone I've ever met. We have fervent, fervent haters. They're all in on hating you. They are quite devoted to it. But we have lots of people love us. So we sold the company to Penn Entertainment, which is a gambling company regulated by the government. And what happened was the regulators, there are a few that do not care for me, some that, you know, more than others. And they're the types of people you'd expect not to like me. They're small, liberal arts. People have read all the articles that are mean about me. Well, they can make your life hell if you're in the- How many are there? So each state has probably four regulators. And I'd say we were legal in 12 or 13 states. I know Massachusetts, they hated my guts. We weren't licensed in New York. Even though you're a son of the Commonwealth? Even though I grew up there, started the business there, our roots are there. We were invested. They actually investigated Barstool Sports as part of getting a gambling license. They were investigating me. I don't know about what, and I don't know why. I actually watched the gambling hearings and a member of the board stopped in the hearings and said, I just want it on record. What you're doing to Barstool is so unfair, is so different than the way you've treated every single gambling company. I want it noted. It was that crazy, but there's no oversight. There's nothing. So, and these people were not elected. Not elected, appointed, with no oversight. Basically, there's nothing. A gambling regulator can say, do whatever they want. They can make up the rules, make up the laws. And what we saw with Penn over the course of three years is every time we took a couple of steps forward, we'd go backwards with the gambler. We had to explain every article, every hit piece, everything that's ever been said. We were on trial and we're the only ones on trial. It didn't matter what the backgrounds or the histories of the other gambling companies. So it became really difficult for us to succeed in this business when, for example, we weren't allowed to do college football game day shows. Like we, for years, would go to college campus before a football game and we'd do a college football show. It was called Barstool Sports Game Day. We weren't allowed to do that anymore because they said we were promoting the underage gambling. Everything we did was met with resistance. So it made it really hard for this Penn-Barstool relationship to prosper. And I think Penn got to the point where they said, we're not getting the results we wanted. And it wasn't, I don't think they thought, through our own fault, their fault. The relationship was much more difficult. We underestimated the regulators, how difficult they could make this in a regulated world. So they said, we're going to partner with ESPN. They had an opportunity. And I think it's a good thing for Penn. They still own a ton of stock. Once you go to ESPN, maybe you don't need Barstool. I ended up getting the company back for a buck. So that's why I say thank you. I don't understand. I mean, but how does that work? So they paid what, 600 million or something? Yeah, 600 million, that neighborhood. And the regulators make it impossible to make it profitable, which I totally understand. But then how do they get to the point where like, hey, let's just give it back to Dave Portman for free. Yeah, so we have a great relationship with Penn and we always did. So I do think they cared about the future of Barstool. But it's not only that, they just formed a huge relationship with ESPN, gigantic company. You have Barstool over here. We were supposed to be the media engine and we were losing money. We're in growth mode. Barstool was growth, growth, growth, growth, growth to try to build the funnel for gamblers. When I ran it myself, we made money. It was always making money. So the option I think that Penn probably was faced with, and I'm speaking for them to a degree is, all right, we got ESPN. Are we gonna continue to lose money with Barstool? Probably not. They would have optimized it and people who weren't making money probably would have lost their jobs. Unfortunately, I have a bigger heart than people give me credit for. I got these idiots at Barstool who had been with me for 15, 20 years. The same people. If they didn't work for me, I don't know why they got bad groceries. They're morons, Tucker. They are truly morons. They fit in our circus, in our moronic world. So I looked at it and Barstool was losing money. I said, I'll take it back. We're losing a bunch, so I gotta fix it. But I know I can save all our jobs and get us back on the profitability course. So it worked, I think, for Penn and it worked for us. How much are they losing right now? We lost about 10 million bucks last year. That seems like a lot. It is a lot. It's a ton, but I'm rich and I can fix it. So if I have to lose money or pay for it for a month or two, fine, but we'll get back to profitable. We'll have some layoffs, but we'll get back to profitability pretty quick. It's interesting. So you built it from a single newspaper into this big company. And then a big company takes it over. What did- Yep, twice. We actually sold it to Churn and Group 2016, the media group, and then we sold it again in 2021. Selling the same entree. Yeah. So good. But why were you able to run it profitably and they weren't? Because I think there's different goals. When Churn and bought it, their goal was always to sell it again. So you get revenue, revenue, revenue, revenue, and you're not really caring about the bottom line. They had money. That's not how I ran it. I was paying my bills, paying my employees, trying to buy houses. I'm not just going to waste money. We have things that we didn't have back then. I didn't have huge HR departments. I didn't have people doing pricings. We got bloated. And then when Penn bought it, they're a public company. So finance explodes because you got to do books, public, all that stuff, slash, slash, slash, slash. I don't care about any of that. I care about being funny and people doing their job. What do you mean finance exploded? So when we became owned by Penn, we needed our books. They're public now because it's a publicly traded company. So the process of going from a private company to public, our finance department, we hired a lot more people to make that work with what Penn needs. For compliance. Correct, exactly. So things that I never dreamed about as a private, not only on the financial books, but HR, like we have little, first thing I did when I got the company back, and some people got mad about it, we had these little business cards on the front desk. If you see something, say something. Feel free to narc. It was basically a narc. It had a little anonymous address to send to Penn Gaming, Penn Compliance. So like to rat out your co-workers for naughty thoughts or something? Yes, literally. So the first thing I did when I announced I took the company, I marched to the front, I took all the cards, I ripped them in half and threw them in the trash. If you have a problem, say it. Say it out in the open, but I don't like narcing private. So there's just a lot of things as a public company, to me, are wasteful spending. Well, and also just corrosive of the human spirit, like telling on people. A narc card, yeah, a narc card. You went to grade school in Massachusetts, right? Yep, Swamp Scott. In the 80s? Swamp Scott. In the 80s? Yep, oh, come on now, 80s. I'm old. Class of Swamp Scott Athletics are back alive, thanks to the class of 95. 95, nice. Nice, and congrats on resurrecting a Swamp Scott Athletics. If you narc'd on someone at Swamp Scott, like was that considered good or bad? Bad, that's bad everywhere. And by the way, my leadership style, I will scream at people, but they can scream back at me. Like, and we'll forget about it in five minutes. If you have issues, say it. You should know who has the issue, and you should fix it. By the way, they may be right. That's not saying that their issue isn't, you know, warranted, but don't squeal. Don't say it behind closed doors. Say it like two people, two grown adults. Figure it out. That's the environment I want. Yeah, say it like a man to my face, people used to say. Exactly. So when you were gone, and this big company was running your company, you had an employee who read rap lyrics out loud with forbidden words in them. Yes. They got fired. Correct, Ben Mintz. What was that? So Ben Mintz, he started a morning show, and to see Ben Mintz, he's a walking, bumbling idiot. I love him, but that's what he is. So he literally, I think he was reading because it was Monday or something, I forget the song, but he literally was reading the lyrics off a cue card. Read it, he said a lyric that he should have, you know, not said clearly, but his knee-jerk reaction, you can see it on the video, instant regret. Like, he was reading the song, reading the lyrics. The second he did the lyric, he kind of recoiled. He was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. That was his reaction. I don't think any person- But he didn't ad-lib, though, it was in the song. No, he was quite literally reading the lyrics. Okay, so, okay. And it was quite obvious, even in this time, white guy can't say those lyrics, we get that. But it was obvious he was reading them off. So it'd be like reading Huckleberry Finn, that's a naughty word in your ear. Right, and he realized it within a second. I think everybody who would watch that video with that clip, be like, that's an innocent mistake, no hate, well, Penn fired him. Was there an outcry? Was there an organized effort to get him fired? No, I think what happened was Penn was afraid, and this goes back to me a lot, the people who hate us so much, the New York Times is gonna write a piece about it, and they were gonna make this a big issue. That's what they were afraid of. Whether that's true or not, who knows? We talked to Jay, we talked to Penn, said we think it's a huge mistake. From his point of view, he was running a billion dollar business, which is what Penn is, and he's afraid of the regulators. That the regulators would say, you can't control Barstool's content. Look at this, this is an example, your license, yoink. And by the way, as crazy as that sounds, I think there's a possibility that some of these regulators could do that, because they're that delusional, that unfair. So that's why they got rid of Ben Mintz. That's unbelievable. So what happened to Ben Mintz? I mean, he lost his job. Ben Mintz lost his job. I had started at the time a watch company called Brick Watch, you said called Timepiece Company. Whatever it is, it's not, it wasn't. Well, all the watch fetishes called him Timepiece. Well, maybe I screwed up. Here it is, I'm wearing it. We didn't sell a ton of them. How much are they? They're not cheap at 2,400 bucks. For one? For one, we'll edit that for one part. So we hadn't hired anybody. And my first hire at Brick Watch was Ben Mintz to be the salesman for Brick Watch, which was great. So we hired- Unless you're Ben Mintz and you're like, shit, I was hosting this show and now I'm selling watches? I said, Ben, do exactly what you were doing before, except you do it for Brick Watch and that's it. We did hire him once I got the company back, we hired him back right away. So he's now- Now he's back at Barstool, yes. That was the first thing we did once I got the company. Good for you. Yes, yes. So, and that's how it should be. Listen- That man's gonna work for you for the rest of his life. For better, for worse, yes. And I consider myself a rational, logical person. You can tell when somebody is hateful and you can tell when somebody makes an honest mistake. There's too much in this country where outcry and outrage over clearly innocent, non-hateful stuff, and that's what Ben got caught up in. But you describe a scenario where there isn't really any outrage, there's manufactured outrage pushed by the media. Yes, 100%. Okay, so like your average person, no matter who he voted for, liberal, conservative, doesn't matter, it'd be like, yeah, he's reading rap lyrics, settle down. But reporters have this role in our country where it's like, no, I can destroy someone I'm going to. Stir the pot. I wouldn't have thought twice. I knew it was bad in the sense of, oh, this puts a ball on the tee for people who don't like us, and that is what I tell our people not to do. But never in a million years did I dream that Ben would have lost his job over that. It's just funny though, I mean, it's like you went into the media, I mean, it was a newspaper, Barstool was a newspaper, which you sold. And so you were a media guy from day one. Did you ever think that we'd get to a place, and so was I, by the way, where the media would have this weird role that's not to inform people, it's to kind of like enforce orthodoxy? No, and I've said this many times, as Barstool has progressed, my career has progressed, I wouldn't even say I was a media guy. I mean, I got in, I was trying to start a business and make money, enjoy my life. But I grew up in a household where the New York Times was gossip. My dad swore by the New York Times. If it's in the New York Times, it's true, there's no slant, that's the type of house that I grew up. And then we'd still have the conversations because he'd see what was happening with me. And it's not just the New York Times. I used to say it about Fox, everybody's coming at everything with an angle and you have to digest it and be aware, but it's very hard to get truthful information. I don't even know a lot of times where you go if you want a clean slant on something. Everything's so political, everything's got an agenda. I think the New York Times is as bad, worse than anybody out there. Did your dad ever change his view? Yeah, he's come around to it. He'd still, he may be more on a person-by-person basis on who is speaking. He has come around to a degree. How could you not, unless he'd hate my guts? The New York Times make it, or people like that, make it seem like, you know, I'm Hitler. Why? I don't know where that's- I've said this before, but I've talked to you a lot. I've never detected any real political set. You don't seem very political to me. I've never thought that. Definitely Trump. The rise of Trump, I think, has exasperated how people think in this country. He's broken a lot of people's brains. I was very pro-Trump when he started running, and a lot of it was because I thought he'd break the political system. Well, you were right. Correct. And he also broke a lot of people's minds. I then, while he was still in the White House, he invited me to come interview him. I'd never given an interview in my life. And I got a call Wednesday night, I think, or Tuesday night, and they said, hey, come to the Rose Garden. He wants you to interview him. Like, all right, I gotta do this. I talked to my dad, I talked to everybody, because I knew, I'm not an idiot, I knew the firestorm that can be surrounding if you look like, hey, you're pro-Trump. Doesn't matter what else you say the rest of your life, even your show, Tucker. I remember you had me on with talking about Colin Kaepernick and people crucified me. I actually said I thought Nike made the right move by going to Colin Kaepernick. I thought he'd sell a lot of sneakers. People don't listen to anything that's said. Oh, you went on Tucker? You must be this. You sat with Donald Trump? You must be this. People don't listen. I just made snap judgments. And now, my career, because, and even with you, I'm sure this isn't a surprise. I've had people say, you go on Fox News when you were on there, and you go on Tucker. What do you think? I did my research on you. I won't go, if I thought somebody was a bad guy, I wouldn't sit next to him, I wouldn't do an interview. People don't do that. And things can be said, twisted. If I read articles on me that are out there and did no back research and just took what they said at verbatim, I would think I'm a really bad guy. And I think some people may believe it, and some people don't do the research. So, it's a sad state of affairs, and they don't look at why this article's being written. No, that's right. You know, what, are they trying to make money off of it? Trying to sell pay-per-view? Like, what are they doing? Like, this insider made shit up about me. They just made it up. There's not .0001 truth of anything they've said about me. There's zero. I was there, I'm in the room, it's all false. Well, they're a sinking ship, they're run by a crook, they need to get subscriptions. Nobody looks at any of that stuff. Sinking ship run by a crook. Yes, literally. Quite literally, a guy who is banned, and I'm talking about Henry Blodgett, one of the great scumbags of our generation. The man was thrown off Wall Street for telling his clients to buy stocks while simultaneously there's emails of him saying they're terrible stocks. He's a crook. He runs this organization, he runs Business Insider. I have, and I tried to sue for it, because all I want to say, the reporters who wrote the article is about me. There's certain texts. If you have some texts, why don't you have all of them? Because I do. Why aren't they in there? Why don't you have all these exchanges? It's only stuff. I sued to get this stuff released. I just want to sit with a reporter, say, can you answer how you don't have the full story? I couldn't get it, and it's scary. The court said, you can't prove there's malice, meaning how do you prove that they're not lying? Like, it is truly, the burden of proof became on me to prove I'm innocent, not the reverse. So that, so last time we talked about this, you were kind of in the middle of it, and I thought that you would survive it. I didn't know that you would actually become richer and more famous. You would thrive in it, but now that the dust has settled, you're talking about this coordinated and highly aggressive attempt to make you sound like a rapist, honestly. Though they didn't even allege anything non-concentric. Because I'm as opposed to rape as anybody. As am I, and said many, many, many times. They really went after you in a coordinated, and again, I can't understand how aggressive it was. How did you, like, what are the lessons you learned about surviving that? I've said this a lot, it's always helpful when the truth is on your side. So I've always been truthful, I've always been myself. And I don't listen to PR, I don't listen to anybody. So when those- Why don't you listen to PR? Because PR is like everything else. It's trying to play a game, just be yourself, be honest. I have nothing to hide. I've never been fearful, well, the next shoe may drop, or they may sit, there's nothing out there. So what do I care? I've been honest to a fault. I've, embarrassing videos that have been leaked to me, I have everything. So PR will always try to play the game, how to make it go away, you know, say sorry, and things like that. I'm not sorry for anything, I didn't do anything wrong. So those allegations came out, and the next day I responded to them heads on with all this evidence that I have. But it is scary knowing that somebody can print all that stuff. And you know, at the time, like my girlfriend, she hadn't, I hadn't met her parents, and those articles are out there before I can meet. And still to this day, people will see me, and they're like, oh, he's a predator or whatever. And it sucks, but it is what it is. There's nothing I can do to change that. So what do you think, and again, you won in the end, Business Insider is probably not gonna be here in five years and you will be. But what about all those guys who in 2017, 18, at the height of the Me Too, and I'm sure some of them were bad and deserved it, some of them were not bad and didn't deserve it. You know, Andrew Cuomo, governor of New York, I don't like his politics, but they, they, he didn't do anything, and they took his job away. How do you think they feel now that the fever has passed? Yeah, it's tough, because I always will get people, because I think I am perceived as somebody who survived an attack and maybe died. Well, you did. Right, so I'll get people from all walks who will say, support me, or I've been through something, can you help me? It's so hard to say, because you don't know anybody's actual story, and you don't wanna belittle, you know, a victim's story if it's true. I have no idea. So I always say, for the people who got railroaded, because they didn't do anything, you gotta just stick up for yourself. You just gotta be loud, vocal, and out front, and don't let yourself be at the mercy of other people. But the number of people, of these men, who clearly weren't even alleged to have done anything, who got up there and said, well, you know, women really are oppressed, and I'm sorry as a man. Like, were they getting that? It was clearly not good advice. I think they were getting bad advice. The PR people, right? PR people. I've never tried, I don't mean to trash, we probably have a PR company on our own. Trash the PR people, because they deserve it. Marketing, PR, PR is spin, right? I mean, that's literally what it is. I don't spin, so if you like me, great. If you don't like me, great. I don't mind if people say he's a jerk, he's arrogant, he's short. I do have a very big problem when people say he's not honest. I'm honest, I tell the truth. I've told the truth for 20 years, and that also helped me, because I've been honest for 20 years. So we have people, women, men, whatever, like, listen, you may not like the guy, but he tells the truth. Every single time he says something, that's the truth. It ends up being the truth. So that helps, but yeah, don't let other people speak for you. I don't know what else to say. I think that's really wise, but they all do. I've had friends who got destroyed in this stuff, and they always take the advice. And I remember even, this is recalling a conversation, you gotta be willing to go to the mattress. So when this business insider stuff broke, I remember being on with Jay, the CEO of Penn, and I had a girlfriend, and one of the women that was mentioned, she was 19, I was like 38 at the time or whatever. And he's like, can you promise to the board you won't go out with a 19-year-old? I have no visions of going out with a 19-year-old. I'm like, well, that's legal. Like, it is legal in the United States to do that. I'm not going to agree to anything that every like United States citizen, I have no interest in doing it. Like, I learned so much about it. But just to be like, yes, to make something go away, you can't do that. Well, to have a company control your dating behavior does seem a little intrusive. Whatever you think of dating 19-year-olds, I mean, I'm opposed, but still, it's like- Correct, that's my point. And how can a company tell you who to date? And if you give, and I think this may be with the Ben Mintz stuff, if you give people who don't like you an inch, if you back up an inch, it's they're coming like, oh, we made them blink, and then they're coming, and they will never get off. So I, for better or for worse, will not give an inch. If I think I've screwed up, yeah, but not if I don't. And by the way, if they investigated every pro athlete in the country, their background, like they did me, like if you go out to a bar and you meet a 20-year-old and you're a 35-year-old athlete, they'd all be writing articles. Nothing, nothing happens. So you just can't give an inch. And you think it was Trump that did that? I think Trump is what sparked the hatred towards me. Like that changed the tenor of hatred in this country. And young men listen to you, and that's scary. Yeah, I think they saw me as like a voice. And by the way, people have listened to what I've said about Trump. I don't feel the same way I did about him when I said I would have voted the first time. People just don't listen to anything that is said. So you, basically, your position, and I think you're totally right, is that you've been able to survive under all these, under all this pressure and all these attacks because you don't flinch. Don't flinch and tell the truth. So Mike Tyson once said to me he had these tigers, and he lived with them, they lived on his bed, and they never attacked him because they knew he was a psycho and they could smell it. But he said that when he passed 50, his testosterone levels dropped, as they do, and he had to get rid of the tigers because they could smell the weakness. And when they can smell the weakness, they eat you. Is there a certain point you think we were gonna have to kind of give this up because you won't be able to sustain the unflinching posture? Maybe, I don't feel that way yet. The Penn deal certainly neutered me to a degree because I was afraid of the regulators, and it was the only time you could actually get to us. You called it gaming then. Gaming, gambling, what's the difference? I always feel like the people who are lobbying for the gambling industry call it gaming and the people who aren't call it gambling. I'll call it the same. To me, they're one and the same, so I wouldn't do that. But I've said to my enemies, ironically, having the Penn deal is the best part for them because I did have to watch what I would say. And I knew that going in, like I couldn't go directly after a regulator, politicians I was supposed to stay away from, don't get involved in politics because they control all the license. So now I can do whatever I want, I can say whatever. You must be psyched. It's good to have that feeling back, yes. Did you, I mean, you could retire. Did that occur to you? Not, it did before the deal was back on the table. But again, and I said earlier, I didn't want Barstool to just disappear. I felt comfortable as long as it was just Penn and Barstool, that Penn needs Barstool and Eric is their CEO and big cat Dan, that we had a good future and I could ride off to the sunset and be comfortable. Once ESPN came in, I was worried that could slowly spell the demise of Barstool. So I need to be there to make sure we're safe. Does ESPN have a future? I mean, they're so big. I think they do. I mean. But compare ESPN when you started Barstool, I mean, they just blotted out the sun, and now they don't. There's far more ways obviously to consume all sorts of, I mean, when I started Barstool, the internet, if you said we ran a blog, people would be, I don't know what that is. So it's definitely far more competitive and they've made some big changes. They cut a bunch of talent. They rights, as long as they have rights, people are gonna watch ESPN. How long till those rights go digital? But even with ESPN Plus, and they've made a move to try to get less political because that was becoming an issue with them. I don't know. I never know. I mean, people ask me, where will Barstool be in five years? It's like, well, I didn't know I was gonna have it back two weeks ago. I didn't know TikTok would exist a year and a half ago. I didn't know Facebook. Things change so fast. I think what's been good for Barstool, one of our abilities, we adapt quickly. Will ESPN be able to adapt quickly? That'll probably be the key to their survival. Although they get in the way. How much do you know about your audience at Barstool? Little. Little, huh? Little. I mean, I assume we range pretty like 18 to 40. We have men, we have women. That's a little thing that people don't understand. We've launched some of the biggest female stars in the internet age. Literally, like Jenna Marbles, first real female YouTube star. We have Call Her Daddy, which was Alex, and she signed for Spotify for 60 million. We have new girl, Brianna Chicken Fry. So we have stars. People sometimes think it's just men, but we actually skew both, men and women. Where is Brianna Chicken Fry from? She's from Massachusetts. A lot of chicken fries there? I think that is how she got her name. It was our handle before we had it, so she just liked chicken fries. Speaking of food, you are still in the pizza review business. Yes. So I don't think anyone's ever cornered the market in pizza reviews, but I mean, you are the most powerful figure in American pizza sales. I would agree with that. I Googled you, I was telling you this a minute before we went on. I never Googled anyone. I Googled you, and at least half the stories are, pizza shop in, name the town, Ostroville. Thrilled that Dave Portnoy came and ate their pizza. We can change the fortune of a pizza place with this spectacular review. Couple questions. Are you sick of it? Never. Really? Love pizza. The biggest pain in the ass with pizza is just driving around to find the new ones, but no, I love pizza. How do you stay slim? It's a great question. First of all, I'm starting to put on weight, so that's changing a little bit. I don't know. I think it was Adderall a little bit. Adderall diet. Adderall helps, doesn't it? Yeah, kills the appetite. How many, when you're on Adderall, how many pieces of pizza can you eat? Just a couple bites. It does kill the appetite. But when you're not on Adderall? I can house the whole thing, no problem. What's your favorite kind of pizza? So I like New Haven, like coal fired. Like New Haven, Connecticut is, to me, pizza capital, not only of the United States, of the world, but coal fired. Charcoal, crispy, you want to hear the crunch. That's my favorite. Thick or thin crust? Thin. Toppings? Cheese. No, cheese, that's how I eat. Well, I know. It's a gold medal slice. If I'm going off from- If it's off- Peppers, onions, mushrooms. Really? What about bacon and pineapple? That just made me old. It's a sincere question. Pineapple, right? No, not a fan. You got bacon and pineapple? No, not a fan. I think that's crazy. No, that's a big debate. Everyone asks that, pineapple on a pizza. I mean, I won't judge, but I wouldn't do it. Well, you're judging. A little bit. I am judging pizza. I'm saying pineapple on a pizza. Bacon, fine, pineapple, no. Okay, what about pepperoni? Yeah, that's the number one topping in the world. Better than sausage? I prefer pepperoni, yes. Were you on calzones? Love calzones. Really? Not too much dough for you? Nope. I used to work at a pizza place, and by the end, I was there for two years, and like, flies don't land on the inside of the calzone. That's true. So, 99%, and I've watched all your pizzas, I've done a pizza review with you. People are thrilled that you come to their house, okay? But occasionally, you get someone who's got something going on in his personal life or has a problem with you, and it doesn't go well. So, we're gonna put this up. This is outside Boston. What town is this in? Somerville, Davis Square. Somerville, Mass. Yep, Davis Square, Dragon Pizza. Okay, let's see what happens. I don't know how long it was sitting there. It looked, I'm gonna be honest, it looked better in the case. It looked more well done in the case than this one. So, we'll see what we got. One bite, everyone knows the rules. It is very thin. I do smell the Parmesan. Let's see what we got. Oh, it's a floppy mess. Strong Parmesan, this is an acquired taste. Like if you get this, know you're gonna get hit with a left, right, and a face with Parmesan. I'm not the biggest Parm guy. How do you score that? Because if you like Parm, fine. If you don't, I don't, six, four. Dave. Yes. Enjoy your pizza as any customer, but I don't appreciate what you do coming in and judging a business with one bite. Well, we do more. Is this your spot? This is my spot. I hope you enjoy your pizza, but I don't appreciate what you do to small businesses. Well, I help. The good news is I didn't do it. I don't see it that way. Terrible school. Let me be a little clearer. Move on. Don't stand in front of my business. Let me be clear. Fuck you. Let me be clear. Get the fuck out of front of my business. Fuck you. It's a public street, you motherfucker. Yeah, but this is my business. It's a public street. This ain't your business. Yeah, but this is my business. Fuck you. If you stay here, I'm calling the fucking police. He's right across the street. Go get him. What are you gonna tattle me off for standing on a public street? Just being a fucking bitch. Your shirt's six sizes too small, fasto. Just go fuck yourself and the whole fucking platform you're on. Oh, you don't like the platform? You're a joke to me, dude. You know what? You're making a joke. Take your fucking show and your fucking game and go somewhere else. Blah, blah, blah. By the way, I've raised $50 million for small business. You're all talk, dude. 50 million? Was that all talk? Yeah, kind of like that New York Times article. Here we go. Your shirt's six sizes too small. I don't care. I will tell you. You're a fucking joke. Oh, you work hard? Yeah, maybe. My man. You're so full of shit, dude. How? Tell me how. How? I run a business. I work hard. I sold my business twice. 100 million, 400 million, bought it back for a buck. That's a clown? Everything since I got in this business that you represent is an embarrassment to this business. Like what? Like raising 50 million for small business? Everything. Name it. Everything. You haven't named one thing. I make pizza. It's great. It sucks, actually. You're a fucking joke. Name one thing. Name one thing, asshole. You've given up too, I've given up too much of my time. All you've said is everything, everything. Name one thing. You're a fucking joke to me. Name one thing. Clown. That'll be the most viral pizza review we've ever had. It just happened two weeks ago. We haven't published it. How's this fuck you? Yeah, divine timing. And this is where sometimes I get myself maybe in trouble by being like, when you throw the first punch, I want to bury you. So I knew I was coming on this show and I knew your crowd, like my crowd, would be like, fuck that guy. So I was so excited for the timing because that guy went out of his way to pick a fight with me and he knows nothing about me, clearly. His one complaint, I'm bad for small business. Even my most ardent haters have never said, I'm bad for small business. It's the only thing they'll begrudgingly be like, well, he just did it because he wants everyone to say good job or he has a big ego. But nobody's ever been like, you're bad for small business. That guy is what is wrong. And this may be over the top, but he's what's wrong with this country. Like, fine, I don't care what your politics are, clearly that guy is like, hates Trump, hates everything. But why do you hate me? You don't know anything about me. You come out yelling. Because his wife hates him. Yeah, yelling, yelling, yelling. I would sit down and have a conversation. This is what we've become, honestly, in this country. It's just, you scream at each other for no reason. Like that guy just came out, had no business in anything except yelling, screaming. He's all over his Instagram page. He's been doing it since this happened. Be like, I told him, I kicked him off the sidewalk. I kicked him off the street. He's calling for the cops. I guarantee you- Because you're eating pizza on the sidewalk. Yes, and I guarantee you that guy was wanting to abolish the police about six months ago. I guarantee you he's like, we don't need police and all of this. And then he's running like, I'm gonna call the cops. By the way, cop across the street, I said hello to. He's like, Prez, big fan. I was dying for him to go ask. But that guy is truly what's wrong with everything in this country. Do you think he took mask mandates seriously? Oh, 100%, 100%. And by the way, I love Star Wars. So that shirt was just 10 sizes too small. He is everything that is so wrong. And people just, there's no matter what, he's gonna hate everybody he perceives different. How often does that happen to you? Almost never. That has never happened like that. But I mean, just in the course of your life, you're taking your girl to dinner. Rare, I had one girl during a pizza review who screamed at me. She's like, she read all the articles. By the way, I don't wanna give my enemies playbook. We've talked about, there's been a lot of mean things said about me. So when I asked, what do you hate about me? You should have one thing that's actually legitimate as opposed to the New York Times, a small business. It doesn't happen often. Most people in public are normal and nice. Like, hey, like you. And even if you don't like me, I'm fine with it. But to attack, it's just, I hate that guy. And how was the pizza? Thankfully, I gave it one of my lowest scores I've given in a while. But if you saw how I did it, even when I give a low score, I try to be nice about it. It's like, maybe you don't like Parm. Maybe this isn't your thing. Cause I don't wanna ruin any small business. Now I hope his business is ruined. And that may be a mean thing to say because you should never root against somebody. I truly hope he goes out of business. Like, I'd be happy about that. Again, maybe that's too far. But when you come at me like that and you are right, he's drawing pictures of me being like, this guy's an asshole. And I showed him and I gave him the business. I hope not enough bad things can happen to that person. It's interesting though, guys like that. And this kind of thing has happened to me, I'll be honest, in public over the years. I've seen one. Yeah, right, exactly. But it's always when you leave that they're like, I showed him. Yeah, that's what he was doing. You fussy little bitch. You know, once you're gone, they're like bragging about it on social media. And his recollection of the event. Once people see the video, I'm curious even whether the people who are like defending him because he does have his crowd being like, you showed him he's the worst. I'm curious if they watch that video. Really? And are like, well, you were kind of an asshole to him. He wasn't doing anything because I wasn't. Did you pay for the pizza? Of course. So you were a customer. I walked in, I was doing the review out on the street. He kicked me off the sidewalk. What are you talking about, buddy? And what are you talking? We're doing a pizza festival in Coney Island in September 23rd. It's the greatest assembly of pizza ever. Because pizza has been under attack, you know, for a while. Because it does, for most non-Adderall users, does make you a little fat. I've lived it. You only live once, though. Well, that's my rationale. But you are one of this country's most energetic and best recognized pizza defenders, advocates. You'd think the whole pizza industry would be carrying you aloft in a ticket tape parade. That is how we're able to do the pizza fest. All these great pizzerias who would never do this. They're like, you know what? For what Dave's done for the pizza industry, we're gonna come support him. Except this one clown who doesn't deserve the same air to breathe that I do. What a jerk. Why not try to get along, even if you have that big of an issue with me? Come up and talk about it. Like, maybe you won't have the issues when we're done. Instead of just coming out screaming and being a- Can I just say one thing I noticed? This makes me sad, I probably shouldn't even say it, but that's one of the only pizza owners I've met, including the one I worked for, who was American born. Every pizza guy I've ever met is like some immigrant who loves America. You know what I mean? It's just like working like an animal and has the same values that I admire. That guy was like from Newton, Mass or something. I still don't know what he was that mad about because I asked him 10 times what your problem is with me. He just kept saying everything, everything, everything. How can you hate somebody that much that you don't have an example of why you hate him? He's pretty riled up. It was like he was waiting for this moment. And I asked again, well, what do you hate? Give me an example. You're a joke. You hate small business. Well, I raised 50 million for small business. You're still a clown. Like, all right, well, you're the clown. Dave Portnoy. Great timing. That was God being like, here you go, Dave. Here's a little one. You've got a lot of, in exchange for Business Insider, you've gotten a lot out of it. Well, Godspeed, congratulations on one of the great business transactions of my lifetime. Thank you. What about yours? I mean, you're kind of similar. Now, let me ask you this, before the Fox unwind. You mean I got fired? Yes. Like, were you a ardent, like, go Fox, go guy? My view on Fox hasn't really changed. They let me say whatever I want, whatever I want, really, for 14 years. And I'll never stop being grateful for that. And then, obviously, I said too much. And I'm not exactly sure what I said that was bad. No one ever told me. But one day they're like, oh, can't have this anymore. And they fired me. And I even told them as they were firing me, like, you're business. I made a pencil up, never work for anyone else again. And I never will. But I can't be mad about it. I mean, they were great to me. The Murdochs were always nice to me. And one day, for whatever reason, they'd had enough. So I wasn't, my feelings weren't hurt. I was not expecting it. So were you, like, for me, when I was with Penn, I knew there were things, it's like, oh, I can't go there. They made that clear. Did you feel like at Fox you could say whatever you want? Well, there was always internal, I mean, the Murdochs were always nice. They never got in my way at all. They were always super nice to me. But there were, you know, small, it's a company run by fearful women. Yeah. You know what I mean? And there were always, like, second tier people who were hassling my producers. But no one ever called me. I got along with everybody, but I mean, I think they knew, like, the censorship is, it's not, like, I'm not, don't welcome that. You know, so, but they never actually got in the way of anything. Our view on the war in Ukraine was really, really hated. I could feel it. And my view was not pro-Russia, never has been pro-Russia. Just like, this is not our fight. It's not good for us. We should just put an end to the war, because people die in war. I've seen it. And just saying that was considered, like, crazy pro-Kremlin propaganda. They were very mad about that. But to their credit, they never said anything to me about it directly. I could just smell it. And so I really just don't have any complaints. And I will say, and I know that you've experienced this, you know it's true, being humiliated in public, being fired, I have been a couple of times, totally good for you in the end, because it keeps you from thinking you're Jesus, or, like, getting, like, super crazy hubris guy, you know? I would think with you, it would have increased. So we spoke, I don't know, last time I was there, and you may correct me if I'm wrong, I never really struck you as a huge technology guy. You were, like, even today, you're like, I Googled for the first time. So now you go to Twitter. I'm in technology. Right, which is now- I think electricity, actually, that's how I feel about it. So you talk on X and all that stuff. Have you been surprised? It seems as if your microphone has gotten quite a bit larger. Yes. Have you been surprised by that? No, I've been grateful for it. I mean, we, like, within hours of getting the boot, thankfully they fired my executive producer, Justin Wells, like, within four minutes of firing me. And he really didn't do anything wrong. He was the best producer in all of television, and everyone knew it. And Fox has a lot of nice people, a lot of very incompetent people, obviously, running it. And he was one of the only competent people in the whole business, but they fired him too. And within, I don't know, an hour of that happening, Elon called him and said, you should come to Twitter. So I'll never stop being grateful for that. We don't work for Elon or anything, but we're using the site like everyone else uses it, which is as a platform that's not censored. And I'm super grateful for that. I do think the downside to social media is you can get involved in, like, people's responses too much. No, that's soul death. It's so- So you just ignore it all? Oh, I really try to. Because they were talking about you just as much when you're on Fox. Oh, I never looked at anything. I never read, I mean, I know who I am. For all of my many faults, I know who I am. And I don't need other people to tell me who I am. And I don't, like, if my wife has views or my children have views or my college roommates have a view, I'll listen and pay attention. But someone I never met, I don't give a shit. Do you care about the numbers? Like with the Trump thing that you just did. Like, awesome, my guy, he's like, it's 100 million, it's 200 million. It's like numbers that are beyond compare that you really couldn't see in Fox. Do you care at all about, like, what do you look like? Holy shit. I mean, we're starting out, so like, you wanna, you know, you wanna just, you wanna show a force and like, we're still here and like, you know, whatever. Paul Ryan didn't like me, but you can't make me shut up. So I think it does send a message that I think is good, not just for me, but for the country. But no, I'm not a numbers person at all. And like, I never was on our Fox email ratings list, ever. Not one time. Ask anybody who worked with me. And I didn't know how to read a ratings chart. I never looked at our ratings. I would say to my producer once a month, how we doing? Still number one. Like, I don't look at that stuff because I don't wanna be self-aware because self-awareness leads to self-obsession, which leads to narcissism and misery. So just stay away from yourself. We think about ourselves enough, don't you think? I'm a numbers guy. No, but you run a business. So I don't, you know what I mean? Like, I couldn't run a business. If I ran a business, we'd be broke the first day. It'd be tough to go broke with those numbers. No, but I'm just saying, like, I would manage to blow it all. And, or just, that's not my gift. I talk, don't do business. So that Trump- Is your dad a business guy? He fancies himself one, but I would not say he's one. He fancies himself one, but no, not really. He was an attorney. His attorney was attorney, but no, not really business. I'm more in business. Yeah, yeah, clearly you have a gift for it. I just don't. Yeah, I mean, I'm fascinated on that, the whole you to Twitter thing. On the business side, forget what you're saying, what it's doing, all of it, like- Well, the business side's super interesting, but I really try and think only of the story and of what is the lie that we wanna combat? What is the thing you're not allowed to say that you have to say and you're gonna say? And also I'm 54 and my kids are grown, so I don't really give a shit, actually. What are you gonna do to me? Like, to me, the Trump interview seemed like something, it looked like you guys were sticking it to Fox. Well, I would never wanna stick it to Fox, you know? But, you know, Trump called it. No, I'm not mad at Fox, I'm really not. But the timing of it. Well, it was the night of the debate, but the reason that it was is because he didn't wanna do the debate. I didn't make that decision. So he approached you to do it? He approached us and said, you know, I'm not gonna do the debate. But if I'm being totally honest, I didn't really believe him because it's Trump. Like, he changes his mind, he's volatile. Maybe he decides this is a spectacle I can't pass up. We didn't know. I mean, we were actually traveling back from Europe day and Justin and I, my producer and I, were on separate planes but we were texting from plane to plane like, do you really think he's not gonna do the debate? No, we didn't know, you know? So anyway, no, we weren't trying to attack Fox. Well, he may have been. Well, he doesn't like Fox. Right, I know. But they don't like him, you know, and they never did. And they always had rules about not allowing him on. And my view was, I think it's totally legitimate to dislike Donald Trump. I don't hold that against anybody. It's totally fair to have any view you want on American politics. But the guy is the dominant figure in American politics and certainly dominant figure in the Republican Party and you're a news organization. So if you've got a rule, just because the owner doesn't like him, you can't have him on the air. You're not really covering the news at that point, are you? What are you doing? You're lying, actually. And that makes it no different than any of the other networks. That's exactly right. Bobby Kennedy, who I happen to love, not everyone does, but that's my view of him, they won't allow him on CNN or MSNBC. Can't go because they don't want viewers to hear what he has to say. Well, I just look down on that, don't you? 100%. 100%! You gotta be able to make your decision. Like I thought Trump should've done, I thought he should've done the debate. Yeah. Like to me, if you're voting on the president, you wanna hear him debate. He's brilliant. He's the best to ever play the political game. So to become president, I think it was the right move not to do it. For the betterment of the country, I think you should be on the debate. I kind of agree. I like the debates, personally. I mean, how else is people gonna decide? The problem is that the news companies that host the debates are so rotten and corrupt and everybody knows it. The whole thing's rotten. The whole thing is rotten and corrupt. Is Biden gonna be the nominee? I don't know. I'm not a political person, but I feel like there's been a shift where internally, maybe the Democrats don't think he can win and they're setting the stage to do somebody else. I think it's crazy if he's, I mean, to be honest, I think both Trump and Biden are too old. I don't think he should be able to be that old and be president. But I think Trump certainly seems- I agree 100%. I mean, I think Biden has got some serious dementia issues. Like how that is the president, I don't know. And that's not a Democrat because I said about both. Mitch, the guy who had the stroke doing the speech the other day. Mitch McConnell. Yeah, like how are these people running our country? You wouldn't put these people in control of our CEO. I would say McConnell's, the only defense I would say of Mitch McConnell is McConnell post-stroke is an improvement over McConnell pre-stroke. Fair enough, fair enough, fair enough, fair enough. There's no companies in the world where I would buy stock, where you're having the CEO seemingly at that advance. It's just only in politics. It's crazy. Yeah, it's because it's only the world. Yeah. Not a big deal. Not a big deal at all. It's broken. Dave Portnoy, great to see you.