Actor and activist Sean Penn | "Person to Person" with Norah O'Donnell

Hi, I'm Nora O'Donnell, and this is Person to Person. Our guest today is Sean Penn. Oh, I hear some tasty waves, cool buzz, and I'm fine. Sean Penn was just 21 years old in his breakout role in Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Wait a minute, there's no birthday party for you here. More than four decades and two Academy Awards later, he's spending his time in a different role, activist. Penn has done it all in Hollywood, acting in, producing, and directing countless major motion pictures, hits like Dead Man Walking and Mystic River. His relationship with Hollywood is complicated, and his marriages to Madonna and Robin Wright often in the tabloids. But it's his work outside Hollywood making headlines in recent years, from organizing relief efforts in Haiti following the earthquake, to meetings with controversial figures like Fidel Castro and the drug lord known as El Chapo. Recently, the star was in Ukraine as the first bombs fell during Russia's invasion. Originally there for a documentary on the Ukrainian comedian-turned-president, Penn and his team followed the story, taking an up-close look at a bloody war in the newly released Superpower. So we sat down with Penn for an intimate, person-to-person conversation. Sean Penn, welcome to Person to Person. Thank you. Let's start at the beginning. How did you end up in Ukraine at the start of the Russian invasion? My co-producer on this, Billy Smith, and I had false-started a few documentaries in the past, and this one was going to be the light-hearted story of a comedic actor-turned-president. So you were interested in Volodymyr Zelensky even before the Russian invasion? That's all it was, yeah. And I thought that we would sort of discover Ukraine through that story. And then, by the time we were able to go over there, it was November 2021. The buildup was beginning. The drums were distant, and seemingly unlikely at that time to most of us. He wasn't able to meet with us, because he had stuff he was dealing with. So we went to Mariupol, went to the front line there, because a lot of people understand that that border conflict had been going on since 2014. We took in cultural conversations and met with some political people around that time. By the time we were able to go back, of course, things had escalated quite a bit. So we went. I think we were nearing the end of our week, and that's when it all started to explode. And the missiles were coming in. Rockets were coming in. And then, very surprisingly, the president's office called, and he was going to honor the preset first meeting on camera. And so we spent some of that first day with the president, the first day of the invasion, with President Zelensky. And the documentary sort of wrote itself from there. It's pretty incredible to be there at that very moment, and then to get access to President Zelensky as we were covering the news, and pictures of you emerged with Zelensky. We all sort of said as journalists, what's Sean Penn doing there? Yes, so did I. You know, still processing it, because I think I describe it in the movie as, you know, extreme history. It's surreal. It's heartbreaking. That was something I felt not only for Ukraine, but for what it would mean to the world. And what was your sense of Zelensky at that moment, this comedian turned politician turned war president? You saw it on day one. Overnight, he became a wartime president against a nuclear superpower. And it was an overwhelming sense of the courage that's now been talked about and demonstrated by him. It wasn't anything that I'd ever seen, you know, with that kind of scope in one person's eyes before. And it was true with almost all of the Ukrainians that we saw in that moment. Why is the documentary called Superpower? We thought we knew which one was the superpower. And we're finding that, you know, superpower comes from a deeply human place and not an atomic place. The intrinsic search for freedom. Yeah. And independence. We sometimes think of freedom as a luxury. But I think what they're proving is that it's a human need. And so, of course, it's going to rise up eventually and demand itself. What were some of the lightbulb moments for you, like, I didn't know this, or this explains so much, or spells out what's happening in historical terms? I think the best way to answer this, you know, in some ways, because the thing that you said before is something I've—even in other circumstances, what the hell is Sean Penn doing there? And for the most part, whenever I've traveled to some place of particular conflict or disaster I've always been very aware that if there was a camera within a hundred miles of me, the assumption is, oh, he's there to take pictures of himself with a crying baby. And so I've been mostly pretty allergic to it. And I was convinced by others, but also it had seemed, you know, I'm in my 60s now, and I thought, you know, maybe I should just show that this is not about some know-it-all or someone who wants to presume to be. This is an experience of deep curiosity and privilege. The privilege I have to be able—I've been lucky in life financially enough that I can travel when I want to, and so on. You know, I've got a backpack, you can jump in, and let's go see what it is, just feel what this is, and talk to people who understand it, and then let the audience—I don't even want to say form their own opinion. I mean, I'm not without my opinions. People are clear about that. And I think the movie has its own opinion, of course, but I don't think that's the only way to watch it. I think there's still a context that's just factual. You were warned that week to get out, and you stayed in Ukraine. And then in the documentary, too, you show trying to get out, after you've done the interview and been there, trying to get out. And the cars, and you were there among the exodus, mostly women and children. We saw that when we were in Poland. My impression, too, was just about the strength of these women and what they were leaving behind. Men who stayed to fight, and then they had nowhere to go. They had a suitcase with them, with no sense of when this would end. Yeah. No, this is a—you know, whatever this word means, this is a heroic population, cross-gender. But during that kind of exodus, in the beginning, the invasion, and all of those, like you said, mostly women and children getting across the border, on the miles that we walked, because we just ditched our car, getting a car through was going to take forever. And then the idea that they're going to completely uncertain futures, in many cases, throughout Europe and other parts of the world. And husbands and fathers, you know, all left behind to, if not be in the fight, being available to be in support of the fight. So how many times have you been now to Ukraine? This last week was my eighth trip. Eighth time. And a lot has changed in all of those visits. A massive commitment of American financial aid and military aid. Yeah. European financial and military aid. Do you think that Ukraine will ultimately win this war? There's not a cell in my body that sees anything other than that. You know, there's a part of me that's very frustrated, very angry. About what? About friends of mine who are dead, who I don't think would be dead, if we had done what we are doing in these drips and dribbles. Of course, we all understand that nobody wants a nuclear conflict. We have failed the American aspiration. We have failed it so far. And with all that we have done cumulatively to date, all of which we were told would have escalated into a nuclear conflict. Nuclear hasn't happened. A NATO country has not been attacked. Very unlikely either would. And in the meantime, I think we are very compromised at the moment. Are you suggesting that we should have American troops on the ground in Ukraine? Absolutely not. And the Ukrainians have no interest in that happening. So what more could we do? We're giving them so much. That 16th should have come on day one. The cost of this war is increasing for us every day we don't do that long term. In terms of the global economy, I have sat with people so much smarter than me on every aspect of this conversation. And yet, I think somewhere in ourselves, we do know that if we just close our eyes and do the math, this is going to cost us a lot more if we don't take care of it now. Not only in terms of money and human life, but in terms of how we identify ourselves in a way that allows for a proud and happy culture here and a respected one abroad. I know you follow closely what happens here in Washington. And there is a growing Republican base that says stop funding for Ukraine. Interest in the war domestically has fallen off. Is Vladimir Putin just waiting out the American public and congressional support? Well, I think yes is one of the answers. And it also, it's really time that the American people, we, I, all of us in our whatever way, do our part to partner with and support and demand that leadership does its. I really want this film, despite whatever I might represent to some people, to get to this country, to get to Republicans and Democrats, because I do think that there's not only, most importantly, the principled win, but I believe there's a real political win and a decisive commitment to Ukraine immediately. And whoever owns that moment will own what I think is probably the endgame of this war, which is the internal fracturing of Russia on its own. I think in the war of attrition. And that's what Putin's worried about. He should be. You've met Vladimir Putin. Yeah. And in the documentary, you mentioned that in 2001, that you and Jack Nicholson went to the Moscow Film Festival, and you said that night has become a deviant memory. And then the documentary moves on. So what do you mean by that? Full disclosure, you know, I met him. Yes, I met him in the social atmosphere of the Moscow Film Festival. And I was able to have some chat time with him, not about anything of substance. And I can't tell you that I have a kind of diary of a real deep impression. It wasn't long after President Bush had met him and talked about looking into his eyes and trusting him. Seeing his soul. I found it interesting. At the time, I don't find him interesting anymore, in fact. I find him really an overrated mind and very tedious. Part of the problem I think he has with understanding this dynamic is that he has a very unsophisticated sense of human nature. But when I look at it now, when I think about it now, it's wanting to take a hot shower. It's not something that I, you know— Meaning after—because you called it a deviant memory. It's just an—it's an interesting adjective. It's to me what one would probably have felt if they met somebody who turned out to be Hitler later. It's been written that the best way to define evil is the absence of good. And the absence of good is not very interesting. And then when it becomes violence on this level—and this is somebody who is leading the rape and murder of women and children and doing incredibly lasting environmental damage that's going to affect us all. This is really venal, creepy stuff. What did you think when you met many of these Ukrainian soldiers, men and women? You talked to them in the film. It's very emotional to me. There's something, you know, in the film. There's someone who became a friend, you know, and I would talk to him sometimes. And you know, a couple of weeks ago, he's gone. And I saw his mother last week. And when I'm talking about him, I'm talking about the general character of the Ukrainian people. And she said, you know, he wasn't a military man. And she was really describing his fiber. There's something so—more like a poet, gentle, humble, clear, professional. I think the whole experience has been inspiring. That culture is taken by a moment sort of like, I suppose, what happened in Liverpool with the Beatles, you know? It's all of human history coming together and creating something that we should all embrace while it's here and take the opportunity to partner with completely. On the question of your career, too, I mean, Oscars for Mystic River and Milk. You gave one of your Oscars to Zelensky? Well, you know, I am very angry with the leadership of the Motion Picture Academy, because they had an opportunity to have this extraordinary filmmaker and actor, who happens to be the president, leading the most unambiguous war of freedom in defense of freedom in our lifetime. And so, I was ready not to look at those trophies for a while. I thought, oh, maybe it'll be a sort of a symbolic gesture. And I threw them in my backpack, and two was a little heavy, because I prefer to travel without checking luggage. So, yeah, I gave him one. So which one does he have? If I say, then either that's the important one to me, to people, or it's the other way around and somebody gets offended. I think I've convinced myself not to know which one he has. And was there a promise made when you gave him that Oscar? He said, oh, this is yours, and you can bring it back to me when the war is over. And he said, yeah, he'll do that. Can we be there for that when he does? Sure. Listen, I'm going to be dancing along with the rest of the world when that happens. So sure, I won't even know the camera's there. And when we come back, we'll talk to Sean Penn about his activism. We're back with Sean Penn. What do you like better, being an actor or an activist? Well, I think my own experience with that is that it's the same thing. You know, in school, they had the different little flaps for your notebook of which subject it was. The dividers? Yeah. And I had to get out of school to pull the dividers out and do well with the dividers. Without the dividers, I find this ride, life, really interesting. I remember when I first got involved in Haiti, we were very good at disaster relief. I had to fire myself when it got to development and get somebody qualified. But it's very like, I've described it a lot as very like producing a movie or directing a movie where the set has to be done yesterday. The stakes are higher, but the job's the same. Problem solving, that sort of thing. After Haiti, you created an organization called CORE. Describe what it does. What had started as a group of American, some Canadian volunteers, quickly became and remains a complete Haitian organization in Haiti. I had thought originally that, you know, we're never going to get all of what we need to do here done. Of course, Haiti's in a terrible situation today. But our programs continue to the degree that, you know, those problems allow. I was convinced to kind of, not internationalize originally, but there were so many problems here. So we wanted to try to work with those people in advance to build response teams and make those relationships good ones to begin with. And so that became community organized relief effort CORE. And we work in shelter and hygiene. We're in Ukraine. The other part of my world there is CORE. So we're in Ukraine and Romania and Poland. A lot of work with refugees and IDPs and reconstruction, rubble removal, a lot of different things, depending upon what the gap is that we identify that we can help with in whatever the circumstances are. Right. Sean Penn, thank you. When we come back, we'll talk more with Sean Penn about his travels around the world and his meetings with other leaders. And we're back with Sean Penn. I have to also ask you about because I think it was like seven years ago that you interviewed El Chapo. Looking back on that, are you glad you interviewed him? See, it's a good chance to correct the record. I never claimed to interview him. What I did do is I went down and met with him to see if he would allow me to embed for about a week and to interview him. It wasn't going to happen. I wrote an article and I wanted still to have him answer some questions. And the publisher that I was writing for demanded that he do it on videotape so that it could be clear it was him. So I had an intermediary. When I wasn't there with him, the only way was through somebody else who was sending messages and sent along the questions with the idea being that he and one of his people with one of their cameras would record the answers. And they were very selective about what they recorded. And I reported it that way and wrote it that way. And it became that I had done an interview. Had I done an interview, all of my questions would have been answered or not. But they would have certainly been asked and commented on what happened. But I published the part of it, or I put in as-if transcript of the videotape that was released, that he did, in the framing of the article, that it was what it was, which was not an interview. He's now locked up in a maximum security prison in Colorado. Have you reached out to him since? No. I've thought about—I don't know if I would get approval to do a piece with him. I mean, I think he's certainly where he should be right now. Look, whether we're talking about Vladimir Putin or El Chapo, this is something that is a big reach to understand how someone can be so detached from the humanity that's brutalized. I mean, you've—in addition to your acting career, you've interviewed, spent time with so many leaders and people around the world. What's next? Well, right now, the thing I want to do is, as much as possible, try to share this film. The American audience, I think, I can say fairly is the principal target audience. So I think that's what's next, is to try to fulfill that. And then, you know, I've always taken a—you see certain things on the side that catch your eye, and you make a note, maybe I'll go revisit that thing. What are some of those things? Do you want to tell me? No, because I haven't told the subjects yet that I want to do them. I've got to navigate that first. Got it. But this is not the end of Sean Penn and documentaries and traveling the world. Well, I never know what the end is. I will look both ways all the time, but you never know. Well, Sean Penn, thank you. Thank you.