Manchester United & Arsenal suffer defeats in the Champions League

Well, let's start with Manchester United, another defeat this time to Galatasaray in the Champions League. I'll get to the pages in just a second, but first, your thoughts. Jason, how bleak is the picture at United currently? Pretty bleak. A sixth defeat in ten games. It's really not acceptable for a club of the stature of Manchester United. And it's not just the defeats, it's the nature of them. Watching that game this evening, it was some appalling defending. Their confidence seems brittle. They don't seem to be able to control games. The story tonight should really be Rasmus Hoyland and his two goals. And obviously, he should really be all over the back pages. But unfortunately, it's going to be Andre Anana, who really is proving to be a real poor buy for them, I think. I'm not quite sure he's the goalkeeper they thought he was. The question marks have to be asked really on Eric Ten Hag's judgment in spending all of that money on a goalkeeper such as Anana, who, by the way, was available for a free transfer last year. And Manchester United played close to £50 million to bring him from Inter Milan. Obviously, they let David De Gea go, but he seems to be symptomatic of the problems at the club. His confidence seems to be gone. A player who has thrived on confidence, but doesn't seem to be able to even move off his goal line at times. And I think he really has dragged the team down. And I think Eric Ten Hag has got some very hard decisions to make, starting with whether or not he keeps faith with Anana. And looking at that defence as well, there seems to be lots of question marks over the players, especially in central defence. So he has a world of problems right now, and it's not looking good for him. Meanwhile, David De Gea is a free agent, Charlie. What do you make of it? Worst start since 1986 to a season for Manchester United. At what point does Eric Ten Hag become under pressure? I think he's under pressure now, and he'll continue to be under pressure. And most worrying of all for him, United haven't been unlucky. They weren't unfortunate tonight. Let's not forget Galatasaray missed the penalty. It could have been a lot worse. And as Jason said, they're poor in midfield, in central defence are a mess. I mean, can you imagine the stick Harry Maguire would have had tonight if he'd have been playing? And it just shows you, I think beyond doubt now, that United's problems are not necessarily Harry Maguire. The team's a bit of a mess. A couple of massive games, starting with Brentford at the weekend. Just getting a draw tonight would have been OK, but to lose. And what a sweet night it was for Wilf Zaha, who only made four appearances for United. And he'd have certainly enjoyed that goal in front of the Stretford End. Yeah, he got that first equaliser, didn't he? Mario Icardi missed the penalty, then scored the winner, Jason. And he features in your paper, the Telegraph sports supplement. Front page of that supplement there, Icardi and choke. Icardi and Coke reference, I think there. United flops, left staring into abyss. Is that how foreboding it is at the moment for United? Can they see a win coming? I mean, it's out of form Brentford at the weekend. Surely that's an opportunity to get back on track? Absolutely, it has to be, you know, but obviously then they've got the international break. So they really cannot afford to go into that on the back of another performance, poor performance and another bad result. So the pressure, as we're both saying, is really, really mounting on Eric ten Haag. And this is their worst ever start to a Champions League campaign. They're pointless after two games. They are really struggling to look like a team who can actually get through to the last 16. So these questions are going to mount, unless they do produce a convincing performance. And OK, Brentford are struggling, but I wouldn't really want to be playing Brentford because they're a difficult team to defeat. And I think that, you know, it's going to be a very tough game for Manchester United. The confidence is gone. And I think what's been interesting with Eric ten Haag is clearly he did a good job in that first season. Perhaps he was fortunate at times, but he did do a good job overall. But now the attention really is focusing much more on him because this is starting to look much more like his team. A lot of these players he's brought in, his players, you know, so he needs to take quite a lot of responsibility for that. Manchester United have spent a lot of money. He has reshaped the side a little bit more in his own image. And they're not producing. They're not playing the football they need to play. And obviously, you know, eventually the attention does shift to the manager. I think we're some way from that at the moment. They've invested hugely into Eric ten Haag and into the players that he wanted. But this is Manchester United. This is totally, utterly unacceptable, the performances. And as Charlie says, they're not unlucky. They're playing badly. Back page of the Mail, Charlie, Euro trash. In fairness to United, it's also a reference to Arsenal, I think a double header there. Hapless United sunk again as Saka limps off in Arsenal lost to Lons, which we will get to. Where do you identify the blame currently, Charlie, for what's happening? Jason's saying there that the manager is not purely culpable, but at the point where United was so open and Brentford have counterattacking prowess, can he take blame for that, the setup, the structure? Yeah, I think so. You know, he's not setting the team up right. And as Jason said, you know, the signings have yet to work. I mean, you know, in terms of Anana, you know, he was delivering these performances in Italy. You know, anyone that watches Italian football, you know, some of these mistakes he's making are not a massive surprise. This isn't a first for him. So, you know, clearly they not only overpaid, but they overpaid for a really average goalkeeper. And yet, you know, as I said earlier, they're a mess in defence. You know, Marcus Rashford, you know, he should have scored tonight and he squared the ball and did it badly. So he's struggling with confidence all around, I think, but the whole team is. And, you know, you can understand why the crowd are getting nervous. And, you know, it's a vicious circle, really. So, yeah, they really need a big performance and a good result against Brentford. But, you know, beyond that, you know, are Manchester United at the moment? Is anyone seeing them finishing in the top four? And that's, you know, incredibly unlikely. I think last season, finishing third, almost, they're probably overachieved, really. You know, if you look at it, probably Newcastle were the third best team in the Premier League. But, you know, by finishing third, there was a lot more expectation on whether United could even bridge that gap with Manchester City. But, of course, you know, the gap between these two has never been wider. And that's why I think United fans are particularly angry because they can see that the team is going backwards at the moment. Quick on a positive note, Jason, when you mentioned Rasmus Hoyland, how impressive was he tonight? Could have been a hat trick, couldn't it? I thought he was hugely impressive. I mean, this was really the game in which he was set to announce himself, you know, as a Manchester United number nine, as their main striker. I think he has been one ray of hope for them so far in this season. Obviously, he was injured at the start of the campaign. He's come into the team. He does look like somebody who can make that difference, who can be that number nine that they've really searched for for quite a long time. But he's been let down by those players around him. As you say, he could have had a hat trick tonight. He looked incredibly sharp, very strong, very quick, finished extremely well. And this could have been the moment for him when he really, as I say, announced himself as Manchester United's centre forward and on the biggest stage of the Champions League. But he's been let down by those around him. And I think that's a real concern. But for him personally, I think he had a very good game. What about the rest of the team, Charlie? What are the expectations now? Can Ten Hag rebuild this squad? Is it lack of quality or just a lack of morale and discipline at the moment? I think a bit of everything. First of all, the quality is not there, particularly at the back, again, the goalkeeper. Hoyland's been a good signing, as Jason just mentioned, and will get even better. So that's really promising. But just throughout the squad, the signings, it's easy to say now, but even before Ten Hag, a couple of years ago, one Earth didn't. United signed Harry Kane, Declan Rice and James Matherson. They've all gone to Manchester United a couple of years ago, and it would have cost them probably a lot less than what they've spent on all the other players in the last two years. But as I said, hindsight's a wonderful thing. But now that the squad's got no balance and at the moment absolutely no confidence, they're going to have a really tough winter. And at this stage, it doesn't look as though they're going to get through to the knockout stages of the Champions League. It's not over, of course, but they've got a massive game against Copenhagen in a few weeks, and that's certainly a must-win match. Jason, you referenced that. Is Ten Hag to blame for their recruitment? Partially to blame? Is that at the core of the issue? And who takes responsibility for that? I suppose it's been a question over the past decade since Rijksvergsen left. Yeah, I think there's a corporate failing at Manchester United. Obviously, we know the situation with the ownership, which is now turning towards being the anniversary of when we thought Manchester United were putting themselves up for sale. But I think that only goes so far. I think there are executives at the club who've let the club down. I think there's a lack of strength in the leadership. I think there's weakness around the club. I think the problem that Eric Ten Hag has got is he's come from Ajax where up until this season, for sure, the structure around him was very strong and very clear. And he's come into a club where that's not the case. And unfortunately, he's in that terrible situation, which some managers love, but actually I think is a real weakness. And the club are expecting him to give them all the direction in the way they should be operating, and that's not right. They should have a structure in place that helps the manager, especially at a club the stature of Manchester United. But I think he's not surrounded by people who are up to the job. And I think there's a real collective responsibility in the failings. But he also has to take quite a lot of responsibility for a lot of these signings. The players that he pushed for, the players that he spent a lot of money on, sometimes paying way over the odds, much more than the clubs are bidding for these players or even interested in bidding for these players. So he has to take responsibility as well. He can only hide so much behind what's been going on around the club and behind the scenes. And if he wants to be the Manchester United manager for a long term, then he really has to sort of step up and show a bit more strength and leadership around the club. It's a hard ship to get going in the right direction, isn't it, Charlie? Back page of The Times coming in to us. Zaha scores as United lose at home again. And I suppose Wilfred Zaha, a timely example of players who've flourished elsewhere but struggled at United. Is there a malaise around the club that affects players when they go there as well? It's not just their calibre, perhaps their form dips? I mean, there shouldn't have been because United started the season in a pretty good place in terms of last season. I think lots of United fans are optimistic. They finished third, as you said. They won the Cup. They strengthened, in theory at least. So I don't think there's any excuse from the players that that malaise shouldn't have been there, really. But it seems that they've actually got worse as the season progressed. Obviously, we're only a few games into the campaign. But over the next few weeks, it's going to be really, really important. Both for Ten Hag and the players and the entire club. Because a few more poor results. First of all, if they don't beat Copenhagen, they're probably not going to get into the knockout stages. At this stage, they do look like a mid-table Premier League team. Maybe the Europa League and dropping into that might be the only hope for Manchester United. What about Arsenal, gentlemen? Let's go on to discuss Arsenal. We've got a headline from The Telegraph. Injury to Saka adds to stilted Arsenal's gloom. Do you think, Jason, the Saka injury might be more concerning in a sense than the defeat in France? Well, it looks like he's been suffering a little bit from injury for the last couple of weeks. We've seen him come off before in games. We've seen him stay on perhaps a bit longer than he should have done. So he clearly has been carrying some form of injury. And that seems to have caught up with him tonight. He is, along with Martin Odegaard, Arsenal's most important player. And unfortunately, they appear to have lost him before the most important Premier League game of the season so far for them playing Manchester City at home on Sunday. So it's a huge blow for them, perhaps potentially even a bigger blow than losing this game because they're in a reasonable position in the group, having won their first match so convincingly against PSV. I think they showed quite a lot of naivety tonight. I think they looked like a team backing the Champions League for the first time in a while. And Lons have rallied of late, but have lost some good players themselves. So it's quite a damaging defeat, I think, for them. It's a blow. It's the first defeat of the season, so it's not a disaster. But I think the real concern will be how injured is Saka, how long will he be out for, because he is such an important player for them that they really are not the same side without him. Has Mikel Arteta been overusing Bukayo Saka, Charlie? What's your take on it? It's not the first time he's come off. He says it's a muscular injury and they don't know more than that, is Arteta's post-match comments. But there have been scenes of him coming off recently and perhaps looking short of full fitness. But, you know, Saka, obviously, understandably, is one of those players, like all players, he wants to play. But I think they've been quite careful. But equally, it's not the only injury Arsenal have got at the moment. They've got a few, which is really worrying, going into that game against Manchester City, as Jason said. In terms of the defeat, look, I still think Arsenal will be all right. Losing away from home is not a disaster. You win your home games. Let's not forget Liverpool won the Champions League in 2019 when they lost all three of their group games away from home. So I think Arsenal will be all right. But, yeah, short-term, Saka and the other injuries are a big worry. How difficult for them to pick up again, Jason, ahead of the weekend, though? You alluded to it there. They lost the last 12 league games against Manchester City. Would Saka be a huge blow for that? Yeah, I think he would. I really do. I think he just gives them that little bit of something up front that scares the opposition. And that's obviously why Mikel Arteta's played him so much. I think it will be quite a damaging blow for them not to have him in the team because he is their talisman in so many ways, especially in the attacking third of the pitch. So you're absolutely right. I think it will be a psychological blow for them as much as anything else to lose him going into this game, knowing that they have such an appalling record against Manchester City and hoping they can turn that around this season to actually take them all the way to the title. So I think if Saka is out, it will be something that will affect them quite deeply. Do you think that game, Charlie, quickly, before we go to a break, will decide Arsenal's focus this season? If they lose that, does it all become more important, the Champions League, in a sense? Look, I think even if they lose, it's not a disaster. Equally, it's just as big a game for Manchester City. When I was at Modern U on Saturday, City were really poor. Of course, they've got a game tomorrow night. But I cannot believe Manchester City are going to play anywhere near as badly against Arsenal as they did against Wolves. So it's actually a big game for both teams. But, yeah, we'll see. But, yeah, as Jason said, it will be a massive blow if Saka is not fit. We look forward to that game live on Sky Sports, 4.30 on Sunday.