Oakland's Eviction Tsunami Explained | Jonathan Fleming

the city is failing is is Citizens now it's failed it's a fail City a lot of people think like it can't be that way yeah it is I I'm in downtown Oakland sometime looks like a ghost town if you own something you're like the bad guy the city went out of its way in my opinion to tell people not to pay rent you have landlords who have not received rent in almost three three and a half plus four going on four years now now they have to go through the eviction process which is a joke or they created barriers that quite frankly are just killing landlords hello and welcome to Bay Area innovators I'm your host Steve ispas Oakland is at a Tipping Point today with renter eviction cases soaring after the years long moratorium due to covid which allowed tenants not to pay rent finally ending today we sit down with Jonathan Fleming an Oakland local and expert in real estate to help us understand what is happening on the ground Jonathan Welcome to our program thank you for having me thank you great to have you here well you know we've seen a lot of eviction lately in the city of Oakland the numb has been going through the roof you've been an expert in real estate and you live in Oakland tell us why is this happening well I mean Oakland is a city that can't help itself at times based upon leadership and I I go back to a situation that happened in a couple years ago where there was a group of squatters that took over a house in West Oakland and they were a group of people who basically it was a faceless corporation that owned investment property in Oakland and they were allowed to basically go inside squat on the property and it it created this big media bananza in terms of you know about property rights about corporations buying properties in neighborhoods and at the end of the day it was sort of like a victory in a way for the squatters because the city I think the city put their property in something some type of land trust they were able to Commander this property that was just sitting there vacant that was owned by a corporation and I think when I think when cities adopt policies that basically take away property rights where somebody can say hey I'm dis gr so therefore let me take that car let me take that house and then you start electing people like that to the city council you start breeding the attitude of just you know I made it even though I made probably bad choices in life or I didn't make the best choices in life somebody owes me something and I think a lot of people don't realize how incidences like that start this ripple effect in terms of Housing and then you have a situation that where we at today which is we're right now there we there are going to be thousands of evictions in the Bay Area in Oakland especially I've worked in the the business for over two decades now and I've never seen so many people who stop paying rent we we're doing we're so busy right now with terms of paperwork trying to make sure people you know are going to be getting evicted soon unfortunately we take no pride in that for example I have a client right now has a 18 unit building more than half the people stopped paying rent during the pandemic and not only did they stop paying rent they you know the building conditions is not as great as it used to be you have a lot of situations where the city of Oakland didn't allow us to evict unruly people or they created barriers that quite frankly you're just killing landlords and one of the biggest problems we have now which is now we're going through the legal process that trying to get them out is you have a clogged court system you have certain like you have certain Fringe groups who help the tenants who are the ones who not not all tenants are doing this there's a small group of tenants who can go to certain organizations in Oakland and basically cause the landlord to spend a lot of legal money trying to evict them this organization even gets money from the city of Oakland so when you're a taxpaying owner of a property in Oakland when you're trying to evict some of your tenants you're also fighting the city of Oakland because they're funding these frch groups that are basically trying to stop you from evicting people who didn't pay rent and then all of this got worse on July 15 as far as the eviction because of the moratorium Ed talk to us about it got it got even worse because a there are so many people who stopped paying rent for whatever reason but the city went out of its way in my opinion to tell people not to pay rent the city basically just you know put a banner up say hey they can't evict you they can't do nothing to you I mean we can give people like three-day notices to pay can do a lot of different things that we normally would I had I had a tenant who paid this rent all time for three years but then when the eviction Bo torum hit complete sto paying and for three plus years almost four years has not made a rental payment and this is the city of Oakland so when you look at the politics of the situation you also got to understand that when government interferes with private Enterprise because when you're a landlord you are you're you're a business but I'm going to tell you your customers can come eat at your restaurant every single day for the next three years I have we have power to tell you you can't charge those people a lot of these landlords I'm W I'm working with a lot of landlords now who are facing foreclosure they've had mental you know hurt from the situation their families are struggling they have no money to even pay them pay for their own upkeep or their own lives and a lot of these were happening because the city of Oakland went overboard with an eviction moratorium that has gone almost four years you have landlords who have not received Grant and almost three three and a half plus four going on four years now now they have to go through the eviction process which is a joke cuz a lot of these Alam County judges are afraid of the N they're they're afraid of The Fringe groups out there they're afraid of the the certain things that the city's doing and there you rarely can find judges in alamina County you if you go in there with your eviction tant hasn't paid three four or four years if you you don't have one form or document that they were post the judge would throw it out talk to us a little bit about the process so so someone didn't pay the rent for 3 four months after the moratorium ended right so then the landlord has to what does what do they have to do to get them evi they have to start an eviction they have to use they have to use a special three-day notice to pay customized for the city of Oakland and if it's outdated for example or if it doesn't have a certain wording in there these French groups that operate out of the courthouse because they have desk and things set up there and all they do all day long because they're heavily funded by local governments around the Bay Area right they will say oh it doesn't have this oh this is the old form this is the form two years ago the central issue is these people did not pay their rent they should be evicted but in Oakland they've created all these different layers of ways to stop hardworking small Property Owners who've done everything right from evicting people out of their property who did not want to pay rent I mean it it's almost like you know I've been I've managed properties for a long time but when you take away any type of responsibility in terms of when you tell the landlord hey that this person can sit here live free for three plus years and now they have to expend legal cost to get this person out it's like a it's like a rigged system and I think that's what a lot of people in the Bay Area do not realize it's a Rigg system that favors people who are who didn't want to do the right thing and a lot of people think I'm a lot of people think like it can't be that way yeah it is go down to Hayward Court am on Amador Street on any Wednesday or or during the week you see a whole crowded space and and you got landlords you have tenants then you got the FRS groups in there whose only goal is to try to destroy the landlord cost them a whole lot of money I worked with a lady recently who the tenant had been in her the lady had been in her house for three plus years this lady the client was a older lady she was trying to use she wanted to sell the property when the market was better for her own retirement but since the lady had been there for three plus years um hadn't paid her hadn't paid RIT at all she wouldn't got one of these you know soall groups that are about helping tenants right but all they wanted to do was cause the client to spend a whole bunch legal fees getting the way of what the lady needed to do which was the tenant had to leave because she hadn't paid so she she was so stressed out she didn't want to go through the whole fight she wanted she didn't want to exhaust all her money on the legal fees so she hadn't received rent over three and a half years so she just ended up selling her property for much less to an investor and people don't realize how much that's happening now where if you if you said listen I probably get probably get 500,000 I probably get 700,000 didn't have this issue going on if the person had paid me but now I got to sell it for much cheaper or maybe 500 or or 450 because they know what they know what's coming down the pipeline which is a fight and in Oakland Oakland city government has done more Oakland City Council has done more to encourage homelessness or encourage people to not get off of that whole mindset they' they they've created their own industrial homeless encampments because where are all these people going that are getting evicted now they're gonna so-call need Services they're gonna so-call need money they're gonna have to be funded by someone so now the government or just to say Oakland City Oakland city government they are now responsible for all this displacement because they're the only ones that tried to stay up to almost four years of of people not paying rent tell us a little bit more about these Fringe groups like who they are how how they got funded and who's supporting them to work on this on this destabilization of of of housing a lot of the groups are really just they have a lot of Staff attorneys there and they and they a lot of City a lot of City governments will give money to groups that Advocate on behalf of tenants but in reality what some of them are doing now is they have to feed themselves right you know so when you're fighting with a tenant they can make I mean when I say fighting when you're trying to evict someone who has not paid or they're just they're not they're violating the lease this these groups will ask you for 60 70 $100,000 as a move out expense you know when you're negotiating with them for example or they will threaten to go to trial they were threatened cuz see most landlords in Alam County they're not going to want to pay their attorney to sit up in court waiting for a trial which is at $300 to $500 an hour for for two or three days cuz that's the whole hustle behind it which is to get you to exhaust all your resources as a property owner and the people that but the people they're hurting are just average Everyday People they're not people who are they didn't go into the housing business to be slim lers these people they worked hard they're small property owners in Oakland and there's really nobody advocating for them in the right way in terms of I I see myself on like Ground Zero of it cuz I deal with it from both sides and I work with some incredible nonprofits who have done great jobs with you know taking people off the street helping people get get back on but when you look at the way the city of Oakland has done it they've encouraged homelessness by their actions of making landlords broke they've killed their own housing stock because they've killed the landlords like the property we were at yesterday for I mean in Oakland this week tennis hadn't paid in almost four years you go inside the unit it's just thrashed nothing work I mean everything just thrashed in there just tons of clothes junk um bikes you got you know car tires in there I mean you have things in there that shouldn't even be in an apartment in the first place so when you know when the sheriff goes in there and Sheriff even the sheriff was like wow you know what the hell is this I mean is this so much and this but these are this is an apartment that's going to have to be re cleaned up turned around you're looking at 253 $40,000 with all the renovation that's going to have to occur loss of rent for the last four years almost so where where this property owner is not rich where are they gonna get that type of money from and with this kind of loss and if I had to estimate how much rental income they've lost I would say probably up in $80,000 over the time of the yeah over the time of it because the S A lot of people would watching the show probably say why didn't you vict those people you have a moratorium in place not only did you have a state moratorium Alam County moratorium then you have a city of Oakland moratorium but when Al when the state and Alam County removed theirs Oakland extended theirs so where is the where is the justice for the small property owner and all you doing is helping you're all you're doing is encouraging homelessness and and kicking good people to the curve who own property another thing that we had in Oakland too which was you have unruly tenants who are bothering other tenants in the building so you know you can't just go down to the court work your way through the system and try to get that person out you you even those French groups that I'm telling you about their attorneys will fight you over people who are even violating the least the least rules or what they'll fight you over that so you cannot evict someone or or take them out for being unruly that that that's not a a clause that can be used oh they make you go through hell to do that the judges are scared back in the day I can go to like ca County judges out there are just way more understanding of the Rental process of the in Alam County like one judge who was handling all these eviction cases and you got all these people who are just coming down a pipeline that have to be evicted now where is the due process for all those landlords who who who losing right now part of it is just that we knew this day was coming those of us who work in the housing business we knew this day was coming but when you have a attitude in Oakland which is Oakland is very anti-b business for one but Oakland never wanted Oakland put the housing problem on the backs of small property owners and didn't give them any help and that's crushed a lot of people that's made a lot of good people leave Oakland now I you have a lot of good property owners that I had a old lady called me and she said she had been a property owner in Oakland for over 50 60 years her and her husband started off selling real estate together in Oakland and she said never again she's leaving Oakland she she's not investing in Oakland no more she's done this this lady was I got to know this lady a little bit African-American lady and what bothers me about it even more is that you know you have all this discussion about reparations in the Bay Area this city of Oakland has done more to take from that I've witnessed to take from black Property Owners so why are you talking about reparations yeah these people already have something but you're taking it from them but then I'm watching on the news about oh reparations and these politicians are talking about reparations for these for the African-American people black people and I'm like dude they have I work with a lot of black people who have properties but they're losing it because you're you're telling people not to pay the rent for the last four years I mean it's the craziest thing I've ever seen in my life and most people unless you work in the industry you don't you won't see it as much this way I you know there's not a week that does a week or day doesn't go by when I get a call from somebody and we can't really calculate the numbers of people who just said you know sometimes I sold my property and things of that nature and oh sometime people do it silently they just sell it to an investor or they just sell it you know for a price they didn't want to sell it for and they're leaving and that's what you're having in Oakland is you're losing a lot of good people because of the ignorance of the Oakland City Council I mean I've been upfront about it I you know I've advocated for recalling the whole city council because I think you cannot I mean if you look at the incompetence by the old Oakland City Council and I and I and I've told a lot of people this I mean you you have to get to the point where you know you you got to take the whole thing out now they did this for four years almost four years stop these people from getting income from their properties and now we're about to have a whole bunch of Slum like looking properties we we about about to have a lot of properties that are just in horrible condition you're not going to have property owners who are going to be funded enough to even keep their properties up and just like I was telling you about the 18 unit building where half the people stop paying now since we're evicting them we're trying to evict them they're basically running to the city and telling the city that well I have this problem with my unit or have this problem so now I'm dealing with build building inspectors coming out to the building and saying well you have to fix this you have to fix this you have to fix that CU they're doing anything they can to stop the eviction at that point and the property owner is got to pay all that money for properties for units that for stuff that he didn't do wrong and but that's the defense in Oakland which is called a building inspection in the building inspection department they out to the building they tag you for anything they they'll tag you for a squirrel walking by your building I mean that's how ridiculous it is and that property owner gets a big letter from them fix all this by a certain time otherwise we're going to find you and the Tenant will take that letter run to some of these friends groups and then they'll use it to try to deny you the fact that you can't evict them so even though they might owe you $80 to $100,000 in back R they're going going to do everything they can to try to stop you and that's where the city of Oakland is give give us some examples of what that could be like a faucet running or something or it could be a lot of times this tenant caused damage to their own Roberty they didn't report it I I had one guy he didn't report a leak because we had been trying to get in touch with him cuz he old backr but he never called us about the league because he owed his background but he but when he got the eviction notice that's when he called the city of Oakland and he says like they're not fixing this they're not fixing that but the guy basically just dodged us the whole timec I mean because you know he didn't want to notify us so you not only do you have to try to get in the units do regular inspections and they're trying to stop you from getting in there but then you have the city who's put themselves in this police type of manner where they want to give you this letter saying fix this or we're going to find you and the finds heavy I mean if you don't do what they tell you to do they they put a huge fine on you and there's really no appeal process the appeal process is a joke you know even if even if you're right as a landlord the appeal process is a joke and these guys are just trained to come out there and just tag your building find whatever you can and just try they're basically trying to put you out of business and when we talk about small Property Owners or good people owning property what small property owner has that kind of money those kind of resources to be fighting with City the the the lawyers who work for the French groups trying to stop evictions and then you and then you have to fight the tenants at the same time that's a lot of resources you know so people don't understand like with Oakland is you have to look at maybe recalling that city council because the policy they put in place I mean like me just for example look at what's going on with our retail businesses in Oakland and what not they're getting robbed at gunpoint and they're closing down yeah they're closing down I'm in downtown Oakland sometime looks like a ghost town I'm like this is Oakland used to have a lot more energy I mean I have I I was recently with a friend of mine you hard pressed to get one of your friends to come meet you in downtown Oakland because they're they're afraid of the car getting stolen they're afraid of somebody breaking their windows or they're just afraid of getting a crime happening to him and it it dawned on me a while back when I was walk I was walking through downtown Oakland I counted about I walk from 12th in Broadway I walk about four or five blocks I probably seen about eight to nine different cars with the window like broken out and then I see then I see shop owners you you go up in Walgreens everything's locked up and and people don't realize that small businesses they've gone through riots where people broke their Windows the city is just as the city is failing this is Citizens now it's failed it's a failed City let me ask you an ask why is this happening you know how did we get here I mean I I know about the moratorium and and the co but how how the the city leaders fail the city so much what was the reason behind it when you look at the city of Oakland just like I was telling you about the squatters okay and then we then that person gets elected to the city council right you Oakland has to get to a point whereby you got to feel good about A Hard Day's Work meaning we we shouldn't be we shouldn't be telling people like we shouldn't be advocating for people not to pay their the rent their bills we shouldn't tell them that this woman that owns this 4unit apartment building is a bad person now that person just worked hard they they were in a position where they want to become a property owner they got into the rental property business we should celebrate people that found a career or either got some skills worked saved their money invested the attitude should be that's what we want but in Oakland because the mindset the politics have gotten so out of control we see this person as like the enemy now like people like me who grew up in the city started their own business you know grew up in East Oakland still live in East Oakland right they they would accuse me of of being part of a white a right-wing conspiracy now in Oakland like the barrier politicians people like me you know I'm not affiliated with no politician I have no friends who are politicians right but people like me are considered part of this right-wing conspiracy theory because I'm advocating for hey work pay your bills you know but in Oakland that attitude is used in a way to politics from politics why it's used as a way to just manipulate people like we've had the Super Bowl in California in the last four years right we've had NBA games we had but Oakland's the only city Oakland is in California Oakland says oh you're you're still suffering from covid four years later that's why you can't pay your rent that's crazy I mean I was reading this article the other day about they were building a um affordable housing complex and it was like they going to BU 47 units at a cost of maybe $15 million for example right and I and I I know a lot about the affordable housing industry it could it could it could be a beautiful industry right but we're not training people we're not giving them job skills we're not giving them things to say like listen I want to build and Empower myself we're not doing that we're just doing stuff like we're giving them something giving them something giving them something right and then we're criminalizing or making people out to be bad guys who actually bought a property and said listen I want to be a property owner I want to be a rental property owner so I want to help people's lives I work with landlords who invest a serious amount of money in their properties they want to be a part of the change in the community and they' just basically got the middle finger from government for the last four years and when you talk about turning around the system you can't turn it around if the forces that play are purposely trying to kill local landlords that own properties for the right reasons talk to us about what do you think is the ideology that's driving this this Force that's pushing this this policies out it's it's been simple for a long time now it's just people who have something are like the enemy you can have a new car and you're the enemy I mean o Oakland's gotten infected with this socialist Marxist ideology and his government and it's unfair to Property Owners it's unfair to the entrepreneurs it's unfair to the business owners because they when you go into business in this country you go in business with a profit seeking ideology mindset or ability but we in Oakland you have a group of people who said basically we're going to try to funel this money to other groups we're going to try to fun this money to maybe people who might be our might be friendly with us might be our friends in some cases but these entrepreneurs that these Property Owners business owners that I see and know they bust their ass to make it they wear car so for you to come with this this whole socialist Marxist attitude and let that infect city government that's something that it that's something that's seriously wrong with any city across the whole country and right now in Oakland you had people who considered themselves to be you know very liberal just not just not crazy because the mindset today is that we're you know if you own something you're like the bad guy when do you think this started to change as far as this ideology moving towards this socialist agenda I think a lot of it has to do in the last four or five years where people were you know polit politicals politicians they started painting Property Owners is Public Enemy Number One because they had this huge housing housing issue right but we've had we've had a housing issue we have homelessness forever in California I you go back to 80s the 90s you've always had high rent I mean you've always had people who said this rent was too high now all of a sudden you're going to tell me that all of this is a result of high rent no local governments are encouraging homelessness because they've devalued a ethical principle which is work hard pay your bills pay your rent but see when you're building that mindset into people people you then you wonder like you have why you have homelessness problem now but you just went on TV in news conference you just basically say you don't have to pay your rent if any landlord is messing with you you know let us know because we go charge them or something like we're go we do whatever we have to do legally to you know to go after them so when you when you said you your question was you know when you asked me how did this mindset come about right we've devalued hard work or just working anyway and we're basically saying okay government will basically has all the answers government has never had all the answers and government won't have the answer to this this housing problem I mean you look back through history it's never it's never ended it's never been that way but in Oakland Oakland Oakland is a good lesson for the rest of the country because the political leaders didn't you know they went far radical they endorsed the mindset that in the end it's hurt them so people go to vote right why do people vote for the politicians who create these problems when people see the problems I think it was just a perfect storm in the last 3 four years you you had Co you L people off work you had people who were kind of like um you know victims of the moment and I think a lot of radicalism infected common sense I think now people are returning to that Common Sense again you had covid out there you didn't know what it was and as they say historically fear is the best way to control people I think some some some nefarious groups use it as the opportunity to try to rechange civilization in a way way and it went and it's a wayward experiment that I think a lot of people have woken up about now and there and there a lot of people are looking at it to say like I I had a lot of friends in mine who were anti- police who were a lot of these different things in that moment and you Flash Forward like four five four years later a lot of them are pro police because they can't go anywhere they're being robbed their cars being breaken into crime is out of control Oakland's Gone full Joker mode in terms of you have all of these all this crime now so a lot of those people that I'm talking you about they've kind of like Snapped out of it they want they're prop police now they want safer streets they want better governing now so so speaking of that let's look at Solutions what do you think are solutions for the city of Oakland to go back to to to improve the situation I'm really big about I really think because this whole mindset got rooted into City Hall I think you have to look at you know really like as a business leader now we cannot be silent anymore in the business Community we have to be business owner part-time activist now because if you don't the community is going to suffer the city is suffering i' I've advocated to a lot of people re recalling the city government recalling the the city council is one quick way to change the city because these people have been silent about Public Safety they've been they've been they've endorsed policies where people didn't have to pay their rent they've damaged so many people economically now that how can the city how how does the city recover secondly you have to stop the city from funding French groups that are align line with trying to destroy small Property Owners you can have City governments doing that there I mean there there ought to be some type of law where you stop that from happening and like just like everybody else has the Bill of Rights California needs to adopt a landlord Bill of Rights because there are certain things that should not have happened to a property owner regardless there should be a property owner or a landlord Bill of Rights that protect them against certain type of government overreach government things that they do that are just overboard you I mean we we never tell Apple computer listen don't sell the iPhone for over this amount of money or Price the iPhone at this price or give it away for free or give it away for free we don't do that the Apple computer right but if you're a small property owner and you got a business license and you got into business to to be a property owner we control you we even destroy you when we're ready to and in California and you know California has gone against property rights or and they've moved into the wrong direction of that whole issue for years now and you should you should not have that kind of no government should be given that kind of power to just take from people when I look at the people who are losing Properties or the properties are changing hands right now all of it is the dir result of government action it's not like they did anything criminal themselves it's not like they did anything the government basically said you don't have to pay your rent there's no repercussions and then when people a lot of these Property Owners to recover their money that's going to be a uphill battle do you feel Oakland is more extreme in that case than other cities or other counties like San Francisco or I think San Francisco's rising up again they saw themselves gone over the cliff but for some reason they were able to get a rope bow back up right so I see San Francisco cleaning up a lot I'm more positive about the future of San Francisco Oakland I'm not positive about right now because I see leaders who are silent about the problem I don't like for example they have like Grand programs to help property owners who were damaged I think County however the people who wrote the Bill didn't do a good job with it because if you have a certain property size or if your property is in the LLC or Corporation it's all of these stupid things in there you should just open up for property owners period that need help regardless of whether the property is held in an entity or whether the properties is over five units there's plenty of people who are rich that own 18 20 unit buildings they're not wealthy but Al but Alam County and Oakland Oakland hasn't Oakland really has not done any reach out to Property Owners whove been damaged from their own laws that they created you know and and that's really that's really incredible when you think about it because government supposed to exist to help people when certain things break down and not and and keep in mind now that Oakland has a lot of older buildings right so when you look at some of these properties these landlords were paying water utilities and basically getting nothing from these people do you see people leaving the city and how many landowners are leaving Oakland As a result of this um hardship that they're going through I think it's a huge number I don't have an exact number but from just working with people daily and amount of different type of calls I get and when I talk to other property owners and property managers I'm a member of a lot of organizations for example right and I talk to a lot of different property owners and even when I'm down at the courthouse it's amazing the line of people who are lined up fing unlaw detainers it's amazing amount of people who are down at the courthouse all the time and these These are people who are just small Property Owners so what happens with the buildings when they leave they they sell them who do they sell them to who's who's buying them and investors and then you got investors who will buy them now you got different type of housing investors and then then you have nowadays you have a lot of um homeless um owned entities by the state and city government that are buying buildings now they're buying up buildings to house the homeless and in some cases they're going to be housing the same people they help become homeless now and that's what's so crazy about it they created a certain they created a new segment of people that they've encouraged I mean cuz like for example say if you were a person who didn't pay your rent for last three four years on call it and you get evicted right so now you got eviction on your record right right have bad credit don't have a place to live now so who's going who's going to who's going to rent to you at that point it's going to take a government entity to rent from you now so government at the same time it encourages um homelessness and now you got to look at this property owner who's damaged now they're losing their property so as you can see the whole system is a dark hole that looks exactly like a communist state where I grew up where indeed people do have housing because the government owns it all but everyone is poor like really poor except for the few people on the in in in the politicians who are corrupt and who have money but the most of people are poor that's the direction that communist takes this country has always been about you know capitalism or ability to go out there and try to do something with nothing right and I've never seen a such amount of people who I mean the people I'm talking to you about are no different than anybody else but they're being Savaged by this new set of um communism now maybe what is um socialism Marxist ideology which is you know you can't have anything or if you do have something you're evil nobody's evil because they own property I mean what what's evil is causing hardworking people to fail because you put some type of crazy government power in place and to discourages people to pay their bills and that's something that from a historical perspective perspective we're never going to be able to live down because so many people just like a lot of restaurant owners had to close because of Co El nobody people forgotten about those people right we're the media in the Bay Area to me is disappointing because I don't feel like the media has covered this story the way they should I don't feel like a lot of Bay Area media has challenged local leaders I don't feel like a lot of bay are media have really given us the attention to deserves and when we look at the homeless crisis in the Bay Area we got to ask ourselves are we really trying to solve it or we really or is it just about you know hurting one person to get another group to rise up it it it doesn't seem right well Jonathan thank you so much for your time I think this is such an important issue to talk about I'm glad you bring it out for audience and anything else you'd like to add hopefully like this just wakes people up I think you have to just be engaged at the city level state level whatever level you are your business owner speak up talk up now because the days have been quiet or overweight they're trying to ruin they're trying to ruin a lot of things that you're working hard for every day and I would just encourage people to get more involved Jonathan Fleming Oakland thank you so much for your time thank you sir bam thank you [Music]