Oversight Hearing | Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee

the subcommittee on oversight and investigations will come to order without objection in the chair is authorized to declare a recess to the soap committee at any time the subcommittee today is meeting near the testimony on the impacts of the Department of Interiors remote and telework policies it the gentleman from California Miss Kim love is he right is accident and without objection so ordered under rule 4 F any oral opening statement at the hearing our limited to the chairman and the ranking minority member I therefore asking amps who sent that all of the members statements be made part of the hearing record if they're submitted in accordance with the committee rule three zero without objection so word I now recognize myself from my opening statement good morning everyone and thank you to our Witnesses for joining us today that I want to point that they both the office of personnel management OPM and the Office of Management and budget oh ume OMB testify today or even send written testimony despite their deep level of involvement in crafting the remote and teleport policies for the federal government and related data collection capabilities for each agency despite their unwillingness to generally speak to the telework policies of the body demonstration I must say I am not surprised as it seems to repeat an ongoing pattern of the Biden Administration Witnesses unwilling to participate in Congressional hearings with that I am excited for the witnesses we do have today we will examine the department of Interiors telework and remote work policies and their effect on the delivery services to Americans and to that to be clear I recognize that telework and remote work can be useful and limited and well defined circumstances however DOI has abused their excessive teleworking remote work policies for employees at a time when even President Joe Biden is calling for further return to the office covid-19 pandemic is long over and the effects of the pandemic subsided years ago as a result last April the bite Administration made the long overdue decision to sign my bill into law HR HJ resolution 7 terminating the covid National Emergency Act declaration shortly thereafter olymp and OPM announced the removal of the covid-19 Nationwide operating status for federal agencies then in August white house chief of staff zinc accident onto the cabinet members officials urging federal agencies to return to in-person work in order to quote deliver better results for the American people and of quote clearly even White House is concerned about the excessive current levels of telework and remote work leading up to a lack of productivity among federal agencies and the inability of agencies like doi to meet their mission and provide core services to Americans however despite the direction to return to inward in-person work DOI has only made minimal changes to their telework policy reality remains a DOI allows their teleworking in eligible employees totally report to the office twice every two weeks DUI has so far been unable to produce an any meaningful data for tracking their telework and remote work rates among employees so it is unclear how much progress the department of interior has made towards returning to in work here we are in 2024 and you I remains mired and in wrote in irrelevant and ineffective covid-19 telework policies the departures agencies are less productive and continue to fall behind on outstanding work affecting the delivery of services to all Americans for example last fall GAO released two reports detailing the numerous delays and deficiencies at the Bureau of Indian Affairs including their ongoing struggles to process applications on time for providing Real Estate Services to the tribes and travel citizens and to close out agreements issued under the Indian self-determination and education assistance Act reports are also identified serious health and the reports also identified serious health and safety issues at Union Schools and detention facilities in glaring deficiencies with National Data regarding missing indigenous women additionally our national parks are in a state critical deferred maintenance projects are dragging out parks our Parks down as National Park Service has yet to make any significant progress on our massive backlog of properties and projects even those that address immediate danger to the Life Health and property or the infrastructure Geo also identified that NPA National Park Service is currently unable to affect it quote unable to effectively identify and manage its deferred maintenance due to inaccurate and unreliable data and a quote now I expect my friends on the other side of the owl to argue once again that if only Congress provide more funding deal I could solve that it's many problems however I urge my colleagues to break free from this DC swamp mired in virus mired virus so he can address a larger problems within our federal agencies disagree after years of additional funding literally it seems like funding has grown on trees around here nothing has changed in all honesty things have gotten worse sometimes money isn't the issue perhaps it's really poor management and then often starts with the top of at the top with bad policies as a result as a responsibility of the Interior agencies to find ways to become more productive and efficient in the resources management already at their disposal it is time for the DUI to return to more appropriate pre-pandemic levels of telework and remote work so that staff will have more productivity remote work so that staff will have more productivity communication personal and establish a stronger workplace culture and establish a stronger workplace culture for working in person solution to the in-person and absenteeism of show up act which should which would return and require federal agencies telework levels during the pandemic impacted their missions the Senate to take up this legislation so we can get back he to our Witnesses was being here today and I member this cam logger dove you chair work and remote work works them more productive and reduces stress by for parents military spouses people with disabilities and job opportunities and better work life balance it helps attract the best talent it helps them manage postpartum depression getting to Congress my colleagues have Cherry that we need to return to pre-pandemic telework shows that telework flexibility is a net positive employees alike that's employees shows Republicans use it for their own opened our eyes to and it's not so much about is about being under resourced but committee gotcha agendas that Performing here rather than doing the work for the American people perspective we know now that a wide margin people perspective we know now that a wide margin occurring all over the globe methane to Major greenhouse gases the consequences are all around us extreme weather new disease outbreaks will require resources change is happening every day are we here to do today how often they have to commute and the Biden Administration are pulling our pass the inflation reduction Act and for addressing the climate crisis working of California dollars to protect the up to better protect climate crisis and this type of the Biden Harris and in person for being here California I'm the director of strategic issues Mark green human capital officer me remind you that testing your statement gosar and members of the subcommittee or member of the subject people a little closer to you telework continues to evolve it's important to have a clear understanding of how so can also help agencies organizational Health such as Employee Engagement or resiliency to ensure missions continue during periods of disruption like what seen during this week's snowstorm in addition human capital officers have reported that telework can address skills gaps similar to those faced by the interior because best has effective telework implementation can help agencies address these gaps while there are benefits to it's important that we mitigate the challenges to fully realize these benefits challenges we see thus far include managing Federal space issues with they need to fulfill their missions retaining excess space is another area that has been on gao's high risk list since 2003 and you are aware interior struggles with these very issues we found that leveraging benchmarks established by OMB help Federal officials better assess workspace needs and potentially reduce costs for telework challenges related to technology we've identified equipment shortages lack of training on the technology and limited network capacity at various agencies we've also found challenges with telework data particularly data maintained in opm's human resource database system please note improving the reliability of these data can better help agencies in all of you informed decisions about telework what I want to make very clear regarding these challenges is that they could be me mitigated if agencies followed key practices that provide a roadmap for successfully implementing telework programs these practices consist of steps like having a dedicated telework office to provide oversight ensuring appropriate technology for those working from home and having evaluation plans to make course Corrections where needed Federal telework programs faced an intense stress test beginning in March of 2020 this experience enhanced our understanding of what telework and can do for the federal government when use effectively it could be quite beneficial but only if we address the challenges that is only if we implement key practices and have the data needed to make informed decisions to ensure this Workforce flexibility is meeting Mission and customer needs bottom line we must continue to provide oversight of telework and hold agencies accountable for meeting their goals whether their employees are sitting in a cubicle working in the field or connecting virtually from home I look for questions I think the gently Miss Locker five minutes and now I recognize Mr for his five minutes chairman goes our ranking member Commodore dove and members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the department of the interior's long-standing telework and remote work policies I'm Mark green Chief human capital officer at the department after my 24 year career in the United States Army I worked for US Service and I've been in my current position for about a year Congress enacted the telework enhancement Act of 2010 the department has supported telework program that allows agency employees with the agreement and approval of their supervisor to engage in appropriate telework and remote work opportunities telework may be authorized only to the extent that an approved telework agreement does not diminish employ or organizational performance in any agreement must be reviewed by the employee supervisor to ensure that it does not impede the Departments mission government continues to refine our telework program by implementing government best practices providing training to supervisors and employees and improving our information technology infrastructure these refinements and in our telework program enabled the to quickly move to maximum telework posture while maintaining Mission critical functions during the covid-19 pandemic these actions complied with the Office of Management budgets guidance related to that emergency throughout the pandemic the Department's Workforce of approximately 70,000 dedicated employees across 2400 different locate Geographic locations continued to deliver the Department's mission are getting employees remain resilient throughout a very difficult time managing maintaining over 400 National Park units 550 National Wildlife refuges 475 critical infrastructure dams and 480 million Acres of public lands and for the American people over 5,000 600 Wildland fire Personnel continue to fight fires on our lands and our Parks the Departments more than 7,000 law enforcement officers and park ranger served and protected over 500 million visitors to the lands in waters under the department stewardship in 2020 and 2021 our scientists and field technicians continued to gather data and work in their Laboratories simply put the employees continue their important work under very challenging and approach for doing so we are very proud now them of people work in person on the ground or a department facility for facing employees who provide core Mission delivery functions with our public land Recreation areas Parks and Wildlife refuges because of type work they do these employees are generally not eligible for regular telework a smaller portion of our Workforce Performance Mission support roles that are not public face and are often able to be performed telework in remote posture the infrastructure is provided the capability for our mission support employees to effectively communicate and inner interact in a secure environment these employees and occupations such as information technology human resource act Human Resources Acquisitions management financial management and other similar support jobs possess highly portable skills that are in very high demand in both the public and private sectors this group of employees is generally eligible for regular telework and in some cases remote work over the past several months the department has been reevaluated in our work environment posture and response to OMB 23 - and the conclusion of the public health emergency to ensure our decisions regarding work environments continue to improve our organizational health and in September we implemented requirement for teleworking managers and supervisors in the national region to begin working at least 50% of their time in the office in mid December we ended this provide all non-bargaining unit employees in the National capital region that they will begin reporting to the office at least 50% of their time beginning February 11th taking these steps will ensure that over 70% of the employees in a national capital region will be working in person at greater rates nationally according to our latest payroll data Interiors Workforce is performing work in-person person 65% of our hours the department has also partnered with the general Services Administration to work to maximize efficient use of both government Department owned and GSA provided spaces into past year the department developed a future works workspace strategy and in partnership with GSA chartered multiple implementation teams at high priority locations that are tasked in identifying space reduction Targets in administrative facilities as we can continue to work with OMB office of personnel management GSA and other agencies we continue to seek opportunities update our as appropriate we expect work policies along with our use of telework and remote work flexibility will continue to evolve over time in response to market trends and Mission needs based on our experience before during and following the covid-19 pandemic we believe the hybrid Workforce model that we're operating in now is one that works for the Department in fact for the Department to remain competitive for the talent we need in the future especially in Michigan support occupations we believe it's essential that we continue to offer workplace flexibility such as telework and remote work we recognize that our current hybrid Workforce model may need periodic course adjustments and the department senior leaders remain committed to finding effective ways to enhance our ability to continually monitor measure and evaluate agency performance well the Department's Mission always comes first we can't make it happen and deliver for the American people without our amazing and dedicated Workforce it's because of our it's because of our employees and the passion and commitment they show for their work every day that department was recognized in 22 2022 among the top large agencies in best places to work in the federal government discussing this important matter with this subcommittee and I'm pleased to answer any questions you have today thank you Mr Green I'm now going to recognize the gentleman from Georgia for his five minutes thank you Mr chairman Mr grain appreciate your service is your role let's see deputy assistance secretary for human capital and diversity Chief human capital officer Department of interior man is your business card like the size of legal paper that's a title so in your role has deputy assistant secretary for human capital and diversity Chief human capital officer Department of interior your policies you don't know only oversee telework but you also oversee diversity Equity inclusion correct but my role is is really over the telework policies and remote work policies human capital related things but not necessarily the equity diversity the equity and inclusion is it is included in that that's included in my title due to the fact of our candidate pools are here to quick because man five minutes flies so in a memo to the fish and wildlife service employees Martha Williams is the director she she wrote that diversity equity inclusion work was her number one priority now Mr Green can you please explain why the fish and wildlife service is prioritizing Dei and issues ahead of the services stated Mission which is to conserve protect and Hance Fish Wildlife plants and their habitats the the and the administration prioritize diversity Equity inclusion and it is an important aspect of all week that's our number one priority but for fish and wildlife I cannot answer specifically why she talking General you think the fish and wildlife service should prioritize Dei initiatives over conserving protecting Fish Wildlife and their habitats I think it should be priority that supports that mission like also in March of last year the fish and wildlife service they they excluded participation and Dei groups from their service caps which allows about two hours for employees to use for during work hours for resources and employee organization type meetings so as a result fish and wildlife service employees they can spend as much time as they want on Dei initiatives instead of working in their official own Duty duties can you explain why participation in Dei employee organizations are from the service cap no I cannot I'll have to take that answer that question back and we could get you an answer for that so how does unlimited participation and Dei groups serve the American taxpayer who who pay service employees to protect Fish Wildlife and habitats our mission delivery to the American public is the number one priority and deaia is an Administration priority that fits into all that we do on that Unlimited on the yeah but this is let Captain two hours on what their mission is okay uh Mr Green you know I'm sure you would agree with me that since humans are part of the animal kingdom correct and and you and the Fish and Wildlife service is focused hard on Dei so I'm gonna ask you have seen any evidence of lack of diversity equity and inclusion in other animals in Animal Kingdom say like maybe the rainbow trout horny toad the red cocated woodpecker I'm not an expert on all of those things so I would be able to answer that question but I thought chairman Nya I would have asked about the common [ __ ] chafer but his Department doesn't have any jurisdiction over them since they live in England so so with that I'm gonna yield back the balance of my time I think the gentleman now the gentle lady who just got here from New Mexico must stands very the ranking members recognized thank you Mr chairman well I heard today's hearing was about telework so I thought I'd give it a try just appreciate the opportunity to come and speak to our experts and to have the department of interior in GAO here thank you all for being here today I think our entire economy and workforces been transformed since the pandemic you know millions of people all around the world have changed the ways in which they're working and we actually see increased productivity and Effectiveness and people's jobs when they more flexibility around how they manage their own days be clear telework and remote policy actually works and it works well workers want it because helps reduce stress it helps to avoid commutes it gives them more time on the job it's been life-changing for parents military spouses employers helps it because it like use it because it helps them Recruit new Talent especially in the younger Generations as much of our federal Workforce is in the retirement phase of their lives and it's clear that this is become a talking point here in this Congress I was thinking about this as I walked over here this morning I mean this is one of literally dozens of hearings we've had this Congress about telework policies and I find it strange that we're obsessing over this while we're on the brink of a government shutdown and haven't been able to fund a foreign aid package I mean we have real serious issues right now that our country is facing and so to be spending this time in hearings on telework policies seems a bit bizarre to me so you know we're facing real challenges in this country and the department of the interior of course employees tens of thousands of people and they're all over this continent they're doing everything from managing fish and wildlife to our national parks to serving the 570 plus tribal Nations that are part of the Great fabric of this nation and trying to fight climate change in this last year we know that we saw the hottest year ever on record so you know think that it's clear that it has not impeded the ability of the department to deliver on its productivity I also want to just take a moment to address the comments of the previous speaker in the Dias here the reason why we value diversity in the workforce is because our society is diverse and for far too long you have visionary policies and practices that did not allow people of color women like me to serve and positions and that is reflected across our federal Workforce and so we're trying to make sure that we have a federal Workforce that is reflective of our society that there's opportunity for every single person to participate and to serve our nation and that's why we value diversity and I think really reflected and not only the priorities of the Biden Administration but the fact that right now we have the very first cabinet secretary ever in our nation's history who is an indigenous person Veterinary it's historic and it's important so I do want to just lift that up for a moment but I miss Locke I know you're here to talk about your work and Analysis looking at telework policies and I want to ask actually about GAO which of course is an affiliate of our work here does GAO allow its employees to work remotely we can work remotely or do telework and have you personally found and members of your staff found that it affects your ability to perform good or bad can you turn on your microphone we we assess the suitability of each position at GAO to determine if those positions could telework and so those that were suitable for telework they have no impact on our performance and in fact in 2023 we exceeded our savings by 20 billion dollars in a telework status which is another reason of course both the private and the public sector are seeking to increase opportunities for telework is not just that flexibility for employees but it saves money for employers as well and Mr Green you know you oversee the human capital Enterprise for the 70,000 Plus direct employees of the Department of interior how you seen telework effect the productivity of the department we we have a very unique Mission set in that many of our employees are public facing so 55% of them are already working in person every day according to our payroll data 65% of our employees are working in person every day and we measure our organizational performance by the measures in our strategic plan and my understanding of that is that we've actually increased in many areas in performance with telework and we're also seeing higher levels of retention of our employees and better scores on our federal employee viewpoints surveys around Employee Engagement the the tools that we have now the technology allows for managers and employees to stay connected and work together and so jobs satisfaction is actually even higher according to the federal employee Viewpoint survey thank you Mr Green thank you Mr Green I think that's a really interesting point for folks who don't work in the federal government they may not be familiar with the federal employee Viewpoint I'm a former fed myself I used work at OMB the Branch actually and one of the things that you see is that year to year as the surveys are done they're really a barometer of the health and well-being of our federal Workforce which encompasses millions of Americans of course and workplace satisfaction is not just a matter of people being happy in their jobs but it's it's matter of National Security it's a matter of the federal government being able to carry out its mission and it's a the ability to actually serve the public and all of the different things that the department does so I just want to emphasize what you just said Mr Green so you are saying that as a result of the changes and HR policies and the increase flexibility you've actually seen improve in overall workplace satisfaction and Recruitment and retention that's correct I don't I have any other questions thank you Mr chairman we should be welcome thank you so Mr Green in regards to the public face of these agencies and that publicly is being in person like at the Bia not everybody can just interact with an email or telework can they now our like the GAO Miss Lockett stated we go through and evaluation process it's mainly Mission support non-public facing non folks that have jobs that don't require them to come into a facility to do many of the duties that they're assigned that can telework most of our employees are public facing they have to come to to do work on the land and engage with the public every day so the next question for both of you in the past we've held hearings in regards to department of Interiors security codes in their passwords how is that issue been effective and been during this time of telework and tele remember what we're learning Miss Lockwood John go first on that we have not looked into their security codes but I can tell you that during the peak of the pandemic when we were all in telework status there were cyber security issues that popped and fortunately entities like OMB DHS and nist put out practices to help keep agencies safe and in addition the the security officers were working remotes so they could address those security threats and put out advisories about them but I am not I do not have an answer for regarding the well to to your point there I think you alluded to the problem is being it's much more to fuse if people were reporting for Duty here in Washington DC they're more located in one area maybe easier for the security evaluations and upkeep would not that is not my area of expertise so I can't respond to that okay Mr Green would you like to respond to that that's not my area of expertise either but I can't tell you that there has been major strides made with our office of our CIO our chief information office with leveraging new secure technology to get a specific answer to a specific question I would have to refer back to our experts back at the to get an answer on that so once again to Mr Green if you're encouraging full-time use what what percentage of of DOI is full-time job participation in phase all of our employees whether they're teleworking or not are working every day to deliver for the American people I would say that again we have 55% of our Workforce is public facing and they have to come to the land every day to do their work and so the balance of the folks are allowed to tell the work either at an ad hoc basis periodically based on situation or have regular schedules where they can tell the work from one up to eight days per pay period of telework to in your in your evaluation is there been any area of expertise within DOI has been shortchanged with this or that it doesn't like this type of looking at our individual employee performance management system we're not seeing any individual employee performance issues and again as we evaluate the department on on our performance as a whole we look at our strategic plan and we're actually seeing an increases there and we're actually seeing better results on our federal employee Viewpoint survey around Employee Engagement how connected they feel to the mission of the agency how they could feel connected to each other these tools are vastly different than what we've had in the past five you even years ago there was the tools were not available for employees to engage at the level that they are able to now it's amazing what technology will do I mean can in person I mean you and I can be know different sides of continent and we can definitely see each other to each other see every Expressions all sorts of 74 so so I I to come back to the Native Americans are there shortcomings in some of this aspects you know Native Americans I can think of a few because if you're going out there and you don't have they don't have internet it makes a really really tough to have application in that aspect would you agree could you of comment on those there there's always been challenges where internet is available but again I would just have to specific circumstance I'd have to know a little more I could take back and get answer about that but I would just say that as a whole even the Bureau of Indian Affairs they're one of our our bureaus that actually has a higher percentage of in-person work than than many of our other bureaus there they're in about the the 79 80% range last I checked on in person work so so we haven't seen tell the work as being a challenge related to that or the technology because we still do the vast majority of our work is done in person I guess once again you kind of made that point certain degree is that of your Native Americans or your Indian Affairs folks are in person he got more help and and kind of follow through and guidance in regards to Federal registry right I think you would see that out in all rural areas and because we have folks in 2400 different locations provide and service to the American public and I think you would see that that same dynamic you know we don't have a large concentration of mission support people in those locations those are locations where those folks are delivering Services directly and so you would see a higher percentage of impersonal work there because their jobs just don't lend themselves to tell the work or remote work and you know even in Alaska you would see higher percentage of those as well you'd see a better performance or about the same performance I think in most rural areas you would see that I can't speak to Alaska specifically as far as that particular data point I'd have get that but I would say I think that you would see that in most rural areas anywhere where you'd see a headqu firstcation like the national capital region that's where you're going to see a concentration of some of these mission many most of these Mission support roles and those just happen to be the ones that that the work that they perform they perform work here for folks all the way the country and they're able to do it because of the secure technology and those are the folks that are able to tell a work in some cases there's remote work opportunities there as well lock have you seen any changes like it's your input in those same things in regards to Native Americans from that so what I will say just visited the territories on another Congressional request and DOI was part of that review and in talking with them we did ask about telework and the in particular Fish and Wild Fish and Wildlife officials as well as National Park Service officials stated that since they started offering telework they're pool of applicants open they had a larger geographic area to choose from and more skill sets to choose from with that being said they also acknowledged that while recruitment intent retention had improved that not every position was suitable for telework because they had to be in person but they said even if they offered one day a pay period to telework when when those individuals who normally have to be in person just had to do administrative stuff behind the computer that was beneficial to them well I find this very interesting that we stumbled I'm banging kind of blindly in regards to the covidash National Emergency that we stumbled on this kind of this and and we're seeing some results in regards to that so it very interesting that we've gone down that road okay questions well he's got to tell thank you Miss lock Mr Green for your Indulgence today we appreciate you I wish that some of the other agencies would come forward we surely appreciate them doing that I think the witnesses further testimony the members of the committee may have some additional questions for you for the witnesses and we ask that you respond to these in writing under committee rule three members of the committee must submit the questions to the South Community clerk by 5 PM on January 23rd hearing record will be held open for 10 business days for your responses if there's no further business Community adjourned thank you