Jim Gianopulos on Making Successful Movies, Greenlighting Projects & More | Don't Kill the Messenger

[Music] there's a little known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of known as the audience test preview the recently released book audience ology reveals this for the first time our podcast series Don't Kill the Messenger brings this book to life taking a peak behind the curtain and now join author and entertainment research expert Kevin getts there's a green lighting rule that I advocate for often it's in my new book that I'm writing right now called how to score in Hollywood that is every movie if made and marketed for the right price should make money the other thing that I advocate for is make a movie for everybody if you're particularly at a studio make a movie for somebody but don't make a movie for nobody demographically we'll talk more about that in a little bit my guest today lives by those guiding principles and has lived by those guiding principles for quite a long time time I have such respect and affinity for my guest today and that would be Jim gianopoulos in indust Street Titan he has been in our business for over 40 years four decades and what's amazing about Jim is that he has had the opportunity to run not one but two major Studios that would be 20th Century Fox and Paramount Pictures the films that he's been involved in and with r change from the nobodies which we'll talk about that happen to win Academy Awards like a Birdman and 12 years of slave and Slum Dog Millionaire to movies that were for somebody like Sonic the Hedgehog Ice Age devil weare's Prada and life of pie and then of course movies for everybody like Titanic and Avatar and most recently the Revival of a franchise Maverick Top Gun and kept that mission impossible franchise alive and well and strong it's just an extraordinary number of accomplishments and I have to tell you that in just three years when Jim took over Paramount he took a studio that was at an operating loss of nearly $500 million a year and built it in that short time to being a significantly profitable Studio I remember 2 weeks before he got the job we had lunch you were actually offered another job and you were debating should I take that job and I said well you know Paramount Pictures if they come knocking would be a really great thing and I remember you saying you know Kevin it's really hard to turn that Battleship around in the harbor and it takes a long time to do it well my friend you did it Jim welcome thank you very much Kevin it's great to be with you dear friend for many many years oh well we have been through I feel like it's Warfare in a way you know let me start off with something because we're both Brooklyn Boys the year is 1952 oh God and you were born in Brooklyn yep Greek parents y both Mom and Dad yep I bring that up because you are so proud of your Greek Heritage I didn't have a lot of choice well but I feel like you have taken it to almost another level like you visit Greece every year you've been doing that for years and years it's a cultural identity that you know my dad took a different approach than many immigrants many people want to assimilate as quickly as possible and I remember even as a kid he said you know you're going to be American the rest of your life first you got to be Greek and I spoke Greek with him until he died I was raised they spoke Greek uh in the house not my mother my mother was much more fluent and he spoke he built a big business but he always spoke with big ACC and he was more fluent and fcil in Greek which was a disadvantage to me especially as a teenager what was his business he was in the shipping business wow yeah did he encourage you to go to law school well I think they were very proud when I did it but just to go to college was probably going to college was actually yes that was a big get and they were very proud of that and I decided after that that I did want to go to law school I first wanted to be a blues guitarist and I realized it was never going to be Stevie Ray vaugh make a living on it so I decided Well maybe I could be their lawyer and so I went to law school as an entry as an opportunity to get into the entertainment business now uh being a lawyer young lawyer you get out and what's your first big job my first big job actually came out of my time in Boston I was very involved in the music scene and I had met and known a lot of people that went on to musical careers and three as a guitarist or as a no no well but I played but not really seriously I just knew all the key musicians in Boston rate in particular I was a Bonnie groupy for many years as her career took off anyway one thing led to another and I got a job at ascab it was like the greatest job in the world even though I wasn't paid very much but the job was basically to reach out to musicians songwriters record companies Publishers to just go out there and pro soltize for ASCAP and make deals to bring their publishing rights and their music rights into ASCAP in the process of that I kind of knew everybody in industry you dated me with the 40 years I mean every time I hear that I think that's been a long time I'm only a few behind you man well still but I mean you reflect on it and it's just what a you know I know long strange ride it's been and when all of a sudden they created this industry this this new technology called video and and the movie companies realized they didn't have music rights and so somebody said well who do we get to go figure out these music people and I was actually dating this girl that worked at NBC at the at the time and she said well my boyfriend knows all those people and so one thing led to another and then I got this job and the next thing I know I'm working at what was then a joint venture between Columbia Pictures and RCA and so that one thing led to another led to another and you know how did you get into the movie business I started at RCA Columbia Pictures running or as the number two guy at the video division which took off like a rocket and that was just the perfect place at that point it was like printing money in a way it was some people in that industry thought that they had invented water and it was they're doing look the business was an obvious great attribute and great opportunity for people to see movies that they didn't have access so one thing led to another and then I part of that job was actually another kind of exotic job which was to go around the world and set up all the operations for Columbia P oh wow so it's like go to Spain hire this the first time they had their own International operation this is like the birth of the business good to be in the right place at the right time and at that time for the listeners who don't know the percentage of America versus International or foreign was what no it was 010 8020 yeah and you know these people with blue blazers would go off into the international markets and come back with money and nobody really knew what they did and it turned into a business and so that job entailed going around the world going to Spain hire managing director hire marketing head hire bunch of people Finance people whatever go on to Italy let's do it there and so as a consequence of that really learned my way around how many offices did you open oh God is well ultimately one way or another either our own office or some kind of relationship joint venture distribution deal probably 60 we kind of opened the world you know that's EXT and and the overhead to support that was extraordinary wasn't it yeah but it was worth it it didn't take very long before this medium just took off basically at the time you had three broadcast networks people didn't have anything in more movies beg got more movies exactly and so you know along the way the HBO was building and growing and so forth but all of a sudden you know there were 3,000 movies down the street for $2 that was a SE change in people's entertainment habits absolutely I'm going back to Brooklyn for a second I can't help it so you're a young guy a young Jimmy dreaming of Music probably so I my grandfather was this wonderful man an immigrant and he liked movies but mainly he liked hanging out with me and he also wanted to improve his English so he used to take me along to the movies first movie first movie oh God Samson and Delila I think can you imagine that stands out because I thought it was actually pretty cool at the time but he was not discriminating about what movies we saw actually was usually Geographic to the theater remember a movie called The Collector I don't okay well it's about a guy who basically picks up women and keeps them in his basement it was a breakthrough film wow at the time it was a British film so he took me and I was like eight or nine years old it was just like now today they'd call Child Protective Services exactly yeah so anyway but we went to a lot of movies and I would always be translating to him people would be shushing us because they would hear anyway but I developed from that a love of movies and then when I was in college I was you know going to end the war in racism and do all of that I was in political science but I saw these elected and the electives were Cinema studies and film appreciation stuff like that but wait a minute you can watch movies and talk about them and get credit for it I'm in who are some of your early influences like filmmakers oh Marty SCH says he was I remember seeing Mean Streets when it first came out and thinking who is this guy I mean it opens up jumping jack FL I mean it was just like ridiculous and I thought this guy's a genius how come people don't know about this movie what about John C of course well look you know we claim when you claim all the Greeks well that's what I'm trying to say cuz you know Jenna Rolland happens to be one of my closest friends oh wow and she's still with us in Palm Springs I met John at at the end of his life did you I never had the opportunity to meet him finally met him yeah but I can't help thinking about the Greek connection but he was such a renegade filmmaker and what they did and Jenna still owns the house that they shot Woman Under the Influence by the way the house he probably mortgaged three or four times over the course of his career what I love is they went off they'd make a movie for money to pay for the movies that they wanted to make which was so genius one after the other which is part of what you go back to when you say that the privilege of running a studio and look they're tough decisions and and you have to be responsible for them and you have to bear the consequence of them but it's very different when you're someone like John cassavetes or any many great producers over the years that made one after the other and hope the one before worked so they could afford the one they wanted to do next part of what I have always I guess admired about you but also really connected with you on is innately you're an artist well I don't know about that I certainly appreciate the art form I mean you can't be around you're you're not only an appreciator of it you're a fighter for it and you have fought for it you don't Greenlight movies like the ones I mentioned earlier and certainly don't think you're going to win Academy Awards for them but your old partner Tom Rothman likes to say you know look it's this fiscal Prudence mixed with this creative kind of uh risk and uh I know you've always lived by that and it's it's it's hard but you've had such a reverence for the artists involved I've watched it I've seen it the filmmakers the respect that you have look you have a fabulous and wonderful Greek temper I've been on the someone's side of it before but at the same time you about as Fair as they come well thank you for that I mean for all of that you know and I'll I'll take the temper too occasionally but but you also are one you get out oh yeah it's over it's over oh it's over yeah yeah which when I first got somebody said that to me and I was like he's like a Jew just don't don't take it too seriously my amazingly wonderful wife an who is a wasp from the Mayflower took a little getting used to that cuz you know it would be like some burst not at her but whatever it was and it'd be over and she would be just still thinking about it the next day and I'm honey that was that's over that's done that's nothing anyway she and I have reconciled that the great you know I'm a big and fan well everybody is she's everybody likes her better than me so I'm used to that she's delightful she deserves it what was the one call you got phone call about a job that you went oh my God I just got fill in the blank well just about every just about every job you you know I got I mean but they had to be one that was like well when they finally made the decision and they put Tom and me together and Tom and I were really close friends who makes that call that was Turnin that was Peter Turnin called you my patron saint he wonderful man he is great man wonderful one of the I think one of the smartest people this business has ever seen did he call you and Tom like kind of at the same time to tell you both that you were going to be co-chairs like how' it work yeah ultimately he did the rumor mill was bubbling about who's going to get it you were there already oh yeah yeah I was running International and Tom was the head of production basically the way Peter said It ultimately could make the decision and put us both together which was sort of Genius it worked it's not a oneperson job well yeah and I think we had complimentary skills we learn from each other and it's also great even though I eventually ran Studios alone as Tom does now it's great to have and you always have someone the sounding board and someone that you really trust hopefully more than one inside the company but to really truly be partners take some of the burden and some of the it doesn't change the risk because now you're both in the soup if you've done it a lot of stars say that they say that I don't want to do that picture cuz I don't want the responsibility of the entire picture on my shoulders ultimately whoever says yes the great privilege to have that green light and you bring in voices and you ask marketing and you ask the international folks and you ask the video folks and but in the end you're making that decision what was his superpower Tom's really passionate really understands the nuts and bolts of production and the creative process I mean he's shown it over the years and what's Jim gianopoulos is superpower well I think some of that but also understanding the way media and technology is evolving and the way these markets are evolving I go to another lunch that we had in the fox commissary and I was saying I see based on consumer behavior that home video is really waning and you were like well it might be but let me show you when you picked up one of those little pieces little pads of paper they had there with the little golf pencils and you I think I may still have it you Illustrated for me the model of how it would really affect the studios in such a significant way and I almost couldn't believe it how the financial sort of backbone was home in the great years of the home entertainment and then ultimately the pay television business there was a net under every decision you made I mean things might not go as well as you hoped theatrically but you'll fill this pipeline of the video industry whether it was at Walmart or or Best Buy or or the rental channels so you ended up having created you know an awareness of the movie an interest in the movie people that didn't see it theatrically were still interested and there was a lot of money to be made you looked at the wall and you said imagine that I'm here and that's a bullseye yeah and look I can hit it pretty easily that's the difference between some of the movies The Great search light movies that they made you know like an X-Men a Die Hard you could be off a little bit on a big movie like that because of its pre-awareness and scale it might not have finished as well as you would hoped or in some respects but there was a built-in audience for that franchise or for that film and then you had a movie like you mentioned Slum Dog that's that was a bullseye so you got that at a turnaround didn't you from Warners or something search light had been so obviously successful artistically and commercially and in Awards and in every way that that at one point Warner decided to do a specialty label and when Slumdog came in it was a little Rich for search lights budget uh limits and obviously wasn't obvious on the page and so they reluctantly passed and it went to Warner Brothers and in the interval between the time of production and the result of the film The specialized label had been closed they just decided it wasn't a good deal idea after all and so you had these people who were looking at gigantic movies in the mainstream part of one of it wasn't made yet it was finished they showed it to them through the lens of people who were doing all of these massively huge budget and foxof potential movies they looked at this little thing and said maybe we'll take it direct to video and Danny Bole who had a long history with us at search light ran to his friend Peter rice and said hey I have a chance to take this away would you release it would you take it over Peter looked at it and we talked about it and he obviously said yes and the rest is history cut two you called us to test it we went and tested it I remember the recruit ratio was some outrageously High recruit ratio a recruit ratio means that for one invitation that you give out how many people actually show up ex and so free ticket to see it an average recruit ratio might be like an 8 to1 or a 10:1 ratio right a really great one is a 4:1 this was like a 25 or 30 to one and that was not helping the Cause right but when those scores came back y it was unanimous it was unanimous it was just such a winner from an audience satisfaction point of view but what's still great is because you can have the biggest most satisfying movie that no one still wants to see but your campaign was great the word of mouth the critics got behind it and it took a ball sack to do it and you all did that was what search light did better than anyone I still think they do it better than anyone even under Disney that cultivation of critical response the gradual roll out the letting the word of mouth catch up all of those not mediad driven necessarily until a certain point you know we always had this thing of the gray box we called it so a few weeks in search light would have a full media plan ready but in the early weeks when they'd open in two or four cities and let the movie breathe and find its audience and find its critics and critical response as it built we would hit a point where they'd be on a few hundred screens and they'd push the but either we pushed the button or we didn't but they were better at it than anyone they really are and as you said still at it before in the intro I mentioned making a movie for somebody for every everybody but don't make it for nobody when I mean that demographically is a movie like Slum Dog Millionaire is like a movie that is demographically challenged it's a psychographic identifier so for a studio what whoever is saying yes that is a risk and the fact is it's execution driven but every now and then one takes one as I like to say with you and people at search light is you actually earned the right to do that on a number of pictures not everyone has done that and perhaps if you were a different Studio you wouldn't have taken that chance well that was the business that searite was in was taking massive creative risks but as you said it broke the model a little bit but you still well yeah when Danny first brought it in it was expensive and they passed at first and I think they were hoping maybe that they could get Danny to pull the budget down a little bit but Warner was so eager to start out this division that they just said yes and they just greenl it so let's talk about the other side of that equation when we come back get a glimpse into a secret part of Hollywood that few are aware of and that filmmakers rarely talk about in the new book Audiology by Kevin gats each chapter is filled with never before revealed inside stories and interviews from famous Studio Chiefs directors producers and movie stars bringing the Art and Science of Audiology into Focus audiology ology how movie goers shape the films we love from tiller press at Simon and Schuster available [Music] now ever wondered what it takes to make it in the movie business peel back the curtain with 46 success film making 46 success film making is where filmmakers share their stories and the secrets it's beyond competitive out there there have been movies that taken me 10 years to get made don't wait to create like you've got to just keep making stuff tune in to 46 success film making for your dose of cinematic realness direct from the voices that have lived [Music] it okay so we're back here with Jim gianopoulos and we were talking about movies for nobody I want to really switch gear hope you don't make movies for I mean that is the one place you don't go yeah well I and by the way I'm aware of the double I'm aware of the double negative you don't start out that no never never you don't but the great thing is is that in this day and age in the streaming world you can certainly make movies demographically for nobody because you're not spending advertising dollars so you can find the needles in the hay stack right you can find the psychographic identifiers that bring people together which is a great thing for our business and it's as a result producing some great films but the movie for everybody mhm I want to say under your watch at Fox at least were there four franchises built oh there well like I haven't I've never added them up I'm talking new franch like new that you didn't inherit I mean Planet of the Apes yeah well that but that pre-existed I won't comment but it pre-existed and then you really made it that's true that was one of those times times when we finally decided to go digital with the apes and do it properly and it was an expensive choice we looked at it we went through a whole production plan and said well what about Prosthetics and yeah well we've done that and the right way to do it and to convey true emotion and to be able to make these Apes real characters in fact they were such good characters that Peter was still complaining so well wait a minute they're digital oh my Lord so you got to love that that was good here's how you know you have a hit you test the movie and Andy Circus is here I'm pointing to the side of my head right because there's a green dotted CGI figure right to the left and you're watching this but you're emotionally invested and the scores are huge at the end and you're like what happens when this is completed we'd always introduce the film with this is what it's going to look like now this is what what it's going to look like you can say that till the cows come home and people do need to make that leap of faith or Embrace that that concept especially with animated films when I did the original Beauty in the Beast and it was almost all sketches I want to say 85 90% sketches only like an uncolored coloring book and the scores were just huge and you just said a great story yeah and great music and these characters that came to life even in the coloring book form were so extraordinary and you could tell especially with animated films they're tested very early in the process and you really need people to use their imagination and carry those images of what the completed characters will look like and settings will look like and carry them over into sometimes the literally pencil sketches and the other great franchises Ice Age I believe right right was I AG almost almost got away that's unbelievable Almost Got Away had I shouldn't say but well we did we had a partner it was a nent animation division at the time at Fox and we had had some big disappointments and so now we have this movie and our partner got a little nervous and it was that blue sky or it was Regency Blue Sky was our studio oh got it and Chris wedge was the was the director and and and ran the studio and we had full marketing plans and they got a little nervous and said said guys we can't afford a big loss on this thing should we cut our losses should we cut our losses and sell it and I was against it and we were back and forth on it well you knew the international also it was but you know what it was actually even simpler than that yes Disney actually offered to distribute it with some unattractive deal but that was the option so they went to the court of appeals which I always called churnin and my argument was simple I said at this point we have all these people have been working really hard putting all these campaigns together and co-promotions and all of this here and all over the world we could go to them and say yeah you know what thanks a lot but we're going to give this to Disney or we could go to them and say look we've kept this because of the quality of your preparation and the effort you put in now don't it up and so that's what we ended up doing and then to our surprise it turned into Ice Age and and billions later yeah billions later and the kingsman was another one yeah yeah well how do you like I know all these yeah very good well yeah this what you said earlier about being part of the creative process with some really incredibly talented people part of the thing yes you know you get to be the studio head and all that stuff and make these big decisions and fly around all over the place the real privilege is to be with people that are enormously talented and to watch them take something from a blank sheet of paper to what we did in those research screenings or eventually into huge box office results and to be adjacent to Greatness to real creative Talent God that first ending scene with those explosions and that it was like on by the way on paper I tried to talk we tried to talk them out of it and it didn't sound right and it looked stupid and we thought it would look stupid and he said don't worry don't worry you going to love it it's going to be great it's going to be great and it was I mean it was way out there but it was great now you probably are known well it would be you and Peter and and Tom for and maybe even mechanic before that all sort of cumulatively or in some way making decisions on some of the biggest bet movies that we've ever had I mean talk to us about Avatar is it all a bet on Jim yes he had given me like a 20 Page version of Avatar called project 880 not long after Titanic and the time lapse between the end of Titanic and the beginning of Avatar was primarily about getting the technology that was adequate to convey those facial features and that emotion to be able to and to create that world so when the time came knowing Jim and loving him knowing that Titanic went substantially over budget whatever budget we were looking at because the technology was so new the imagery and all of the aspects of that of the film creation process was so new we knew that it was going to be a very expensive movie and it started out being an expensive movie people look back and say well you green lit Avatar unbelievable it really came down to a choice do you want to be the one who said no to James Cameron after Titanic or the one who said yes maybe it didn't go as well as you'd hop did you ever think that this could be my job yeah it's always your job you know you you because it was such a big bed well yeah but you screw up enough over time your batting average Falls below a certain level and it's always your job and you just hope your batting average stays above that well you've had an extraordinary batting average very lucky I remember when the first trailer came out it was not accepted it was rejected by a lot of folks these blue creatures to expect exactly I remember being on a call with you and others but I have to say Tony really sort of turned that around and we had that same thing happened with Titanic it was Glo Glo Glo and all of that and at the time P Bill had to deal with he took most of the slings and arrows but yeah we finally showed I think it was an eight or N9 minute reel or something and it just people went oh people went crazy people went crazy I always think of my job as somewhat of a consiliary or a rabbi or you know and hearing the behind the scenes sort of angst of when you have this much invested and then people are just not getting on board initially has got to be the most terrifying feeling I do well I got a call once from roer and he said what's happening with this Avatar movie I said well it's coming along you know the images are great and it's going to I think it's going to be really great and he said well how much is it cost I said well the budget was this but we're pretty much over that budget and he said well how much is it going to cost and I said cuz I never lie you know I you know tried to right always put a nice shine on it but I would never lie to him because he's too smart for that I I said honestly I don't know he said what do you mean you don't know I said well I honestly he not finished and it you know it's some of the tech is proving a little difficult but but it's looking great he said well is it going to be any good I said no it's going to be really great and he said well how do you know that I said because he won't stop making it until it's great and that's why I can't tell you what the final budget's going to be and he hung up on me God you gota you gotta love that story that that's a true story that's a true story Jim's mad at me when I told him that story that's not true I was always careful well yeah okay but it did prove but it's not about Jim's point of view Jim point of view but it had to be with your belief in Jim and managing rert which is like hey this is what am I hearing and what can do I have faith in you do you but you know actually ruper would get cranky once in a while you know we don't make enough for the middle of the country or we not to send you know it's a little Hollywood but he was always very supportive you don't believe in your lieutenants I mean I don't know what you're do he was always you know willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and ride with you and you know Cas screwed up he' get a little cranky but back to the Greek thing he would let it go the next phone call as well you and I have been through as I said probably scores of I want to maybe say hundreds of screenings over the last 35 years that I've been doing this and give me an example Jim from your point of view of a screening that really was impactful and that but for the fact that you did this you wouldn't have had enormous success and what was the change the one that stands out which is now ancient history is Cast Away we finally change the ending that was really no matter the quality of the film quality of Tom's performance the fact that we miraculously and a lot of this goes to Beth Gable but the fact that we miraculously made a movie that half the movie is in silence when he's alone on the island and yet it was so emotional and so powerful and then the audience just did not buy the ending and when it came to time to figure that out and we all went to Bob Zas and we never it was never going to be like a total Hollywood happy ending right but it needed closure and the audience and emotional satisfaction correct and the audience even though he didn't get the girl but at least he had closure and that made a substantial that made a substantial difference and in numbers as well yes oh yeah now what about I'm thinking of Sonic the Hedgehog yeah I mean first of all that was a stroke of Genius but that movie was you want to tell us about the initial rendering of the creature well the thing about you know I give a lot of credit to Jeff fowers the director and and Tim Miller and Neil certainly the producer brought it to us but Tim and Jeff did a rip a mtic you know he they did like this I don't know four or five minute reel that they mocked up and what it showed us was the attitude of the film that the film played on multiple levels it was fun for kids to have this great hero that was pint-sized but at the same time had an you know sort of an ad ude is a little bit of a juvenile delinquent but something that people could enjoy so we set out made the movie and had a great script all of that and comedy and all the rest and we tried to make Sonic from a 2d character into this 3D CG character and went too far so the bad news was the audience ripped us up I mean they were really pissed the good news is is there were millions of them I mean the outpouring on the internet was just massive which of course just reinforced the notion that there's a big audience for this historic but it's about how do you spend good money off to bad or do you spend or how do you say there was no choice we knew the degree of response on the internet was so huge that we said well we have this built-in audience and if we pissed them off the what do we got left so you know we we bit the bullet and I forget how much it was but it was in the M it was had to be significant it was yeah it wasn't fully animated and rendered at the time but most of it was yeah but the other thing was for that fan base to then say to them we heard you and we fixed it that's a mark of authenticity that you can't manufacture and you guys did listen to that yeah well you know and people in your own Studio Liz Rosa was so instrumental in in really shepher that I thought absolutely and others I wanted to also ask you about life of pie which oh Beth carried that on her back kept telling us I mean we all love the book we all loved Ang Tom new Ang from an earlier life there was another aspect to it you say you don't make things for an award that's true you make movies with fiscal responsibility but this was challenging we had a director who'll remain unnamed who actually at one point was on the movie and concerned about the budget and he came to us with a plan to do do it with a live tiger and a and a boy and he had this she did tell me but I I don't know I still don't know who the director when when she she said he wants to do it with a live tiger and a boy thinks he can do it I said well you're going to need more than one boy if you do it we finally bit the bullet so then Ang brings back the movie and Ang is a very spiritual person and there is a lot of spirituality in the underlying book people were so engrossed in the story and the pace of the story and then the out come that some of it was a little heavy it was a calibration issue was it was a big calibration issue and look you're talking about Ang Le you know one of the great directors of the one of the greats and it's always difficult at one point he asked me what do you think I said well you know what it doesn't matter what I think and it doesn't matter what you think it matters what they think it's not between what the studio chuckleheads think and what this great creative Talent thinks it's ultimately what the audience thinks and the best evidence of that is when you put it in front of them he's one of those guys who tests almost all those movies it might be reluctantly but he does respect the audience he does all of them do it's I look it's it is a little shocking when you've worked on something for years I mean people just St you know these directors writers especially the writer directors who created out of whole cloth the amount of time and effort and planning and children they're giving birth to children and so that's why I always tried when we do those screenings you know say look well you know we'll talk about it tomorrow to just keep it simple at the end of because when they come out of that screening room you know and there's this wall of Studio faces because no matter how much we tried to trim the troops that went you always had to have several people from marketing people from International weren from here something about Mary or borx or you know which were crazy numbers yeah Jim what give me a movie that no matter what we did right how many times we tested it it just couldn't get past itself even though it was a good movie you reminded me the Farley brothers and that popped in my head I think Peter would say that too they came to us with this brilliant brilliant idea this pitch and the idea was Guy meets The Girl of his dreams this just this dream boat he's never believed that he could be with this woman and then you know they eventually they get closer and then they have this ridiculously rockus amazing sex and it's just incredible and on a parallel track he's looking for his parents and some idiot private eye comes back and says I found your parents and they turns out that this woman is his sister or so he's led to believe and erroneously but that is now he finds out his sister so he's devastated and then it turns out she's not so the rest of the movie is him chasing this the the cring it sound you know it's one of those like what were we think collectively what were we thinking even the fares the audience could not get past that idea as we tried to create some marketing materials the whole gist of the movie is that pitch is that McGuffin it's the fact that that girl that he's just had this wonderful thing with is his sister oh but she's not even Ricky in the Flash you know the great Merill Streep is there anyone better I mean like but it's Merill stre they didn't want to see Merill do that they didn't want to see a mother couldn't accept a mother leaving her children for following her dream like that was not okay yeah I think if a if a man had done it it would been more tolerable how awful a statement that might be but the fact that a mother did it and then is coming back now to regain this sort of uh affection of her children didn't fly so let's switch gears to one of your most proud moments in the business you're leaving a test screening and you're saying I cannot believe this is ours this can't believe this is mine this is going to be a hit I am so excited remember a moment that particular moment oh many when I got to Paramount quiet place there was some that's the one I was going to mention I got there just in time to Green to say yes to a train that was already kind of of in the station and about to leave but then we saw it and and look at the movie was $17 million and it just looked at the quality of it I mean look it was a genre movie but it was lightning in the bottle it was just lightning in the bottle and you saw that audience popping out of their seats and that's the other thing about the research process whatever the cards say and you know I always advocated give people a way to write in a coh in a coherent legible way and we always struggled with that because people are with those tiny pencils and but you can also read the room as the film plays okay quiet plays you can just count them jump scares and the quality of tension and the engagement but you could also see the troughs in a movie you're just reading the audience from the back and you get a sense of you know when they're fidgeting when they're fixated on the movie when they you kind of feel a loss of their focus at times you I know you always count how many people left to go to the restaurant did they come back that so but you know you just get a sense of the rhythm of the film that way and the old Titans the old Studio Chiefs Louis B mayor and so forth all did it all did it all talk about it Sam goldn when my ass itches I know I got a problem you bet absolutely I was going to ask you about being in the room when Maverick was screened and it was to me a perfect movie it was a perfect movie we had to keep it on the Shelf for a couple of years I kept saying to people I promise you this movie is phen because you know we kept holding it back I saw Tom Cruz the other night by the way and he still acknowledges your support in such a big way no no Jim seriously it was the right thing to I know but come on you the pressure I can only imagine the pressure you got from your board yeah there was some serious pressure there what made you do it hold it off it was it was the right thing look first of all you see that movie in a world that under the massive impact of Co the early days it was easy theaters were close so duh but even as covid started to get under control people were still reluctant you know you're sitting there and somebody's coughing couple of rows over right so there was that and then you see this movie and Tom said this movie is going to do a billion dollars and I believed him having seen it yeah the question was how well will it travel you know the thing about that movie it's not it's not jingoistic it really isn't it's not even militaristic it's just about people coming to terms with their capabilities and to build a team and to demonstrate to come back to your roots come back yeah so it was I mean it played on every single level and certainly Tom was the moving force all along the way I know I can't say enough good things about him because he is just such a rallier of troops he's just has that ability you know we he came back for some more money and look we could see enough to know that it so it didn't make sense in a world in which covid impact was 20 or 30% of the box office even for big movies and today it's off about 20% across the board but then we weren't sure how much it would impact a really successful Powerful movie but if you just said it's 20 or 30% and you have a billion dollar potential sure it's not a lot of math to say well we should hold this until the right time what's the interesting thing that's happened is that and I knew this was going to happen based on the research we had done preco is that there were going to be actually more people going to the movies in the next 10 years but seeing far far fewer movies so I was just going to end with a question that because we could talk here all day which is tell me Jim where did things go in let's say I won't even go 10 years from now but five years from now does it follow the same trajectory as I'm talking about fewer movies major successes a lot of small ones that sort of are struggling what happens to movies is there a consolidation of screens what do you see I've been on the board of USC the cinema school for many years or 15 years I finally agreed to teach a course I have to just say this because I remember at our most recent lunch about a month two ago you said to me um this is who you got these these goddamn kids no wait listen you should be kissing the ground when you hear who the teachers were I called some of my friends is what Jim said okay he called Ted Sandos and Bob Iger yeah who else um JJ AB these are for how many students were taking selfies at the end of the class well I didn't realize that the lectures I thought it was like a 60 to 90 minute lecture I go up tell some War Stories and stuff and I find out that it's a 3-hour session each time times 13 how the am I going to talk about for three hours so what I would do is I would write a 2hour kind of overall lecture and then I reached out to friends as you said and they would do the last hour turned up they so the kids got to thing but the subject of the course was the future of creative content my second stupid mistake because I don't think anybody knows the future AI the most recent evolution in AI which I think is going to transform the business enormously it's obvious to say at this point hadn't even happened yet but back to you know I do think theaters will always exist I think there is something unique not just in the collective experience of being in the theater but there's also something to be said and that's why some truly devout theater goers are always annoyed by somebody texting or on their phone or annoying is it's a single-purpose experience you bet you put yourself in that room for the sing you're not talking to your friend or your wife or your spouse or your whatever you are there to experience this film along with everyone else but that's your single purpose and you might have a 60 or 80 or 90 inch screen at home you don't have a 60t screen at home so there's something to be said both for the scale of the experience and the nature of that I think will always exist now the other thing that I said all during this period when media keeps coming back and saying what do you think is going to happen there's so much to watch at home it's not like people just found out that there's stuff to watch at home there's been stuff to watch at home in an almost unlimited amount for 20 years yes the streamers have put a lot of new content and exciting content and a variety of content all that good stuff but it's either stay home or get off the couch so I think that will always exist and I think that you know we've always said stay out of the middle those sort of MCM movies that always filled out a schedule filled out a slate I think there's going to obviously be fewer of those but if you see something like everything everywhere at once a very specific kind of movie a very ambitious creatively ambitious movie which found its Groove found its audience well became so polarizing but far more in the love category and in the polarization of that reaction there was curiosity you know and awareness so what's all this about how come he likes it how come she liked it and he didn't like it what let me go find out so there was something said right and and by the way I'm going to just change that word why did that person love it and that person hate it it was that kind of thing it elicited such an emotional and I think that was the genius of the movie and also why it won the Academy Award but also one of the aspects of studios in particular and I think some of the streamers are finding their way into theatrical releases now and recognizing the value of a theatrical platform but even if you stay with the mainstream Studios the idea that you can make a movie find out maybe it didn't quite reach your ambition and expectation and so instead of going to chase it with tens and tens of millions of dollars of marketing money let's just put it on the streamer and people will see it as part of their subscription and be quite happy or not and then alternatively smile we originally made for Paramount plus they looked at it and said holy this thing really plays so the ability to move films from one end to the other back between those two media I think gives a certain flexibility those who have to say yes to it to say look you know there's always the possibility in the greenlighting process in the green better understand that its financial model must lean towards the streamer and if you're lucky enough to have the opportunity for it to go theatrical then go back to the bank well I think it goes in both directions because you define your expectations at the outset you say we're making this for a theatrical what I'm saying you declare but then you find out that maybe it doesn't quite rise to that level and I think that's a great flexibility a lot of great films being made that justify their existence I just think that last scenario is the most scariest which is if you go in thinking it's theatrical you're almost getting to expose that you have to spend the money to to go theatrical why I think that is a strong model now is because most studios are smart enough to know that this is a big BET movie and we are going for it and the flexibility to me works better on the other side where you then make something that is meant for the streamer but could be theatrical and then depending on how it turns out then you can decide to spend the more theer you another studio in you no I don't think so I think oh we need you two two is plenty and I was privileged to do both of those well I think that you have so so much to offer and still and I learned from you every time I talk to you you're an extraordinary executive and even a more extraordinary human being and philanthropist and I just love you man I love you too brother thank you to our listeners I hope you enjoyed our interview I encourage you to check out some of the incredible films that we've discussed here today that Jim has overseen and there are a lot of them for other stories like this one please do check out my book Audiology at Amazon or through my website at Kevins 360.com you can also follow me on my social media at Kevins 360 next time on Don't Kill the Messenger I will welcome Wick Godfrey and Marty Bowen who produced among other things the Twilight Saga and the Maze Runner series until then I'm Kevin getts and to you our listeners I appreciate you being part of the movie making process your opinions matter the movie making process your opinions matter