Sabrina Carpenter: Short n' Sweet, Songwriting & "Espresso" | Apple Music

I didn't invent espresso. The song is not about me. The Italians are so mad. My espresso. You don't own espresso. It's what's so crazy. Like this is the part of me that feels like an idiot. Every time I see like a cafe, there's just a sign that says espresso and I'm like, yes. There's lots of ways we can start this conversation. Oh, it's Sabrina Carpenter, earth shattering, chart destroying, mega pop star. It's not where I want to start. Oh, oh my God. What's happening? Oh no. I want to start because I want to start. Wait, do you do this a lot? Are you going to serenade me? No, I don't do the Ron Burgundy trick very often. I don't pull the flute from my inner sleeve for just anybody. Are you about to sing at me? I'm not going to sing at you, but I'm going to, I'm going to talk about where things start. Okay. While? Because. Singing. Because sometimes like there's a lot of ways to start an interview and there's a lot of ways to start a song. Oh no. I'm going to cry. Because it's so amazing. Did you learn this? Dude. Right now? I knew it when I heard it because the chords are ingrained in me like they are millions of people because they're so beautiful. Yeah. So amazing. And when you heard these chords and they turned into Dumb and Poetic, which is heartbreaking and funny and acerbic and super dark at times and like, you know, Leonard Cohen will never sound the same to me again. I'm sorry to that man. I'm sorry to all fans. But it's so beautiful, man. Thank you. It's just, it just flows. Thank you. That means a lot. Well, I want to start there because, and rightfully so, people really care about the other songs right now because they're unshakably brilliant and they're everywhere. But I wanted to let people know that when they hear the album, they're going to go somewhere else because you've really made an amazing modern pop record, Sabrina. Congratulations. Thank you so much. I fucking love it. The sound effects! You get one real early on. I have none, so I'll just use my voice. It's by design. Only I get the sound effects. That's fair. How did you know you finished it? The album? Yeah. Very different from my last album where I questioned it until like the day before it came out. Like, is it done? And could I have changed it? And could I have written another song? And to be fair, I do have a hard time with the fact that I do feel like life doesn't stop. So like, it's really hard to tell when a chapter of your life should be bookend. What is time? Yeah. It doesn't really make sense other than the fact that you just have a feeling. I know it sounds very cliche, but you just know. And there was a moment where I just knew. And it wasn't even like, oh, and I wrote the 12th song. It was all of these things that I had been trying to kind of put into words for a brief chapter in my life that I was like, you know what? I'm good for the next week and I'm going to write another album. It's like I was just ready to close it. And also, I just will never forget this album for teaching me so much about myself. You can hear it. I mean, you talked about there was a lot of words, there was a lot of intention put into this record to try to close, as I said before when we were chatting, close the loop on some stuff. Yeah. And you can't help but learn about yourself in that process. I think that's the unspoken beauty of being an artist, that we all talk about the trade and what we get as fans and everything else. But not often do we really talk about the growth that you get to go through and the change that you become after making a body of work like this. How have you really changed, Sabrina? Like, where's the change? I've been thinking a lot about this this morning, and I kind of have been thinking about it in the sense of, like, it's one thing to be... People always say, like, is it scary to be vulnerable in your songs? It's actually not. It's becoming not scary to be vulnerable in my songs. It's becoming scary to allow everything about me to be misunderstood and to not let it change me. To let go. Yeah. To let go and to be stronger than the negative things that people say about you, to just not let it chip pieces of yourself away. But you're a 25-year-old human being who grew up in the internet. So then. Right? So, unfortunately, you're wired to listen. Totally. And so to cut those wires, to be able to allow yourself the space to process that information and give it the value that it's worth, which is zero. Zero dollars. So how do you do that? I mean, obviously, you haven't figured it out because it's a lifelong journey. But how are you practicing that discipline? So this might be why I'm an asshole. And I think about this a lot. I go, okay, realistically, yes, it's about... I'm not one of those artists, too, that's going to shut myself off from reading every little thing about me. I would rather know and accept it and be like, well, that's what they think. And I think this. Interesting. So it strengthens. Then just pretend it's not there. So you use it as a way to strengthen your resolve. Correct. And I think it's been instilled in me. I started posting videos on YouTube when I was 11. For what reason? I don't know why. Thank you to my parents. Well, also, thank you to your parents, but also like, I mean, yes, thank you. But as parents, you also got to like, you hope for the best, right? Because you're like, we're letting her do this because she wants to do it. But we don't know what the Internet is. This was like 14 years ago. And thank God they did, because I started reading mean things then and being like, wow. My parents were almost more offended than I was. And I had to be like, yeah, but they might be having a bad day. And I was like 12. So I try to go back to that mindset now when I think about the way that people receive things. But all this to say, I've been really enjoying my last few moments with this album as my own and then and then it being in the world. I hate to break it to you. It's mine now. It is yours, too. But you had very nice things to say about it. So I'm actually fine with this. And you got a great deluxe album title as well for your team. When you come out with short and sweet and an asshole and sweet and I just love the idea that you get to cherish it for a little bit longer. Most people in such a hurry get it out. And I think you obviously have such a good relationship within yourself. You know yourself enough to appreciate the work you put in and the music you have just to enjoy it. Are you still listening to it? Literally on the way here. I was like, gotta stream it. Doesn't count now. Not even counting. These streams don't count. Your manager's like, this is not going to add up to any Billboard chart stats whatsoever. Yeah. I'm not really helping myself. No, I also really love the fact that like kind of what you said, the things that people are expecting because of I think it was like a in a weird way, the last few songs being what they are, has been such a blessing to have people understand a side of myself that is so, you know, ruminating through the whole record. But I really love that people also don't, you know, expect. Don't know what's coming. Yeah. Like I'm a I'm a well-rounded person. You know, I like to believe that I have, you know, good days, bad days like any other person. Some things I find really funny. Some things I find not funny at all. What don't you find funny? Just like people. I mean, people. Honestly, so many people I don't find funny. You know, it's true. It's true. People can be unfunny. People can be so unfunny. Unfunny. Oh, my God. And that's honestly what inspired so many funny lyrics in the album. People not being funny. I had a real unfunny moment around people yesterday when I saw some people with some influence using it in ways I found really offensive. Should we go into that? No. Okay. This is a really good question. The other thing, too, about humor, it's it's so it's so dependent on the person. And that's been a it's been a tricky thing, because sometimes I ride the line. Just sometimes? Well. But this is the thing we talked about this last time we spoke. Certain people can ride the line and get to the other end. Some people fall the fuck off because they just don't have the thing that people want to but they want to root for. The other thing is, I think a lot of what I also really love about this album is is like the accountability for, you know. Oh, for sure. Just just being on your own ass as much as you're on everybody else. Absolutely. I will. I will, you know, call myself out just as much as I will call out someone else. And yeah. And I think that's the part of life that I mean, taste is not kind to you. No, no, you know, it's it's it says a lot about my own, you know, character in moments and mistakes that I openly allow myself to make. Oh, that's an interesting way to phrase it, because most people make mistakes and then they pay penance for it later and they almost reject the concept of allowing yourself. It was in the heat of the moment. I lost my temper. Something happened. But what you're saying is that there are moments in life when you allow yourself to have that experience for reasons only you know. And maybe that happened because I think about this a lot now because I started working at a young age. And so I never went to prom. I never went to like, I don't know, I never had like a crazy summer school trip in France. Like I never did those things. And so I think about life right now is like, even though I'm writing songs, I'm still 25 and I'm still living a life as a human being that like, I want to feel everything. Yeah. And that's got to be an interesting line to walk, because as a songwriter and someone who's becoming more and more visible, you know, people talk about how that affects your freedoms or your curiosities, because you have to check yourself at the door. But you don't strike me as somebody who wants that. You strike me as somebody who wants to actively try to reject those boundaries and those restrictions. I just don't want to live out of fear of trying to make sure that I don't upset anyone. God, what a terrible life that would be. It's really bad. And I know that that also comes with like the moment you upset people and they go... And it's so unfortunate. That you're like, well, I guess I know where my line is now. But this is why, you know, all this to say, like, you keep good friends around you that know like who you are. Well, I want to talk about friends, because you talked about being when you were young, working hard and missing out on some of those key beats in life that allow you to... Is prom a key beat though? Because I've heard about it. No, most kids don't care anymore. At least the kids... Well, how the fuck do I know? I'm so past prom. But from my experience of watching it through the eyes of some people, this is a dangerous line because now I'm clearly speaking on behalf of my kids. No, look, I think... Fuck, I'm walking away. I'm creating David. I'm walking away. I'm fucking walking away. We're learning so much about Zayn in this interview. That was not the point. That's okay. It's not going to go on. It's okay. But we talked about friends. I don't know. I think prom matters to the people who think high school is still a formative experience. I think some people can't wait to leave, in which case prom is a step in the direction that way. But I think for you, you didn't see a lot of that. So, did you make friends easily? Do you think of your childhood as being a life full of friends? By no means was it heaps and loads of... But I have made really selective friendships that have lasted me since I was a child, now. And I've talked to people about this. I really do sometimes, even when I start dating someone or when I meet someone for the first time, I like to know how long their friendships are. That's a great question. I think it says so much about a person. And not the fact that some people change and you have to meet people later in your life, because that's also important. Some of my best friends I met maybe two or three years ago now. But I also have some from when I was 12 or 13 that are still my friends that are really important to me. Also my sisters. Of course. How many sisters? I have three older sisters. Wow. And I'm the baby. You're the baby. So that's why I'm an asshole. This is the other thing. If anyone knows about that, that says a lot about me as well. So that says a lot for other people and then also for me as well. I really count on those friendships to kind of keep me super grounded. Grounding is a through line in this album in terms of the relationships that you're writing about. It sounds like some lost their footing and it sounds like some have established a grounding place for you. I do feel a thread running through this album of not just self-discovery, but also getting through the heartache and heartbreak that can really break you for a long time. I get the feeling, even with the humor and with a healthy dose of judgment in some of these songs, that you were hurting real bad. Thank you. Yes. I called it short and sweet for multiple reasons. It was not because I'm vertically challenged. I thought about some of these relationships and how some of them were the shortest I've ever had and they affected me the most. I think about the way that I respond to situations and sometimes it is very nice and sometimes it's not very nice. And again, the thing about albums, projects, writing songs, it's all moments. So harder for other people to understand that when they're listening to something that's going to take them through maybe a lot of years, hopefully a lot of years, is that I'm not the same person that I was when I wrote that. Yeah. We love to timestamp you at this moment when we made this record, like who's breaking your heart right now? And it's like, wait a minute. If it's a good one, you'll never let it go to some degree. I think. Yeah. And I've yearned for that. And I've always yearned for that. I've always yearned to care enough about a person or a situation or a relationship in my life that it provokes that much feeling in me. Because I think that's why we're here. I agree. But in fairness to the human connection, because I can relate, it's a lot to ask of people too. Yeah. When you find yourself in a situation where you're yearning for something to be meaningful enough for it to affect you, physiologically, spiritually, holistically, you know. You want your heart to grow a little bit more. Yeah. You know, you've got to pace it, man, and it's tough, right? And you get what you ask for, and then you come out on the other end either bruised and scorned or like a little funnier and a little smarter, you know, maybe both. Humor. Yeah. I love the way that you work with humor and that you embrace humor in your music. And I think that some people do it because it's funny, but I think you do it because if you don't laugh, you'll cry. Is that the place of... Is that it? It's the perfect way to describe it. And also, like, when you're at this point in your life where you're like almost at your wits end, everything is funny. Everything can be funny because it's all stupid. And it just feels like... And by the way, at the end of the day, what are we going to remember? Yeah. Really? Like, what's going to be in our memories? I'm really thinking about that. Because I'm old as a book. No, no, no. You're not. I mean, when I pulled the guitar for a second, you were like, oh, this is definitely an aging experience. It was. It was humbling for you. I thought I played it really delicately. It was so beautiful, though, and I will never forget it. All right. Moving on swiftly. But I was going to say something about what you were just talking about. What words did I talk about? Oh, this. How fucking funny you are and are being right now, by the way. No, you know what's interesting is whenever I'm with my friends, we always talk about the moments that we were all laughing so hard. Remember that one time? Oh, my God. And the funniest thing happened. But why is humor like the thing that sticks with us? It's like those are the memories that we really do hold on to for such a long time, longer than the moments where we were like fighting at each other. Whenever I've had fights with people, we always forget what we were fighting about. But whenever we had an inside joke, it lasts forever. So I know I know that that sounds like very simple when you break it down. But I think so much of this album was made in the moments because I it was something that I just couldn't stop laughing about. And I was like, well, that might as well just be a whole song. All right. Well, let's do an experiment. Can you remember without going into detail, because that's between you and whoever it was with, what the context of the last fight you had was about? I think it was it was something stupid about about my dog. Yeah, because my yeah, we got a new dog. And this is like, it's so stupid when you when you like break down like, right. He like shit in my room. But you got the dog, right? No, it's my mom's dog. And he shit in my room. So you had a fight because mom's dog shit in your room. Mom's dog shit in my room and no one cleaned it up. See, this is what we fight about. This is what we fight about. But then when you think about the fight, I'm like the dog shit in my room. No one cleaned it up. Well, I mean, yeah, my sister ended up cleaning it up. So shout out to Sarah. Thank you for doing that. I can't throw up if I can't clean up. You can't clean up. Oh, my God. I can't clean up shit. Do you have a dog? I do. Well, who cleans up your dog? No. Sorry. OK. I have two dogs. They live with my parents because I'm traveling a lot and I love my dogs. But then they come to visit. So I'm like the cool aunt. They come to my house. Do you know who writes songs about cool aunts? People who didn't have a fucking mom. People that didn't have a mom. That's a good point. This was so fun. Thank you Apple Music for having me today. I'm not trying to dog bully you. I'm just interested to know. No, I think that's funny, though. That's a really good question because it truly is like, you know, you think about the things that you last thought about and you're like, it's pretty. It's funny. It's kind of funny. And there are significant fights that will happen in life that are worth fighting for. And there are times in your life that you will feel like something shifted seismically underground because this was a real moment where it had to be resolved. And the only way through it was to push and pull, not physically, but like in terms of fighting. That's also why there's a song on the album called Sharpest Tool. And that is a big one. It starts in a funny way because like, I think about that song and then that song, weirdly, even though there's more emotional songs on the album, that one makes me the most emotional. The song almost ended up being actually completely different than what it was because we were way more zoomed in on that line as opposed to it just being something that you say and then you go, oh, well, you know, we almost kind of really went into it. And then instead it was like, actually, it is just a fleeting thought. And also because that's the way life is. You go, oh, actually, I never, we never really like solved that problem or we never really, we never really had that conversation and I'm probably going to see this person and we're just going to have to like, it's not going to be the right time or place because there'll be people. What's beautiful about leaving it open like that and just accepting that maybe you never will is that you get to sing it that way. And the way you sing that chorus and people will hear this song and this, and by the way, there is many different performance environments that you are putting us in on this record. Tell me them. Well, Slim Pickens is just like, I'm just, I'm in the bar, man, and I'm listening to you and I'm just an undiscovered singer songwriter. What are you drinking? I'm drinking. Well, if I'm in a bar, I'm probably drinking a whiskey or something with some Diet Coke. Whiskey feels right for that. Yeah. And I'm listening to you sing. And it's like, who is this singer? Oh, she just lives down the road. She sings on a Tuesday. Yeah. But you just fucking. She's local. But you're just owning this room. And it's just that song. To me, it's like, I know that Jack has already referred to this in Rolling Stone, but there's Aaron very early, early, you know, Morning Breeze, Dolly Parton going on here, like funky Dolly Parton. That's a very high compliment. Thank you. I mean, everything about Dolly. But those 1970, 1975 records are like fucking outrageous when she was really young. But then you go into this place like you do on Sharpest Tool and even on Don't Smile. There's relationships between these songs and the way that you're performing them, certainly in the choruses with a softness that carries a weight to it. Thank you. It does. But I just it's so nice to hear. Like, yeah, I just I appreciate so much the way that you hear. I love your ears. Yes. But as of very recently, I'm very protected and very grateful for them. I want to talk about Don't Smile because it's a real standout for me. Thank you. I love that song. I love the sentiment of like, don't you dare. Don't you dare walk away like this was something to cherish, like this shit ended and it should be heartbreaking. Yeah. Can you tell us a story about making that song? You know, it's funny. I usually really, really write from firsthand experience. Every song on the album is something that happened to me, except for that song. And that song did end up happening to me in so many ways, which is why it was easier to write. But the seed of the idea came from my friend that was experiencing heartbreak in that moment and a very visceral, like it was a very heartbreaking situation. And again, you felt it. I felt it. But also like a little asshole who was like, I'm just going to write this song. And I think that. But was your intention to take it and write a song because it was material that was worthy of being written about? Or was it because you felt it and felt. Well, also that saying is something that was just so it's like on every Pinterest board, on every sewn pillow that you've ever seen, like, you know, but the opposite, you know. Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. Yeah. And I was like, fuck that. Like, actually, fuck that. So, yeah, that was a that was a beautiful and also just so simple. I think wrote that song in France, say, in like 30 minutes it was done. It sounds like France was a really lucrative time for you creatively. It was. It was the the birth. I wrote half the record there, half the record there and half the record in at Electric Lady. And can you tell us, can you just describe your life in France while you were there and what it was like to write these songs? Because I love it. I love it. I love a free, creative environment. And it's interesting because I'd wanted to write in France my whole life. And everyone knows this. I kept asking. I was like, I just want to do a writing trip there. I just think it would be creatively inspiring. I was right. Turns out. And that was awesome. But went to this little town. Literally there was less than a thousand people in this town. It was called Cheyenne. And it was... I think I've been there before. Why? The driving through. There is just about nothing there. And at first I was a little nervous that I would go crazy. And then I did go crazy. And then... How long were you there for? I was there for like 11 days, which doesn't seem that long. But when you are writing every day, they start to blend. The days start to kind of like become one. And you were off tour too, right? I was in between tour, which is even crazier. Like my mind was in a place where it was like, there is just no concerns right now. I just need to write as I'm feeling. Because I had just finished, like literally the night before, I played a show in Paris. And then right after I was done, I went to Japan. And it was like high, low, high energy environments that were just... It took me a couple of days to sink back into writing. And then when I did, it ended up being all this stuff that was so honest, so emotional, so important to me because I was going actually crazy. Is that where you said goodbye to a lot of the old stuff? Weirdly enough, I said hello to a lot of things, I think. That's where I opened up what ended up being the album. That's where Espresso came from? That's where Espresso came from. Yeah. Stupid little song. But what a beautiful, stupid little song it is. My God. And by the way, some of my favorite songs are the stupidest, most beautiful little songs. It's so good. Thank you. I mean, just that moment where you just know that you've created something that's phonetically unique is just so... Phonetically unique is exactly what that song is. Do you know what I mean? It's just, it's like, okay, so let's get to the feeling because we know how it's all made us feel. When you stumbled, I'm sure, because you don't intentionally probably go that me Espresso. When you stumble across it, it sounds right, but you're like, it reads wrong, but it sounds right. You know what's funny? And I think I give credit to, you know, like Julian Bonetta, who produced the song, like that's the way we talk. I don't know how to describe it, but like when we're in the room with each other and we made nonsense, so a lot of this is adding up, you know, because at that point it was sort of like, there really is no rules to like the things you say and you're not writing a song with, well, everyone's going to have to understand this in mind. You're just like, what sounds awesome, what feels awesome and what gets the story across, whatever story that is. The story is just like, you know, you are that, like this is the confidence is what you embody. But in a way that was just so unintentional also. To me it's who my name is. I mean, I think it's like literally, hi, my name is, it's like, that's that me Espresso. It's like, okay, you really need to know who I am right now. This is who I am. Which I really was excited about, especially because that song is that unapologetically confident song. But I think for years, maybe people didn't accept that narrative as much as they are right now of like confidence felt cheesy or confidence felt put on. I think that's partly because of where you came from. You had to be confident even as a kid when you didn't have it. I mean, no kids, no kid at your age on those TV shows is as confident as what people are seeing on TV. Nope. Right? Nope. It's like your job is to be that confident. Yeah. And your, your job is also to like, say things that you don't think and have the world understand. I heard that you don't understand. Basically precocious on fleek. Right. It's just like, whoa. I mean, it's kind of coin that, but it's kind of what it is, right? It's like, it's like, Hey, your job is to go and present a precocious version of a kid who's more mature than is actually humanly possible. I've interviewed a lot of kids, people who are no longer kids who've come out of that place. And, you know, you can see some of them, it took a long time for them to figure out who they were. You obviously had to go through that too. How did you navigate that time? What was your, what was your transition process to get out of being on that road to being Sabrina here, the human being who above all the amazing music and the LOLs and this, I'm having such a good time. It's the fastest 30 minutes I've had in a long time, but I just want to say that you're a good person. Like it's clear to me from the times I've hung out with you very briefly, you're a good person. So what was that transition going on? It's interesting to reflect on it now because I, I don't feel like I've changed that much. I feel like the seed was always there of, you know, me always kind of having a direction and having, you know, an opinion and having an idea and steering a ship that was always there, whether people, you know, kind of want to believe that or not, it was there with a lot of obstacles in the way and a lot of walls that had to just be ripped down. And I think through obviously life experiences, through being humbled, through making the wrong jokes, like I really have, you know, kind of found this place right now where I definitely don't have it all together and I don't know it all, but I'm, I'm really happy with, with the current state of, you know, feeling like I'm comfortable in my body and feeling like I'm comfortable in my mind and allowing moments to, to be the moments that I'm in. And I think for a long time, you know, there's this idea of, you have to come out the gate and smash it. And if you don't do that, it's, it's almost like you don't know who you are, you don't know yourself. And I think I'm just one of those artists that it took a few tries and I don't even think of it as it took a few tries to, to be good or to be successful. I just think maybe for people to, to understand it and catch on to, to who I am. Because I was always like, I think about old songs of mine that I released when I was quite young, like 17 or 18, I put out a song called Sue Me and I was getting sued at the time I wrote that song. And I was like, I wrote a song called Sue Me and it was just like a very, it feels like me now, but before I really understood myself. And I think maybe it wasn't sonically exactly what I wanted yet, or maybe it wasn't fully written exactly the way I would write it now, but, but the ideas were there and like the humor was there and the cheekiness or like the, the, just the, I don't know, the direction. Well, the ability to face it head on. Yeah. This is the reality of my life right now. I'm being sued as a teenager. And blunt and sarcastic and you know, that was all, that was all there. Can you play those songs live? Can you, can you embrace those moments in time or are you happy to let them be? It depends on the song. So what qualifies? It depends on the song. I think a song that feels like it really still applies to me now versus a song that felt like, you know, maybe I would say that differently now. So it's interesting because what that says to me is that when it comes to entertainment, you have to be entertained above all else. And a lot of people, when they go on stage, right, they'll play songs because they know they're going to hit a certain, certain person a certain way, they're going to, it's going to work. But I've had, and this is kind of a bit of a shitty thing to say, I'll be the asshole. I've had conversations with friends of mine who are like, man, there were just days I don't want to play that song, you know? And I just, so that's why I ask you what qualifies because you never once said, well, you know, if the people want it, I got to play it. You were like, no, if I want it, I'll play it. There's been maybe a handful of times where I've been a generous singer to my, to my longtime fans that love an old song. And I've been like, you know what? They've worked hard for this. But yeah, but so have you. But for the most part. To not now. Literally. Yeah. I think that's the other thing. It's like, I've gotten to this place where I have so many other songs that I want to sing. Like we can just all collectively just like. Yeah. This album is a whole other level now. And I think it's going to put a lot of your music into beautiful context. What one of you are most looking forward to playing live? Wow. That's such a good question. I think I'm most looking forward to playing Dumb and Poetic live. We just did. We just did, actually. Yeah. So I never have to do that ever again. I am most looking forward to playing that song live and also really excited about Light A Girls live and Juno live. Light A Girls is one of those moments, I think, where it's like, you know, you're really in copyright territory, like just the term Light A Girls. And then to put yourself in the shoes of what girls are willing to do in order to sort of keep balance and try to figure your own way out through life. Right. I'll never understand that. But that song takes me closer to understanding what. I was about to say, what are you going to say about Light A Girls? Right. No, I think that's the tricky thing. Every time I've played it for men, it's sort of, it is kind of that reaction of like, you put that so beautifully, but I don't. That's such a mansplaining thing to tell me I didn't do that. No, no, no. But I'm saying, but I'm saying in a lot of ways, that is one song on the album that maybe is like, I hate to use the term for the girls, but it really is in a sense of. So what should I do with it? I mean, I don't think you have to do anything. Stream it. But I have to listen to it and listening to it, I'm going to feel something. And I think. So what would you like me to feel? Because I'll tell you. I don't like to tell people what to feel. That's fair. So can I tell you, can I can I thoughtfully tell you what I felt? Absolutely. I felt like I understood the dynamic between that kind of human and this type of human a little better. I think that's a good thing to say. Yeah. Did I get that right? I think that's a good thing to say. It is. Have you ever been on the receiving end of Sabrina's stare? Have you ever been like online when people like go, like completely take your words and twist them into something different? Man, that's probably gonna happen in this one, too, but it's OK. No, no, no. To me. Oh, my gosh. You'll be you'll be fine. You're a man. You'll be fine. Ow. I'm kidding. You're killing me. I'm so sorry. You're killing me. I'm sorry. No, this is my favorite. My intrusive thoughts. Oh, I have those. Do you know the maddest thing happened to me about a month ago? They went away. Was it the marine collagen? What did you drink? Exactly. I just started taking a lot of mushrooms. Despite what you tell me, whether they work or don't work on your album, I took a lot. No, I didn't. It wasn't that. Love that one. No, same. It's so funny. In fact, by the way, you give wellness a fucking beating on that song. Sorry. I know. You really do. Like you take everything we're aspiring to be and you just fucking destroy it in one verse. It's brilliant, but fucking harsh. It's the other thing that I've actually really that I've thought about of like people being like, this is how she feels all the time. It's like sometimes I'm into that shit. Yeah, I know, but you were just in that mood that day. You're in that mood that day. And also there's just been enough times where it's annoyed the shit out of me. And and someone's been like, I did this. And oh, my God. Like, I just it just changed everything. I'm like, there goes that story. I was about to tell you my fucking transformative moment story on mushrooms. Wasn't on mushrooms. It was actually, well, I had a medical open-minded. I had a medical thing. I had a medical thing that really that was really intense. And and I went and saw some people and they put me on the right path and they got it figured out. But it was bad for a while. By the way, that song's not about you. They're all about me. So I believe so. I believe. And her and her and Kat. And they're all right. You're right. You're right. Actually, that helps me tell everybody that. Stream the record. Tell everybody that. No, that but in that in that sense of like, I love that things can can heal people. Right. And I hope that that's not taken as as me just ripping apart everything. Oh, you're way too far into this interview to start hoping that things are going to get taken out of context. We are way past that. God bless. God bless. God fucking bless. God bless him, right? Yeah. What did you say, Rolling Stone? Fuck them all. That's not what we want. And it's actually, more importantly, not what we need. We don't. To fuck them all? We definitely don't need to do that. That is a long road to sadness. Yes. But no, what we don't what we don't need. Why would this road end? Sorry. It is not what we need. What we what we don't need is for artists to get into a place where fear drives truth out of the picture. And I feel like the year between when you made your last album and the touring you did and this album was that was the area, the period of time when you came face to face with your audience. For real, I remember seeing the YouTube videos when they were just theatres and you'd sit on the end of the stage and talk to the fans. You know, I'd watch these clips because we'd come in here and we'd follow whatever our favorite artists are doing, people are doing because we can't be there. And I was like, oh, she's finding her people. She's actually out there finding them one by one, finding her people. And they're telling you it's OK. We really appreciate you and you don't have to be scared. That's what it felt like to watch. There's probably more than just this group, but there's a really beautiful group of young girls that have been fans of mine since I was 14 that just have genuinely stuck with me through everything from the very, very, very beginning. And they're still at my shows today. They still come to every you know, I just did the Grammy Museum. They came like I just think that that's such a special feeling when, you know, it takes them through life and breakups and love and family and college. And because they're growing up, too. Yeah. So it makes me feel like, oh, we're we're literally just doing this together. And that's a really, really beautiful thing that I'm super grateful for. And which is also the reason why touring has everyone has their own feelings about it. But for me, I think it's it's created the space for people to understand that there's like a human behind songs, you know, there's a human behind music or there's a human behind big hair and like and crazy outfits like it is. And and I'm just having fun. And they're really, really supportive of of that. Yeah, that excitement stays with you. It's it's no matter whether you're in the arts or you want to go on and do anything else in your life. It's still an energy. There's a fundamental human motivation. It's positive motivation. Yeah. And I just think that I just think you like you were born to do it, but you work to get it. Thanks. Right. Sure did. Put the work in, man. You know what I mean? Still working. Well, let's talk about balance then. Because there's a saying I try to remember, right? And a song that I worked on years ago never came out, which is you can take everything you want, but will it ever be enough? And so and so what it says to me is that it just says to me, like, how will limitations present themselves? And will you be open to them? Because when because when we're in the height of what we're trying to achieve, limitations is a negative thing. Yeah. But actually understanding what you are willing and not willing to do for the benefit of your life is also really important to start kind of just practicing that. Are you aware of that or are you just like, I'm just not there right now? I'm 25. I want to get it. I think I'm I'm more aware than that. I know I am, if that makes sense. I think there's so so many like we were talking about gut instincts and just trusting your gut. And I I think that's happened to me a lot in the last few months. It's interesting because I've been working since I was very young. So there's this either perspective of like, you must be like, not sure how to handle this right now, or you must be so fine. And none of this is that crazy. And you're doing great, right? And it's a it's a very up and down. Every day is a bit different. You know, some days I'm like, thankfully, I'm equipped and I and I feel like I have the tools and other days. I'm like, what are tools? I don't even know what I don't know what's going on. Yeah. So I think I really do trust my gut in a lot of those ways. But yeah, I say no to things that feel wrong in my stomach. Like as simple as that. And I say no, if I'm genuinely just too tired, I have to there's there's days where I know I can push myself and days where I know like I'm making something so exciting. If I don't sleep then I didn't sleep and I was 25 and okay, like it's fine. Yeah, but if I got it in the tank, but if it's bleeding into this is a dangerous path for everything else and it's a domino effect. Yeah, then I got a nap, you know? Well, you're doing a good job of balance to me because and I say this with the greatest of gratitude that you're here. You're not I don't see you everywhere and I don't see you doing an enormous amount. I'm always very happy when that's the case and yet you still come in here. Very grateful. Oh, I told you I've always wanted to have this conversation with you. Is it going good? It's going well, I'll have to look back and watch it. No, I'm just kidding. This is this is so it's because of the fact that it feels so safe. Honestly, the fact that I said probably three or four things that people are going to be upset about is a good thing. That's a good thing. It's a good. It's a good thing to feel like you can just speak even if it doesn't mean it's always correct. You know what the end of the day mate? We're all just trying to figure it out and rock on man. You know what I'm saying? It gives me a nice little endorphin rush. I feel like I'm actually succeeding somewhere. You're not and I feel like my life isn't actually a little bit better than yours. Totally fine. I felt that way. I can still feel that way. It's an energy. I try to clap within two seconds. I was like, bang, get the fuck out. But like you're killing a fly. Gone, right? But it's not that easy. And I just I just think we got to be kind to each other, man. And that's an obvious thing to say. But damn, we are we it's beautiful living. Yeah. I mean my mom. I want to give her a shout out because I love her. One and two when a couple weeks ago was like it was a lot for me and I wasn't I wasn't doing too great. And I was like, you need to go outside and I want to you to put your feet on the grass and the dirt as stupid. She was like your feet need to touch ground mom. Your feet need to touch ground. They've been they've been touching the inside of your house or the plane or hotels. They need to touch the actual Earth and she was like and read. She was like, read a book, read a couple chapters, get out of your own life. She was like literally just just like be a person and I was like stupid. I don't want to do this. And I'm like going outside like taking my shoes off like so mad like, okay, my feet are in the dirt and clean up the dog shit. Okay. Yeah, but it was so sweet. And I and I and I really did. It helped me and I was getting emotional because I know me too. It's so stupid. No, it's not stupid at all. It's amazing. Yeah, and tell you like it's okay. You're doing great when you're like that's lovely, but I want to kill it. Like I just I can't I can't do this right now. So so that was that was advice that I will remember when things are a bit too much grass is crazy. Also, I'm allergic to grass found that out after but it's fine. I was allergic to grass as a kid as well. You can grow out of that. I can grow out. I think the more grass I touch the less allergic. I'll be. Oh, that's a very interesting combination of things. Isn't it's like I'm allergic to coffee. So I have to drink as much as possible. It's I don't know if that's is that a thing are people allergic to coffee? Well, no, I stopped drinking four weeks ago. I'm telling you transformative shit. You stopped drinking coffee four weeks ago. Didn't not that you espresso. That's not but I was me espresso for a long long time. And that's why I had a lot of me espresso. Okay, so I'm okay with that. You're those days are over. They're over. Yeah, but real easy to know not my coffee is not about you. Feels like a personal attack. Coffee is not about you. I didn't invent espresso. The song is not Italians are so my espresso you don't own espresso. It's what's so crazy. Like this is the part of me that feels like an idiot every time I see like a cafe. There's just a sign that says espresso and I'm like, yeah, it's like nothing to do with me. You're a monster. You're literally walking around every single cafe now just like that's that me espresso. It's no I don't do that, but I do have to question ordering it a lot now. Like I'm just like you had moments in that like where the barista is just like I can't wait. They're just like waiting for me to say it and I'm like you must be. Can I see your herbal tea menu, please? Oh fucking pretty. I love it. That's so good. I mean it must be it must be here. You kind of fucked yourself. I really was like a little bit you think about that and you're like, why don't I write songs like a billion dollars like manifest that? Yeah, but honestly music is a manifestation tool. want and how great you are and how the fucking I've got this. I've got this before I got it and then I got it. Yeah, and then guess what the music is like the largest selling music by the way, just that was just not running through my head when I made Espresso and that's on you because now you can't go by Espresso is anywhere without somebody going. That's that me Espresso. Yeah, or just thinking that I'm like conceited. I don't know. It's such a weird. I'm just like no one thought that because it's so fucking good. It's thank you. Oh you are we were talking about this before you showed up today. I look at us both of us drying our eyes and snorting. Yeah, snorting crying. I had like snot dripping down my nose. I was like, oh my God, don't make me cry when I made my makeup real nice. So you'll never know what that line feels like right? I've worn makeup. You have I'm a modern human. Did you have a guy liner phase? Like when you were younger, but I did have a frosted flat top phase where I went full frosted at one point. It was like dark time. Send me a picture. You'll find it before I do. Well, I mean, yeah, that shows up in your Google. You've lost your way. My explore page is terrifying. Well, we should talk. I mean like that. Let's go there. Well, no, I already have like four things on my that's how fucking simple my life is. Where do you go? I actually want to bring up Jack's explore page because the only thing that keeps coming up. You're gonna fucking air out Jack's explore page. Yeah, because it's it's this video of me. We talk about all the time. See this video of me from this Netflix film that I did a few years ago dancing. Yeah. And it's just this move where he's like, it looks like you're learning how to move. Is it? It's like a puppet learning how to how to become a human and he plays it every time in the now. Every time we're in the studio. He's like racking up collections of videos of me doing it for him. And you better be he better dance like John fucking Travolta to make a statement like that. I mean, that's I'm serious. That guy better be like fucking Fred Astaire for him to start calling you out on your dance moves. No, no, it's the funniest thing ever makes me laugh every time. But I just think it's so ran. Also, like the fact that that that I brought that up. He's probably going to be like, but no, it is really funny. What do you what's on yours? What are you always searching? I'm not searching like I want to specify that it just comes up. I think also now a lot of which is also scary. A lot of what comes up is like yourself or like videos to your song. So careful where you open your phone, right? Because all of a sudden you're like out in a restaurant and then like it just starts playing. And well, and then you have such a narrow vision of life. This is why the touching grass thing is helpful because you're like surely this this isn't surely I do own espresso. No, but but I really do like I think that's also why I go out of my way to like just listen to so much music in my free time and just talk about that. Yeah, we talk about what you love to listen to. Can we share a few things right now? Like I listen to Bee Gees every day. Like the Bee Gees are like my safe place right now. And my mom was like talking a lot about them yesterday because I was like, well, I don't think any of them were like all that attractive, but their voices were so stunning. Yeah. And she was like, no, no, no. When they were young. Yeah, they had a little something going on. Well, you know, and sadly, Andy, who passed away young. She brought up Andy. She said Andy was like her crush. She said Andy was like her literally celebrity crush. It's quite a heartbreaking story. The Bee Gees story for all of the joy they brought. And also, if you've ever watched the documentary, which is so amazing. I mean, how funky were they? That early stuff before they hit their hit stride. It's so inspiring. Oh, my days. They used every single chord, major and minor in three and a half minutes. I know. They'd literally be like, listen, mate, because they're from Australia. They'd be like, listen, there's only five chords. They're in the song. We need all seven. So it's got to kind of go, oh, we're going to do it like this. Then we're going to go like that. Up here, up here, down there. And it's like, what the fuck was that? Like most people go CG fucking A. I think you need both. No, I'm not judging. I'm just saying, if you can, use them all. Well, and that's where, you know, and I think I have a lot of fun with Jack, because he's really playful with chords. I mean, in the way that, you know, please, please is like a very... Oh, you changed the entire key on the second verse. Correct. Yeah. And I love it. Which we were so excited about when it worked. Because we tried it one way. It didn't sound right. And then we tried it in the second verse. And it was like... It's like a breath of fresh air. It's so fun. It's like a moment when you just suddenly go like, I'm in this groove. I'm in this song. I like it. And then it's just like, oh man, like it just got a little brighter. Which I appreciate, not for, you know, the people that are listening to music that don't nerd out over that stuff. Like, that's fine. But the fact that it just made us so happy. Yeah, we did. We pulled it off. Yeah, that's what it's for. And then that just brings my love of music like back every time those little moments happen. But yeah, the, you know, Bee Gees are amazing. And I mean, I've been listening to a lot. What's, and not to turn it back on you, but I really do love your taste. So I want to know like, what's your favorite record right now? I'm making playlists right now based on like real mood and I'm transition obsessed. So I'm like, so like I'll make a playlist that starts with a certain song and then I'm like, okay, but okay. So I'll just brain dump 15, 30, 50, 60 songs. I made a six hour one the other day. Okay. And then I go through and I'm like, I spent two days, like probably in total like 12 hours. Moving them around. Yeah. So that it just, everything is just like immersive and feels great. And so I'm really, I'm in a actually very sad, but a beautifully sad place. I'm listening to an enormous amount of like Tom York and Rye X and Justin Vernon and like sad PJ Harvey and just very, and like very emotive music like wing victory of the sun, very soft ambient string stuff. And yeah, just, you know, Billy Martin birds, man. Have you ever heard that song? I need to play it. I mean, I'm going to play a little bit of it. So you understand exactly what I'm talking about, but you know, I'm in a place where I'm really enjoying emotion and I can't always say that I did. I want to be somebody's daughter, a friend in the night, in the dark, in the cold, as she walks far away. Nobody's watching. Yeah, I'm crying. So, you know, I mean, yeah, that is where I want to be. Okay, so should we end the interview then? But isn't it good to feel that way? So good. Yeah, I, sorry, now I'm digesting. No, but I don't, the thing is, I don't even want to, I mean, I really appreciate being able to just sit there and to let someone do that for me. Oh, I love that. I, but I, in general, like, I think that's what, I've maybe always felt a little bit like maybe people don't understand my love of music. If that, I know that sounds kind of weird to say, but like I grew up where, oh my God, why am I crying? Now it's the song that's crying and then I'm thinking about my childhood, but I grew up with, like I lived in the middle of the woods. I was homeschooled. There's just a lot of time to think with and be alone with my thoughts and my parents, thankfully, like really introduced such a range of music to me at such a young age that I think as much as people, you know, see the timing of, oh, she was like actress turned singer. It's like, no, I just, I had such a hunger to create that the first thing I could do was a TV show. At that point, the me releasing music at 10 was not going to be digested, I think, as well as I would have wanted it to, but like the music was always my life, you know, and still is and I get so excited about things that move me, things that excite me, being able to capture feelings and into words and into melodies. I think melodies say just as much as words do. So I really, really am so grateful for what it's done for me, not to be such a nerd, but no one is going to question that again. Thank you. I think maybe one guy, but yeah. The moisturizer is stinging my eyes. Oh, it's good that you moisturize though. Some men don't.