How a finance leader turned a mental health crisis into his purpose

Welcome to Stocks in Translation. I'm your host, Jared Blickery, joined as always by the voice of the people, Sidney Freed. Before we get started, please, please be sure to like, subscribe, and comment on Stocks in Translation on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. And I have a very, we have a very special guest today, Sean Lesser, and he is the founder of The Real, which is a mental health foundation. He's a mental health advocate and an impacting investing pioneer. Three decades in finance, and you co-founded the industry's first impact investment bank for 16 years. Big Path Capital earned a Barron's Award, impact investing's investment bank, and you're just a trusted advisor, and we're gonna be talking to you about the mental health aspect of finance, and we just wanna kinda kick things off here. How is the mental health in finance, how is it doing, especially in New York City? This is a good question. I kinda look at it from two perspectives. How are the people doing, right? That's one question, right, the individual, and how is the business side doing? So for sure, I think mental health is more and more on people's target list, and I think there's more and more capital going that way, but there's also a higher demand to help individuals that are struggling with their mental health. Fair enough. Let me just give everyone a brief outline of where we're gonna be going today. We have a phrase of the day, social impact spending. We're gonna dive into that shortly, just a minute. This episode, brought to you by the number 477.5 billion, that is the dollar amount of excess costs arising from mental health inequities, and that's in the US alone, by the way. So we just got your big picture view of the state of mental health. Looks a little bit different, but we wanna get to our phrase of the day, which is social impact spending. Those are investments that are allocating funds to generate both financial returns and positive social or environmental outcomes. You're in this space. What is social impact spending to you? To me, and I've worked 16 years in the first impact investing investment bank, it's basically using money to make money and do good, right? And I think when you first started impact investing, there was this myth for some reason, I never understood it, that you can't make money and do good. It never made any sense to me, but that's really trying to make money. Make it simple. Make money, do good. Help us understand where you're coming from, your personal story in finance and with the mental health community. Sure, sure. So first, I'll give you my LinkedIn resume that you guys saw, and then I'll give you a little bit about the story. So resume, born in Brooklyn, grew up Long Island, went to Syracuse University. Then after school, I did 15 years, I did international institutional equity sales, so selling stocks to banks overseas. I was in the city. And then in 2007, with a partner of mine, we started the first impact investing investment bank called Big Path Capital, raising money for impact and sustainable companies, raising money for funds, put on different investor events. And we grew the company and the company's still around. So that's the resume. And then there's the story. So it was September 22, and I was depressed. I was having trouble eating. I was having- What year? Oh, 2022. I was having trouble eating. I was having trouble sleeping. I lost 40 pounds, which is terrific, but I was not on a diet, okay? And- Didn't feel good. No, no. But people would be like, you look amazing. And I'd be like, I never felt worse in my life, but I looked really good. So I'd rather be a little heavier than getting- Cognitive dissonance. Exactly, exactly. And then it was December 19th of 22. I was on a Zoom investor call and basically had like a full mental breakdown where I was not functioning correctly. I couldn't really speak. And I was suicidal. I'd tell my wife, I don't want to be here anymore. Please freaking kill me. So, you know, most wives don't want to hear that. There's probably some. That might. How did people on the call react? It was almost like, get off the call, right? It wasn't, it was just, couldn't really, things, my brain was not working. Wasn't functioning. I mean, I've had- Kind of like a panic attack. Lots of anxiety in the back. I mean, when I first got into TV, I had a stage fright that you wouldn't believe. And so I kind of battled that for years. And I know exactly what that feels like. What did you do then? So after that, it's complicated because what do you do with someone in that state? There's no like- There's no handbook. And my wife was there and she was amazing. So we're like, okay, what are we going to do? So I live in Atlanta. We went to the emergency ward, right? Which was also rather strange being in the emergency ward with other people that have different ailments that can get treated easily for medical purposes, maybe. Yes, so for example, I remember there was a young girl there. She had a problem with her kidney. And I'm saying to myself, what is wrong with you? What are you doing here, right? And then they rolled someone out basically on a Zoom machine, right? And they said, do you want to go to the psych ward? And I was like, I don't know what that means. Okay, but I was like, I was just in a bad place. And I was just like, I don't care. I want to go somewhere. So the next thing is we packed up the next day and yeah, I was in the psych ward. For a few weeks or? No, it was just for three days. That was it. But I didn't really know what it was until I got there. And you call it the real and this kind of describes something that's a bit nebulous, but affects a lot of people. What is the real? Well, the real is a little bit more of the story, but another guy came into the story and he became like my mental health sponsor. I think of almost like Alcoholics Ananas and you have a sponsor. He helped me through it. And when I got through it on the other side, me and him were talking on the phone and we were like, dude, you know, this was serious. This was real. And I said, that's what we're gonna call it. The real. We're gonna call it the real. And then of course he asked me, well, what is it? And of course I said, I have no idea, but I know there's a lot of men, women and family suffering. And I think we've learned some things and we can help them. So that was the genesis of the name. Sean, this is a really scary thing that happened to you, but then you decided to make a career of mental health, mental health investing. How did you kind of decide to go back to something? I mean, it wasn't the same job you were doing before, but how did you make that decision? Sure. So yes. So I was in the psych ward, then I went to two treatment centers and then I got out and then I was like, what am I gonna do? I also had gotten bought out of my old company so I couldn't go back into the space for a while. So I was like, I don't know what to do. And then the idea of The Real came and then it was really scary just going forward with doing that because I remember, you know, I'm a big LinkedIn guy. So from finance, I have a lot of contacts. So that's my default. So I sent out a message to people, about 30,000 people. I pushed the button. I said, I was in a bad place. I'm starting this thing up called The Real. And you know, I was kind of shaken and I pressed the button and kind of amazing how many people came back and were so supportive. Did they identify with it? Like how many people have you found that just, oh, The Real, yeah, I get this. Well, I think a lot of people, maybe not even the name but more the fact that, you know, I was in a bad place and I think everyone, I was at a 10, okay? That's, you don't wanna be to a 10. Yeah, 10 isn't bad. 10's bad, okay, let's put 10's bad. But everyone, everyone, every human in their life is at a two or four or six or an eight sometime in their life. It's not, that's just human nature. So the idea is don't get to the 10. So that's part of the foundation and the foundation's based on the power of conversation and community, other people helping you out. Anything specific, tools like cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical, like anything you're borrowing. Sure, so it's a little bit, you know, people ask, how'd you get better? And I've been to treatment centers and I've done all those different things. But for me, and this is just me, it was more changing the lens in my glasses, looking at the world a little differently. Like, you don't think you're enough, but you're enough, right? I know the big thing in finance, and even New York City, because I'm from here, is the thing that I call the comparathon. Okay, where you're keeping up with the Joneses. You're comparing everyone to you and et cetera. And I was. Well, sometimes there's a leaderboard in the office, too. Yes, yes, yes. But that becomes painful, right? Because that becomes almost a never-ending cycle, and I would do that. And truth of it is, someone is always better or worse than you in every single thing. And even you see someone that looks so perfect, I can tell you that everyone, I mean, look how beautiful this guy looks. Everyone has something. I'm talking to you. Talking to me. I got lots of problems, I'm happy to share a few. No, it's okay. So tell us a little bit about what you do with social impact investing. How does someone, you talked before about the people versus the companies and the investing side versus how mental are people doing. So how do you measure something like social impact investing? So that's a little bit of my old life, but yeah, how impact investing kind of evolved. Eventually, there's an investor sitting in the room, right, investing in the company or fund. Let's call them two investors. One wants to see the financial return and the other one wants to see the metrics. So there's different groups. There's like a group called Tideline. There's a group called Tablecloth that basically Bridgespan, KPMG, they'll do a lot of the different metrics to be measuring those different things. Because is it, you always hear this word like greenwashing, et cetera, but how do you really know your money is going to what you want it to go to? Yeah, the whole ESG movement suffered a little shade, I guess, over the last few years. People were just inflating their numbers by saying, we're green, and then you add the market cap of this company to your total, not pretty big, but somewhat misleading. Do you still see that going on? Is there a reckoning? Yeah, I think there's a blowback on ESG. I look, though, at mental health, and I also think there's a political angle to it, but I think mental health is a little bit different in that it's not a Republican, it's not a Democratic issue. No one's like, I'm against mental health, right? That's not an issue that you're hearing. So within the mental health space, I don't really see that as an issue at all. Should everyday people think about investing in ESG, or is this a good way to support companies that you care about, or is it not about that? I think you put your money where your mouth is, and the whole idea behind ESG, or impact investing, when I was in it, is you make as much money or more, but you also happen to have some social or environmental benefit. So the idea is that it's not like a trade-off, right? And then people will say, well, my company is, I'm looking for investors that want a trade-off, and that's looking for a unicorn, because there aren't that many of those that you hear about. The true unicorns, maybe. Yes, yes, those are the unicorns. All right, we need to take a short break here. Coming up, we're gonna talk about the staggering amount of money spent on healthcare in this country that is totally unnecessary. And on Who Wore Better, we are pitting telehealth up against the old stalwart of in-person visits, a classic tech versus legacy showdown. And we are back. This episode brought to you by the number 477.5 billion, which is the total dollar amount of excess spending in the U.S. on healthcare inequities, according to a Deloitte report. And I had to look this up as well. Mental health inequities are the unfair gaps in access and quality of care that different groups face due to things like race, income, or where they live. This leaves some people with worse mental health outcomes and fewer resources to get help. And this is gonna cost half a trillion dollars this year, 40 trillion by, oh, 14 trillion, excuse me, by 2040. So that's a lot. How do you chip away at this? Well, also, look at that from a different angle. Not how much money you're gonna lose, but if you have a healthy workforce, how much more money are you gonna get, right? Or if you look at the figures are kind of crazy, how many absentee days people take. And if you make them better, you're gonna have a more efficient company and hopefully you're gonna raise, I mean, you're gonna make more money and have happy customers and employees. It seems to me like that's something companies have to do. How can everyday people kind of solve for some of these inequities? That's a tough question. I'm not sure how, I mean, you're saying with their own investments? I guess. Directing their own investments, getting involved, I don't know. Well, I would say, for example, I'm giving you an example. A buddy of mine was my mental health sponsor, right? So it's also about people helping people. And he was my mental health sponsor because he went through something similar to me. And when you talk to someone that gone through something similar, therapists are great, but I could say, you know, Jared, I went through something similar. I know exactly how you feel. I know you didn't wanna get out of bed. I know you didn't wanna brush your teeth, all these different things. And I also know that you thought it was never gonna end, but I can tell you with 100% certainty because I was there, it's gonna end. So it's a lot of just relationships with people. I mean, that happens in the family all the time. Maybe you don't listen to your mother or father, but it more comes from a friend or something. You're probably more apt to listen to somebody. How do mental health inequities stack up here in the US versus globally? Sure, sure. So I don't know the exact figures, but for sure it's even a bigger issue overseas. But I would also say that mental health does not discriminate, right? That is true. It really, it sounds weird, but some of the richest people have the most problems with their mental health. And it really doesn't discriminate race, creed, color, where you are on the economic scale. It's a human thing. So are you forming support groups? You mentioned that you compared it to AA before. Do you have any kind of formal sponsorship or are you just feeling it out right now? Do you have any? So we have two sides. We have the foundation and then we have the for-profit too. So the foundation, the Real Mental Health Foundation, it's really based on three Cs. It's goes conversations, goes to community, goes to change. So I was saying before, mental health is complicated. I don't have all the answers, but what was helpful for me was the conversations. What does that mean? I've been going around the country or around the globe, kind of telling my story. It's kind of like a Q&A. Over a thousand, I think. Well, I don't know about a thousand speeches, but spoke over to thousands of people. And I kind of tell the story of what happened to me and I couldn't tell you how many times, I didn't ask people, but then they start telling their story because it's also about feeling comfortable. And if you should. Yes, because then other people are like, hey, he seems okay. And he's telling his story. I'm going through something. I can tell him. So it's kind of making it, breaking down the stigma, the power of vulnerability, things like that. What if I'm a viewer right now and I'm feeling like I recognize this. Maybe I'm going through the real, what do I do? Sure, sure. So I think one is you have this stigma, especially in finance and not just finance. Everybody has to be a superhero. Right, right. And it's not true. Everyone is not a superhero. Everyone is just human, right? So I think the first step is to open up and speak to a friend, a family member. And I couldn't, I am like 100% sure when you do that, that person will be like, thank you so much. And then they will say, I myself had these issues and then you'll be closer. This isn't an instant fix, but I'm just saying that's the first step to kind of break down the barriers. That would be a simple thing. Let me ask you on a personal level though, when you hear other people's stories, is it ever kind of a trigger for you or are you more welcoming then? No, it's actually, and I have like a helpline. But people go, Sean, can you talk to my friend? Can you talk to my sister, my cousin? And I'm always like, yeah, of course. I know it's not a trigger, it's more, I really like it because hey, I went through something and if I could help somebody else, terrific. And hopefully they get better or whatever and then they pass it along to somebody else. Or even, I was in a bad place, but even some of my friends that helped me later on, they might be in a bad place. So it kind of just, everyone helps everybody. Do you see some kind of a structure evolving here that maybe like 10 years down the line there will be kind of formalized support groups? Is that even happening? Oh, within the Rio? Yeah. Yeah, so we have, for example, another big thing was the community. So we have an app, but it's not like a technology thing. It's like, we're trying to build it out so it's a place where you can find a mental health sponsor, be a mental health sponsor, a safe place where you can talk about these things and not feel like you're judged. Also, I don't think I should have went to the psych ward, but mental health is very complicated. And it's not like people will be like, if you broke your arm, you'd be like, hey, what doctor should I go to? And your friend would be like, oh, Dr. Smith, he's wonderful. But people aren't really sharing that information, but that's also super helpful because it's kind of this really opaque window that you're looking for. Where do I go? What do I do? Who do I trust? All those different things. Because those questions are very difficult to answer. So imagine when you're in the midst of it. On today's edition of Who Worked Better, we're comparing digital mental health platforms to in-person care. On the one side, digital platforms offer 24-7 accessibility, scalability, and lower costs, making care more affordable and convenient. But on the other side, can they match the human connection that comes from face-to-face interaction? So on this other side, in-person care provides deep empathy and the ability to read nonverbal cues if you're there in person, but it's limited by geography, availability, and higher costs, and regulations, I would add, too. Can't cross a state line. So who do you think is better equipped to... Oh, this is a tough question. Yeah, is it digital or in-person? I might duck it, but I can just tell you what my... No, I'm not going to duck it, but just my experience because I've seen both sides, right? I think it also matters where you are on this kind of spectrum, how you're feeling. Like I was saying, I was at a 10, and I had therapists online and doing other things, but at that point, you're pulling the fire alarm, all right? You need to go somewhere. You need to be kind of stabilized if you think you're in a car accident and you get stabilized. So when people are further down, I'm going to say, yes, go somewhere, get some professional help, et cetera. If you're in, I'm saying it's a 10, but let's say you're at a two or four or six, you can always go with the digital if you need to go further, go for the in-person. And in the pandemic, you didn't have much of a choice. Oh, you didn't have a choice, yeah, yeah. You got to roll with the times. Yeah, yeah. But the digital aspect opens up so much accessibility. For sure, for sure, for sure. And also it depends, right? You know, where you live, you live in a rural area, maybe you don't have that possibility. You live in some, you know, so, you know, luckily for me, I had those different things that I could do for other folks. It might be really hard. So digital for sure opens up the doors in a lot of places that are hard to get to or whatever it is. I've only ever done digital, so I can't speak for the in-person. I've done both. And, you know, it depends. Like if you've done in-person for a while and you already know the person, you can do digital, but you can't, I found it's hard to get to know somebody just through a screen. Yeah, and so you might miss maybe some cues. Both are good. I'm not gonna say one's better than the other. That's fine. It just depends where you kind of are. It's contextual. In my thoughts. Let me ask you, you said you've spoken to a lot of people and people might come up to you. What's the most memorable conversation you've had with someone? What was really nice is you don't know what effect you're having on people, right? So sometimes, and I'll do a lot of posting on LinkedIn and someone said, or they were in the audience and they came back to me later, like a month later or two months later, and the guy's like, Sean, you don't know how much I was in a bad place. You don't know how much you just telling your story helped. So obviously I was very happy for him and also obviously that makes me feel good because when you're helping people, you're also helping yourself. Social media seems like a big driver for you. Is it? Just like people kind of commending you or being like, if I hadn't seen this post, I would have kept it quiet or something. I'm kind of, I'm a LinkedIn guy. That's what I do. Cause it was also business. I'm always done. So it's putting those kind of, and maybe the LinkedIn's a little less, I don't feel it, but people aren't telling their feelings as much. And if you put it out there and you'd be vulnerable, it's just surprising how many people come back and be like, dude, thank you so much. You don't understand. Let me ask you a question here. Let's say, and this comes from our producer who's watching intently here. What are some signs that people might need help? Because somebody, how do you identify that? Of course. Okay. So it's things like isolating, right? For sure. I used to be a guy, you would text me, you would email me. I would come back to you in a second. All of a sudden, they're kind of acting a little bit strange. Yeah. And their response is back to you. They're not being as interactive with you as they were in the past. They gained a lot of weight. For me, it was a lot of weight. Yeah. So that's, it's those types of things are kind of cues that you can, you know. Right. But I'd also say one thing, cause people have this, but I like to tell them, hey, it's almost like you got the flu. It's going to pass. But when you're in it, you're like, okay, this is horrible. And I'm never going to be better. And, but you, you can't. A therapist said a good thing to me. She's like, Sean, it's like you're in a fishbowl and you're the fish. And they just shook the ball as hard as they can. And you don't know which side is up. Right? Like that step right there. Right. Exactly. You don't know which is what. That's our main step by the way. Is it night? What's going on? I don't know. let me, you have an event coming up. Deutsche Bank, I believe at Deutsche Bank. Just tell us about it. It has to do with the real organization. So, yeah. So the event at Deutsche Bank, that's going to happen next week. It's the, the real summit. It's the intersection of finance and mental health. So this is the way to look at it. First, it's kind of your typical investor event, companies, funds, family offices, foundations, what they're doing around mental health on the investment side. The second piece is about kind of you individually. Right? How do you get better? This would have been better, good for me. So we have different workshops about you, your family members, how to be, you know, a better leader, things like that. And then third, it's also about the community aspects. So we'd have the real talks that I was talking about. And we also do these things, the real walks. So hopefully when somebody leaves, what happens? That if they're, maybe they help to build out the mental health ecosystem. Maybe they invest some money. They're a person, hopefully they learn something that could help them, a family member, or a friend. And then also, hopefully they become part of this real community. We only have a few seconds left. So I guess we're going to wind things down here. This was a great conversation. Really appreciate you sending out your invite on LinkedIn. That led to this conversation. So everybody check it out. We got to make sure that you check out other episodes of Stocks in Translation on the Yahoo Finance site and mobile app. We're also on all your favorite podcast platforms. That would be YouTube, Apple, Spotify, iHeart, PodTel, PodParadise, and more. That's all for now. Thank you for keeping it tuned here to Yahoo Finance. ♪♪