Susan Cartsonis (Producer & Former Studio Executive) on Filmmaking and Championing Women’s Stories

there's a little known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of known as the audience test preview the book audience ology reveals this for the first time our podcast series Don't Kill the Messenger brings this book to life taking a peek behind the curtain and now join author and entertainment research expert Kevin getts my guest today is a true lover of story it is in fact her light motif she has originated them developed them shephered them produced them and advocated for them most notably they are stories about women by women and for women I have with me today producer and former executive at 20th Century Fox Susan cartsonis she's on the board of the writers lab founded by Merill stre co-funded by Nicole Kidman and Oprah Winfrey and of the nonprofit screenwriters Workshop sinore she also teaches at USC's School of cinematic arts and fun fact for you all she's my wife welcome Susan oh hold on let me do it Susan I'm home all right hi Honey hi honey how are you all right tell them how you're my wife okay so we're testing Nell it was Nell right with Jodie Foster directed by the wonderful the late Michael Abed wonderful director and a wonderful human being Michael aped was the greatest so we tested that movie everywhere we went to the South we went to the north Seattle we went to didn't we go to Richmond Virginia probably I'm pretty sure we did and we were coming through Newark we had to spend the night at the airport for some reason yeah and they had lost one of our rooms I was without a room in Newark New Jersey at probably midnight correct and you came to my rescue you said this is my this is my wife wait a second why would you say that why would they give us separate rooms then were did you already if you were I don't think we were in the same Hotel so I said this is my so I gave you my room and I got had another room or something that's what it was so it's been a running joke for about 30 plus years now that I think of it makes no sense this is my wife well then share a room no there was a there was clearly a reason for me saying that so okay let's go back to let's go back in time to 20th Century Fox which is where we met we sort of bonded right away well we were grunts then you wanted to be an actor I was interested I was a theater geek like you did you major in I majored in theater at UCLA you and I had that in common we recognized each other immediately which is also our our love of story it is it's also Al you can recognize somebody who's studied theater who's a theater geek because upon seeing each other they just scream they're very dramatic just when you came in this morning and you came in from the restroom and I was in the studio here and you you said hi it's the theater geek in us we we it we it's like a virus we never quite get rid of it I'll never forget something early on when I was being considered for a job under Laura zisin and I said Susan give me some advice and you said to me Kevin the one piece of advice I want to give you is when you go into the room know the room sometimes you're a little bit bigger than the room read the energy read the energy and I thought that was a great piece of advice buddas and well it was also something you might have heard that he's awfully energetic and awfully bouncing off the walls or something like that perhaps and you were I thought maybe being a little kind and elegant the way you were sort of giving me that note but it was a great note that has stayed with me one of the things I love most about you is your energy and the energy you bring into a room so it makes me a little bit sad to think that that no it wasn't negative at all you're talking to people who are not of your frequency perhaps I don't even know who was in the room at the time I think it was actually Beth gaer Elizabeth Gable so I knew the room and I knew that you had to calibrate ex exactly so I thought it was a great piece of advice let's go back to Scott Ruden oh my gosh Scott tell us the story story of how you got to Fox oh my gosh I was just out of grad school at NYU I had studied dramatic writing and I'd gotten to study with amazing people like the playwright Tina how Wendy waserstein had been in Residence there there were just incredibly inspiring playwrights and screenwriters Lorenzo simple Junior came and did a couple of semesters it was an absolutely incredible place to be and New York City is so vibrant and wonderful and I got to live in New York I loved it and I got a job that stemmed from an internship at 20th Century Fox which then had offices in New York City and I was working for an amazing amazing executive later turned producer named Sarah citton now Sarah colliton is one of the great beauties of all time The Hollywood Reporter George Christie used to refer to her as a Latter-Day Ava Gardner and she dressed almost in 1940s style in these beautiful pants suits Chanel I mean she just looked fabulous just beautiful and glamorous and incredibly smart too does that description remind you of anybody because it's rumored that Mike Nichols based the Sigourney Weaver character and working girl on Sarah oh I mean certainly she wasn't mean like Sigourney was in that movie but she had sort of Regal Pres always put on lipstick and so I would to remember to put on lipstick she always had lipstick on always do your job like you're not afraid of being fired that was the best advice she ever gave oh and we'll get to Barry Diller in a moment that was that advice came from Sarah so anyway I started working for Sarah as a reader and my boyfriend at the time had just sold a script to her so she had like she's like oh I've got to interview the boyfriend's girlfriend this is going to be a Dr so I spent like 48 Hours on how many times have you since interviewed the boyfriend's girlfriend or the girlfriend's boyfriend or the cousin of the boyfriend's girlfriend I mean I've done it we do favors many we do favors all the time but sometimes the boyfriend's girlfriend or the girlfriend's boyfriend or the girlfriend's girlfriend sometimes they're talented you know so you have to judge people on who they are thankfully that's what Sarah did with me she was really good to me so I spent like 48 Hours on this coverage if I worked at that pace for the rest of my script reading career I would have never made a scent but I really poured over it I made sure it was right and I turned it into her and she loved it and she said okay you're hired and I got paid by the piece I was not a union reader New York didn't have Union readers what' you get paid something I think I I got paid like $30 or $40 a script and then if I read a book and I can read really really fast for the first 500 pages it was like $50 and then it was $10 for the book each1 pages after well I could zip through books so I was actually racking in some money and I was loving it because I was living in New York I was out of school now and I was learning so much and I love to read I love good books and I was getting to read these books pre-publication I read books like the handmaid's tale I I got to read all kinds of books that later became things I read Sleeping with the Enemy which I gave a strong recommend to said it was a hitchcockian thriller and later got to Champion it because my career the executive on that I wasn't but when you bring up Barry Diller I'll fill you so anyway I started reading and I was so fast that they started sending me things from Los Angeles to read and remember they didn't have email then so they had to send it by FedEx because they knew they could get a really quick turnaround I would just read really fast and I would write my coverage right into the computer so after doing that for about a month she said I really like having this girl around and she liked my point of view about things and she said come use my conference room because she had a big office and then a conference room that'll be your office so I now I had a place to go so I installed myself in her office I was still a freelance reader but I had an office to go to and I would read scripts and manuscripts and do these synopsis and I was basically in this little Boiler Room of my own and I loved it because everybody in the world would come streaming through she was friends with all the Literati in New York I got to meet people she was very generous introducing me what did Sarah do she was VP of development and production out of New York and she was covered ing the entire publishing world for 20th Century Fox she was working for first it was Larry Gordon and then Scott was installed as president of production and Scott would come through he liked coming back to New York he was originally from New York and he met me he and I hit it off I thought he was just this cute young guy we were exactly the same age and I was not at all intimidated by him I didn't know about his ferocious reputation to me he was just the smart cute young guy and we would chat about things and then he got installed as president and he said something to Sarah about wanting to hire me and Sarah said if he approaches you make sure you negotiate what you want and I went okay and he started calling me Scott was very much about the pursuit and he goes why don't you move out here and you'll be kind of like my assistant and you'll research things for me and I had lived in Hollywood before I had been an assistant at an agency the coner agency I knew what it was to be an assistant in Hollywood I don't want to be anybody's assistant and I knew that that leap from assistant to Executive was the largest leap that you can possibly make and I wasn't going to move back from New York which I loved I loved New York I loved going to the theater I loved the East Village I loved my life in New York I was not moving back as an assistant that would feel like failure to me he kind of wanted me to move into his conference room and sort of do what I was doing for Sarah and this came as a result of me having written basically a treatment for what life and loves of a she devil could be as a movie Sarah had an assistant named Lisa melmed who'd read the book and thought it was a really good book and could make a good movie it called life and loves of a she devil anyway Scott used that treat M that I wrote as currency with a director who he wanted to do something he wanted to convince Susan seidleman to direct something for him and he used that treatment and it sort of got him the favor that he wanted and so he saw my value you you wrote the treatment I wrote the treatment I think I collaborated on it with Lisa but I was the reader and I was the person with the most time she was the one who identified the material but but that he was very impressed it caught his attention it caught his attention because that wasn't my job I just did it because I was entrepreneurial oh my God I have a rock star well in my mid I didn't know I over functioned and by overfunctioning it drew attention so now he was really motivated and Sarah's like don't settle for less than what you want and I said Sarah what I want is to be an executive I went to graduate school because I wanted to work with writers I knew I probably didn't have the patience to write but I wanted to understand writing from the inside so what do I do and she said tell him to make you an executive so next time he called cuz he was persistent this is his super yeah he would just call and call and call I said Scott I'm not coming out there I have a really good life in New York I love New York I know you love New York too so you know why I love it and why should I come out to LA to be an assistant again even being an assistant for you that's not what I want in my life he goes well what do you want he was now fed up and I said I want to be an executive and he goes okay you're an executive I said okay I'll be there Friday I was living with my boyfriend I said stand pack up our stuff follow me I'll find a place for us to live I'm moving out at the end of the week and I'm going to so I didn't know you we was Stan in New York yeah we met at grad school oh wow the late Stan the late Stan the writer of one night at mol's that my Michael Douglas produced he was he was a really really great guy we were together for 17 years wow wow wow yeah so so he followed me did Scott love that you said I'll be there on Friday I don't know if he loved it but I showed up on Friday and there was nobody to greet me and I had zero money I think I had the $500 I'd made the week before I'd sublet an apartment that my friend Howard knew about from the writer of the book he hadn't written the book yet save the cat the late Blake SN rest in peace in Beverly Hills and I started work the next day the story editor Laura Lee was put in charge of me and I got signed up by 20th Century Fox it was amazing to drive onto the lot the Hello Dolly Street was still there when you drove in I remember that what was your first movie The First movie was big Penny Marshall yes not a b Marshall not a bad one and Barry sonnenfeld was the cinematographer and I remember the first day I sat in this little room with 13 seats and we watched dailies and I was to take notes and say whether the dailies were good bad indifferent who did you work for I was working for Sarah she was the executive on big oh Sarah but Sarah was promoted or something Sarah was promoted because she was a New York rep and then she came out to be normal sort of she was an executive in New York and she was brought to LA to be an executive but she was upped to senior VP I think and then eventually I think she was executive VP but I was tasked with watching the dailies and the first day of dailies as you know are extremely important because a sets the tone a director can be fired and it also determines how closely that director is going to be scrutinized and when that director is a woman and nobody no female directors in the United States have worked in the studio system for many many years wow as a feature film directors yes it's really scrutinized hard but Penny Marshall was no fool and Barry sonnenfeld was no fool and they collaborated and I'm sure Jim Brooks opined about it what is going to be impressive what's going to be beautiful and there's a sweeping shot of the amusement park it it's it's like a wet down and the camera movement was magnificent the scope was and scale was listeners who are starting in the business not yourself that is a really good piece of advice it was Dynamic it was beautiful I think it made it into the movie but it was magic and and they knew it was going to be scrutinized beautifully it made me gasp and you know what did I know I was in newbie watching brushes or dailies but I wrote this is the most beautiful movie and then there there were also dailies of performance and of course it was Tom Hanks being brilliant and Penny Marshall being brilliant directing Tom Hanks and the Beautiful Elizabeth Perkins eventually is the first foray into the oh my God and then what happens to your Equity your stock at the studio where is the movie that has Susan's imprint on it well interesting my first project that I ever had that I didn't get to see through but that was assigned to me was called the object of My Affection oh I like that movie it was very very early on and Will and Grace was years from ever happening yeah so the idea of a friendship between a straight woman and a gay guy that was a hugely Innovative idea can you imagine that a straight woman and a gay guy being friends Kevin yeah couldn't I don't think that's possible I don't think it's you could be my husband in nework but we couldn't right so anyway I was given that project to oversee I think Larry Mark who was then a producer on the lot um asked me to be the executive and I thought we should honor this relationship nobody's ever made a made a movie about the relationship between straight women and gay guys and I'd had lots of gay guys' friends I was a theater major gay guys were my starter boyfriends you know and they were my friends they were my dear dear friends you know you not only coexist but you support each other and in the days that I was friends with gay guys a lot of gay guys didn't have family because their family had distanced themselves because it was considered very very disgraceful to be a gay person so I thought finally a movie that honors the friendship and the Rel Rel ship between why did you not see it through I don't think it wound up getting made at Fox I think that it got put into turnaround I think it was considered not I loved it Wendy werstein wrote it Larry and I worked with Wendy did she remember you from myu she did and I remember she was coming out to LA and she was spending quite a bit of time in New York sort of driving around she was thinking about having a kid or adopting she anyway she needed a car I remember advising her to get a Camry I these are random things that are really not very interesting but I told Wendy wersen to get a Camry another sadly what was the movie at Fox you were most proud of during your entire tenure I'm so proud of so many of them for different reasons I'm proud of Buffy the Vampire Slayer because it spawned a billion- dooll Empire and even more importantly it connected with women and girls and told them that you may have a secret power that you don't even know you Harbor that and it's that was a really powerful idea and also because Jos Weeden was writing in a way that nobody had ever spoken on screen before it was like he invented a language so I'm super proud of that also it broke genres because it was both a comedy and horror and nobody had done a comedy horror yet good point um I am super proud of dying young even though it's famously the worst title of all time terrible title but I loved that it honored the idea that somebody who was dying because um the in in the story Julia Roberts comes to be the caregiver to a guy who has cancer Campbell Scott it's based on a novel I love the idea that the guy who knows he's going to die wants to push her to be a better person and that though they're not meant to be together forever they're going to change each other's lives and Elevate each other even though it's for a moment her life will forever be touched by him and I just loved the idea of that and I really liked Julia Roberts I believed in her talent I was very excited to work with her I'm really proud of four the boys because it gave me an opportunity to work with B Midler both her production company and with her as a star I'm proud of that movie I don't know if you remember Bonnie BR Bonnie brookheimer is the best and just the most wonderful person and Nell you love Nell I love Nell we had so much fun and Jody Foster remains g t chck my my proudest moment is well I shouldn't say this Jody don't be mad at me but when Saturday Night Live did a sendup of Nell I felt like we made it we're part of the culture we are we're in the Z guys I feel like I made it you know forget I Academy Awards I just was happy that Saturday Night Live made fun of us my god when we come back we're going to talk to Susan about her producing career and Beyond we'll be back in a [Music] moment listeners the motion picture in television fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment Community this wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services including temporary financial assistance case management and residential living and has been a crucial Lifeline to thousands during and Beyond the strikes to learn more visit mpf.com please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need there are so many ways to offer support and get involved thank you we are back with my wife the wonderful Susan gonus before we go on to talk about producing I'd like you to tell one story about Barry Diller and how you stood up to him in a meeting when everyone warned you don't go against Barry well I was fascinated by Barry because he was hugely powerful but I didn't report Direct I want to say for some of the younger folks who don't know what Barry Diller has done and one of them was running Paramount Pictures but of course the other one he was he was responsible for the Fox network the fourth Network yeah and also for the Simpsons which was on that Network the Tracy Alman show Married with Children he created the television movie I mean you talk about disruptors he was the original disruptor so I was invited to a meeting as a peon was a creative executive I don't think I even had a title it was just creative executive and I was meant to sit in this round room with all the senior Executives and we were going to consider certain projects that might or might not get made and you were meant to be seen but not heard unless you had something really important to say and I had been warned that if you spoke in front of Barry the senior Executives you better have the goods because he will eviscerate you you eviscerate you he will kill you but I was fascinated by him I'd walk watch most most powerful folks female male whatever will do that and should do that because if you have an opinion you better have it backed up in something and I've learned that early on it's a great piece of advice so on that day I was as we say in theater in the moment I was just enjoying being in the room I was very present you know when all your synapses are firing as they do when you're in your 20s well and you've had a lot of coffee right and Sarah ctin was there she was my great mentor and supporter and I had my lipstick on so I was feeling confident because I'd followed her advice and they started talking about a couple of projects the first project they brought up was Sleeping with the Enemy and the producer on that movie was Leonard Goldberg who had been Barry Diller's boss when they were in the television world and Barry was kind of like is the script really good enough and I remembered being the reader I was the original reader of the book and there was a lot of discussion and I could tell that this project was going to go south and I really didn't think it should I didn't know what the politics were I just knew it could be a hit I knew that it wasn't woman in Peril story it was the story of a woman transforming herself and fighting back that transformation was essential was the empowerment that you saw find it yeah absolutely so taking agency of her life so so I I basically Barry was ready to ask it and I said I think audiences will come see it and it was an outof Body Experience I'm did somebody just say something oh my God that was me and then I went into basically my commentary in the coverage which is this is a story of transformation this is as old as time because it's hit and and it's hitchcockian the transformation of the woman the way that hides the way she fights back is empowering women are going to love it men are going to love it it's it's a fantastic story it's a classic we should do it and he goes and the decision was made to do it so now I'm feeling like I'm feeling my oats I'm feeling a little empowered right oh Bravo oh because it came from the deepest part of your soul you knew you believed in it and I had thought about it when you believe in something let's just say for anyone listening and you believe in something fight for it I mean stand up for It Don't Stop Believing in it I believed in it when I read it as a book I recommended it I didn't recommend things lightly the whole meeting was like the Susan cartona show I don't know what happened I was really determined to just be a fly on the wall and I ended up shooting off my mouth because the next thing that they brought up was Miller's Crossing Maria Gay Harden yes Marsha Gay Harden was in it more importantly to me the Cohen Brothers it was a creation of jool and and Cohen and fox had just released Raising Arizona Raising Arizona was very very important to me because I'm from Arizona and they somehow these boys from Minnesota captured the absurdity of Arizona like Ang Lee who understood Brokeback Mountain Ang Lee who understood ice storm like from his culture to what he captured so brilliantly this was as distant a culture and somehow they got inside it that sometimes works really in favor of somebody not necessarily knowing it or taking it for granted but really having to look at what's aspirational about something or what is the underbelly of something they have to maybe work a little harder work a little harder but in their case this was incredibly original that I mean they they're brilliant filmmakers and Barry said this is a very particular movie it might not make any money and then that outof body voice I heard it again it was apparently coming for me and said you know making money is not the only reason to make a movie and I thought to myself how am I going to get out of this one what have you said Susan what are you thinking and he turned to me and now he looked like a shark oh really and I went okay so now I'm going to be eviscerated I'll probably lose my job oh well might as well just go for bro dble down yeah so I said yeah Barry when we make a movie for the second time with signature filmmakers like the Cohen Brothers we send out a signal to all the signature filmmakers in Hollywood that that fox can be a home for them and that will bring us more profits more Goodwill more relationships than we could ever possibly lose on Miller's Crossing and because these are such exceptional filmmakers why not put ourselves behind it it's not that much money oh my God I love you that is conviction the looks on the faces I went and he said what and he looks at me and he goes well said I'm going to cry I thought I was going to cry because I I may not have lost my job CL I'm for cl listening to that story okay I I have to ask you about home alone so Home Alone was another one of those Round Table it was a little round room at Fox who was in the room um it Tom Sherk it was Bruce Snider the the heads of marketing and distribution I think it was the Roger burnam era it was all the senior Executives and I don't remember if Barry was at that meeting I he he may have been but I know Tom sherik was presiding and Home Alone had gone into turnaround at Warner Brothers and fox was considering it to pick it up and make the movie and the the talk went around the table it's a properous idea nobody would ever no parent would ever forget their child this could never happen this could never happen and which is not untrue by the way oh well you just wait um I'm from a family of five on a trip across Canada I'm calling child protective services against your parents now postumus on a trip of across Canada we left my little brother Michael behind I was in the back of the station wagon handing out peanut butter and jelly sandwiches to my other brothers and sisters and I went when I got to Michael who was the youngest there was no Michael there my father screeched across the median we drove 20 minutes back we found Michael standing next to a mounty with an ice cream cone going you guys and it's marked him for life I'm telling you so I told that story in the room and we made Home Alone genius I said it can happen it happened in my family in a car in a station wagon W well how many times have we also heard stories where we're like well if that were a movie it would never fly but things fly man they fly weird things happen okay we have to segue to your producing you make a little movie called what women want it was just a little movie how'd you get involved well I worked for a production company compan I had a VP working for me named Melissa Godard who brought me a pitch um with Gina Matthews who managed the two writers yes and Goldsmith it was a oneline pitch and it was essentially what if a guy who's a scoundrel a a a a bad guy a guy who never does right by women doesn't sort of do the right thing played by m Gibson wishes that he could hear what women think and discovers that hell is getting what he thought he wanted and I thought you know what that is a kind of universal question what what women want they had the title from the get-go thought that's a really good idea for a movie is that your definition of high concept so high concept but also a concept that connects deeply with what people want to know our Natural Curiosity and the truth about human beings now I take exception to the idea of what men want as a sequel because I think it's not a good idea for a movie because I think everybody knows what men didn't work did it it doesn't because you know what men want it's really interesting if we had conducted what I call as and you know capability testing early on the concept testing I don't think it really would have resonated and it also would have felt I think like a cash play to audiences like they're trying to just cash in on something it's cynical it's a cynical choice anyway everybody works really hard on any movie even if the movie doesn't work so I don't want to trash the efforts of somebody who tried to make a sequel but what women want was a good idea but it's not always a good idea to make a sequel if you're trying to inorganically just piggyback on the success rather than on on the idea the idea has to has to organically work and by the way a lot of sequels do work as a result of that they do if the concept can carry you know subsequent stories or the writers are brilliant enough to expand and to evolve the characters so that they take you on a journey you got in sort of this pattern of really wanting to support women women filmmakers women stories as I said in the introduction movies about women for women by women why do you feel so passionate about that well when I was a kid every year I'd watch The Wizard of Oz and that that movie had a female protagonist who went on an adventure who made friends who forged her way who fought flying monkeys and who prevailed and who achieved some dreams and I couldn't find any more movies like that I mean I guess you know I got inspired by Jillian Armstrong when she made my brilliant career I love Lena vert mu's work but I couldn't find a lot of work from a female perspective or movies that had female protagonists there were some but often they didn't feel true and then at the studio about all those Katherine heer and Betty Davis movies yeah what happened to them no but I'm saying they were were influential but then they weren't making them anymore as your point right in the' 40s I you know women were allowed to be strong and then we went into and by the way some of the greatest screenwriters in the 20s and 30s were women yeah and and that sort of disip prior to that disappeared some of the greatest directors were women and then when it became a money-making business women were pushed out and it's really sad so the female perspective in storytelling suffered was through the male eyes often and we have been often shut out so you can see by my body of work that many of the stories that I've told come from a female perspective I've really made an effort to hire female filmmakers but even when I haven't I've wanted to work with men who are sensitive to kind of embodying the spirit of what that female experience would be because there's no reason that men can't bring fresh perspectives to female storytelling too I'm very open to both but I felt like we weren't making enough movies for women we were expecting women to just sort of meld their tastes into the four quadrant movie idea and when I talk to people like the late Tom sherik who was so wonderful and who was head of distribution and marketing at Fox he would say making movies for women is a great idea they're over half of the audience they influence more than that when it comes to buying correct you should stick to your guns make those movies we want to see them so as an executive that empowered me even though I really had to fight hard to get those movies gaer who is also one of your close friends I love Elizabeth so much yeah I do too I love her has made a lot of movies empowering women she has and almost carved her own sort of add mini studio that way well she has she's been amazingly successful it's not so amazing because she's so brilliantly talented it seems completely normal to me she's also a passionate Advocate like you are she'll fight for what she believes in but for the fact that it was for her and I know this is not necessar women's perspective story but life of piie was a perfect example of Elizabeth at her best if it was not for Elizabeth yeah and Tom Rothman said this to me in an interview that I just did from my new book Elizabeth made him say yes to that movie she's a beautiful delicate person who is a force of Nature and she also brilliantly adapts books that seem like they're impossible to adapt she finds a way dad sing she finds a way to marry devil we's Prada she finds a way to marry the material with the right writer and she nurtures those projects just brilliantly she's hugely talented and a lovely human being I love her I also read that you had a real reverence and respect for Tyler Perry Oh have you met Tyler cuz I have not met him I've never met Tyler Perry and I just said that to Devon Franklin a guest a few weeks back and he's like he loves Tyler and they're in business together now they're doing some stuff at Netflix together and he's doing an intro so I'm thinking you should come along oh why do we love him so much I love Tyler Perry because he understood that there was an underserved audience that was longing for stories that reflected their experiences and their lives and he created with what he had which was himself he created these plays and his own Marvel Universe he created these plays and then he created his own distribution Network which was basically the circuit of of churches and black theaters through the South and then he started to make movies and he found a partner in Lion gate and lion gate was deaft and Nimble and figured out how to follow his lead and create a distribution Network that would take advant manage and be able to bring those movies to the audience that this underserved black audience that had been ignored by Hollywood and I'm just especially older black women oh I'm so moved and inspired by the fact that he saw a need he felt he knew how to speak to that audience the audience that he found was grateful and needed and wanted entertainment entertainment elevates us it inspires us it makes us feel that everything's POS POS and um women in the world need that as well our movies go where we have no diplomatic relations internationally they speak to cultures they change people's DNA it's really really important and it's important to have it to uplift the people who it's about and also to educate but not educate in a didactic way in a way that just sort of infiltrates people's souls and changes the way that they think about things and think about people well said you've been on record saying that movies that are inclusive and diverse in their look and feel culturally are far more successful is that based empirically or is that your own anecdotal kind of assessment it's my experience and I'm going to be snotty on behalf of women and say where women lead often more inclusion follows because we are very collaborative and inclusive by Nature so I think that there needs to be more and more female leadership in Hollywood because I think in Hollywood how about the world I think there needs to be more female leadership in the world everywhere on the boards of companies in government I think we'd have a lot less war and we'd have better movies we'd have more movies that are more inclusive I love it better Le fewer Wars and better and better movies because aren't those the two things exactly oh it's so true and it's so crazy my recent guest sh Boon Isaacs talks about how people of color have been so marginalized on the sidelines for so long and then the Oscars so white movement really kind of forced people to take a look in the mirror and say wow we really have a disparity here we got to change that yes so you made a lot of movies since then I'm thinking of well where the heart is sitting in bars with cake aquamarina thinking of even beastly which was a love story but you've done a lot of these I try to put my money where my spirit I have a lot of fun and I have fun both behind the scenes and watching the finished product you're also known by the way as having great EQ and being a Kind and Generous person I don't think I've ever heard a negative thing said about you in the entire time we've known each other you fight for the right things but you also set a tone and it's I know your philosophy on set to be kind and elegant to people so that you inspire them to do their best work I also believe in firing people early because on a set you don't have a lot of I say don't don't confuse kindness tough and that was another that was another Sarah thing she said don't think that tough and nice can't live together they're they're not mutually exclusive how do you actually know when to fire someone you said you fire them early on what do you mean by that and how do you know it's the right thing to do on a movie set you only have a finite amount of time it's between six and 16 weeks I don't know it depends on how long the shoot is but it's a finite amount of time it's not enough time to change a person's way of working and as a producer you're responsible for everything that goes on on that set including safety and you have to make sure everybody's a great collaborator if somebody's not functioning well in the job that's been given they could be the most talented person in the world they could be exceptionally talented but not right for the job that they've been put into it is your responsibility to find the right person to be in that job and to fire the person early also I will say as a woman who is known for being nice it's important that people know that I'm tough as well as nice and that I have boundaries and they shouldn't Mess Around by the way that's a common Motif that we've heard I'm going to say from several guests producers who said that is almost a given that they fire someone early on to set the stage did anyone ever give you that advice no I just realized and I'm not looking for somebody to fire I would never in a million years do that you want everybody who you hire to be successful in their jobs but if you know somebody's not working out you cut bait and everybody finds out and they do everybody sits up a little straighter and they go okay marvous don't mess with her she's tough she's fair but she's tough I think a great conversation to have always is one about operating always in kindness but you could be candid and kind and I think that is one of my superpowers actually is I have to go in room after room do people are tender when they're exposing their work to you for the first time I've been I've had a front row seat to that at least 40 times may there's no help to go out and deliver a report card I have to go out and I have to know that these people have spent upwards of 10 years on a movie do you feel the pain when somebody gets bad news from the audience you know I'm in empath I of course I do this must be so hard for you it is but I'm going to tell you the truth and I'm hoping to either do it Ted Talk on this subject or a place where I can express myself about how to deliver bad news to really talented folks because there are so many talented folks that go off either the rails or their project doesn't work but I'm going to tell you something there is always something to find as an actor we were always trained you have to love your character even if you're playing Adolf Hitler even if you're playing edin you can't say I'm playing a a terrible no you have to find the thing and you also have to find those redeeming qualities every movie has something that works and I always start with that well that is the classic perfect way to give critique isn't it Sher Lansing was a genius at doing that wasn't she she was the best no one said no like Sher I want to say something else about no no is an answer people would rather get a kind no no than a than a nonresponse a non- returned phone call a non- returned email you're making me laugh because when I was at Fox and even to this day when I say no I am very specific about why I'm saying no and I tell the person whether it's a writer or an agent or a manager what it was that didn't connect with me and I sometimes give prescriptive comments and half of the time they really don't want to hear it but I I I feel that it's a responsibility to be specific about it rather than just a no I want them to know where my no comes from when I sometimes have to deliver what my equivalent of a no is which is audience results negative results I find ripping the Band-Aid off fast but in a sensitive way because I'm going to tell you I will rarely say this is irreparable I will rarely say the DNA is so flawed that there is no way forward I've done it occasionally because the audience is absolutely rejecting something at its core I don't think I've ever worked with anything you've been involved with that has that because of your sheer Talent now I'm not blowing smoke up your ass I'm telling you the truth you wouldn't allow it to be there but you've gone sideways on things because you thought it was the best thing but then you got them back on based on audience feedback I'd like to ask you about your relationship ship with art versus science let's change the phrase in fact that's the title of one of the chapters of my new book which is called had a score in Hollywood and it's not about sleeping your way to the top that's a good title but it is about the pitfalls the experiences of getting to a green light why some movies make it why some don't and one of the chapters is Art versus science and my co-writer said to me you know why don't we think about art versus the audience because science is such a dramatic place that almost has a negative connotation and it's not meant to how do you reconcile that as both an executive and as a producer supporting the artist's dream supporting the artist's Vision being an advocate for the artist and story as I mentioned earlier but then knowing that there's an audience out there W you know the the first thing that comes to mind is sort of length of movies when a filmmaker is an artist and is either given Final Cut of the movie or has managed to emotionally negotiate it with the studio so that the studio is letting them put out the version of the movie that they want often the movies run long and often it ruins the experience it takes away from the the humor and the funny they're indulgent there there are parts that are left in that don't move the story that bog it down they repetitive in their emotional beats yeah and it's to their it's it it's to their detriment and you know we're not making we're not putting a play on in a park that everybody's volunteering to be in we're spending millions of dollars on a business that is a finite business you know if a movie doesn't cost that much you can take chances you can make a Dogma film and light it with candles and oh I love that you just said that cuz guess what another chapter is called to the book every movie if made and marketed for the right price should make money you need to know who you're making the movie for make a movie for everybody make a movie for somebody but don't make a movie for yeah 100% demographically there's psychographics when you talk about attitudes and behaviors but you better make that for a price but let's go back to your philosophy about art versus audience you've had this in your career CU I've witnessed it you've had directors who are well let's say artists URS or at least have that mentality and who don't necessarily want to listen to the audience how do you grapple with that what do you say to them you ask them to indulge you and to test a version of the movie that makes the changes that you believe will have great impact I actually have bigger concerns about directors who are too eager to please and just want to change everything and have no conviction at all because I think you lose complete perspective that that alarms me probably have you worked with directors like that well I I've I've worked with a couple of directors that have been willing to throw the baby out with the bath water and have maybe missed you had to be the conscience said put that back in that was a beautiful delicate moment might have been quiet it might not have seemingly progressed the story but it establishes a relationship you just took the sleepwalking scene out of MC Beth what are you kidding me it's the greatest scene but that's not what the audience was really saying sometimes I will gain respect in my interpretation of the data when I say I think you cut too deeply I think you need to bring this character back I think you need to look at different takes of close-ups because they're not feeling maybe you're in too many medium shots or two shots and you need to get closer yeah I completely agree you have to let things breathe sometimes what is your relationship with the audience I love being in a theater and feeling the energy and the movie that I remember the best is actually not a movie that's about women at all it was called Rookie of the Year and I think you were there of course I was and I remember Barry Diller actually came to this one screening and he sat at the front and I went I'm going Bob Harper produce it or something yeah he did that's right Bob Harper produced it and I remember it's about a little boy who breaks his arm suddenly he can throw a baseball over a 100 miles an hour and he brings the Chicago Cubs back to life they'd lost all hope of ever winning and we shot it at Wrigley Field it's so cute it's so much fun and it really worked with the audience the screening that I'm remembering was practically all little boys and their moms and I remember following Barry's lead because he would go down to the front of the theater and look back at the audience which could freak people out if you're sitting too close to somebody who's has done it for years but I just I decided and others Jeffrey katzenberg I Remember by the way Jeffrey and Joe Roth would always ask me early early early on what was the recruit ratio how many invitations did it take to get one person into a seat that's such an interesting isn't that interesting because that is very profound that one of the best correlations is a recruit ratio to how well the movie is going to do it also speaks to early testing preg green light and saying what's the interest the inate interest in this idea what are people hungry for that they haven't seen in a long time exactly why does that seem like fun but this was an audience of little boys and they were so engaged they were laughing their heads off they were so happy it was magic that was a really rewarding screening I knew the movie was going to work from that what did you do with the movie you were the executive I was the executive yeah I developed it wow wow wow wow from a pitch with Sam Harper who do you like teaching I like teaching I've always wanted to be a teacher because teachers were so influential on me but I've always wanted to have great War Stories to Tell and who's your favorite favorite guest artist oh my my favorite guest artist would have to be Kevin getts I mean come on oh please no you're such a live wire always fun you know what's so funny that when you you say you tell the kids this is you know research and they're probably like oh research and it's almost always their favorite like you you make it very very Lively well because it's about getting the note beneath the note you know it that's always a really important thing to learn as a student that an audience may tell you something they may say that they hate a scene but really without that hated scene the movie doesn't work at all and their hatred is because the character is incredibly scary and unlikable and the note beneath the note is it's Fierce and the thing that's not working might be something else but the note beneath the note is really important it's both important when you're getting notes from executives who want to help shape the movie in a certain direction because sometimes they will be very specific and prescriptive and the prescriptive note may not be the best way to fix the thing they want so it's really important to know what the note beneath the note is and that's something by the way Kevin you've been very very helpful with in testing you have a really good radar for hearing what the audience is saying beneath what they're saying they're saying one thing and yet they mean another that often happens often often and you have to almost hear what they're not saying sometimes yes because sometimes it's uncomfortable to speak what they have discomfort with but you see the evidence of it I don't always but you have in my world that's the art and the science well that is the art of your science because thank you that's the thing that makes you absolutely invaluable and makes the process of testing with you so exceptional W it's not just the numbers the numbers are great to know they're great to look at but it's the way those numbers are interpreted and it's not the positive spin you put on it but it's the intelligence spin you put on it the investigative the ruminating that you do after the screening the thoughtfulness about what the audience is trying to tell you well now that I'm beat red a God bless you my dear keep doing what you're doing cuz you do it so well and we need you the feelings Mutual ah to our listeners I hope you enjoyed our interview and have no doubt that you will enjoy many of Susan's films that we discuss today for More film making and audience testing stories I invite you to check out my book audience Loy at Amazon or through my website at Kevin 360.com you can also always follow me on my social media next time on Don't Kill the Messenger I'll welcome longtime producer and film editor George FY Jr until then I'm Kevin getts and to you our listeners I appreciate you being part of the movie making process your opinions matter