How to Write a Book

hey kids great to see you again so i'm here with new york times best-selling author marcus brotherton uh and we actually have a connection because uh he actually helped me uh write my book he actually was my ghostwriter and there's really no mention of it in my on the book but uh anyway so uh he helped help me help walk me through that and that's what we're gonna end up doing in this video we're gonna talk about how to write a book because i had no idea when we got into it uh so and marcus was a nice calming voice and i think you'll really enjoy um getting to meet him and getting to know a little bit about him uh so but first i have a dad joke for you so you know my favorite dad joke about books and i've actually used this before so but um recycling uh so i'm reading a book on anti-gravity i can't seem to put it down ah so you guys probably finished that for me right because you already knew that i have said that before those have been with me for a long time so uh yeah so before we get started um marcus tell us a little bit about yourself yeah so it was an absolute pleasure working with rob and and let me just give you every reassurance in the book that rob is the real deal and uh we were able to do kind of this a deep dive into his life over the course of writing his book and what you see is what you get and rob rob loves you and rob cares for you and it's just great to see that wow that's uh now i don't know what to do i wasn't expecting that we didn't talk about what we were going to talk about so that's very kind so let me throw one back at you i think talking to you um was you know that because that was a little bit of a traumatic time in my life i suddenly this thing blew up i didn't know what to do and then it was you we would talk every week you'd call me and you have such a calming voice too and just kind of oh tell me a little bit about that rob it was almost like i was getting therapy while we were writing the book because you know it is my book is about uh my past and going through all that and so um yeah so i think we really became pretty good friends kind of through the whole process and you were such a calming voice too is i don't worry about that but because i don't know what i was doing you know you've done this uh several times right so anyway so i actually started my writing career as a newspaper reporter and really enjoyed working at the newspaper it was actually a time when newspapers were kind of going downhill it was the the start of really the the digital revolution of newspapers and so i had a former uh journalism professor who had gone on to work in books and he started to uh to send me some freelance work and gradually my freelance career uh built to the place where i went full-time freelance that was back in 2005. so here we are a bunch of years later and i i work full-time in books absolutely love it yeah it's very cool and you definitely know the ropes which was really helpful it's just helpful to have a guide and kind of like what i try to provide is somebody that's going to bend there so you feel calm and that's because it you know where do you how do you do it and so we're going to talk about that today you're going to kind of give uh you know we're not going to get into the nitty-gritty but at least some pointers that you've learned probably the hard way and that's what i've tried to do is try you know try to pass on some stuff that were up that i've learned the hard way um so that i could uh yeah pass them along to other people so they don't have to go through maybe so many bumps to get there absolutely it can be a really steep learning curve the whole commercial book industry by commercial i i mean writing a commercially published book as opposed to a self-published book to have a publisher back you steep learning curve it can be done so we want to talk about do you want to talk about how to write a book yet or well let's uh what first um real quick so my book came out in may of 2021. you've uh you've written other books too so we'll talk talk real quick about your your latest book but were you part of band of brothers or yeah so tell us your connection there yeah so uh band of brothers was a hbo mini series that came out in 2001 about world war ii veterans uh paratroopers who fought all the way during world war ii um i was fortunate to live uh near lieutenant buck compton who's one of the original abandoned brothers he was 85 when i met him he's passed away now tremendous man just lived a legendary life so he really got me into working with world war ii veterans i did i helped compton write his book and then things snowballed from there and here i am a number of years later doing a lot of books about world war ii yeah okay so that's the connection because when i um when my manager first connected us i'm like i've got to find out a little bit about this guy and it was just interesting to to see what what you've been involved with and ben the brothers is such a you know it's got such a huge following and we used to even refer to in sales we'd call ourselves the band of brothers that were going out obviously doing something you know much less uh traumatic than what those people went through but we did look at ourselves as you know we're going out and trying to win new business and we would kind of have each other's back and stuff and we would joke about that but it does have so much everybody's familiar with the band of brothers i think so that's very cool they've been a part of that so this latest book is called a bright and blinding sun yeah sorry i saw your other copy over there i was looking for it but um yeah so i don't know if you wanted to hold that up or hold you can grab that that's fine yeah so marcus actually sent me this uh book as well um and i read it and i really really enjoyed it um i'll let him tell you about it probably let me tell you tell a little bit more of a background and i'll say what what i really liked about sure so it's a true story um it's about an underage world war ii veteran he was actually 14 years old when he enlisted and he did that to escape a troubled home life he his parents were split up he lived with his mother for a while and things got rough there he lived with his father for a while and things got rough there so finally his father kind of gave him this ultimatum uh you know you can live here you can live here but you can't live here with me and so young joe johnson kind of as a bluff said he you know well maybe i'll just run away and join the army uh and his bluff became reality and he did he went to a recruiter's office in pasadena and obviously the days before the internet and young joe johnson at age 14 got lost in the shuffle and made it into the army sent to the philippines and this was actually right before pearl harbor when america entered world war ii and uh went through training and then the war hit and suddenly this young teenager found himself thrust in this very horrific environment one of the fascinating pieces about this story is that really it's a story of camaraderie a story of friendship and joe made friends with a very sort of an unlikely person um as soldiers sometimes do he was being led by uh soldiers who were much older than than he was and one night his buddies all went off to a brothel in manila young joe went with them and there he met this young prostitute young sex worker by the name of perpetua and joe and perpetua became amazing friends they did consummate the relationship once and only once and then joe revisited her more than half a dozen times and really she became his only female peer in that side of the world she was actually in some ways tragically she was a year younger than he was and yet she was working this very difficult environment what makes it fascinating is that joe developed a true sense of empathy for this young girl whose name was perpetua he began to see the world in her shoes why was she there why was she in this environment she was well she was an orphan and extremely unfortunately there just weren't a whole lot of options for young female orphans back then who were living on the streets and so joe began to to help her and she began to help him and they they would give each other hope and help each other survive um i won't give you the whole story right here yeah i was gonna say please don't tell too much it is such a great story and you do a good job of kind of you know it's a page turner where he's like i got to go to sleep but you know i'm still still reading here though it'll keep you up tonight yeah joe did some uh the the american troops uh eventually did surrender on batan um it was one of the largest concentrations of a surrender ever and young joe johnson age 15 found himself in a pow camp very difficult very difficult times but this friendship with perpetua helped sustain joe through the rest of the war and he to her yeah yeah it's very good good i didn't want you to kind of because i was like uh what yeah how's this gonna end uh so i think you i think you'll really enjoy it uh and marcus does have a lot of uh experience in writing books uh so we're gonna tap into that real quick too um again it's kind of a bird's-eye view but it's some things that he he has learned probably a lot the hard way i did actually um i don't know if you need that you probably already know it from heart right you probably know could you you probably refined it in your own mind so go ahead marcus so people ask me all the time i mean how do you write a book and uh to to that question i usually give them three principles three main principles and then explain three parts of the process and then give them one golden rule so the three main principles uh and keep in mind we're kind of kind of going at a six thousand foot level here the three main principles are this it's hard it can be done and treat the process as an investment in yourself now it's difficult um many things in life are difficult right if you want to get your driver's license or go to college or go to trade school or buy a house or whatever it is these things don't come automatically to you so yes you have to apply yourself it's difficult um but it can be done why why i start with it's difficult is really we would be doing a disservice if we told you otherwise um and so it's good to have that perspective in mind that writing is a performing art like um like dancing or like being an actor there's a lot of people who want to write a commercially published book so there is a there's a long line um but why i tell you it is difficult is on those days when it is difficult you remind yourself oh yeah yeah this isn't easy if it was easy you know everybody would be doing it you know sort of right right left and center yeah um i've been in this for a number of years and i still have difficult days even now and i remind myself yeah this is uh this is a job that is difficult but the second part of that it can be done if rob and i can write books you can write a book and i do try to encourage people with that kind of stuff and i just want to interject real quick and i try to encourage all of you that when you're trying something new um you just gotta kind of sometimes just gotta break through that wall you gotta keep keep after it keep after it keep after it keep after it don't start to write oh it's horrible i'm not good i'm done you know uh and i've compared it to baby steps because i use baby steps all the time and when you think about it with a baby when a baby's trying to walk they don't just give up you know they get up and they fall down they get up and they fall down they get up and they fall down they just keep doing it because you know they they know they're going to get it eventually or they're not overthinking it i think we as we get older we tend i guess i'm speaking for myself i i really overthink things i've gotten better with that um but i think that you know we we overthink it and we're gonna say ah i'm just not good at this and i'm just gonna stop i mean sometimes you do have to realize okay maybe this isn't for me but you gotta give it a legitimate shot yeah that's a great point i mean when i started this process i was really clueless and i asked a lot of questions a lot of people gave me a hand up i would approach people who had done it for a number of years and and said yeah how did you do it give me some pointers give me some steps and usually you find that people are really willing to help you out particularly if you kind of show yourself to be earnest and and uh and a good student yeah i think that's that expect point actually works carries over in a lot of things i've found a lot of people if you come in humbly and you just basically say hey i would really appreciate if you could share some knowledge with me like even investing even you know all kinds of things i think people for the most part are pretty willing to to help as long as you're respectful of their time right and don't come up to them when they're real busy you know or just say hey can i set up a time to to learn some learn from you i think people are pretty good about sharing sharing their knowledge so yeah so those principles yeah it's difficult it can be done um and then and then thirdly the other big principle is treat it as an investment in yourself particularly when writers are just starting to write i encourage them to read the how to books uh just you know go to go to amazon and how to write how to write a book type that in and and see what comes up and then go to writer's conferences you're meeting other writers just like yourself you're meeting agents you're meeting editors in the industry yes it is a little bit of time it is a little bit of money to to read these books um to attend these conferences but again treat it as investment in yourself the process of writing a book um it changes your reader it also changes you for better and so you want that good influx of investing in yourself yeah one thing i want to make sure i get this in the interview because i remember this with you that one one thing that you told me uh cause we were talking about my experience of building my fence and you talked about how can we what can we do to to draw the reader in and you talked about the fresh smell of cedar right and people can relate to that because this and so it's just interesting to pick up on some of that stuff now because i've written a book to see what how other people draw you in with things like that you know and i think it's true because you know everybody loves to smell this eater yeah and what i was telling rob to do there is write with all five of your senses uh immerse yourself in a scene and what does it feel like what does it taste like what does it smell like and you're going to draw a reader in yeah so three main parts to the book writing process and they are writing the book securing the contract and then promoting the book so why i mentioned each three of those is that sometimes young writers in particular myself included will write a manuscript and a full-length manuscript is a big process like if you've written a full-length manuscript give yourself a huge pat on the back you've done something that's really really cool um but anyway so sometimes when young writers finish the manuscript they kind of go well i'm done i mean i've written the book yeah really that's a third about a third of the process and it's helpful to know that going in so that when you do finish this book and people say actually you've got to do this and this and this later on you're not what nobody ever told me that okay here i am i'm telling you this right now yeah there's more to come so um writing the book um boy there's there's definitely just a lot of nitty-gritty we could get into there again my encouragement is to read the how-to books uh talk to your english professor or or a journalist you know outline the book i am an outliner i do like to know where i'm going not when i start um a lot of things we could say about grammar and and things like that but my i think my encouragement there is you will figure it out you'll figure it out when you get into it as you get into it as you're reading books as you're refining that manuscript yes it can be done yes it's difficult but yes it can be done the the second part of that process securing the contract so when you're finished your manuscript you will need a literary agent who shops your manuscript to the publisher how do you get a literary agent so literary agents um have to be on a useless word uh deliberately literary agents have to be wooed all right they can't be hired you can't just you know call up a literary agent and say hey i wanna you know come over and and and take my book they don't do that they have to read your manuscript your part of your manuscript usually and they have to be uh they have to fall in love with that they're going yes i love this manuscript it needs to be out there it entertains and forms inspires and we're going to take this manuscript and we're going to do good things with it literary agents get paid uh when and only when they sell your manuscript they take 15 standard commission and so they've really got to believe in your manuscript to to take it and shop them and how do you find a literary agent great question so one you can just google them and um it's pretty difficult to cold call a larry agent they almost always you know you're sort of get into this network of the the secretary or whatever you you can cold email uh an agent uh and that is done all the time if you know somebody in the business definitely that's an in right there the best place i think to get a literary agent is at a writer's conference actually go somewhere meet someone face to face sit down with them explain your project and and it's a two-way street where you're kind of interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you uh do you believe in what i'm writing do you have a vision for what i'm trying to to tell the world as well yeah that's cool i you know i i wouldn't even know where to begin my journey was a little bit different because i had publishers reaching out to me wanting me to write a book and i'd never written a book before and so my path was a little bit different but one thing that you kind of hit on i think it is good to to go to conferences to get to get out of your basements i guess so to speak where uh you know not a lot happens with your if you're emailing um in my experience because again i've been in sales for 30 years and sending emails or making phone calls i've had my best success when i just get in my car and i go and i just try to you know knock on doors and meet people um and even you know you might spend a whole day i'm speaking of sales might spend a whole day but boy there's so it's so much more productive and i um and get a nice nugget that i can then run with um and when you get yourself and you put yourself out there and you go to these yeah you make connections that you just can't make over an email or over uh over a phone yeah so the very first full-length manuscript i ever wrote it was uh a memoir about my first year as a father i'm actually a dad of three kids yeah we didn't talk about that yeah that's kind of important three kids and and they're it's it's girl boy girl and they are 19 14 and nine now so when uh the 19 year old addie when she was uh just a baby i wrote a memoir of my first year of a father's life oh that's cool is that spelling prank it actually never saw prince oh yeah pieces of it read in the newspaper as as articles um i took it to writers conferences to show to very various agents and they're all kind of like yeah it's pretty good but you're kind of still starting out and maybe you should do this make sure that i refined it a couple times never did sell the cool thing about that about that manuscript though is one is it's a great record uh to have for my daughter now i've given it to her now and she's read it yeah it it got me in the door it showed publishers that i could pull off a full-length manuscript showed agents that too one of the conferences that i went to um a very high level new york agent uh given my manuscript he sent me an email and he said you know i don't think we can find placement for your manuscript but i've got a different project that i'd like you to consider working on and it was about this uh this humanitarian who worked in haiti um and and the work that she was doing with with orphans i had actually been to haiti he didn't know that but i was like yeah i'd love to work on that and that process actually got me into collaborative writing and and helping people write their books and so one thing leads to another and even if you don't sort of see success in your initial project my the lesson i learned was sometimes you'll see success in a do in a new area it's good to stay an employee sometimes you have to pivot yeah yeah i like that one thing that popped into my mind that i was watching the show on uh it's a little bit awful what you're saying but but a little bit on too so ed sharon i think that's how you pronounce his name the singer i was watching the documentary on him and he was talking about writing and writing songs when he was in high school and he would write and it was horrible he said i i was writing but i just kept writing i just kept writing and then he said i i think he said that it was his his teacher encouraged him and um talked about uh you know the more you write the more it's like a pipe that has rust or you know water that's running through it that's got all this gunk in it and you just gotta let the water run let it run let it run let it run and then pretty soon it's running clear and you're writing good stuff and obviously he's uh very successful after persevering through some of what he would consider bad stuff it was probably pretty decent because i think he's got a gift but uh but anyway i think if there's something to to be said about you know getting it down and then you refine it and then you get it done and pretty soon you're you know it's you're pretty good at it right you don't have to think so much because you've kind of you've been there yeah 20 years into this now i look at some of the material i was writing when i was first starting out i was going oh my goodness but you got to start somewhere and and start confident you can do it yeah yeah so we talked about the literary agent the larry agent actually takes uh your your manuscript and usually it's actually a proposal document a proposal document it kind of explains the book that you've just written even that when i first learned that i had to write a proposal document i was kind of like why don't people just read the manuscript that i just you know sort of bled all over you know for so many months well anyway in the industry this is how it's done you write a document that explains what you've done it's a shorter document it talks about uh sort of what each chat the the the uh the big idea of the book and who you're trying to target with your with your in your target audience and outlines each chapter talks a little bit about your platform and how you're reaching readers or potentially reading reaching readers and then to write a proposal document uh google it how to write a book proposal and and their their books on this that can explain this in any number of documents so the agent will take your your proposal document and shop it to publishers and this is a really fun part where hopefully you will interest these high-level publishers who are in mostly in new york these days not all of them but most of them and that can be a really fun process sometimes you um you'll have bids on your book where these publishers there'll be more than one who's interested and so it'll go to an auction and the agent will handle who eventually shepherds your manuscript through the publication process when and if it does if and when it does get a uh get a contract you get uh what's called an advance an advance against royalties and this is money that the publisher pays you ahead of time even before your book is sold uh advances can be all over the place i've seen advances for i don't know two thousand bucks or under i've seen advances for as high as seven figures on some with some of the people that i've worked with so there is no rhyme or reason to how much money you could expect um i do encourage people to have a day job for a while yeah because it makes sense to be hard to make a living in this industry uh when you're first starting out yeah so uh the advance is usually paid in quarters uh a quarter when you start the process the quarter when you finish the quarter when your book comes out and then a quarter about a book about a year after your book comes out and so that way the the publishers kind of continually giving a little bit of money yeah that's how mine worked yeah very very similar similar timeline yep good so the final step of that process is promoting the book uh when i first started writing um boy i didn't really know anything about promotions these days uh when i have a book that's just come out there is extensive work that i do in this area of contacting people of helping to secure interviews of reaching out to people who are social media influencers and asking them to you know uh mention the book on instagram or whatever whatever is coolest uh in the day so um publishers want you to be in motion i use that term be in motion be already reaching your readers sometimes if you're introverted which is me with a capital i that whole process of of promoting a book can feel daunting and i encourage uh people to think of it that you're not you're definitely not promoting yourself you're not even necessarily promoting your book you're promoting your message what message do you want to give people that's going to benefit their lives like this book here it's actually about empathy and it's about forgiveness and it's about doing the things that you fear the most and those are all things that i believe in and so i can sit down with a friend and i can say yeah you know this book is actually going to help you it's going to encourage you it's going to inform you as as to a period of history that's quite uh quite exciting and and then when you read this book you're going to have some new things that are going to help your life maybe if you've got a burden uh you're going to be encouraged to set that burden down maybe if you're holding a grudge in your heart against somebody you're going to be encouraged to to extend forgiveness to that person as to joe johnson in this book so it really is about what is your good and noble message what message do you want to get across to your readers and then that's really what you're helping it really is something that's going to help your readers lives yeah that's that's really interesting so uh unfortunately because of covid well i mean my channel so colgan for me has been a blessing and uh you know there's things that i'm i'm with everybody else where kovid's been hard but i uh you know um when they when the publisher first reached out to me and we talked about it and then they're supposed to be this big promotion thing i mean i was naturally getting people emailing me wanting me to do interviews right so i've done a ton of interviews but there was also supposed to be i was supposed to fly to new york and do some book signing i was supposed to i think fly somewhere else there and it all fell through because we were still locked down a year later when my book came out so that was unfortunate i wish yeah i would love i would have thought that would have been a great experience too this whole thing you talk about introvert you know we're a couple introverts and and so i've had to kind of grow through a lot of that because i've been putting this in these situations and i think you guys are kind of um laughing along with me as or living vicariously through me as i'm going out on this adventure that i never ever imagined for my life but i but i would think that that would be kind of cool to go out and actually meet people that are interested in not only meeting you but reading your book and you have that kind of connection there because you do kind of feel a connection when you when you read what somebody's written absolutely yeah yeah and to put a plug in for rob's book again uh you know rob's not doing this to sort of uh you know because he wants a new minivan or whatever you know uh it's it's his vision and i know his heart in this is how can i help you and so his book is all about uh you know inspiring you or informing you or you know educating you to things of the world so there really is just a lot of good it's like he's serving up this this barbecue and he's saying come to my barbecue and uh and you're gonna go away uh full and happy that's what's in rob's book oh that's nice yeah i i was really proud of it you know it was it was daunting at first and again having a guide was really helpful my brother rick actually helped a lot too because i was having to rely on him for a lot of the history since i was young when some of this stuff happened but being able to share my siblings with everybody and um trying to pass along quality traits i can't remember the name of the book but i read another book very that was kind of similar where it was where you're able to kind of think about these different character traits that you could incorporate in your own life and that's what i was hoping to pass along one thing i need to ask you so because this is new to me uh you know you what do you do with reviews when people write reviews about your stuff and um you probably get great reviews see for for me uh i i can't help but want to know what people what they got from it and i you know you get a you get 99 great comments and then you get one that kind of sticks in your craw and i'm just being completely vulnerable here where uh man i wish i could write a reply you know so like it's on amazon and it's up there for everybody to see one of the comments was you know highly religious and you know i in my in my uh on my channel i always say god bless you so surely you'd think that you'd have a hint that i was a man of faith of some sort right and so i share a little bit more about it and then also in defense of that it is my story and if i left that out you know you wouldn't be learning about me you'd be learning about somebody else right this is my story of where where i came from and then there was another comment that said uh something like two-thirds of the book is catholic proselytizing and i thought you certainly haven't read the book because i i'm not catholic i was raised catholic and it's and two-thirds of the book i mean i told you a million times not to exaggerate yeah but uh two-thirds i mean come on you know half of the book is how-to's um and then the first half again it you know i share my my faith journey because it's my story then i would be sharing somebody else's story if i left that out and i told you that early on i said you know and i even told the publisher i said i i have to be able to to share kind of what i've been through and if it's really going to be me i wouldn't i would be doing a disservice to everybody if i if i painted a different picture yeah and thank you for treating rob kindly because i know 99 of you think and feel that way and that's great it's a vulnerable world we live in it's a public world we live in these days and this era that we're living in now i mean kind of anything that we do is archived and you have this permanent record following you around for the rest of your lives yeah if you want to write a book if you if you want to be a writer reviews are part of the process a couple things to think about there is that if you uh i forget who said it but it's like if you throw a rock in a pond it ripples out all directions and so if you do a good and noble work if you write that book if you publish it some people are going to go wow i really really gravitate toward that message and then other people sort of on the other side of of the ripples are going to go oh i didn't get that at all i had no idea what he's talking about so misunderstandings are part of life sometimes people when they do write negative reviews are are coming to the table with their own hurts um i think certainly the world of twitter is is a is a social media media platform that it's kind of it's become it's kind of the voice of rage it's kind of the voice of lament and and rage and lament are part of life um but boy if you're looking to to twitter to sort of you know build yourself up and find yourself yourself i'm not on twitter yeah for that very reason right yeah the the the good thing i think with um with if you do get a negative review and these things do happen is you just go you know um i know what i'm doing and i know why i'm trying to reach readers and i have this message that is beneficial for people that i want to get across and and you camp on your vision you camp on on why you're doing things you know know that why and that helps you get through well he didn't understand it you know that's that happens that happens in life and i'm not this person's enemy uh i would love to sort of explain things to this person it's probably never gonna happen yeah uh but you know god bless him so yeah well i guess that's the difficult thing because you know i'll i try to read comments on my own channel and i can reply you know somebody says something i can say well you know i can say something but on amazon as far as i know you know you can't if somebody makes a comment it's kind of up there for everybody to see and it's like was that necessary did you really or you feel like you're warning people or something like i'm doing something nefarious or something i you know anyway i it would be nice to at least say listen you know i think uh i think you might want to reread it because it's certainly not catholic proselytizing because i actually talk about how i left the catholic church so uh anyway it's that mindset that i think these days knowing that once you put something out there um it's gonna it's gonna take on a life of its own um and so coming back to that very first point it is a little difficult yeah it's not the easiest thing and knowing that negative reviews can be part of the process that's to remind yourself on those days when you get a negative review you go oh yeah okay well it's it's not the easiest thing in the world to publish that book yeah and yet to have that that courage and that sense of backbone to know and confidence and and knowing yep but my message is good and i'll stand by my message yeah i like that that's good it's uh this whole thing's been a learning process for me with my channel as well with with that type of stuff you know so uh yeah i don't know if we can wrap up here pretty quickly i think you we talked about three principles we talked about the three parts of the process and there's the one golden rule so the one golden rule is this imagine that you're a reader and you're walking into a bookstore 47 000 titles are screaming for your attention why do you pick up the book that you do and peruse it and kind of look at and go yeah i think i want that book i think it's going to be good my life why do you do that because that book gives you some kind of benefit it entertains you it informs you it inspires you it challenges you and so the golden rule is when you are writing a book think about that little imagery uh and remember the reader remember the reader remember the reader that's the golden rule serve the reader serve the reader in nobility and love and empathy what are you giving to the reader when you're writing your book it's not simply about you've had this great experience and now you're going to write about it to kind of get it off your chest it's i've had a great experience or i learned something new and now i want to get it off my chest so i can help the reader yes so i can inspire the reader i always remember the readers i appreciate the fact that you you're coming from that perspective i just wonder if probably not all authors are coming from it from that perspective right i mean i maybe that's my cynical side i think that's great that that's how uh how you write because you're wanting to to do something that yeah and maybe that is kind of the nugget is if you do that then um you'll have a good reception for watkins you know if you're doing it for selfish reasons or you know that can come across you know sure so yeah so is that about it or that's about it yeah i gotta tell you a little bit so uh marcus too uh this is the first time we've actually met in person which is kind of cool we got we got to know each other pretty well in covent right it was right right yeah right so we were talking uh over the phone he lives up north and we just would talk uh over the phone and so anyway pretty pretty nice to meet you yeah it's nice to meet you too finally uh in person so uh i think that's about it yeah we'll wrap this up i hope you enjoyed this um you know i think the cool thing about my channel i can do all kinds of different things uh that i can bring to you and i think you know a new york times best-selling author that's kind of cool you know it's not something you don't get to pick their brains very often and so i thought that uh marcus reached out to me i thought ah let's do that for sure i think it's a valuable thing that we can also put up on my channel so people can learn learn some things that they probably may never thought they'd ever learn or maybe they didn't know they wanted to learn but it is a it is a cool cool piece so yeah so thanks marcus thanks for being here thanks everybody thanks for watching and god bless you