Meet the Expert: Collecting Treasures: Grünes Gewölbe in Dresden and the Wallace Collection

So it is now one o'clock, so we'll make a start. So as I said, good afternoon and welcome to the Wallace Collection online, and welcome to today's talk as a part of our Meet the Experts series, Collecting Treasures, Grünsker Welbe in Dresden and the Wallace Collection. I'm delighted today to be joined by both Ada de Witt of the Wallace Collection and Teresa Witting of the Grünsker Welbe in Dresden, and I'll be handing over to them both in a few moments time. But before we get started, just a few small bits of housekeeping as always. So firstly, if you're joining us via Zoom, please submit your questions via either the Q&A or the chat function, and we will have a little time at the end to answer those. Or if you're watching along on YouTube, again, please submit questions via the chat function there. Although we are monitoring the chat function on YouTube, we're not responsible for any comments, so please make sure that all your comments are appropriate for the audience. And that's about it really, without any further ado, oh excuse me if you're watching along on Zoom, you can also enjoy a closed captioning service for this talk, which should be as standard on YouTube as well. So with all of that out of the way, please allow me to hand over to Ada de Witt and Teresa Witting for today's talk. Thank you so much, Ollie, and good afternoon. And I'm delighted to be here with Dr Teresa Witting, who studied art history and history in Innsbruck and Hamburg, and her thesis was on 16th century enameled altarpieces from Limoges. She was curatorial fellow at the Statische Kunstsammlung in Dresden between 2007-2009, and curated the exhibition Fascination of Fragility, Masterpieces of European Porcelain of the 18th Century on the occasion of the 300th anniversary of Meissen. That was in Berlin in 2010. And since 2014, she's been collaborating with Dr Ulrike Weinhold on the project Gold and Silver of the 16th to 18th Centuries at the Dresden Court as an instrument of royal prestige at the Grunzgewilbe. And within this project, they've published a few books on original paints on gold and silver, and on silver gifts and silver buffets at the Dresden Court. So Teresa, I'm very grateful that you agreed to join me. The Statische Kunstsammlung in Dresden, so Dresden State Art Collections, and the Wallace Collection are very different museums, but what connects us is the concept of a Kunstkammer, and various works of art that we have in common. And we will begin with a short introduction to the Kunstkammer, and we'll explain what that is. Then Teresa will take us on a tour of the Richard Wallace's collection of treasures. And at the end, we'll discuss some of the objects which we have in common. So Teresa, what is a Kunstkammer? What does it mean? First of all, thank you for the invitation, and thank you for the introduction. Starting with the terminology is a good point. And strangely enough, it's a German term, so Kunst- und Wunderkammer, as Kunst for art, Wunder for wonder or curiosities. Maybe we could translate it with the cabinet of curiosities in English. And it's really, it's a European phenomenon, and at about 1550 to 1600, that these sort of collections arose in Europe, but especially popular, they were in German-speaking countries. And they have, as the term says, they have quite a complex concept or complex meaning. They don't only show art in its proper sense, but a lot of wonders or curiosities. Yeah, I think that's a very important point, because today I think we think about art cabinets, we think about these works of art. But that was just one of the many aspects of the Kunstkammer, right? Because yes, they consisted of precious artworks called artificialia. But there are also rare natural objects, naturalia. And here I have a picture of the kind of cabinet of natural wonders. And you see various stuffed animals, birds, and even the crocodile on top and various shells. But there are also scientific instruments called scientificia, and objects from different continents, exotica, also items relating to history and even natural curiosities, such as unicorns horns, or even like objects that were believed to be related to mythical creatures. So a Kunstkammer, I think, was very much an encyclopedic collection that reflected the state of knowledge of that period. And I think we can say that it's like a predecessor of a modern museum. Yes, for sure. Ada, just if you go to the next slide, maybe, because for us, this is a little Kunstkammer. For us, it looks like a little bit chaotic, maybe, just as a deliberate juxtaposition of several objects. But for the contemporaries, there was a clear order. It was a sort of cosmos. It was a hidden network between all these items. I think this is also important to say, and that for the contemporaries, the emphasis lies clearly on wonders. Yes, and you mean the juxtaposition of works of art and the natural objects in this painting. Great. And yeah, you mean like they, so... They, yes. Then we should say that, yeah, the people who collected this kind of objects, I mean, they were definitely rich people, so rulers, but also wealthy merchants or scholars. And I think you will agree with me that the Kunstkammer was very much like a statement of power, right? Yes, indeed. The status of power, it was an instrument of power to show off also with their wealth and with their knowledge. And it's for sure that man, the man is able to subdue nature by showing this artificiality. This is a very important aspect as well. All right. Okay, so that's the Kunstkammer. We'll discuss it a minute further, but I just thought that it would be great if you could introduce us to your museum and tell us about your collection. Yes, maybe we just start, Ada, with the map, just to show where we are. Yes, maybe it's quite interesting to be more concrete. So I show you a map around 1800 of Europe, and you see this red colored territory. This is the electorate of Saxony. And what does electorate mean? It means the elector of Saxony, Kurfürst in German. He was able or he could elect the Holy Roman Emperor. So the electors of Saxony had played an important role within the Holy Roman Empire, and they were quite wealthy. They had silver mines, and they wanted to show their wealth. And one way of showing their wealth for sure is also collecting. So maybe we just be more concrete and go to the Kunst- und Wunderkammer we told, yes, we spoke about. And you have to imagine that every Kunstkammer is unique. Every Kunstkammer has a special emphasis. And we know from Dresden, because I tell you, we know because there is no Kunstkammer anymore. We will talk about this later, but there is no Kunstkammer. It was dissolved in the 19th century. But as we know from the inventories, from the first inventory of 1587, and this was the first inventory Elector August erected, and we know that 80 percent of the whole collection was dedicated to tools, instruments, technical instruments, optical instruments, mathematics. So this reflects the interest of the Elector. But what I show now, just to give you a glance, is some years ago the Staatliche Kunstsammlung in Dresden opened a permanent exhibition which is called Concept and Count to the world around 1600. And this reflects on the Kunstkammer, on the Dresden Kunstkammer. I mean, I love the gardening tools, and I have to say that when I went to Dresden, that was a big surprise for me, because, I mean, I didn't expect to see gardening tools in an art museum. But also, I mean, I was really amazed that they still, that they survived. I mean, 16th century gardening tools. Yes, yes. As I told you, they were very important. This was high technology at the time, and we know that the Elector and his wife, Anna of Denmark, they were very interested in gardening. And this means also a benefit for their territory, because they wanted to grow new plants, have new ideas. So the collection is not only to be looked at, but this was a collection to work with. So, yes, this was some sort of models for these gardening tools. They were used. Wow. Okay, and that's then the Kunstkammer, right? But then the Grünes Gewurbel is not Kunstkammer. Technically, it's not, right? So could you explain different collections in Dresden? Yes, yes. There is a sort of landscape of collections in this time in Dresden, so that the Kunstkammer was in the residence in Dresden and as the other collections. So what is important is to explain now the Grünes Gewurbel. What is the Grünes Gewurbel? Yes, the Grünes Gewurbel is a Schatzkammer. This means it is a treasury or a treasure chamber. It means it's a totally different concept. The Schatzkammer at the very beginning was secret. The German term is the Geheime Verwahrung des Grünen Gewurbels. This means the secret repository of the Green Vault. And why it is called Green Vault? If you look at this picture, this is the main room of the Green Vault. It was painted green. So this is why it's called the Green Vault. So it is still in existence, the Green Vault, the historic Green Vault. There are two, but I'm talking about the historic Green Vault in the ground floor of the residence. And maybe just to give you a notion, to give you an idea what it is, I'll show you some slides. Let's start. So I told you at the beginning, in the 16th century, the Schatzkammer was secret. It was locked away. And why was it secret? Because it housed important documents for the electors, jewels and goldsmith work. So these were not to be seen for the public. So they were locked away. But we are now in the 18th century. So this is the time of another elector who is quite important. It's Elector Augustus Strong, Elector of Saxony and King of Poland. And he changed the landscape of collections completely. He created new collections. He took things out of the Kunstkammer. He created the painting gallery, the sculpture gallery. And what he did, he enlarged the Green Vault. And what we see now, or what the visitor can hopefully soon see again, is a baroque Gesamtkunstwerk. So I say it's a, what is the English term for Gesamtkunstwerk? Like a total work of art. Total work of art, exactly. So this means it's not only the objects are important, but also the display. So the brackets, you see the little brackets, you see the walls. So we start here with the ivory room. Dresden is famous for its carved and turned ivory. Oh yes. So here are the examples, right? Here are the examples. And you also have to imagine that this turning ivory is a very demanding skill. It's very complicated to work the lathe. And it was even part of the princely education. So, and there was a workshop for, and the Elector August appointed two artists working in the residence for the Elector. And he produced, this is Gideos Lobinek, he produced this sort of geometrical object. They're quite complicated to make. Oh, I mean, they look complicated. I mean, I absolutely love them. We have ivories in the Wallace Collection, but no examples of turned ivory. And to me, they look so abstract. They're like modern. Modern, very modern, yes. Fabulous. So shall we then continue? Yes, we can go right from the ivory room into the white silver room. So you see the environment changes. There are mirrors. The color is red. So this is the white silver room. That means the surface is only, I say, only white silver. But if we step into the next room, you can just see the green, just the green walls. Yes, this is the silver gilt room. So the surface is different. It's silver gilt. And the mirrors do increase. It's green now. And what do you see? That some brackets are empty. It means what you see is not the total collection of silver we originally had. It's only a small part, because in 1772, many parts were melted down because there was a need for money after the Seven Years' War in the 18th century. So many parts were melted down, but there are still some objects left for our silver catalog. And how about the interiors? Because we know that Dresden was badly destroyed during the Second World War. So what we see, is it like original or is it reconstruction? Partly original. For sure, the objects are all original, but some of the mirrors are redone. Some of the walls are redone, but there are some parts that were original. So this is the next room, is the Hall of the Precious Objects. So it's the first climax, maybe we say. And if you remember this column in the middle, this was the one with the green color on it. So now it's covered with mirrors, but this is the heart of the green wall, the Hall of the Precious Objects. Maybe just look at the other slide. You see this ostrich egg. Sorry. That's okay. Just keep in mind, we will talk about it later. Okay, we can go. Just cool down a little bit. Calm down. The coat of arms room. Just see this copper gilt coat of arms of the electorate of Saxony. Take a deep breath and then go right into the jewels room. So this is maybe the highlight. This is the state treasury of Saxony as it was. The nine jewel sets commissioned by Augustus Strong. So this is, yes, the highlight we have. The showcases are our original 18th century. And then calm down a little bit again. And then we go into the bronzes room. And then we, yes, we are at the end of our little virtual tour. So Teresa, could you show us some typical objects of Grünes Gewurbel? Yes, the choice is not so easy, but yes, I can show you. Maybe, yes, maybe the one, the most, yes, the most famous one maybe here is the so-called the throne of the grand mogul Arendt Zepp, made by the court jeweler of Augustus Strong, Johann Melchion Inglinger, with his brothers, with his family, with his workshop at the beginning of the 18th century. And it costed an enormous sum. And you have to imagine that the Dinglingers, they had no commission by Augustus Strong. They just made it on their own risk. So, all right. So they just created it knowing that the elector would acquire it. Risky business, but I think they knew that the elector would not refuse. So, yes, it's a very, you see all these precious materials, this gold, precious stones, enamel. Yes, it's very, very. And could you tell us what the scale of it is? Because, I mean, it's not easy to see in the picture, being very big. It is quite big. It's the area is about one meter of 40 by one meter of 15. And the high is about 58 centimeters. So it's quite, quite big. I think I have one detail to show one elephant. Yes, you can see that it's made of gold covered with enamels and precious stones. So it's very high level work. I mean, it's absolutely wonderful. And I think we have one more, right? Oh, yeah, this one. Yeah, this is another work. It's a little bit earlier. It's from the end of the 16th century. And it's done in Nuremberg, but not only in Nuremberg. Ada, if you can take the next slide, please. We look closely at the basin, and it's made of wood, and it's covered with these planks of mother-of-pearl. It's made in Gujarat in India. So they bought the basin, and in Nuremberg, it was mounted by Niklas Schmidt with silver gilt. Yes, and during our project, we had a restoration, because it was quite dirty. And the conservator took off the mountings, the mountings, and we had a little surprise. If we look at the back of the basin, so we discovered the original Indian painting, which was also made in India in the 16th century. And they are still lively. They are still colorful as they are in the 16th century. But now, again, after the restoration, it was for sure covered with the silver mounts. Ah, wonderful. And when did it come to the collection? Yes, it's an early piece. It came around 1600, and it was original in the Kunstkammer. And then Augustus Strong put it in the green vault. And as I told you at the beginning, the Kunstkammer did not survive, because it was dissolved in 1832. Yes, because, I mean, in the 19th century, there was that fashion for Kunstkammer objects, and that actually leads us nicely to Sir Richard Wallace and the Wallace Collection. Sir Richard Wallace, a 19th century collector, one of the founders of our museum, of the Wallace Collection. And he was a great collector of Kunstkammer objects. He was not the only one. It was, as I mentioned, it was a fashion, and I could mention Ferdinand Rothschild, another important collector who acquired very similar objects. But that was not a Kunstkammer in the Renaissance sense, because they collected art, but not naturalia. So we don't have any crocodiles in the Wallace Collection. So it's, in a way, a 19th century interpretation of Kunstkammer, or some people call it a neo-Kunstkammer. But yeah, Wallace loved this kind of small, exquisite objects made of precious materials. And I particularly like this photograph that shows Wallace handling a bronze statuette. And yeah, the Kunstkammer objects, I think that they're kind of pieces you really want to handle, you want to touch them. Right, so for those who know the Wallace Collection, you'll probably associate mainly with French 18th century art. And indeed, our staterooms display that kind of art, and that was collected mainly by Wallace's predecessors. And here you see a photograph of the back stateroom. But then, what Wallace had in his more private rooms were the kind of Kunstkammer pieces. And you see the display is very different. So this is a 16th century room, which is a part of the today's 16th century gallery. And this is Wallace's study. And if you look closely, you'll see that cabinet behind his desk. The picture is a bit blurry, but I do recognise all these Renaissance 16th, but also 17th century pieces of silver. And if you look down, there's on the lower shelf, you see the very characteristic shape. It's a silver statuette of an ostrich, which I will show you in a few minutes. And here is a painting I really wanted to show you. It's in Karsera in Kunsthalle. And that shows a selection of Wallace's works of art. And yeah, I think it's just, I mean, it's one full document for us. As I read, the painting is not at the Wallace anymore. No, because, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, the painting was not a part of the bequest of the collection to the nation. So it was sold at some point. But we have all the objects. Okay, but that's even more important. We have all these pieces and it's just really, I mean, wonderful and just so unique. So for instance, if you look, you see on the left hand side, there is this wooden statuette of Hercules, right on the left. Well, here it is. And it's a very, I mean, it's a beautiful piece, incredibly important statuette. So it was already celebrated in the 16th century. And it was mentioned in the history of Padua of 1560, which makes the piece really exceptional as wooden sculptures were rarely documented in Renaissance sources. And it also has an inscription on the base, which reads the work of Francesco Goldsmith of Padua, which is again, very unique to have reference to the maker, this kind of signature. And it's also quite ironic, I think that Francesco Pomerano, he was mainly a goldsmith, but his most famous work that survives is this statuette that's made in different material. And here, I would also like to show this spectacular basin, which I go back, you see here in the background, you see the round shape of the dish. And it's truly spectacular. I mean, there's just so much going on on the surface, there are all these different motifs. So there are four elements that are represented, four seasons, planets, so many little figures. And there's this coat of arms in the centre, which is of a Medici Pope. But actually, we think it's not original to the piece, and it was added later, probably in the 19th century. And we think that possibly to increase the value of the piece, and it was a common knowledge that Wallace, he was very interested in provenance of the pieces. And if he knew that the piece belonged to an important person, he would really go for it. Alright, so I think now we'll move to the third part, in which we'll discuss some works of art, which we have in common. But for now, we'll continue with Sir Richard Wallace. And yes, here you see two slides with silver figures of ostriches. So now, the one on your right hand side is the Wallace collection piece, whereas the ostriches on your left hand side, they're in Dresden. And then in the corner, you see a coat of arms, and that's the coat of arms of Sir Richard Wallace. And it's important to say that Wallace was not only an art collector, but he was also a great philanthropist. In 1872, Queen Victoria made him a baronet in recognition of his charitable work. And the coat of arms, which he was granted, included an ostrich's head with a horseshoe. And after that, in the same year, this figure appeared on the art market. So I can only imagine that he must have been really delighted. It's pure coincidence. But then what was also nice, it's not just the figure of the ostrich, which happens that features in his coat of arms, but it's also a really important piece by a very good silversmith. It has an interesting history. It was made in Augsburg, but we know that it belonged to a brotherhood, a society of an ostrich in Altdorf in Switzerland. So yeah, there was a group of men who would meet and it was more like a kind of social club and they would meet and drink and entertain. Because yeah, I mean, this kind of figures are often seen as drinking vessels. And I see that yours are described as such as well. And I'm just also curious because you have five. So whether it's natural, it's really of the ostrich that's popular. Yes. No, we now have five, but we had 10 originally. We had 10 of these ostriches. And as you said, they were drinking vessels. In this case, I'm not sure whether they were used, because if you look, the cup is made of an ostrich egg. So it's quite fragile. I think you can't drink out of it. It's not sealed. But you can take off the head and normally, but yours, I think if it's silver gilt and you can drink out of it, that's no problem. But there is a nice story. Our ostriches also do have the coat of arms, the coat of arms of the elector of Saxony of Christian I. And we know that Christian I, he was fond of these birds because he had not only these drinking vessels, but we know from documents, from sources, that in 1580, two ostriches came via the Alps, via Augsburg, Venice, Augsburg, then to Dresden. And in Dresden, there lived two of them. We know this because in the inventory of the Kunstkammer of 1640, one claw or one foot is still recorded of these ostriches. So this is, it was... But you don't have them anymore? No, no, no, it disappeared. But we have the written source that it has been here in the Kunstkammer, yes. So the ostriches were quite famous. And they're often depicted with a horseshoe in their beaks. And yeah, there's that story, right, derived from Pliny the Elder that ostriches can digest anything, including metal, right? Yes. Also a symbol of strength. Of course. Right. There is another pair of objects, which we would like to show you. And again, the piece which is in the Wallace collection is on your right hand side, and the Dresden piece is on your left hand side. And I mean, of course, various materials represented in Kunstkammer. But for me, objects cut in stone are the ultimate symbols of Kunstkammer. I mean, they're minerals, naturalia, but then cut by men who created these amazing works of art. It was very difficult to cut rock crystal. It required great skill. And the objects that were created were immensely precious. And they were made not only in Europe. And here you see these two wonderful figures. That were made in Ceylon, so now Sri Lanka. And in fact, they're incredibly rare. There's just a small group of this rock crystal figures, picting Christ. And I mean, they're much more common in ivory, but in rock crystal, no. And they were made in Ceylon, but some ended up in European Kunstkammer. And in fact, the Wallace piece was probably in Kassel in the Kunstkammer. But then originally, they were made for newly converted locals. Yeah, exactly. They were for newly converted Catholics in Sri Lanka. And this is also the reason why they came relatively late to Europe. Not in the 16th century, but later. And this is also very special, because it's not rock crystal. It's garnet. And so it arises in 1725 in this inventory, not before. And the attributes, you see this sort of mirror, is not original. We think that we had a flag, maybe, and the cross as symbols of Christ. And if you look, maybe, take the next slide. You can see details, yes. And the technique is very different from European goldsmith art. Yeah, and also the way how precious stones are cut is very different. And yes, it's a Christian iconography. I mean, I should have mentioned at the beginning that our piece is the Good Shepherd. And maybe it's not very clear in this picture, but actually, it has a lamp on his shoulder. And there's another lamp on his lap. And your statue represents a different type, Salvator Mundi, right? That's the saviour of the world, yes. Exactly. And what I also find really interesting is that we don't know anything about these people who carved these figures, right? There's no documents. We just don't know who they were. But in Europe, at the same time, there are a few workshops that also could carve in rock crystal. And they had like status of celebrities. And I mean, mainly the Miserone workshop that was located in Milan, but then also in Prague, and they worked for the Holy Roman Emperors. And everyone wanted to have vessels carved by them in rock crystal, or parts of different minerals. They were just so fashionable, right? They were totally fashionable. That's true. And Ada, if you said the Miserone worked for the Emperors, I think it's quite interesting to stress that your piece has a really good provenance in this case. It has a very good provenance, because it belonged to the Habsburg Emperor Rudolf II, who owned the most important, the most incredible Kunstkammer at that time. And there was a group of four bowls in small, smoky parts, that's recorded in early 17th century inventory of his collection. And that this one is probably, well, it's considered the best from four bowls. And there's one in Vienna, there's also one in Munich. And maybe it's not so clear here, but what it shows, like the grotesque mask with the open mouth. And yours is the same type, but it's not the same. It's the same type, but it's not really the same artist. And interesting enough, we do not have such a good provenance with our piece, because this piece is documented in 1819. So it's an old piece, it's around 1600, but it was documented in 1890. This means it has been in the residence, in the collection, but not in the Kunstkammer. We think maybe that it was in the sort of stock, because normally they are mounted. So maybe they waited, they wanted to have a goldsmith to have it mounted, but it never happened. And then it came in the Kunstkammer without mounts. Yeah, that's what we think. We don't know, but it's likely. Yes. Well, we have another pair of objects for you. So this beautiful statuette by Giambologna. And yes, Giambologna, I mean, the name sounds very Italian, but actually he was born in Flanders, and now it's part of France. And Giambologna worked for almost the whole of his career in Italy, in service of the Medici. And he became the most influential sculptor of his time, and he was famous for monumental statues, and also for his elegant small bronze statuettes, which were made in large numbers, and they were disseminated throughout Europe, and often as diplomatic gifts. And I think that's... That's the point, yes. Yes, it's interesting, we have got four of them. And they were, as you said, Ada, it was a diplomatic gift. And so when Christian I came to power in 1586, he received, one year later, he received a fantastic diplomatic... It comprises many gifts. And there were four Giambolognas, there were weapons, there were... Yeah, there were a lot of things. And because we still have the lists, the packing lists of these diplomatic gifts, and if they come from Italy, you can imagine that there was also parmigiano, there was ham, there was olive oil. So it must have been a great surprise for the electors, and also horses, because Christian I really wanted to have these Italian horses for his stable. Yeah, but also the Giambolognas, and... And that's all listed then, that's... So they documented that they also got cheese, and they also got wine. Yes, yes, it's all listed down. And they even got a second present. So in 1587, and in 15... By whom? By the Grand Dukes of Tuscany, Francesco I, and in 1590 by Ferdinando I. Then there was porcelain weapon as well, but... So this is the stock of the Renaissance sculpture in Dresden for Giambologna. It comes from Florence, yes. And I'm really curious whether the person who received the gift was happier with the Giambologna or cheese and wine. We don't know, we don't know. I would definitely go for the Giambologna, and I have to say that your Mercury is just, I mean, it's amazing, and I personally find the composition just so incredible, and it's like, to me, it's like one of the most remarkable compositions in history of sculpture. And what is remarkable as well is the surface, is the sort of patina, which is very, very seldom. It's the original surface of the bronzes, this lacquer. And it's also so just difficult to get the balance right, the sculpture stands. Yeah, it's well balanced. So just for the clarity again, Wallace's collection piece is on the right-hand side, and the Dresden Mercury is on the left. And yes, two very different objects. Small, they're small. And I got really excited. So the Wallace piece is on the right-hand side, so that's the rabbit. And I was really excited when I found your cat, because they're just so similar, and literally, they look like they came from the same workshop. And for me, it was really useful to know that you say it's a German piece, because we were not sure about the Wallace piece, whether it was from Germany or from Spain. No, no. Yes, we think it's a German one, because they were made after German woodcuts at the time, so second half of the 16th century. Could you tell us something about the pearl? I think what is striking is not the animal, but it's the sort of pearl. This is this irregular baroque pearl, which was very seldom and very rare, and it was also a symbol of power, and a symbol of wealth, to show these pearls, because they come from either Sri Lanka, India, or the Caribbean, so they had a long way to come to Europe. And I think what is important as well, these bandants, they were either worn as a necklace, or they were sewed on the clothes. And if you wear such a bandant, this is a sort of communication, of nonverbal communication, it's a symbol. So there was no, it always had a significance when people wore them, so it could change in the context, but it was a statement. And if you wore a baroque pearl, it's also a statement that you can afford it. Yes, and I think it's still a statement of the 19th century. And we didn't really have any doubts about this pendant, so the one in the Wallace Collection, we always believe it's a genuine piece. But we have more examples of Renaissance jewels, so Renaissance-style jewels, and sometimes it's very difficult to say if it's something original from the 16th century or 19th century, because these jewels became so fashionable in the 19th century, and lots of things were made, or sometimes some old jewels were recycled, or gems, and so on. It's really difficult to date them, but I think here, yeah. It can be sure, I think. So Wallace got that right, but he not always got these acquisitions right, and that's a good example. So there's this cup, a coconut cup, and the Wallace piece is on the far right, and it's in the style of the earlier cups, but in fact, this one is made in the 19th century. But you have some fabulous 16th-century pieces. Yeah, yeah, we have got two. We have got a lot of, I just showed two, a German one. This is the goldsmith who did the ostriches, who worked for the Saxon court in Dresden, Elias Geyer from Leipzig, and he used the coconut in a polished way. And if you look at an example of the coconut cup of Amsterdam, and to say that we have got very few objects which are not German, so the emphasis on the silver collection in the green wall lies on Augsburg, Nuremberg, German silver, and a few works of Flemish or Amsterdam, so this is an incredible piece. It's an incredible early piece, dated 1572 by the Hallmark, and if you look closely at the depiction, it's an Old Testament scene, really richly carved, so it's a very, very good quality piece. And it's like an ultimate Kunstkammer piece, because you have an example of Naturalia, you have the coconut, and of course, then that was considered rare and precious enough to make this incredible silver mount. Yes, and the thing is, with the coconut piece, even we know that it has been, I'm not sure, I think the Amsterdam piece could have been in the Schatzkammer at the very beginning, so it was not in the Kunstkammer, but in the Schatzkammer, so it was very rare, yes, as you said, Ada. And here, the last pair we have, and again, the Wallace piece is on the right-hand side, the Dresden figures are on the left, and again, the Wallace piece is in a style of earlier silver figures, but it's in fact a 19th-century object, and we call him a tinker, because there are all these metal objects that hang from the figure's neck, but they also include original 16th-century metals, and I think it's a bit of a mix of different motifs, because yes, you have a tinker, but actually what he has on his back is this barrel with grapes, and that's very clear in your pieces, Lisa. Yes, I think they look a little bit strange, they look even a little bit 19th-century, to tell you, but they are not, so they have good wine barrels, they are called Bittenträger in German, and yes, they were made of silver and wood, and they were made in regions where they cultivated wine, so this, our piece, they come from, maybe marked in Frankfurt, and it was not in the Kunstkammer at the very beginning, it was in a sort of little, what is the name, there was a vineyard near Dresden, and in a winery, it was located in a winery, and then it came in 1672 in the Kunstkammer, and then it came to the Schatzkammer, to the Grünes Gewölbe, yeah, but they are very strange, and they were very popular also in the 19th century, as you told. Okay, explain the name, so it's a Bittenträger, so that means... Bitten is a barrel, and it is carrying the barrel on their back. Right, okay, Teresa, I mean, it's such a pleasure to talk with you, and I know we could continue for hours, because the whole concept of the Kunst- und Wunderkammer is a huge subject, and it's really complicated, but we only very briefly summarized it, and we have so many more pieces in common, and it was really difficult to make this. It was difficult to make a choice, yes. But yeah, I mean, I'm afraid we have to stop now, so Olli, we are very happy to take questions.