Heretic Cast Interview

How are we doing today? Great. Look, I saw this movie at TIFF, and I was like, so shook. Didn't even want to talk to people afterwards, because I was just like, I can't trust anybody. But one of the things that I really love about this movie is how it kind of weaponizes. You hear that knowledge is power, but sometimes also, too, like the lack of knowledge can harm you as well. And what I want to know is, you know, when you're starting your careers, a lot of people always have this advice that you have to follow, and this is how you're going to find success. I want to know, what was that piece of advice that you hear all the time that you kind of feel like people need to push back on? That is a hard question. I mean, yeah, this is, I'm already regretting saying this, but I feel like, especially for actors, damn, I'm really regretting this. But you know, hard work pays off, and I think it's like, you really, there is such a big luck factor. I don't think I necessarily got this movie because I'm the best actor in the world, and I worked so hard. It was like, I think there is like a certain level of luck that kind of comes along with it. And I think, if anything, it's, you know, it's not, I just, you know, people just live and drive and work hard, and they, you know, their whole lives. But I sound like I'm just putting down someone's dreams. I've had people tell me to like take every job, or just like do everything you can, get all the experience, and I don't agree with that. Because it's not, sometimes it's just not the right thing, and it wasn't meant to happen, so you have to trust with that. People often say to young people who want to go into something creative, well, you know, you better have a full-back job. Yeah, yeah. Just do, just be a lawyer for a year or two, so you know how to do that, and that'll be a full-back before you do what you're passionate about. And, you know, two years inevitably turns into 40, and I think that's regrettable. People need to go for it. Life is brief. Wow, what a fantastic question. Well, something that comes to mind, just because the film industry that we work in, it's so tough to break into, and there are so many people that came up, and they're like, yeah, but it's a lot of luck. It's a lot of luck. And for me, I believed that for a little while when I was younger, but then Brian and I, we were raised in Iowa. We grew up there, started making movies there, and the more that we made movies, and the further we got into our career, I was like, it's not so much luck as it is you're creating your own opportunities. You're really taking the initiative for yourself, and you break in that way, and the more opportunities you create for yourself, it creates perceived luck, but really you're just opening up the doors for yourself to hopefully succeed, fall on your face sometimes, but learn your own mistakes. Yeah, you still need that element of luck, but the more swings you take, and the more stuff you try, it does open up more opportunities. It's like every script you write is another lottery ticket, and you hope it hits. Yeah, and I feel like in the movie business, a lot of times the studios kind of tell you what they think will be successful, and they're kind of always aiming for broad stroke things, and we wonder sometimes if the more personal and the smaller the ideas, the more intimate, and the true to the voice of the storyteller, sometimes the bigger they can be, and can connect with people. Well, it's interesting that you say that, because I want to know how you get a movie that really delves around the intricacies of religion. You know, is that one thing people say, you don't mention this on a date, you don't talk about this in business settings. How were you able to convince the studio to say yes to something like this? We feel very fortunate that there's a home like A24, who's not afraid to take bigger swings, or make movies about topics that otherwise other studios wouldn't touch. In the process of trying to get this set up, there were other big studios that wanted to make this movie, but they wanted to make more the cat and mouse thriller version of it, and kind of erase the theological discourse from the film, and we were like, that's the backbone of this movie, that's why we want to get this made, so that topics that otherwise could be taboo, whether it's religion or politics, can at least begin to have a conversation about it, and that was really the core ambition of Heretic, was to let it be at least a conversation starter, and we're not gonna provide all the answers, but we at least want to present some questions. I feel like there's a level of charm that has to be present, but then there has to be a switch that happens, where the audience starts to feel like something isn't right, and I really wanted to know for you, how was it balancing those two, not being too charming, not being too kind, not being too menacing at the same time, how was it actually bringing this character to life on screen? Well, I felt that I had to be aware of both characters simultaneously. There's an outward character who is very engaging, and there's an inward character who has really appalling ambitions, and is very, very damaged, and I had a kind of script for both of them in my head, in any given scene, and sometimes I leant more on one, sometimes I leant more on the other, but it was very important while being the charming one to be very much aware in my soul of the other guy. There is a lot of research that you had to do to create this. Even through the dialogue, I was like, damn, am I in class? I'm enjoying this movie, but I'm learning at the same time. Can you talk a little bit about the depths that you took to actually research a topic like this, because it spans across centuries, and also too across many different religions as well. Well, when we started writing this project 10 years ago, and we got to the scene where the missionaries sit down with Mr. Reed, and Mr. Reed starts talking, and we were like, uh-oh, we don't know how to write this character, because we just hadn't done enough research yet, and so we spent, it wasn't rigorous research, but it was fun over the following 10 years to kind of, oh, we haven't read the Koran, let's read the Koran, oh, wow, so interesting, let's investigate more about the Book of Mormon, and read different religious texts, and meet with people, and talk to missionaries, and different atheist thinkers, just kind of fill our head with stuff, and then put those kind of cerebral ideas into pop culture references that we know too much about, like fast food, or monopoly, and yeah, it was just, for us, we're very excited by religion, and cult, and different people's opinions on things, it's all interesting to us, so it was kind of a fun process to write the script. It kind of made me think about people-pleasing, like you always, when you watch stuff like this, you're like, how would you get out of a situation like this? And it's almost like this idea of trying to please someone, but also, too, trying to convince someone that your idea is the only correct belief that kind of leads them in this type of situation. And I wanted to know, for all of you, you have to interact with so many different people on so many projects, how have you learned how to place boundaries on people-pleasing? How have you learned to make sure that you're protecting yourself from others who might be on? I think I've yet to figure that out. Yeah, I assume. I'm still figuring it out, I'm pretty young. Yeah, I feel like I've, you know, it's my whole life, I just, you know. I feel like this year has been the year of not creating boundaries, but being aware of boundaries, and yeah, I don't know, do you have any advice? Good advice. I've discovered, it's taken me a long time, I've discovered no's are easier than you think they are for people when they ask you endlessly. That's great advice. This or that. As long as you say it quite clearly and politely, I'm afraid I'm not able to do that, no. They're all right with it. Otherwise, you say yes and get yourself in an endless tangle of misery. Just say no. I have a Scandinavian wife who's a mistress of no, and I've not really learned it from her. Okay, we're gonna place boundaries and we're gonna say no. Yeah. No. Okay, we got this. I think what the most interesting part is, is when you think of horror, you think like something has to happen, like there's something scary happening before you, but the dialogue is the horror. As you get to see this conversation unfold, you're kind of just like, oh, this is a nice conversation, and you're just like, mm, honey, I don't think this is going good. How is it using dialogue really as the weapon to scare the audience? It was the most exciting thing to use dialogue in a way to thrill audiences. I mean, we're coming off the heels of having made two films, A Quiet Place included, of dialogue-free movies, where the tension is generated through cinematic techniques, and for us, we were like, there's nothing scarier than being in a room with somebody and they start to talk and it feels very friendly, but you realize they actually seem like they might be dangerous with their ideologies, or they might be unstable, and yet you're sitting there being like, well, I need to be polite, I need to listen to this, and all of a sudden, you discover yourself in a dangerous situation. So that permeated every scene. We talk a lot about how certainty in any context can be scary, right? So if somebody says, I know the one true religion and I'm right and you're wrong, that's scary, but also, even as a movie lover, if somebody's like, Joe Dirt is the best movie of all time and whatever you like, I disagree with, that's also scary. Certainty in any context can be frightening. Political conversations as well. So we just wanted to kind of explore that. I love that, and the use of people pleasing, how that can hurt you. I just wanna thank you both. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to speak with me. I'm sending nothing but love and light both your ways. I hope you have a great day. That's so sweet. Thank you so much. Those were great, thank you. Thank you for the great questions. Those were really good. Those questions were too good. It was like, oh no. I had an hour of that. I know. Okay, I need more time. Yeah.