Kick starting a Career in Commercial Real Estate

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this webcast entitled Kickstarting a Career in Commercial Real Estate. Thank you for joining us for what we hope will be an insightful discussion that equips you with new tools and tricks for professional success, particularly in the commercial real estate industry, or CRE. My name is Nyambi Winter. I am the Vice President of Internal Communications here at Walker & Dunlop, or WND, and it is my absolute pleasure to be here virtually with all of you today. Before I introduce our two esteemed guests, I'd like to give you a little bit of background on Walker & Dunlop. Walker & Dunlop is the number one lender and provider of capital for apartment buildings in the US. We're also the fourth largest lender on all commercial real estate, including industrial, office, retail, and hospitality, with more than $40 billion in transactions last year alone. Walker & Dunlop enables real estate owners and operators to bring their visions of communities where Americans live, work, shop, and play to life. The power of our people, premier brands, and industry-leading technology make us more insightful and valuable to our clients, providing an unmatched experience every step of the way. With over 1,000 employees across every major US market, Walker & Dunlop has consistently been named one of Fortune's Great Places to Work and is committed to making the commercial real estate industry more inclusive and diverse while creating meaningful social, environmental, and economic change in our communities. And just in case you're wondering how we compare to other successful companies out there, W&D's growth over the past 10 years is in line with companies like Salesforce, Netflix, Amazon, and Apple. Now, without further ado, it is my honor and pleasure to introduce the two industry icons who have generously agreed to share their wisdom with us today. Ivy Zellman is the CEO and co-founder of Zellman & Associates, the leading housing research firm in the country. Ivy worked her way up on Wall Street and is now seen as the expert's expert on housing research, having successfully predicted the top of the housing market in 2005 as well as the bottom of the market in 2012. Ivy has been named one of Barron's Top 100 Women in US Finance and a number one Wall Street Investment Analyst Hall of Famer by Institutional Investor. She's regularly featured on CNBC and in the Wall Street Journal, and she recently published her inspiring memoir, Gimme Shelter, in which she recounts her route to the top with insightful anecdotes along the way. Cedric Bobo is the CEO and co-founder of Project Destined, a social impact platform dedicated to training underserved groups in financial literacy, entrepreneurship, and real estate. Prior to founding Project Destined, Cedric spent more than 20 years as an investor and investment banker, including 10 years at the Carlisle Group. In 2015, Cedric was named to the 10 Top Powerful Black People in Wall Street You Should Know list. In 2016, he founded Project Destined, which has served over 2,000 students across 20 markets in the US, UK, Europe, and soon Canada, supporting them in earning internships, full-time jobs, and $250,000 in scholarships. The organization serves high school students, college students, and adults nationwide and is regularly featured in the Wall Street Journal, CNBC, Fortune, and more. Welcome, Ivy and Cedric. It's so great to have both of you here today. Thank you for having us. Yeah. Let's dive right in, shall we? Let's do it. All right. So first, I'd love for you both to take us, give us a few minutes, take us through your educational and career journeys. And can you also paint us a picture of what entry-level Ivy and entry-level Cedric was like? Ivy, let's start with you. Great. Well, thank you so much for having me on the webcast. It's hard to remember going back all those years, but we'll start with my undergrad experience. I actually went to George Mason University, where I completed a BS in accounting. And I went the accounting route as a safe route to go, knowing that no matter what, I'd get a job. And I was good at math. I liked numbers. But I started working. I actually went to night school for undergrad and worked full-time as a secretary. And I actually was working in an accounting firm. Now, Ernst & Young was Arthur Young back then. And I would ask all these professional mountains, tell me, do you like your job? Do you like what you're doing? And many of them made me feel like as if maybe accounting is not the right choice. And they said, you should go get a job on Wall Street. So that became my obsession. And I eventually got a job at Salomon Brothers, working in investment banking and corporate finance. And so my focus shifted as an entry level professional to having corporate finance experience. But I'd say that the young Ivy back then was extremely ambitious and wanted to make a ton of money. And that's what really drove me. I had student loan debt that I needed to deal with. And I was pretty aggressive. I think back then it was work as many hours as you have to do whatever you have to do to be successful. And that included, unfortunately, investment banking and a two-year program, some weeks that were 80 to 100 hour weeks and all nighters. So I paid my dues. That's a great story, Ivy. And I think a lot of folks can relate to wanting to pay those student loans. And I think a word that comes to mind for me is being inquisitive. Just imagine if you hadn't asked, is this the right path for me? You could have gone on and been an accountant, but look at you now. Thank you. Cedric, I'd love to hear about your career journey and what young Cedric was like as well. Yeah. I mean, first I'm from northern Mississippi. I say it every time because I just love that place. And I grew up with a great grandfather who bought a hundred acres of land in Mississippi and built a series of agricultural businesses. And I wanted to be just like him. I wanted to be an owner. I had no idea how to do it. I studied engineering in school because my mom said that's what smart people do, like math. And then I happened to do a summer program at Harvard Business School that kind of refocused me on business. And then I did a year abroad at Oxford to study politics, but I played rugby with folks that were doing investment banking. It sounded like a more profitable approach to math than what I was doing. And so I went into the summer at Salmon Brothers and they put me in the private equity coverage group. And I discovered there were people who use other folks' money to buy stuff. And I thought that was a worthwhile profession. And so I spent a summer at Salmon Brothers, then went to a firm called DLJ for two years as an analyst. And I think in those early years, I mean, I was just hungry. I mean, I was curious and I was a little bit nervous. I didn't want to make mistakes. And I think I overcame that nervousness, that fear by just sort of overcompensating, by getting in early, staying in late and just seeing if I could find someone who would teach me something. And I think my whole goal in the beginning was just, I thought I could outwork people, but I needed to find something I was passionate about. And I thought the capital raising business was just fascinating. As I spent two years, just being a sponge, finding good mentors and really just trying to invest and learn a bunch so that someone would continue to give me a shot at life. Great. Thanks, Cedric. I hear a common thread there in terms of having that ambition, putting in the hard work, sometimes a lot of extra hours and networking, asking people questions. So thanks for that. Cedric, I'd like to stick with you for a minute. You spent a significant part of your career, 10 years, in fact, at the Carlyle Group. Can you share a bit more about that experience and how it helped inform and influence the work you're doing today? Yeah, I think the path to getting there is important. I still think the business of raising capital and helping people achieve their goals is a fascinating business. And I think it puts you just around some spectacular people. And as I began to get some private equity, I thought, wouldn't it be fun to go and spend some time trying to learn how to invest money, but also trying to make a dollar into a dollar 20 every year. And so my goal was to figure out how to try and do that. I worked at a few middle market private equity firms and went to Harvard Business School. And then after school, I spent some time doing European private equity and then joined Carlyle. And I think what I love so much about Carlyle is that everything about that place was about trying to create an edge so you could do well for your clients, your customers. And so I spent two years doing largely industrial-focused buyouts, buying ships and railroads and things like that. But I think what I love most about that firm is that every time you put forth an investment memo, the focus was, what's our edge? What can we do to add value to something after we buy it? And I tell my students all the time, anybody can buy something and lose money, but how do you buy something and then have a perspective on how to add value? So those 10 years really taught me a lot about how do you develop a unique value proposition? How do you add value and support a CEO in achieving their goals and create lots of opportunities for employees to grow and develop and improve a business? So I love my time there. I worked in Asia, I worked in Europe, but I really just was a sponge trying to learn from leaders who were investing out the folks' money. Great. Thanks, Cedric. Ivy, I'd love to hear about your experience as an analyst on Wall Street. What was that like starting out? How was it similar or different from today? And how did you differentiate yourself from all the other analysts out there? Well, I actually moved into equity research after the two years in corporate finance. I actually tried to get into Harvard. Cedric, I didn't get in as well as I applied to two other Ivy League universities to get into MBA program. And I all of a sudden was knowing my job was coming to an end. So I started looking internally at Salomon Brothers and there were openings in equity research. And I didn't know much about equity research, but as I started out in equity research as an associate, I really loved that I had to dig and really understand every aspect of companies operating in the space that happened to be housing. That's where I fell into. And I feel like you're a little bit of a detective. You know, you have so much opportunity for skills that you can utilize from modeling, writing, and you really have to know how to sell. And I really found myself in a role that really suited my personality. And I was able to early on find ways to differentiate myself. And I think like Cedric said, you really have to find ways to stand out and there's, you know, call it in every sector where you have equity research. It could be 15 to 25 analysts competing for institutional clients' attention. So how do you create a differentiated product? What do we do to add value to their process? So I started talking to private companies that fortunately in the housing market and commercial real estate, it's highly fragmented. So you don't have to depend on what public managements are telling you on a quarterly basis as they give you the three-month report card. Many analysts are really very dependent on what managements tell them on these, you know, public conference calls and relay whatever their strategies are. And they just take that as given where you go above and beyond and you dig in the channel and you talk to competitors, suppliers, any lenders, people that are working with them. That really was my edge where I found that having channel checking and networking to do that was really my value add. And that's really how I built my business, which enabled me after 10 years at Credit Suisse to start my own firm. So I think it was really a pivot to the success that I've had was going after this ability to learn and to be inquisitive and dig as much as I can outside of the traditional public management team discussions. Yeah. I heard you talk about networking in that explanation there. I love that you can talk a bit more about the importance of networking and mentorship and how those joining us on the call today could go about finding those networking opportunities and mentors. What should they be looking for? Well, I think that people that inspire you today, you guys on this call are afforded the opportunity to listen to podcasts and watch webcasts. You know, back in my day, there wasn't those same tools. So you had to be really proactive at going to conferences or asking friends and family, do you know anyone that's in finance or do you know anyone I could talk to that works on Wall Street? I mean, I worked out of the gym in Virginia when I was attending George Mason and every person I'd meet, I'd say, do you know anybody that works on Wall Street? And just really continuously asking for help. Help is really what we have to all appreciate. It's okay to ask for help and the importance of mentorship. Listen, I've had many mentors over my career. Even to this day, I have a woman who was the housing analyst at Salomon before me, who's now on boards and then I retired and I still will call her and vent to her about things that are bothering me. So I think that we all have to have someone that we can lean on and how do you find that mentor is who do you click with? But mentees really have to do the work. Like if I have mentees and I have probably a half a dozen mentees right now that I'm nourishing and working with and if they don't call me, I don't chase them down. They've got to be proactively reaching out to me. And when I've given them assignments and told them to do things to improve their process and they don't do it, they're gone. I don't give people second chances. It's like, this is what you need to do and read these books, read the Wall Street Journal every day. And if I ask you a question and you don't know something, I'm going to know you didn't read the journal and I know that you're not paying attention. I think those are easy things that you could do as a mentee and a lot of people fall short of it. So it's passion. Are you passionate? And if you're passionate, the mentor can sense it. That mentor will go out of their way to help you. And I think that we get a big return on our time. But if people fall short, that's really where I think that we don't want to put the effort in because we don't see that passion. So that's really what separates the winners, I think. Thanks, Ivy. Cedric, I'd love to hear your thoughts on what Ivy said. Anything you want to build on from that? Yeah, I mean, I think so much of life is, you know, and being successful is knowing you deserve to be successful and demystifying how to get to success. I think that job one is finding a mentor starts with you having a goal. I think when you have a goal, it allows you to go out and find people who can support you along the way and then be of value to them. You know, I also think that, you know, there's something about sort of execution and doing all the stuff you need to do. And then there's gratitude. Like, I just have this belief that curiosity and gratitude, when you mix them together, they're superpowers. So if you can have a goal and you're curious about how to achieve that goal, and then if I meet Ivy and we have a good experience, I send her a note and say, thank you, or maybe here's a book I just read that you might like based on what we're talking about. I think you have a friend for life. And so I think the part of networking is being genuine, connecting with your goals and then with their goals. Because sometimes along the way, your mentors are trying to achieve things that you could be supportive in. Trying to find that way of adding some value to their lives is incredibly important. And I think just to add one other thing, because you said it so eloquently, but I would add that humility is something that I really look for. And integrity is a little, you know, game changer. If I sense someone is BSing me, you know, if they don't know, if you don't know the answer, say you don't know, but don't BS me. But I think humility goes, you know, for me, the longest opportunity for people to really show that they're genuinely curious. They want it badly, but they're not in an arrogant way conveying that. And so humility is really an integral part of what I look for in attributes in people. Right. I hear that ambition, that hunger, humility, a bit of a give and take, but recognizing that as a mentee, it's incumbent upon you to really foster that relationship and do the work to grow that relationship and learn. So thank you for that. You know, we've talked about your amazing careers. You've had wonderful career trajectories or trailblazers each in your own right. I'd love to hear about some of your biggest challenges that you faced along the career journey and how you overcame those. So do you want me to go first? Sure. Yeah. Ivy, please. Thanks. So I was fired when I worked at Salomon Brothers as an equity analyst after eight years of being employed by Salomon Brothers because Salomon was acquired by Smith Barney. And therefore there were two housing analysts, one with myself and one from Smith Barney. And he was ranked higher than I was at the time. And this was in 1997. I actually beat him in 98 by a pretty large margin. But in any case, they chose him over me. And so I was out of a job. And I think that I found myself crying on the couch, feeling very sorry for myself. And what I really learned from that is failure can be your greatest success. And to me, I felt like a failure having not been the chosen one of the two. But I had to pick myself back up and I had to go out there and market myself and why someone at another bulge record firm, why I would add value by being their housing analyst. And so I think that it built my confidence to recognize that I was marketable, but it was getting off my ass, frankly, and not feeling sorry for myself and picking myself up and recognizing that this is a new opportunity. And it was a better opportunity for me because it really showed my market value. When you stay at the firm you grew up at, where you're sort of the organic greenfield, so to speak, you really don't ever know your market value. So I went out there and I had a higher market value than I realized. So it turned into a great opportunity for me. So that was a big challenge I overcame. Great. Thanks, Ivy. So if you fall down, that's okay as long as you get back up, right? Great. Cedric, what about you? What was one of your biggest challenges and how did you overcome it? Well, I think it's an ongoing one. Again, I make the point about a big part of being successful is knowing you deserve it. I think whenever you're competitive and you have big goals, one of your biggest challenges is managing that internal voice. I think it's one of confidence. Yes, it's important to be humble, but when you're taking on big goals, you've got to manage that internal voice that says you're not good enough or you're ill-prepared and you've got to overcome it with curiosity. And I think that the way I've always overcome that is by having a circle of people who just give me energy and confirm me, but also give me constructive feedback like, hey, go and work on these two areas. And so for me, it's really always managing that internal voice, setting big goals, you know, never always outworking your opportunity, but then surround yourself with a set of folks who push you, but also confirm you when you need that little bit of support along the way. An example I always use is that when I left Harvard and I moved to London, and I told my wife I wanted to live in Notting Hill because that's where Hugh Grant lives in one of those family movies. And my wife was like, well, in my family, we don't rent people's houses, so can we afford to buy them? I was like, I cannot. And I said, well, she said, how are we going to live there? I said, well, I guess we're going to try somewhere else. And my wife said, what about trying to buy something? And I said, well, who's going to loan money to me? I've never worked in London. I got no credit track record. And my wife said to me, man, for someone who left Harvard, man, you don't have a lot of confidence. And then my wife was like, have you called somebody? And I called a few banks, and someone offered to give me a loan for 70%. I was like, well, I don't have up to 30. I said, what about a loan for 90%? And so I quickly went from having no confidence whatsoever to having a support system. And ultimately, I got a 99% loan to buy something. And it just told me something, which is that sometimes you got to ask for the order. You got to believe in yourself. And you got to put people around you to help you get into the position to be successful. So just manage that internal voice and having that community of folks is an incredibly important piece of your career. Wow, that was really powerful, Cedric. Thank you for sharing that. Taking a note, manage your internal voice. Merry well, merry well. And merry well. Have a good support system. Managing your internal voice and believing in yourself. And I think having one of the things I really overcame was being the contrarian in 2005 when we were worried about the housing market was a bubble and talking about it and being the sober person of the party that no one wanted to hear from, and even my colleagues internally. And it was really hard to stick to my guns. And I, despite tough days and stocks going up in my face and being wrong, I persevered and continued to do the research that supported my analysis. But that was a really hard part of my life, being in a position where we were wrong for a short period. Well, it was a long period, actually. It was over a year before we got somewhat vindicated. But believing in yourself and continuously confirming the work that you've done, never get complacent. And I think that that enabled me to stay the course despite a lot of, I'd say, opposition. Great. Thanks for that add, Ivy. I'd love to shift gears and focus on CRE specifically for a little bit, if we could. Sure. First question. So, you know, commercial real estate is a very broad term for an industry that has many different career paths. Cedric, can you give us a sense for the breadth and depth of roles within the industry? And then, Ivy, if you can build on anything that he shares, that'd be great. Yeah. Well, the first thing, and I'll just tell you why I love it, because I always start with, like, why do I think it's so amazing? And that I've worked in lots of industries. And, you know, where else can you both shape the skyline of your city, but also learn how to buy a small building in your neighborhood and impact and build community in a small neighborhood? And I just think there's something special about real estate in that regard. For me, what I think is so interesting is that I can go from helping people, you know, raise money to go out and buy something, so the capital market side, to doing the research that underpins it, to then actually going out and acquiring it with private capital, to then thinking about asset management, and how do I actually create value from there, and ultimately monetizing it? I just think that whole idea of going from raising the capital, to deploy it, to adding value, and then ultimately returning value is just a fascinating area. So, for me, I always loved the capital-raising side, but it really opened up so many other areas for me, because one challenge I won't mention, but I'll connect it to CRE, was that part of the challenge is just the awareness of the range of opportunities. And when you're on the capital-raising side, you're just meeting all these folks who are involved in the entire supply chain, and you just grow from there. So, I just think there's a range of ways to both shape the skyline and impact your neighborhood that has always been fascinating to me about real estate. Great. Thanks, Cedric. Ivy, anything you want to add? You know, as a Wall Street professional, you know, analyzing the residential housing market, predominantly the for-sale and the for-rental market, you know, what I see is really incredible dreams come true for, you know, today's consumer, where they can watch a home, a community built by developers that enable them to, you know, raise their family there. And I think there's lots of aspects, whether you're working in, you know, the actual development aspect of the business, or you're running on an operational side. But I think there's, at least as an analyst, looking at career opportunities, I think that, you know, being in multifamily is probably a better career choice, only from the perspective that, you know, when you have a cash-flowing asset, an annuity stream, and being able to, you know, have a way to hedge inflation, I think that there's a more staying power. It's not as cyclical as, let's say, the resi side on the new construction. So, looking for, you know, more of an opportunity to be in the segment of the market that probably has more sustainability. But overall, I do think that there's plenty of different roles within, you know, commercial real estate. You know, today, I don't know that office is the first choice for many young people looking at careers, worried about work from home, and, you know, which of the asset classes are likely to outperform one another. And I think, you know, whether you're looking at industrial, or if you're looking at niches within hospitality, luxury right now, you know, we could use a lot more luxury condo and luxury rental. Try to find a two-bedroom in Miami right now. So, I think the nice part about really commercial real estate is that pretty much every top market, there's going to be opportunity. So, it also goes back to, like, where do you want to live? You know, you want to be in the southeast, you want to be in the southwest, you know, where are the opportunities the most prevalent that would enable you to have a quality of life at the same time being in the residential real estate market? So, there's tremendous opportunity in the space, and I think it's probably resi is where I lean, just because that's what I know, but I do think that the asset class is going to outperform the sort of non-resi in the next, you know, call it five or ten years. Thanks, Ivy. It sounds like there's a lot of opportunity to grow professionally, a lot of opportunity out there in the broader real estate industry. Why is commercial real estate real estate a lucrative industry to start a career in, in particular? You want to start, Ivy? You want to start? Yeah, I mean, I think first, I mean, like, I love buying companies for, you know, for a long time, but I've always loved real estate because it's such a fragmented industry, and I think there's such creative approaches to financing, right? So, when you own a building and it's leased up and it's got all these cash flows coming in, you can smartly use leverage and generate high returns on your investment, which creates opportunity for everyone involved in that process, from the capital markets folks, the asset management folks, to the property managers. And so, I just think there's the idea of it's hyper-fragmented. It's a very, very much local business, and there's so many critical components to all those roles. And what I think is so neat that all the roles I've mentioned, whether it's capital raising, the investment and asset management, they're all highly entrepreneurial. And so, I think those aspects of it, the fragmented nature, the ability to use leverage and lots of different sources of leverage, just make it a phenomenal opportunity. And then there's the entrepreneurial piece to it. Yeah, I was just going to say the entrepreneurial piece of it is really a unique aspect. Commercial real estate offers people in America to have dreams come true, and you can be an entrepreneur in the space, and you can pursue a career that I don't think that there's many other sectors that have the staying power and sustainability. I like the cash-flowing aspect of it, but I think the entrepreneur aspect is really what is most appealing. And just to build on that, I think the challenge of it is just the awareness. When I was coming out of college, I just wasn't aware that there were these types of jobs. I think Wall Street does a better job of marketing how lucrative it is. I think real estate, there's a humble, there's quietness to the folks that are in the industry, and we don't just always highlight all the ways in which you can build wealth. But there's so many folks at every point in that supply chain who build entrepreneurial businesses and build wealth, not just for themselves, for many of their employees. And I just think the opportunity we have over time is just to share that and increase the awareness. That's a great point, Cedric. For those folks joining us today, what sort of, and they want to get into CRE, what sort of education experience would they need to be seeking out? Are there particular colleges they should be considering or degrees that they should be pursuing? Ivy, thoughts? No, I think that any area within economics, finance, accounting, people actually can get a degree in real estate. You can focus very specifically in real estate. And I don't know necessarily that I would turn someone away who's smart and passionate and hungry that had a degree from, let's say, finance, even though they were not, didn't focus just on real estate. So I think it's really any background and any school. I'm completely school agnostic. I will look at the school that they graduate from, but it's more about who they are as a person. And I think I like the grit. I like, I don't know, Angela Duckworth wrote a book called Grit. And to me, it's not the school, it's who you are and what do you offer me. And so I don't care about the major. You'd like it to be, at least in commercial real estate, I think you want to have some background in finance. I mean, Cedric said, you're dealing with significant amount of dealing with capital and need to understand the capital markets. So I don't know, Cedric, do you want to add anything? Yeah, I mean, I think what's wonderful about real estate is that they're not, folks in the industry aren't academic snobs. And so I don't think they need you to confirm that you went to a select number of academic institutions. I think what people do want to see, and I'll just highlight it, real estate folks like folks who like real estate. So I think the most difficult piece is demonstrating that you have some interest in real estate. And that's whether you come up from a finance background or a marketing background, they just want to see some evidence of it. And I think that's what's made it challenging to break into is that there haven't been these kind of apprenticeships opportunities where you may have studied marketing and you want to get some exposure. So I think that what we've got to do to support them in getting that is having just more internship programs so students can explore during the academic year, during the summer. Because I think real estate folks really want to see that you've got some exposure. And then what they really buy into is your passion, because when you buy the apartment building and you're trying to add value to it, it's going to take every ounce of your creativity, right, to be able to create value in a competitive market. And that's going to allow you really having some conviction and excitement about the sector. Thanks, Cedric. I heard that term passion, I've heard that come through a few different times here. I have another question here about, you know, what skills are most useful? So there's the soft skills, right, there's passion and conviction. Are there any hard skills that folks should be also paying attention to or trying to acquire? And if you were a hiring manager or recruiter in CRE, for example, what would impress you about a candidate? Given I'm not in CRE and it's a little different being a housing analyst, I'll let Cedric add that one. Yeah, I mean, I just have this bias, I mean, that the key to life is you got to be a compelling individual. So it's not just the soft skills, but you got to be able to convey and tell your story such that it's compelling to people. I think part of that is obviously having some hard skills. If you can demonstrate sort of an interest or curiosity or a lack of fear of financial modeling, I think that that's pretty important. If you can understand things like Argus, that's a huge, huge value. But I think not being afraid of numbers and then having the confidence to help numbers tell a story is really valuable. It's not just your ability to punch out the Excel up until late hours, but then can you explain what you've actually replicated through that model? I think that applies to any industry in any part of real estate. But I think, again, when you're looking at a building and you're in a competitive market and you've paid a full price and you've now got to figure out how to create value, I think having a sense of numbers, a sense of understanding of the market and what drives value is really, really important. I think also understanding how the job you're applying for fits into how an investor makes money. I just think you just got to understand where do I fit into this whole thing and then being able to convey that. Because in your hiring, it's like, oh, you really get what we do. I always criticize some of our students because they think the property manager is like the janitor. I'm like, well, by the way, all the cash flow we're talking about, they're collecting that. All the sort of experience that your tenants are going through, that's the property manager. So really having an appreciation of all of these roles and how they add value, property management, asset management, I just think it's critical. So knowing what you're applying for and then knowing what you bring to the table and then telling a story around that. And I would add, just prompting some thought, was just the idea of do your homework. I can't tell you how many young adults will apply to Zellman and haven't done the background to understand really what we do. And so stepping in and doing your homework and making sure that you've gone on the great internet web, worldwide web, and it was much prior to talking to a senior leader that you're applying for. But we like people to have proficiency in Excel, PowerPoint. So those are hard skills. If you walk in and you have those, you're going to be at an advantage. And there are also people, if you're applying outside of CRE, but just in terms of Wall Street, people will go and get their CFA, going above and beyond and showing that you're, again, differentiated. I think those are hard skills that you can pursue and put yourself in an enviable position because you just have more hard skills that just puts you at a higher level than your peers. Thanks for that add, Ivy. I'm sure you're both well aware that the real estate industry in general and commercial real estate in particular has been and continues to be an industry largely dominated by white men. I'm sure you're curious in terms of what strides are being made in the industry as it relates to racial and gender equality from your perspective. Cedric, let's start with you. Yeah. I mean, there's two sides to this equation. One, I think there's just a lack of awareness around real estate opportunities and real estate. I think that's been a huge issue historically. I also think from a hiring perspective, the industry's really sort of taken the approach that we kind of hire who we know. We may not know the skills of our broker's son, but we know that he has an interest in real estate. So I think part of it has been, we've hired in a very narrow way and we haven't focused on going out to lots of institutions as a way of sourcing talent. I think as the sector grows, they can't depend on that anymore. It's a huge competition for talent. So I think that will sort of, that will begin to evolve. And then I think what we've got to do is when it comes to the talent, really share the story of real estate, the opportunities in real estate and create a opportunity set for those students. I would say that the reality of where we are today with the stock market today and really publicly traded companies are focused on diversity. And there's an acronym, if you're not familiar with ESG, that it's basically environmental sovereign governance. And so companies are being, you know, really held accountable for their diversity piece of that. And so what we're seeing is really a sea change in how they pursue and hire. And it's about time, but it's only because Wall Street, now these public companies are being judged by institutional investors and how they rate on this ESG scorecard. So it's really creating change. And I think that we see it everywhere and it's a positive thing and whatever, even if it's institutional investors that are demanding that public companies adhere to it, I think it's having ripple effects positively throughout the investment community and hopefully within corporate America. But today it's about time and we need to do more of it. And, you know, it's like my 19 year old son is like, you know, it's a terrible, you know, it's terribly white Caucasian now. And it's like, okay, well, you've had your time and now it's time for women and minorities and people of color to have more opportunities. So I joke with him not to say he's not going to have opportunities, but I think that we just have to have a wider lens. And, you know, for example, at WD, you know, we have some interns that are working or in high school and are coming into the office one day a week from an underserved, underprivileged school and are, you know, people of color, and they would have never had this opportunity if it wasn't for WD willing to bring these kids in, in an area, including Ohio, it's really a dangerous area of the hood. And these kids are coming in and learning about real estate through WD's opportunity that we've afforded them. So I don't know that that would have been something, you know, five or 10 years ago that we would have as a firm or any firm would have been as focused on. So I applaud the initiative and I think it's really an important, I think, milestone that we're signing to really to conquer and to open up to a bigger, wider net of applicants. And, Amber, I would add to that by saying the ESG, so the growth and focus, I mean, the S and ESG, I mean, I think the way we win in terms of producing more talent and opportunities is connecting that S and ESG, the talent acquisition. I think lots of folks go into neighborhoods and try and do the right thing, especially where they are actors, but how do we connect that to your HR team's, you know, goals around hiring? Because there's all these amazing new D&I committees and there's increased focus, but how do you connect the momentum around ESG with getting the talent? And I think part of what Ivy just described is that I think you've got to start young, right? I mean, I think high school programs are critical and you've got to both give them things to do, but also show them you like your job and that real estate's exciting. Then you've got to have follow-on programs in college and you've got to have programs for veterans and for moms. And I just think that we've got to connect that S to talent acquisition and support and being able to get to all the places where that talent exists. Excellent points. Thank you both. Widening the aperture, expanding the exposure, making sure that we start with the young folks and they get exposure early on in their careers. So what are some common barriers to entry into CRE and real estate more broadly, and even Ivy and Wall Street that are faced by those from marginalized communities and what are some ways that they can overcome them? I'm not so sure I'm in a position to answer that just from my perch, but I know, Cedric, if you want to take a shot at that. Yeah, I mean, I think job one is just awareness. I mean, look, I'm a small-town kid from Mississippi. I didn't know that anyone did real estate before living outside of the Century 21 folks who sold residential real estate. So I think there's a huge piece of awareness. And I think for you to get the best diverse talent, you've got to go to all the HBCUs, all the public universities, all the private universities, and start telling a story to diverse populations that you can have a good life through this incredible industry. I mean, that's the one piece. And then you've just got to create more opportunities. Like I've always had a problem with the fact that why do we just have summer internships? Well, that means a diverse student has to bet like their precious junior year summer on a sector that they don't know anyone in, right? And so we've got to create more opportunities for them to get exposure to real estate because the best part of real estate is the people, right? And the people are extraordinarily compelling, they're entrepreneurial, and they're so much of what students want. But students don't ever meet them. And so we've got to create more opportunities for them to connect. And when we built Project Destin, my whole goal was that it should be just as easy to learn real estate than to play a pickup basketball game, which is that we want to always be available for you to explore the industry and small bites and big bites. And then you're going to get the bug or you're not, but you're going to see how this industry and the skills you're building can do great things in terms of wealth creation, but also in your community. Thanks, Cedric. Another topic that is top of mind for everyone is COVID-19, which is an evolving situation. How has COVID in particular impacted the CRE industry, or the broader real estate industry? I can kick off and just say that, you know, it's been a remarkable surge in demand for shelter overall. And I think that's really a combination of factors remote remote work because of COVID has changed how people live. And what we've seen is, you know, the desire for safety and space. And today, you know, suburbia is on fire, and you're seeing massive amount of development. So, you know, what it felt like as an analyst, you know, here we are in March, I remember we published a report March 23, in 2020, to have to provide a macro outlook, because here we were shut down as a country. And what is that going to mean for residential real estate? Well, if you're going to lose 10 million jobs, that's not good for housing. And actually, what came to fruition was the complete opposite. You know, for a while, we had like six weeks where everything was shut down, and home sales were plummeting, and home prices were at risk of correcting substantially. But it actually in starting in May of 20, we started seeing significant increase in demand. So I think that COVID-19 has had a tremendous benefit. And the multifamily market is seeing valuation levels that we've never seen before. I mean, cap rates are, you know, pretty much close to record lows. So you know, they with today, unfortunately, we're in an or fortunately, you want to look at it that way is inflation is real. And I don't know that transitory, I don't know if you give someone a 6% raise, you're gonna say, Alright, well, I'm gonna take it back now. So if inflation is here, there's no better sector to be in than commercial real estate. And I think that we're seeing that private investors and overall capital is is really shifting their allocation to commercial real estate. So we're seeing tremendous interest in the space both for primary buyers as well as non primary buyers. So it's it's hot right now. So it sounds like now's a great time to be entering the industry. Cedric, anything you want to add on top of that? No, I think I recovered well. And the only thing I would add is just I've been most impressed by the innovation and the resilience and you walk around my neighborhood now and look at the restaurant industry and how innovative they've been, you know, with outdoor dining, delivery companies. And then just I think students are getting a chance to really sort of wow, that, you know, the multifamily industry is incredible, the resilience of it is just remarkable. And so I think we're showing off some of that and then the industrial sector obviously is doing what it's doing. So I, I'm just really excited about the innovation and resilience of real estate. Awesome. So if you could predict the future, and Ivy, I'm convinced you just might be able to give me a track record. What does the commercial real estate industry look like 5, 10, 20 years from now? Well, I really am only focused on one really sliver, which is the resi side. And I would just say that we have a lot of supply coming. So one of the best aspects of the bottlenecks that we're seeing in the supply chain is that it's acting as a governor to not have the supply just flood the market. So it actually therefore is coming at a very slow pace, which frustrates the developers, but it actually helps regulate the supply because there could be, if the magnitude of capital that's come into resi, whether it's built for rent, SMR, and multifamily, it's such a significant amount of capital that's really interested in this asset class, I just worry we're going to oversupply the market. And that we do have a sobering outlook on demographics. The United States population is, this prior decade was the second slowest on record. Household growth was the slowest on record this past decade. So I think if we continue to build as much as it's in the pipeline, which is at like the multi-decade high, that we could wind up having too much supply. And right now it's euphoric and there's opportunities very dependent on local market. Every market's different, but I'd be concerned that we're putting too much of our eggs in one basket and we're going to see supply is actually going to be more problematic in five years. Anything you want to add to that, Cedric? No, I mean, I've covered that extraordinarily well. There's no one better in the world to do it. I agree. All right. So Cedric, how can our viewers and listeners find out more about the industry? Where do you go to stay current on the latest developments and how do you keep up and stay focused in such a multifaceted, fast-paced industry? Yeah. Well, I mean, this is Ivie's point about podcast. I mean, I think Willie Walker's now a superhero in real estate because of his podcast. I just think that podcasts are really remarkable because there's all the data in the world, but what we're really looking for is folks like Ivie and Willie to help us interpret what's going on and to really benefit from all the inputs. I mean, look at all the customers that Walker has across the planet, right? And I, when Willie's sort of interviewing folks and describing what's going on, there are lots of data points he's collecting and really I'm learning from. So I use podcasts a lot. Of course, I read all the periodicals, but I'm always just trying to hear those voices that can help me interpret what's going on and trying to make smart decisions. So that's been just a vital tool. I listen to them from the time I wake up at 5 a.m. in the morning until my kids go to bed at night, and I'm trying to just take in the last little bit. So I really rely on podcasts and just your normal sources, and I obviously get the real deal and things like that to get what's going on in local markets. Ivie, what about you? Podcasts and other resources? We are, as a research firm, really focused on a day-to-day basis is collecting and aggregating as much information to create this great secret sauce and then have an ability to convey that to you and cement our outlook and our forecast. So we're reliant right now on about a thousand C-suite executives across the entire ecosystem that we are surveying either monthly and quarterly, where they are asked through an automated platform 20 to 25 questions. And then we collect really what I call their boots on the ground metrics that feed into our overall secret sauce. So that's really how we do it. So when I talk to an owner-operator in the multifamily market and get his perspective and or her perspective on what's happening with respect to underwriting, what are you seeing on lease rates, what's turnover doing, and not waiting for the, again, public company next time they report earnings to tell me. So it's a constant part of what we do on a day-to-day basis. And of course, we're reading everything that's publicly available. And so we've got a team of 13 analysts that are doing nothing but every day focused on learning what's happening in our ecosystem, in our space. So that's what we're paid to do. That's our jobs. Great. Thanks, Ivie. Thanks, Cedric. All right. We're going to transition to some rapid-fire questions now. Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to answer these questions as shortly and succinctly as you can. So Ivie, let's start with you, and then Cedric, we'll come to you. All right. So based on your experience, what are the top three characteristics for success? Integrity, humility, and responsiveness. What is the best piece of advice you ever received? Go to Wall Street. If you could tell your younger self one thing as you started your career, what would it be? To persevere, to just work hard, it will pay off. All right. Here's some more fun questions. What's your favorite time of year? Spring. Favorite book, movie, or song? Favorite book. For people on this call, I'm going to have a lot of favorite books, but I think this is a phenomenal book. It's called The Corner Office. And I don't know if you remember reading in the New York Times every Sunday on C2, there was a article about a CEO and a small company, large company, and it was the same interview, same questions. And after 10 years, the author, the journalist, created this book. And I think it's a wonderful book. It's geared really to college students and people starting out in their career. So I just love it for this particular audience. So what was the second question besides the book? It was just book, movie, or song. I'm a big Adele and Amy Winehouse. I'd also recommend reading Ivy's Gimme Shelter book. All right. Favorite word or phrase? Everyone will laugh, but my employees will just say, she always says, she doesn't give a rat's ass. I jokingly say that a lot. So anyway. Okay. And last but not least, what's your favorite real estate asset class? It has to be multifamily, right? Yeah, I would think so. All right. Thanks, Ivy. All right, Cedric, it's your turn. Are you ready? I'm ready. All right. Based on your experience, what are the top three characteristics for success? I think confidence, not being afraid to fail, and curiosity. What is the best piece of advice you've ever received? Don't be afraid to fail. Suck it up. If you could tell your younger self one thing as you started your career, what would it be? Find multifamily. Nice. All right. Here are the more fun questions. Favorite time of year? I like Christmas time because people stop working and it means I can outwork them. Nice. Favorite book, movie, or song? I like this book, To Sell is Human. I think you got to learn how to sell yourself and think about yourself with pride. Favorite word or phrase? Fail forward. Nice. And favorite real estate asset class? Oh, multifamily by far. All right. So we've got two multifamily. Great. That was fun. We've got a few more minutes left, about 12 minutes or so. I think we can open up the floor for questions now. If you all haven't already, please feel free to put your questions in the chat and we have time to answer a few of them. So let's take a look and see what we've got here. Let's see. Okay. So here's a question from Jordan Terry. How to have the courage to leave a company you've worked for for eight years? How do you change your career? So how do you make a career transition? Ivy, Cedric, who would like to take that one? Thinking. I don't know, Cedric, if you have a thought. I think when you have an interest in another opportunity, I think that it's really about doing your homework and talking to people where you are interested in working, learning as much as you can, and then being armed with information and that curiosity and ability to find someone that can help you along the way to learn enough that you sound smart when you're in an interview, that you are transitioning to a new opportunity, but you've done your homework and you're interested and you're passionate about what you're pursuing. I think, again, people will see that you've done the work and that they could give you that chance and just don't be afraid to go for it. Thanks, Ivy. Cedric, anything to add to that? No. I would just say just having a clear goal and really connecting the goal to what the new opportunity is. You want to make sure you're not running away from something that you're going to face again in a new opportunity. And so being able to put some folks around you that can really test you and push you, and then the moment you say you're still going to do it, then locking in and supporting you along the way. I tend to always, the moment I start a new opportunity, I kind of go dark. I go quiet. I keep a small circle. And I just lock in, focus on the goal, get in early, stay late, and just make sure that I'm putting in everything I can to create luck for myself. Great. We've got a question here about the name of the book. I think Cedric, no, I'm sorry, Ivy, I think it was The Corner Office by Adam Bryant. Was that the name of the book? Yes. Okay. So The Corner Office by Adam Bryant. Do you have any recommendations for law students interested in the industry? This person's been working for firms that focus in landlord, tenant, and focusing on representation of institutional investors. Any recommendations for the law side of the business? I don't have much expertise on the law side, I've got to be honest. Yeah, I would say, unfortunately, I'm in the same camp. Sorry, I can't be more helpful. Okay, great. Let's see. I think we might have answered this question. Ivy, where is the opportunity in multifamily today? In terms of the outlook for the cycle? They don't give much more insight into that question beyond that. So I think you can take it wherever you think is most appropriate to take that. Well, I think right now the industry is probably enjoying one of the best years it's had in decades. So it's a robust period, there's significant amount of development, many opportunities, they're hiring like crazy. So we can't get enough new recruits into the sector. So I think that it's a great time to look for opportunities. And it's going to be at least a few years of very strong activity. So I'd say it's good timing. Thanks. Cedric, we've got a question about Project Destined. Does it offer virtual certification programs for people who are not able to do the internship? And if so, what do they consist of? Yeah, so all of our work is not necessarily so focused on certification, but really grabbing you and understanding the fundamentals of real estate. So we've got lots of virtual courses that we run every single semester. We've got any learning course that you can find on our website. And then we're going to be announcing with you all sort of an early career, early talent program where we're now even supporting sophomores and getting exposure to the sector. Again, during the summer when not a lot of opportunities available to young people in industry, but that's the way we got to actually generate excitement. So you're going to see us offering lots of new programs to really get folks excited about the sector at whatever point they are, early career, mid-career, you name it. Great. Thanks. Cedric, we've got another question here, and this could actually be for both of you. Can you give some advice on how young people entering the industry can create concrete goals that they can work toward to be as successful as you have been? Yeah, I think the thing for me certainly was just getting reps and starting with yes. You know, whenever I met someone and I found that what they were doing might be interesting, I asked them how they got there, and if they told me there was an opportunity to do something, I started with yes, and then I would figure out how to, you know, make a living at it. But I think figuring out how to say yes to opportunities and then getting in reps early, so much of life is figuring out not just what you are excited about, but what you don't like doing. If you can figure it out early and then get pointed close to the right direction and then attack it with gusto, I think you can find a tremendous amount of success. Yeah, I actually found a lot of success in what I call doing information interviews, you know, finding people that are interesting in a career that I might be looking to pursue. So I think being goal-oriented really is difficult when you're not sure what you're interested in. So the more people you can talk to and learn about their career path and what they liked and what they didn't like, and you kind of think about crossing a few of those things off because you had a conversation and say, that's not for me. Knowing your skill set, what are you good at? Are you better at writing? Are you good at math? And where can I utilize those skills and what career? But it's really, it goes back to just being willing to ask a lot of questions and be inquisitive. And then you figure out your goals. So, and once you figure out, like for me, you know, my goal was that I wanted to be financially successful. And I was pointed to Wall Street because that's where you made a lot of money. And I know that sounds a little shallow, but that was what really drove me, was that I wanted financial independence, having, you know, worked hard to get myself through my education. So I think my goal was very definitive and easy to pursue, but not everyone has that goal. So you start breaking it down by talking to enough people in different careers that can help you determine what your goals are. And I think you don't have to have the perfect goal to start, but have a goal, attack that goal. And as you're down that path, you're going to figure out new things that pop up that may be, you know, what you do for the rest of your life. So I just think being goal oriented is more important than having the perfect goal to start, but just having something because I think it makes you a more interesting person, makes you a more confident person and obviously more humble. Great. Thanks, Mike, Lee, and Cedric. I think those were some great questions. I think that was a good question to end on, some great responses, some really great nuggets throughout this call. We appreciate that. We're going to pull up the slides now and close out the call. I hope everyone who's watching and listening is enjoying this discussion and walked away with some really helpful nuggets to kickstart your careers. We've got three other helpful nuggets to share. The first is that Walker & Dunlop plans to hire 200 people in the next year across several departments in multiple cities and at varying career levels. And we currently have 20 entry level positions open right now. We're putting a link to our current opportunities in the chat, but you can always find them by visiting walkerdunlop.com forward slash careers. Please feel free to explore them further and reach out with questions. We're also excited to announce that we've just committed to partnering with Project Bestend on the Early Talent Program, a 10-week commercial real estate training program for rising sophomores that includes one-on-one mentoring with W&D executives. So that's an opportunity to get exposure to the industry. We'll also be launching our first analyst training program in summer 2022, interviewing will begin in the spring. So more details are to come on that. So please be sure to follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to stay up to date on the latest W&D news, including career opportunities. Cedric, Ivy, thank you both again for sharing your time and insights with us today. We really appreciate it. I know I walked away with some nuggets even though I'm further along in my career. I hope everyone tuning in today did as well. Thanks to all of you, our attendees, for engaging with us. This concludes the Kickstarting a Career in Commercial Real Estate webcast. Have a great day, everyone.