Why Chess Masters Dominate High Stakes Poker | Dan Smith DSH #1030

Now you can pretty regularly just like get the answer, but it used to just be You're just guessing, you know, and like you think you have like a good strategy But maybe there's just like a counter strategy that you didn't consider, you know Wow Yeah, cuz your opponent probably knows the right strategy too. So they'll kind of throw you off, right? Yeah, no doubt Yeah, cuz they know that you know All right guys poker professional Dan Smith here today, thanks for coming on man, thanks for having me it's gonna be fun Absolutely six on the all-time money list climbing up. It's not the highest you've ever been My I've gotten as high as either third or fourth when Bryn Kenny won the big million-dollar tournament, um, I Got third in that tournament and if I had won I would have made number one. Oh, wow. So you were right there It was in the hunt. Yeah, damn, but like also that tournament was like It was so big that like really just catapults you up, you know, yeah Yeah, I noticed cuz I've looked at the list and pretty much 80% of the caches seem to be from like a few events Yeah, it's like a big cash out like a 10 million dollar payout, right? Something like that. Yeah Yeah, so I don't know if that's a good way of judging skill level. Oh, definitely not Cuz it just comes down to a few key tournaments, yeah If you have a few million dollar tournaments over your career Sample size is gonna be that relevant, right? What's something to talk about what's a better gauge to test skill level you think I mean if you included buy-ins in there like okay this person cash for 55 million and they were in for 35 mm plus 20 And also, I think just like the eye test of like seeing somebody play how are they handling situations? Like you talked to somebody about poker in some cases you could just tell right away to know what they're talking about Wow, you could tell just from talking to them a bit Or like if you see someone play a hand certain Mistakes are obvious enough that it's like pretty indicative that the person's not gonna be Like a star. Hmm. That makes sense. Yeah, it never shows the buy-ins That's a good point because they could have bought in a few times Yeah, they could have even lost money and you wouldn't know For sure. Yeah happens like the buy-ins are big like people. I probably played like Five ish million of buy-ins last year, you know Wow, maybe more. It's pretty wild. Yeah, I saw on your Twitter So last year you won 700 K and I think as of last month you tweeted you're down 700 K I don't know if it's um at the WSOP at the WSOP. Yeah A lot of and like also $250,000 entry fee I guess 700 K swing almost doesn't mean all that much, you know, like 250 K tournament But it's gonna swing a lot. Yeah, I guess it's all relative for someone like you playing high stakes That's 700 K's not that much. Yeah, and also First for the big tournaments plenty of professionals like take on investors or piece themselves out that sort of thing Is that something you do or do you fund your your entire bankroll yourself? I take investors for the big tournaments. I think if you're like with the tax implications as an American you Kind of have to otherwise having a losing year Like it would be such a big negative tax free roll right because you can only run off 6k, right? You could write off losses against winnings But only over the course of a year So if you lose a million one year you win a million the next year you're break-even, but you have the government 400. Holy crap I didn't know that. Yeah, it's rough. Wow So there's probably a lot of poker players that get wrecked because of that. They don't know that when they're starting out Yeah, sure. Is that something you got to learn along the way? I mean it was like a factor but Like it also like in the early parts of my career You're not playing for super high stakes back then, you know when you're playing smaller Like you you just kind of learn along the way right where your stakes early on like was it gradual? increase or were you kind of just One day you just decide to play really high stakes. Um, I started when I was like 13 years old. I Got a $25 transfer onto this poker site and I started buying like $5 games, you know So I started low and then Build my way up from there. Okay, so humble beginnings Wow 13 That is an early start. Um, I was a chess player when I was really young Yeah, I want to talk about that cuz I'm a chess player. Ooh, not as good as you I looked up your ELO You hit mm, right? Um, I got up to 2170 and 2200 is master Wow. That's always been a goal Still never quite got there. Do you want to potentially revisit that in the future? I think so. Yeah They say with chess. It's it's tougher as you older yeah, I Mean definitely that's the case There are also I think like things about getting tougher like you You also if you just work really hard at it, like okay a professional basketball player your skills are going down Let's say there's some guys playing really casually. You just still definitely be getting better into your 40s, you know Yeah, I feel the same about most things. I feel that yeah with all the advancements in health and technology You see LeBron playing at 40 now. Yeah, and like, okay, maybe he's starting to decline But like in a local league you can just definitely Keep getting better. Yeah hundred percent. Yeah, I've been at 1350 for for eight months. I've been stuck man Yeah, that's the thing with chess you just plateau and it's just like you stop getting it's frustrating It's so hard to get better chess once you're at a certain level. Yeah, like how long were you stuck at a 2000? maybe like a Two years Wow, and then I kind of hung it up you got sick of it. I mean just stop being fun for me um, I realized I was like playing because I was good at it not because I enjoyed it and I Saw that like for me to make like the next jump Like I maybe I could have been like a 2400 player in the US, you know, but like there's no future in that You know, I just saw it would have been a ton of work and I didn't think the path was there, right? Yeah, the money's off in chess. Really really tough. Like you're probably not making much at 2170 Basically zero I Think to support yourself you need to be like top 10 top 20 in the world Wow. So it's like tennis. Yeah Yeah, it's rough and that's the thing with poker. You don't have to be top 10 to make a living No, I mean if you're just better than the people you're playing against regularly, right? You'll win your fair share. So that's why you switch. Were you playing poker while you were playing chess simultaneously or did that? There was plenty of overlap. Yeah, there was plenty of overlap. Yeah interesting I see a lot of chess players now getting into poker. Have you seen that? Yes, I feel like there's always been like a good relationship between the two games like mutual respect. Hmm a Lot of similarities in the mindset you think Some and I also just think if you play one game competitively like you kind of get it, you know, yeah And also, I think a lot of chess players see people making money at poker and like want to give it a whirl Hmm. Yeah, I see that the luck factor is a rough thing to deal with though in poker, right? Yeah, cuz in chess, there's probably none. Yeah, the only luck I guess would be if your opponent is off or something I mean if two people are very similar in skill Who wins on a given day is gonna come down to like various factors, you know, so they're like is a luck factor like if you're You play ten games one is supposed to get five and a half out of ten Any given game and anything that happens like that is a variance or luck? Yeah, but like between two people Or difference in skill like the guy just never wins. Yeah hundred percent. You're not gonna lose some random guy in chess ever Have you been following the chests like the pros still yeah, I enjoy it. I enjoy it, too Who's your yeah, I was gonna ask you that I like you're not gonna like this answer. I like Hans Niemann. It's Entertaining and he does have a interesting style Um, I think he's just kind of like pretty mean a lot and he's got a chip on his shoulder because of what happened But I like the underdog story. That's why I like him and he's American Uh, I could I mean it's also it is interesting I've got a lot of people into it it did yeah Who's your guy Magnus? Magnus is just so unbelievably filthy, you know, like It's just like completely and I can't imagine it like I'll just have these positions where it just looks like it's completely even and it's like Why are you even like continuing to play this on and then he just grinds the guy down and he just does it over and over again and like Like I just can't understand how he's just that good. Yeah. Yeah, his endgame is insane so many positions will be tied and he'll come out on top somehow and Yeah, like I literally don't know how he does it. It's nuts and and he he drinks he does other stuff He's not just all about chess because a lot of these chess guys are just chess 24-7 Yeah, but he actually plays poker on the side. He drinks. That's fun I think he clearly like values living his life and he's like, oh, yeah, the world championship series isn't fun for me I'm off it. Yeah. Yeah, you backed out. I mean those classical games are brutal mentally Was that your format? Did you play a lot of classical if you play in serious tournaments? That's what it comes down to and I would do a lot of it I played a tournament a couple of years ago here in Vegas in December when I was kind of rusty and I just remember thinking How insane it is that like I was doing that at nine years old, you know I was just like this is not appropriate for children Wow, so you had really good mental fortitude at a very young age, which is impressive because kids these days are just bouncing off the walls, I Mean probably plenty are but also like there are a lot of kids these days who are just sick at chess, too That's true, too Yeah you got both ends you got the tick-tock brain but then you got People that have access to the information at such a young age because of social media and they're actually using it Yeah, so yeah, you got both ends of the stick and you see that with the Olympics we win every year But we're also one of the unhealthiest countries, but we got really good athletes on the other end of it. Yeah, it's interesting, right? It is really Interesting unusual times to be alive Where does the US rank in terms of poker professionals? Are we still the best country? I would be inclined to think so like it's a challenging thing to say but Yeah, I would say the US is probably the strongest if there's a lot of variants of poker to like Texas Hold'em You can play the mixed games, Omaha So I generally think about Texas Hold'em Same. Yeah, I was mainly asking about that because that's the biggest one. Yeah I would say the Americans are probably The best. Okay, so I see some big games out there in Asia There are some big games out there in Asia. Those aren't usually Open to everyone, you know, like the Triton games you're talking about. Um, try in the turn They have tournaments that are open to everyone and that's the format. I love about poker, you know, like 2 p.m Start everyone with the money could show up great. And then sometimes they have like cash games and those are like Invitation only they try to like make it such that the games aren't too tough. Yeah What do you think of this new era of these games being streamed on YouTube and social media I Think they are making some good content For me some of like Those really big poker games are more kind of like reality TV. They're like poker, you know Yeah, I personally don't care to watch like a bunch of people like just because like hey They have three hundred thousand dollars in front of them If none of them really know how to play or they're like they're intentionally playing bad for me I don't care to watch it. Mm-hmm, but like If it's reality TV for some people and like they enjoy it cool just for me personally Doesn't do it I could see that Yeah, I asked that because I've I've actually never seen you play in those so I wonder why you didn't like those live stream games I've played sometimes Generally, it's kind of political and I mean if you're running a poker game and you're having everyone buy-in for $200,000 and you could be playing against me who's very good or this other person who's drinking and not very good You're gonna make a lot more money with that other person in the table, right? So they don't yeah, you're a shark at that table Yeah, that's probably why they're not inviting you as much as you used to get invited I get to play in those sort of games like a couple of times a year And I enjoy it when I do yeah, that makes sense Yeah, cuz you're you're just a fan of the game. So you want to see high-quality poker being played? yeah, if you're gonna if I was gonna go the other route I would like I would just rather like full-on watch An episode of Jersey Shore. Yeah And that you know, I would say in a way it's good though overall because it's bringing a lot of new players Would you agree with that? I think poker is doing quite well, and I think the streams are a huge part of it I'm actually not super knowledgeable about like the modern content era, but it does seem like YouTube poker stuff is like huge. It's crushing it There's guys pulling up to the casinos in Vegas with cameras You probably played at some of these tables and they're filming every hand and some people get annoyed, but it is interesting yeah, I think there's like a way to do it that's like a Respectful and doesn't slow down the game and then also there are just some Security concerns like if a phone is like I like if You're playing really big money poker There are gonna be people who are trying to like con you and it's just like, okay Maybe like a new thing is like if a camera could like see the cards off the deck, you know Yeah, you never know People have sneaky ways of cheating these days, right? Yeah I mean, how's that happen to you where you were out of game and you felt like you got cheated or slighted? Um, I Don't think so, but it's something that you have to like be on Look out for well, that's impressive because you played a lot of poker and I felt like that was a more common issue In some I mean to some degrees that probably does happen if someone's gonna be doing it They're gonna be good at it. It might be hard to catch. Yeah but for the most part like the people that I play with I know and trust like I go to these Triton tournaments and I feel like really secure in the game security, right? Well, I saw saw one clip of you with a big Martin Cabrell Was that in the World Series? That was the WSOP 250k Yeah, and he was like staring at the back of the card and it was I mean, it wasn't just that It was that like I don't know if you saw this He was like doing this thing with like putting his nail into the car. Oh, really? That kind of blew up in a sloppy way I had some choice comments for him If I could go back in time I would just have said something more along the lines of like if you are doing something like this into the card Whether you're marking it or you're not that's against the rules and you don't get to play, you know Like you do you understand about card marking? No, I didn't know that was a rule actually So the reason that like cards work is when you see like the back of the cards, they're all look the same You know, yeah, if you put marks into some of them, you could be like, oh that has a fingernail in the corner God, maybe that is the Ace of Diamonds, you know, so he was like doing a thing that looked like it and People said he wasn't marking him after the fact, but it sure looks like it, you know, got it But aren't they only using the cards once in the World Series? No, they use those car especially on TV they use RFID cards. Yeah Which are more expensive They use the cards a bunch. Oh god And also like it's some venues that is a thing that come up like you're asking for like new decks Kind of regularly and they're like, ooh, each deck is like $20, but like sure but it's a quarter million dollar tournament Yeah, I saw some crazy stat where they use like so many cards at that tournament. Yeah, that's crazy Yeah, I think he's an interesting player. I feel like he does it on purpose. Just getting people's heads I think it is definitely trying to unsettle people. Yeah, I think that's part of his strategy because he's done it so many times So many different games. So at this point, it's not a coincidence. Oh, it's yeah. Yeah It's been a thing that's been happening for many years. Yeah, cuz when you are angry you play different right? They call it tilting Yeah, um some people People handle mission emotions differently differently But yeah you can be frustrated or Unsettled or like in the back of your mind if you're asking yourself like is this game on the up-and-up, right? You're questioning and then it's harder to play. Did you feel like he affected your play by doing that and you got angry? I think I was able to Maintain my composure and play really well. I Think I kept it together. Well, and like I was able to use I Think I was able to use those emotions to be like, I'm gonna really lock in like There are certain things when you play poker like, you know how there's a timer Yeah If you're being like really diligent like the best thing to do is probably to act at 28 seconds every time So you don't have any timing tells and in some situations like you're like, I already know what I'm gonna do I'm just gonna gonna act In okay, it's like, you know what? I don't like the way this Martin guy is acting every time I'm playing against him I'm gonna try to do everything perfectly, you know, I'm not gonna give him an inch Interesting. I think I was able to use it To lock in the game within the game Yeah I love poker cuz there there's another game of of it that people don't see or think about There are a lot of mind games and is even if things get like more technical and computery Playing the player and just like I'm here you're there this guy just bet all of his money. Does he have it or not? Mmm, that's still a huge part of the game Interesting when the computer started becoming everywhere. Is that something you embraced right away or did it take some time? I Was a little resistant to it and kind of ironically It was kind of what part of what led me away from chess many years ago when he started having to use the computer It just became less fun more technical. Yeah, and then I I saw that happening happening with poker Deja vu, right? It makes sense. Yeah Yeah with chess. It was a big deal, right? It kind of ruined the fun for a lot of people yeah, I'm it requires a lot that gets a different kind of work and like You could be very very well prepared now, which is a huge advantage, right? Yeah, cuz I watched the old chess games on YouTube like Bobby Fisher and Andrew Tate's dad and they were all over the place It was really fun to watch but because they didn't have these engines telling them this was the best move You know, it's just a complete game changer and that's how poker was back in the day, too, right? Yeah, like you used to be figuring stuff out coming up with some of your own strategies Now you could pretty regularly just like get the answer, but it used to just be You're just guessing, you know, and like you think you have like a good strategy But maybe there's just like a counter strategy that you didn't consider, you know, Wow Yeah, cuz your opponent probably knows the right strategy too. So they'll kind of throw you off, right? Yeah, no doubt Yeah, cuz they know that you know That's so funny man. Yeah, cuz everyone in the high high stakes has the computers pretty much they're using them, right? I would say basically all of like the if you're a very serious player You're studying with it to some degree and that's why even some of the amateurs to really Wow That's why I was surprised when Bryn Kenning came on He said he doesn't use it at all and he's still getting pretty good results Bryn's one-of-a-kind right, but that's not a common thing It is a very much not a common thing. Yeah. Yeah and Helmuth is another one too But he's not playing the high stakes events. He doesn't really yeah he does I would say like the biggest tournaments are where like The most serious competition goes down and he hasn't ever really been one to participate in those What's the biggest buy-in you've played in? I have played in Either three or four one million dollar tournament. Holy crap I've had and I've happened to have great results there Three times in a row. I got third place. Damn. It's impressive man. Well done It is impressive also super fortunate, but yeah, it's a fun streak What percentage of that was lucky thing because you say fortunate? On any given day if you play a tournament like say there's 50 players if you're the best player in the field, maybe you'll win like one out of 35 times. Oh, that's it Most of the time you just don't win, you know So 3% chance if you're the best player in the field to win a 50-person tournament, yeah and like that's crazy So anytime you win it is just hugely fortunate like luck in is like the biggest factor But like you can give yourself better chances to get lucky, right? Because there's a lot of players that will make the final table So that to me is a lot of skill right because if you're constantly making the final table, that's not just luck Over a big enough sample size like I've started playing the very big tournaments in 2012 The fact that I'm still around doing it is like okay now like the results are starting right to be indicative but even like You can just have a great year and maybe not be that skilled of a player, you know Yeah, if you just play against people worse than you right or no You play against good people and you just happen to get lucky, you know Like you could be an underdog in a tournament and still win Yeah, you've probably seen that all the time. Does that annoy you when you see someone worse than you winning? Um No, I mean, it's just kind of It's why you get to play poker for for big money compared to like chess, you know, right? So you just got to embrace it. Yeah at the end of the day will never be all skill there's gonna be luck involved and that's why it's a great game to gamble on relative to Say like chess or tennis, you know when you just if you just know one side's gonna win you're not gonna play for money, right? That's true. That's really cool. Are you playing anything online or you all in person? Um, I play very small amounts online actually messed around last night on WSOP calm and I got second in the $500 mystery bounty event. Oh nice. Yeah So I missed around in those events a little bit But other than that, I don't play much online. Yeah, that's a small buy-in for you 500. It was mostly like yeah It's a little something to do, you know But yeah, it's on the small side I've a little bit is I'm going to try in Monte Monte Carlo in like 10 days hmm, and I did wanna just get some reps and see some cards like get the rust off and Mostly just like it's a fun thing to do right you say Ross. So you haven't been playing for a little bit the WSOP I Played through like early July and then it was a couple months playing very little a few and then There were some tournaments at the aria a couple weeks ago got it Generally, it's like I'll have like two weeks like when I go to try in I'll play every day And then you get like a few weeks or a month off. Got it. Yeah, cuz you probably get burnt out, right? Yeah, and also if you're playing like these tournaments like I try and basically every day or if you win the tournaments a million dollars You come back to Vegas and like maybe the tournament that'll be going on. I'll be like a 1k or like it doesn't really like Excite you in. Yeah. Why do you think all the big tournaments are overseas not in the US? Some of it is about like laws about getting the money in there and also just like The companies that run it are like Triton Based in Asia, you know, yeah, that makes sense. I never even thought about the laws. But yeah, that's that's a lot of money so anti-mongering anti laundering right and if you have like a million dollar tournament in London you have to go through like the London bangs like it it's much it's more of a hassle than if like you say You're in Monte Carlo or the rules are a lot like smoother, right? Yeah, imagine wiring the money and they put it on hold and you're freaking out. Yeah Damn there. Yeah the money laundering thing. There was a casino like a week ago might have been resorts world or something But they just got a huge fine Because they were allowing people to gamble like high limits. Yeah, it seems to be half have been happening a lot over the years Yeah, that makes sense because they're who knows where they got that money, but yeah, it's a whole nother podcast I want to talk about the the health side of things you bought a $10,000 cold plunge Yes That's awesome. What brand was that? Um, I got the Plunge one plunge one plunge calm. Yeah, I've been looking into that one. I would not get that one really If you spend that kind of money on a cold plunge like the support aspect should be really good And when I've had issues that it's just been a complete disaster Wow Now that it's working a bit better. I'm like happy with it But if I can go back in time, I would have gotten a different product interesting yeah, some of them are really expensive and I don't know what the the main difference is I think like they're pretty similar and Like I also think like you could probably get like a great one for like 5k instead of like going up to like the 13k one But generally as a thing like I Absolutely love them just maybe not the one not the one I have but yeah, that's probably what I'll do I just got a 5k infrared sauna. So I want to do some hot-cold therapy. It's the best. Yeah I wait. I also have a sauna and it's just like Basically every night before I go to bed and it makes me feel wonderful. Yeah, are you big into the biohacking health stuff? Um, I Try to take good care of myself Some of like I'm not like super crazy about it, but I try to be Very active. I try to generally eat reasonably, you know, and Like the things that I enjoy doing I just I do them every day I feel like any little edge at your level is it's worth it Totally and also just walking around feeling good. Yeah, it's great. Yeah the diet I mean, there's probably players that you like don't even realize it's affecting the way they think when they're playing poker Yeah It could really get to your brain Yeah, I feel that like you see Negreanu who's vegetarian. It's interesting Yeah and I think there's a lot of different ways to eat in a way that you like you'll feel good and But I think just knowing your body and what works for you, you know Yeah, some people eat carbs and like get sleepy and other people I think can function well on it. Absolutely. I cannot Honestly, I can't either I have the gene break for have you done a gene test I haven't look into those It's really important information. I'll give it a whirl. Yeah, shout out to Gary Brekker that that changed my life I found out I had this it's called the bean but Yeah, MTH FR basically half the population has this and they don't even know you can't eat pretty much all bread in the u.s Hmm or grains Which is a lot of different food in the US Yeah, it's not something I'm super informed about but like I'd believe it yeah All right. This was a interesting take you had I'm big on food and I saw you post your favorite restaurants in Vegas You you posted ramen boys is the best ramen in big in Vegas. Yeah, but not just Vegas in the u.s You said that I've had I absolutely loved it I've been to Japan like five times. So and like ramen was the thing that really stood out Have you had ramen boys I haven't it's unbelievable really? Yeah. Okay. I'll go there tonight I'll text you how I like it. I appreciate that And then your best pizza spot. I've never even heard of this spot double zero pizza. Yeah Growing up in New Jersey, I like pizza East Coast thing And the stereotype is it's hard to get good pizza on the West Coast But I think that place is real good interesting and like fun vibes to okay. Where is that? What spot is that also Chinatown? I want to say it's on Spring Mountain. Okay. I love Chinatown. Yeah I'm there at least once a week. I feel like that's like the best food in Vegas for sure. I agree Yeah, I slept on cuz the strip you're paying triple the price for the same. Yeah Some Vegas people are like totally anti strip I think it's worth doing sometimes, you know, like, okay, you're paying up for a bit but like also Some of the stuff is just cool good vibes. I agree. Yeah, I'll go there for an experience No, and knowing I'm gonna pay double or triple but it's it's fun night out with friends Yeah, I feel that a lot of locals don't even go to the strip. I've heard that a lot Yeah, but it's kind of like whatever like if I want to go to the sphere and spend 200 bucks on dinner Have a fun night. Let's do it It's a special thing that you get to do sometimes Have you seen any shows at the sphere not yet? Have you um, I saw the Eagles this weekend. Um as a Musical venue it the spheres just unbelievable and like it was a great show that they're older but like they still play Yeah, I noticed all their musical acts are the older bands So I can't really relate Yeah, I think at some point they're gonna get like more modern Bands that and it'll be something that's cool, but I would recommend seeing something there. Yeah, I might see that nature show there I wanted to see the UFC, but it was sick. You went to that too. Yeah. Wow. I saw the videos. It looked nuts. I Was very skeptical like I thought it wasn't gonna look good and then I get there and was like, oh this is spectacular Wow, yeah, do you go to a lot of shows in Vegas? Um Whenever there's someone that I'm excited about seeing I love seeing live music When there's someone I'm excited about I'll make a point to do it. That's one of the best parts about Vegas for sure Every week there's something. Yeah, something major now. We're getting NBA. Apparently MLB. I'm excited about my real estate out here Vegas has been doing some cool stuff for the last several years. Yeah, you've been here a while I moved out here when I was 20 and Then I keep leaving and coming back crazy you ever think about retiring poker I definitely Have given it some thought At this point I still really enjoy competing in the big tournaments Like I'm going to Monaco for two weeks. I can't think of something that I would be doing that would be More enjoyable Wow, or maybe not like enjoyment like it's hard competition but I think it's like a great part of my life and I enjoy it and uh, I Would need a compelling reason to give it up, you know, that's cool. That's really cool. Yeah, it sounds like you're you're fulfilled I really it's yeah, it's just uh, I Play there are some of the guys who play in these tournaments. They're billionaires with all the resources in the world They can do whatever they want for enjoyment They're playing these tournaments, you know, mmm, like I think it's a compelling case that like It's fun and exciting. Yeah poker is great brings people together, right? Yeah sit at a table meet new friends How do you treat the the friendship first competition aspect of it? Do you find yourself playing differently against your friends? Definitely not. Oh, you're not you once you're there you have to be like locked in like a few People are good enough that if you're not playing Your best you'll get run over They're no friends at the poker table. Yeah, you're Michael Jordan out here. I love it. I love that dude because a lot of Sports these days. Well, I see this about basketball, especially They're all friends with each other like they played travel growing up and everything. So it's like a different game. It's not as physical, you know hmm, I Yeah, I suppose if you've like grown up with somebody maybe you'll be a little less inclined to like throw an elbow Yeah, but you got that switch that you could kind of turn off that friendship it's I think it's just a matter of like you got a Each hand you kind of have to play your cards the way they need to be played, you know, yeah Regardless of who you're playing against any rivalries you have people that you have gone up against a lot. Um, It's probably like Cabrera was like the most heated one over the years But other than like, I mean there's been plenty of people that I've been competing with Like like I was saying I started playing the big tournaments in 2012 There are some people that like you've been playing But I've been competing with at that level basically since you know But what percentage of those guys are still around that you played with in 2012 you think? Maybe like 10% that's it Wow People generally only are at the top for a few years and it's not like in some cases It's like okay people do retire either They're not winning anymore or it's like okay time to have a family or like move on to something else. Mm-hmm Wow, 10% that's a lot lower than I thought it'd be Just an off-the-cuff maybe but like of people who are playing all of the big tournaments back then I would guess that there are like Well around 10 who still compete at the highest level, you know, wow Yeah, you don't see the guys we used to watch on TV. You don't see many of them around I was talking to Negreanu about this when he came on. There's not many Yeah, and like the people that grew up on TV. I would say like they were even like a couple generations ago, you know, right? Like the Mike Mattesau types, I don't even know that it's okay. I might have been too young for that one Like classic I did you like watch WSOP on it like the moneymaker stuff that was I was like in middle school But yeah, I caught like that was the first time I saw poker moneymaker. Yeah, that's why I saw that on TV I got into it, too. Yeah He was a big name at that time, you know, right? He's still playing actually saw him in the World Series moneymaker. Yeah Yeah, he had a pretty good year early there like last year of the year before yeah, that was impressive Moneymaker man, so that's why you got into poker. That's crazy. See it on TV. You were 13. You said right? Yeah Chess I was like Kind of struggling with I was plateauing. I couldn't make the master title and I Saw poker on TV and it's just like they are playing so much less seriously, you know Yeah, like even like a low-level chess tournament people are locked trying their hardest. Yeah, I'm like, yeah They're playing for a huge prize and like no one's even trying. Yeah, it's weird. I love that Yeah, I only play five-minute chess cuz I just I don't have the patience for classical man there's a big thing in between like like at five minutes, I would say like By the end of the game You're always just super rushing, you know And I think it is nice to sometimes play games where like you can actually play out the end Yeah, but on the other then and then you're spending 30 minutes on a game of chess rather than 10, right? Yeah, five to ten is that's it's a huge jump. It is. Yeah, you don't have time in five minutes to think some people play One minute. Yeah, I Dabble with it. Oh, yeah, what's your rating in one minute? 2,400. Holy crap. Oh, so you are a master in one minute online ratings are inflated like the master title IV for like only over the board and Like the online to over the board ratings, yeah, there's like a Conversion thing there, you know, what causes that? More players, I think so. There's probably some inflation and just different rating systems Like I don't exactly know the math behind it. Got it but like I know the highest players in online chess are over 3,000 compared to like Feed a the number one rating is like 2850 So it's generally like you at you subtract generally subtract a couple hundred points From your online rating to get your in-person rating. Yeah, that's humbling for me because I'm telling everyone how much 1350 But I'm probably like an 1150 1200 hard to say like I just Maybe no, but you're right because I've seen it all the time When I played in Tom's Times Square in New York, I got wrecked Those guys are tough. Those guys are good. Have you ever played out there? Yeah, I would generally play at Washington Square Park. Nice But yeah, it's kind of like a New York tradition. Yeah, I knew I was screwed when he didn't even tell me his rating He wouldn't tell me I was a guy this guy's really good. Yeah Yeah, no, that's that's a bucket list item to play out there. It was a fun time Absolutely, I love going to New York. Yeah, shout out to New York growing up in Jersey. I actually didn't like it growing up I didn't have money to enjoy it Now being able to spend some money makes a huge difference. Awesome. Yeah Well, man, what's next for you? And I know you got some tournaments coming up. What else? So I run this charity called double up drive We are in the processes of starting our big annual drive. Um, I believe it's our 10th year We've raised 27 million dollars for good causes Our drive is going to go live this year, I believe December 3rd so we're in the phase of like Pulling money together getting like the back-end stuff ready to go is in Vegas It's mostly Online the general premises if I pick out 10 or rather we pick out 10 organizations If you say wanted to support Mental health you can pick out the strong minds charity any money that you donate Our team will double your 100 becomes 200 So it's both like an efficient way to get involved and you could trust that we've done a good job like the vetting process So like all of the organizations involved are reputable and doing good things with the money I love that. I'll link it below and I'll donate some money to thank you. I appreciate that. Sure. Thanks. Come on down That was fine. It was wonderful. Yep. Thanks for watching guys. Check out the link below. See you next time