The Power of Real Romance in Marriage

Hey everybody, welcome back to another fantastic edition of the his and her money show where we make it our business to help you take dominion over your money and your life. Thank you for tuning in to this episode because you could be listening and watching in a whole lot of other places. But the fact that you are here with us, we want you to know that we are grateful. Do us a favor. If you hear anything that is life changing and hint, hint, you definitely will make sure that you share this episode with your friends and your family and let them know that this is something that they need to tune into and tag us at his and her money, no matter what platform you are on excited about today's episode, because I am a personal fan of both of today's guests. I have been a recipient of their ministry for a couple of decades. Personally, they've been doing the work for about three decades, and now they have a brand new book that they are getting ready to unleash to the world to help us folks that are married and trying to navigate, trying to do things God's way within the confines of our marriage. I'm talking about none other than Pastor Mark and Grace Driscoll, and they have a brand new book called Real Romance, and they are looking into the word of God to help us navigate this very topic. I am excited to learn more about what they have found and what they are encouraging us to walk out in our relationship. Let me go get Pastor Mark and Grace, and let's get into this important conversation. Hey, Pastor Mark. Hey, Grace. Welcome to the His and Her Money Show. Good to be with you, buddy. Thanks for having us. We're so glad that you all made some time to come and hang with us. As I mentioned during the intro, my wife and I, we've been watching you guys' ministry for, I lost count, a couple of decades at least, and so it's an honor to have you both here with us on today's show, but there may be some people who are being introduced to you all for the very first time right here and right now, so for them, could you just kind of say hello and then kind of let them know what you all are all about? Yeah. You want to go first, baby? All right. So we met at 17 in high school. I became a Christian reading the Bible that Grace gave me. We got married in college at 21, and now we've been faithfully married 30 years. We've got five kids. Two are married. One's in a premarital class, so we're kind of in the launch years, and yeah, we've been doing ministry, gosh, I think it's year 27 as a senior pastor, 30 years of ministry, and you mentioned the book. It's the Real Romance book. It's Sex and the Song of Songs published through our friends at XL Marriage, which one of our pastors, Jimmy Evans, so yeah, we've been married a while and just trying to help. So a lot of things the wrong way, so. Oh, I bet we're about to learn through all of it. I'm excited to hear the trials and tribulations and the triumphs that came from you guys' incredible 30-year marriage thus far, and the title is Real Romance, which leads me to think the way my brain works, there's probably a fake romance that's out there, so when you all sat down and you all decided that this was the direction, you all have written several books, and you decided to go in this direction, what was in your hearts and minds? What did you want for us, the recipient of this book? Some years ago, I taught through the Song of Songs, it's, you know, everybody's like, it's good to preach through books of the Bible, and then there's one, they're like, oh, I'm not sure what to do with that one, it's a little too spicy, and so, you know, even Bible teachers tend to skip Song of Songs, and I taught it many years ago, it was the most popular sermon series I've ever had, and we just decided it was probably time to turn that into a readable, devotional, practical book, and it's a case study in a husband and a wife, and it's just snapshots of their marriage, so it's the only book in the Bible that's exclusively about marriage, and it's very, no kids are mentioned, it's just about marriage and sex, and sometimes they fight, and they figure stuff out, so it's a genuine look at a real, honest relationship, that's why we call it Real Romance, not perfect, not religious, not fake, just deal with the real issues, and maybe you can share from a woman's perspective, kind of what you were hoping it might do to help marriages and wives. Yeah, the gal in the story, in the real story in Song of Songs, we call her Abby in the book, Abishag is who we think she probably was, and she is very honest, she speaks a lot, she's very verbal, she's very encouraging of Solomon, she is very free, and so we want to learn from her what that looks like in marriage, how to build that in marriage, and so we take kind of that process in the book to teach women how to live in freedom, how to be verbal, how to be an encourager, how to be real, and also they have a fight in here, there's just real circumstances that happen in their relationship, and so we talk about our own marriage, and the things that we've done right and wrong, and hopefully will help other people do the same. Incredible, now you guys have been in ministry and marriage for around 30 years or so, so not only have you all been working and striving to make your marriage all that God wants it to be, but you've helped other people along the way as well, through counseling, through pastoring and shepherding others, where do you see us kind of dropping the ball when it comes to romance in the confines of marriage, especially those that consider themselves to be believers of Jesus Christ? Yeah, I think in the world, everybody's talking about sex, everybody's looking at sex, in the church, nobody's talking about sex, and nobody's teaching about sex, and so you're really left with, you know, really bad information or no information, so our thought is that the church, Christians, especially Bible-believing and Bible-teaching people, need to enter into the conversation, because God has a lot to say, God created us male and female, He created our bodies for pleasure, He created marriage as the heart to hold the flames and the passions of marriage and sex, and so when we, you know, obey God's design, things go really well, when we deviate from that, we hurt ourselves, we hurt our marriage, and our culture doesn't know what marriage is, it doesn't know what a man is, it doesn't know what a woman is, it doesn't know what love is, it doesn't know what sex is for, it doesn't know who Jesus is, so, you know, most people, everything they've been told is probably not helpful in any regard, and they need, you know, they need to start with a renewing of the mind, what does God have to say about these things, and so, for us, we believe if you don't do it God's way, you hurt yourself, you create a lot of pain, and we love people, and we want to spare them that pain, so we want to help them learn what God's way is for sex and marriage and gender and all those issues. As you all dove deep, because every time that you all teach through the Bible, you guys do deep dive studying ahead of time, and being that you have such a long history of studying the scriptures, as you were unpacking the Song of Songs and preparing yourself to write this book, were there some new things that you found that you hadn't seen in the scripture before that helped you all in the constructing of your marriage and strengthening your marriage that you would want to share with us today? I mean, I think that we've realized for a long time that we came into marriage viewing sex very differently because of our backgrounds. I was raised as a pastor's daughter, and it was really not talked about, and there was a lot of shame around it, and then I had my story of trauma in high school before I met Mark, and so I came into it with a really fearful definition, and he came into it more with a definition that was, it was all around him all the time, growing up in a neighborhood with strip clubs and lots of really abusive forms of it, and so for us, we really got to talk again as we went through the book and the study of Song of Songs, how to continue, like he said, renew our minds and see it God's way. How did God design it first and foremost? What did God intend for it? He wanted pleasure. It's a form of procreation, but there's so much more to it than that, and so writing this gave us an opportunity to evaluate where we were at, how we could get healthier in this area as well, and it's just always amazing to me how God really does speak into every area of our life if we allow him to, and this doesn't have to be a silent area. It doesn't have to be a suffering area in marriage. It can be a beautiful area because God created it to be beautiful, and so it was just a nice reminder for us, and it allowed us to have some good, healthy conversations that we may not have normally had. Yeah, we talk in the book, there's kind of three different views of sex—gross, God, or gift. If you've had bad religious teaching or you have some unhealed trauma, it's gross. If you have an addiction, an unhealthy obsession, it becomes like a God, and it's supposed to be a gift from God that builds the marriage, and so what Grace is referring to for her, she was more sex is gross, and for me as a non-Christian growing up, it was more sex is God, and that created a lot of pain and difficulty early in our marriage, and she thought there was something wrong with me, and I thought there was something wrong with her, and we were both right. So we both had to come to that. Yeah, we had to heal and come to the conclusion it's a gift from God, and we talk about the six reasons that God gave sex for marriage according to the Yeah, for us too, when we were studying the Song of Songs, the thing that really continually jumped out to us is in chapter 5, verse 16, the second half of the verse. She has this beautiful definition of marriage, my lover and my friend, and so I guess it's the original Hebrew friends with benefits, but they were friends and they're lovers, and so for us, we think that's a beautiful definition of marriage. You're friends, you enjoy life together, you do life together, you're lovers, you have an intimacy that no one else knows, and so for us, friendship outside of the bedroom is really what sets up the freedom in the bedroom. And that brings me to another point you made in the book, especially for the men that are listening. You talked about how we act outside of the bedroom is what leads to the feeling that we seem to be seeking after from our spouse inside the bedroom. Can you kind of unpack some things for the men that are listening? What do you mean by that? What are some things that we need to be focused on or tightening up when you say we need to take a good look at what we're doing outside the bedroom? Well, that's more of a female perspective, which I don't understand, so I'll let Grace answer that. Well, we talk about non-sexual touch, which is what happens outside of the bedroom. A wife's biggest need is for security, so you guys talk a lot about the financial security and building security in life, and that's awesome to get that wisdom. We also need emotional, spiritual security, physical, sexual security. As a woman, we need to know that outside of the bedroom, so that when we get into the bedroom, we're actually feeling free and safe in those areas. When men are willing to serve their wives in ways that she needs and not just ways that he thinks, when they're willing to talk and have conversations and be emotionally present for their wife, when they're willing to just touch without having it always lead to sex, that's not a bad thing either, but being available in that way to really give and serve to his wife, that builds a security in the relationship that then leads to the sexual freedom that men and women both want and need, but they don't always know how to get there. Yeah, and as a man, it just changes through. I mean, once you're married for a while, you've got to continually be asking your wife, what do you need? How can I be a good friend in this season? Because when you're newly married, that's different than when you've got little kids, and when the kids come, your wife, she needs some things that she didn't need when the kids weren't there, and we're in the launch years now. We've got two married and two in college, and we're down to one kid at home in high school, so it's a different season again. They talk about in Song of Songs chapter two, they talk about seasons, and marriage has seasons, and sometimes you can be doing great in one season, and then the season changes, and you've got to reset your time together, your schedule, your budget, how you serve each other, emotionally, how you're present for one another, so that you can maintain that intimacy from season to season, and so, yeah, we've gone from five little kids to one at home who's six foot tall with a voice deeper than mine driving himself around, so, you know, it's just a different season. You got to keep dating each other. It's super... I always say, if you don't date your spouse, someone else will, so don't delegate that responsibility. Man, that's almost a mic drop right there, Pastor. If you don't date your wife, somebody else will. Man, I hope you wrote that down, audience member. This is why I'm hearing you all's story, because I've been listening and watching you all for so long. I remember when your boys were in, like, travel baseball, and stuff like that. Now you're talking about folks are married, and, okay, let me get back. Let me get refocused here. I'm feeling old, all right? Now, listen, you talked about three categories that we typically put this topic in. Gross, God, lowercase g, and gift. How do we assess? Because when I read that in your book, I was like, huh, that's interesting. How do we assess? How do we figure out where we might be? Because we could be in two categories that are detrimental and may not know it, because sometimes you're dysfunctional so long that dysfunction feels like function. How do we properly assess or realize which one of these categories we may be currently holding it in, and how do we move it over and realize it for the gift that it actually is? Well, on the God side, if you've got a pornography addiction, or if you're pushing, pressing things into the marriage that are against the conscience of your spouse, or you're lusting, you know, you're constantly attracted to other people, fantasizing about other people, maybe sliding into your DMs, you know, jumping around on social media, following people you shouldn't, you're like, that's not healthy behavior. If sex, you know, I always say for sex is gross, it's oftentimes really bad teaching in the church. So my joke is always, you know, we tell kids growing up, sex is dirty, nasty, violent, wrong, so save it for the one you love. You know, it's a very confusing message, you know, and, and sex is great, but it's just for marriage. And so sometimes if you grew up in a religious environment, or if there's unhealed trauma, you just, you avoid it, you don't want to talk about it, you're afraid of it, you're gonna have sex as little as possible. And part of that is, you know, is the husband or the wife feeling rejected or neglected, then you've got maybe at least one has sex as gross. And so for me, I think if you can have a healthy marriage as a Christian couple, you're not going to be committing adultery, if you're not going to be, you know, addicted to pornography, you're probably going to have sex more than the average couple. And it means that all your desires are going to go into your marriage. And so, you know, it's really weird in the church, because you can get in trouble for having sex outside of marriage, but nobody ever gets in trouble for not having sex in their marriage. I mean, we've known pastors, even some well known minister of Israel, name drop, but decades where they've not had sexual intercourse with their spouse. And it's like, that's not healthy. It's not make you don't get fired for that you get fired for going too far. But there's also something that's not healthy if you're not having a healthy marriage. Yeah, that sounds like a recipe for disaster. And I don't know, it might be an ouch moment for somebody listening right now. As you were describing different categories and different signs that you may be viewing this in appropriately or incorrectly, it may be like an ouch moment. They're like, Okay, how do I get out of this? I'm clearly not viewing this right. Maybe there's some trauma. Maybe I've let some things in my heart that shouldn't be. Maybe I've been taught some erroneous things that I shouldn't have been taught. How do I progress and move forward biblically and properly so that I can have this experience this real romance in my marriage? Yeah, I think for me, coming from the sex is gross category, I grew up really naive about sex and what it was it wasn't talked about. And then with trauma in high school, it became a really horrible thing for me because there was abuse. And, and so for me, I really had to in order to renew my mind, I had to work through with a professional counselor to deal with my trauma, a Christian trauma specialist, trauma informed counselor to be able to walk me through the healing process of that and redirect me to the thought that sex even was a gift. It wasn't a have to, it was a get to, it was a gift from the Lord to enjoy. And it took some time for me to get there. And Mark needed to support that process and, and be just really, I needed to be able to be vulnerable with him, he needed to be safe for me emotionally. And, and just really, it takes a lot of renewing our minds with the scripture of what God says about it, of people speaking truth to you, a lot of prayer to renew my mind. And then just practicing what it looked like to have healthy sexual identity with each other. And it just, it can take time, God can do it overnight, but it can take time to really heal from those things. So for me, that was a process and Mark was patient in that process with me. Sometimes we need professional help. Sometimes it's a matter of praying through and canceling those thoughts that the enemy has put in our minds and that we've allowed to sit there as lies and canceling those and asking the Lord to renew that for us and the Holy Spirit to intercede for us. Yeah. And for me, um, we were sexually active before we were married. I was not a Christian. I was Jack Catholic kid. So if you asked me as a Christian, I'd say sure, but I didn't know Jesus. I didn't really know what that meant. And so then when I became a Christian and I'm reading the Bible, I'm like, ah, we're, you know, we're sinning, we're wrong. So I had to go back and apologize and to grace for that, like as the leader in the relationship, I wasn't obeying the Bible. I wasn't walking with Jesus. So I got us off going the wrong direction. And so, um, we, like I said, we'd been married, faithfully married 30 years and part of what was really helpful. And I guess that's why one of the major reasons we wrote the book, we would get into disagreements. And then once we got into a book of the Bible, it's like, okay, let's just go through this whole book of the Bible that's about marriage and sex within marriage. And let's just see if we can't come to the same conclusions, have the same mindset, and at least start there. Because usually what happens is a couple is fighting over, I want to do this. Well, I don't want to do that. Well, I want to be this frequent, or I don't want to be that frequent. It's like, well, let's, let's pull back because the most powerful sex organ is, you know, between your ears and how you think about things determines, you know, how you behave about things. And so really it was studying the word of God kind of renewed both of our minds. And Grace was like, wow, this gal, Abby, in the Song of Songs, like she's frank, she's free, she's passionate. She knows exactly what she likes. It's a 3,000-year-old book. They're talking about oral sex and striptease. And, you know, you're like, what the heck? I mean, I didn't, you know, didn't know the Hebrews did those things, you know, back in the olden days. And then I'm reading it and I'm like, you know, I'm convicted because it's like, well, he's safe, he's secure, he, he honors her, he compliments her, he encourages her. Those are things that I'm not that great at. And so literally, as weird as it sounds, like one book of the Bible is the book that God intended to tune up your marriage. And so for us, it really did start there because we do, we do, we're Bible people. We believe in the word of God. We love the word of God. And, and it was a book of the Bible that neither of us really knew anything about. I don't think you know, they didn't make it into a veggie tale. You know, somehow we never got to that book. Now, you said that one of the foundational things that we have to understand as we move into this journey to, to get to a place of real romance in our marriage is a proper understanding of what a marriage overall should be and the difference between viewing it as contractual versus covenantal. Can you break down the difference between the two to help us figure out where we land and where we need to be in this viewpoint? Hey, thanks for actually looking at the book. Usually the way you do an interview, they're, they're like, they obviously never read the book and they're like, yeah, when you were talking about the offensive line, you're like, well, that's not what the book's about. So, you know, but you can take that one, babe. We, we struggle with this early on for sure. Yeah. I think, you know, most men go to work and they have a contractual relationship where they're paid to perform and do what they're asked to do, or they are fired or they quit. Um, they have to withhold that contractual relationship. But when you come home, a contractual relationship doesn't work with your spouse because they're not, they shouldn't feel like they're paid to do what they need to do. Well, it shouldn't feel like every day is a performance review. And, uh, and, and one of the, one of the dumbest things I've ever said to Grace, and there's, there's many candidates, but there was one day we were arguing and I looked at her and I said, I said, if you were my employee, I would have fired you a long time ago. And just seeing how, yeah, it was not foreplay. It didn't, didn't go the direction I was hoping. I said, that's the problem. And he was like, oh, oh, okay. I guess that is a problem. So yeah, seeing our spouse that way is not helpful. Um, it's a, we're both serving each other and loving each other and have a friendship. That should be the foundation. Covenant, God has a covenant with us. He says, I'll never leave us or forsake us. And in our marriages, we need to have the same attitude that it's whatever happens, we're going to be together. We're going to work through it. We're going to love the Lord through it. He's going to stay as our head. God is going to stay as the head. And we're going to, I'm going to be the helper. You're going to be, you know, like Christ loved the church to me. And we're going to do that as much as God is able to empower us to do that as long as we're married. And so that's, that's the mindset of covenant versus the contract where it's, it's just temporary. Um, and unfortunately our culture has bought into that and, and leaves when marriage gets troubled. Well, in the contractual, I mean, that's where you get a cohabitation. Um, it's couples that are saying we're actually not going to do a healthy relationship. We're going to negotiate the deal terms. You pay these bills. I pay these bills, you know, and at any point, yeah, you do these chores. I do these chores. It's like job descriptions and performance reviews. And if at any point I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth, I'm leaving. And it's almost, you're treating your, you know, your significant other like you would your landscaper or your mechanic. You know, if I can get a better deal somewhere else, then I'm going to walk away from this relationship. And this happens all the time. I mean, people will, I mean, you know, I'm now 52 years of age and our kids are launching. And probably the grossest version is a guy who says, you know, I can, I can get more for my money. So I'm going to trade my 52 year old wife in for two 26 year olds and get a better return on investment. It's all that broken mindset in our culture. And it really is exacerbated, um, by a lack of understanding of marriage and by pornography. And so for us, this is why certain people, especially men, they will win at work and lose at home. And they bring that and they can't understand because they do well in sports. They do well in business. They did well in the military. And they're like, why is my marriage cratering? Why do my children not like me? Well, because a contract is for a professional relationship, but a covenant's for a personal relationship. And, uh, and I, I think this is a major, major issue, especially for men. Uh, most guys who went at work, lose at home. Some of the most successful business people we know have some of the most troubled marriages because they have the same mindset at home and work. And it sounds like a, either a, or maybe both and, but either a, a, a false faulty mindset or an improper heart posture. So if somebody is listening is your, the descriptions that you're giving is resonating like, man, I'm, I am moving kind of like in a contractual way. This is, this is not, this is not what I need to be doing, but they may not know. Maybe that's all they know. Maybe that's all they saw growing up. Maybe that's all older people that were in their life, showed them or told them. And now you're, you're breaking it down in such a way that they realize, man, I need to be building a covenantal marriage, not a contractual one. How have you helped people cross over any steps or tips that you would give to the person listening that had an eye-opening moment based on what you just described? Well, if you grew up in a legalistic church environment, your whole view of your relationship with God is contractual. Like if, if you pray with enough faith, then he's going to heal you. If you tithe, then he's going to bless you. If you do the wrong thing, then you're going to lose your salvation. That's all contractual. It's all legalism. It's all punishment and reward. And it's trying to manipulate God, which you can't do. And so, you know, we're very convinced that God is a father and our relationship with him is like a father and a child. And, you know, I've got five kids and I'll just tell you, if you're going to raise a little girl, you better not do contract. You know, you better start. Your love needs to be at the starting line, not the finish line. Your approval needs to be at the starting line, not the finish line. And the problem in a contractual relationship is you've got to earn it. And at any point, you could lose it in a covenant. And so like for Jesus, I think of Jesus at his baptism, the father, you know, speaks from heaven, sends the Holy Spirit and says, this is my son in whom I'm well pleased. And the issue is what had he done yet? He hadn't preached a sermon. He hadn't cast out a demon. He hadn't performed a miracle. He worked from love approval relationship, not for it. The relationship was at the starting line, not the finish line. And in a covenantal relationship, the love, the grace, the mercy, the acceptance, the affection, you start from it. You don't work for it. And, you know, anybody who's a parent, I was, I was much better at being covenantal with our kids than I was my wife, because I didn't have an invisible job description for them. I just was their dad. I was like, well, of course they need me and I love them and I'm going to be there for them. And so Grace one day, she saw that I was, at that time, I was a better father than I was a husband, quite frankly. And she said, how do I get in the same category as the kids? She said, because you love them. You're good to them. You have fun with them. You're gracious with them. You're patient with them. You know, with her, she felt like it was more of a contraction. I was like, okay, that's terrible. I mean, just before I met with you, I just went out and had coffee, checking in on our youngest daughter. And my whole point is I pursue her. I go talk to her. I listen to her. I pray for her. I enjoy her. I love her. And not because I get something in return, just because I'm blessed to be her dad, you know, and, uh, and it's learning to be relational. Most men aren't very relational. That's why they do well at work and school and sports and military, but they don't do good at home. And most men I think are more covenantal usually with their kids than they are their wife. And as soon as God gives you a little girl, or at least for me, it kind of wrecked me. It's like, how, how come I don't have the same parts or disposition or habits toward my wife as I do our daughter. And so what were some practical things that you did once you came to that realization? Like Grace is right. I need to fix this. How did you go about fixing it? Well, I think I, if I'm honest and I don't appreciate all this conviction, by the way, it's just very personal. You're called to this pastor, Mark, you've been helping me in with your straight up advice for a long time. I'm just trying to give people what I've been getting for a while. Yeah. So I, I, I remember when my daughters were little, one of my daughters is sitting right here. And I remember thinking if their husband treats them or thinks about them or interacts with them the way I do their mother, would I be happy with my son-in-law? That's powerful right there. And it's like, man, if some dude was contractual with my daughter, I'd be doing prison ministry from the inside, you know? So like, no, I want him to love her and pursue her and care about her and bless her and not just push her for some result or outcome or constantly be giving her some sort of performance review. And it's like, yeah, why, why do I not treat my wife the way that I would hope someday my daughter is treated by her husband? And so. Yeah, I think another mindset too, is that God showed you that I was God's daughter and you were to treat me as God's daughter and not just whatever view you have as a wife, which was contractual at the time. And so I think that really, really worked out your thinking as well, because you came in to your relationship with God, thinking about it being more contractual. So that needed to switch because when we see God as a heavenly father and ask him to show us what that looks like, it changes how we view other people because we want to be like he is to us, like God is to us. And so I think some of those things really pivoted your mindset. It was really going to the Lord and saying, show me how you are as a father to me. Help me understand and receive that, receive your grace, receive your unconditional love, receive that you just love me. And how do I then give that to my wife? And understanding that view of God was huge. And then understanding that I was God's daughter was kind of that next step. Well, that's where God just, you know, lovingly just wrecked me. But I remember I was, I would have called it prayer, but I was complaining to God about my wife, you know. And I said something to the effect of like, God, I'm just really struggling with my wife. And he spoke to me and he said, before she's your wife, she's my daughter. I was like, okay, I get it. Like, I need to understand that this is the father's daughter. And now that I've got daughters, like I understand that I need to treat his daughter first and foremost as his daughter. And that's where it talks about even in Peter, like if you're harsh with your wife, God's not going to answer your prayers and bless you. And it's literally, God's like, hey, be nice to my girl or don't call me for any favors. The last thing I want to hit on, because I know it's a common thing on this topic, because even going back to your three categories of gross or God or gift. And if you fall into those first categories, there could be like maybe one spouse falls into each or maybe one spouse has a struggle in one of those categories. There are in a lot of instances, as a result, there was broken trust inside of this marriage now. And now they're coming to listen to this. And then they're about to go pick up your new book, Real Romance, because they want better. But trust is a hard thing to overcome, especially on this topic. I know you've walked a lot of people through this. What advice would you give to a couple who wants to get to a place of having real romance in their marriage, but they have this broken trust that they have to get through first? And that's where forgiveness is step one. And, you know, we say that like the two oars in the boat are repentance and forgiveness. The person who's wrong has got to own it. And the person who was wrong needs to forgive it. And so what happens is a lot of couples are like, we fell out of love. You like actually fell out of repentance and forgiveness. And if you've repented, forgive, you stay in love. I mean, so. And you keep short accounts with each other on that. And if there's been betrayal of any kind, that's harder, but it's still possible. And it's still a God asked of us, because that's the whole reason Jesus came, was to forgive us of our sins. And we can't hold on to other people's sins against us. And the hard part of betrayal is that we feel like they should, you know, have some sort of consequence or, you know, why should we forgive them? But the problem with unforgiveness is that it affects us and hurts us. It's not actually hurting the offender. It's actually harming us because bitterness is a horrible root inside of us. And it creates just all kinds of wounds and lies and inner vows. And so forgiveness is handing it over to the Lord to deal with the person. And you're letting that burden go. And then you're building retrust is the key. And you need to work extra hard if there's been betrayal to build that trust with each other, to make the security in their relationship return so that you can trust each other. When we say forgiveness is free, trust is earned. And there's a difference between forgiveness and trust. And let's say you've got a marriage where somebody is, you know, kept a secret adulterous affair for an extended period of time. You can forgive them, but you can't trust them quite yet. They need to prove trustworthy. And so forgiveness is something that God gives you to share with them. Trust is something that they need to prove trustworthy. And that's a process. And I think a lot of times in marriage, it's like, well, I don't fully trust you. It's like, I thought you forgave me. Those are two different things. I can forgive you. But until I see character change, I can't find you trustworthy. And it doesn't mean you want to be legalistic or, you know, hold the sword of Damocles over your spouse's head. But at the end of the day, it's like, trust is like an account. And the more trustworthy you are, the more deposits you make, the more betrayal you have, the more withdrawals you make, you can bankrupt the account. I mean, you deal a lot in the financial realm. This is more the emotional relational account in the marriage. If you're betraying and criticizing and dishonest and covert, those are all withdrawals. If you're repenting, you're humble, you're teachable, you surround yourself with good accountability. If you are seeking to grow, those are all deposits. And so the problem is in a lot of marriages, you want your spouse to just pretend like the account is full. But if you've betrayed, you've made some massive withdrawals. And over time and a process, you're going to need to rebuild that trust. So what we like to say is when trust has been broken, a lot of times people say, well, I need a new spouse. What we like to say is, no, you need a new marriage. You can have a new marriage with the same spouse. That's one of the themes in the book. Because oftentimes what happens is you leave your spouse, you go get a new marriage. But if you're bitter or you haven't changed your thinking, the rate of divorce in the second marriage is higher than the first marriage. And so, you know, why not get a new marriage with the same spouse rather than go get a new spouse? Hey man, speaking of which, Real Romance is the name of the book. And I want you guys to kind of tell the audience a little bit more about what they'll find in it. And one admonition I will give to everybody listening is there's a lot of truth in the Song of Solomon's, but it's not easy to read all by itself. And you all do a fantastic job of going line by line and unpacking the truths for us in a way that we can understand it and apply it to our marriage. So let everybody know a little bit more about what they'll find in the pages of Real Romance and where they can pick up their copy. Yeah, well, our ministry, and thank you. Thank you for having us. And thank you for your ministry. And all our stuff is at realfaith.com. And there's a free app. I mean, there's Bible teaching and Q&A and books of the Bible and daily devotions, free books, and there's a lot of stuff there. And in that we do have the sermons from this series. There's also in the Real Marriage tab, we have a podcast that we do with XO. And so in the sermon series, we're covering about two thirds of the book of Song of Songs. And then the rest is all on the podcast because some of it is a little PG-13 maybe, you know, for church. Yeah. I mean, you know, if you got kids in the room, they're like, is that all I got here? I mean, it's a little explicit. And so we've got the book, the Real Romance book, we've got the Real Marriage podcast, and we've got the sermons. And for us, we're going through this book of the Bible. And it is, it's 3,000-year-old poetry between a husband and a wife. And there's a lot of metaphor and symbolism and a lot of ancient imagery. And so you don't know the book, you're like, what? The Nard of Saffron? Hannah? Like what? What is going on? You know, he compares her to, you know, like... Her foxes in their vineyard and... Yeah. Why are her two breasts like twin fawns? Like what? You know, like, but it's, once you understand it, it all makes sense. And so we try to help unpack it, but it's not a commentary. It's very readable, super practical, and it's to build marriage. And then there's discussion questions at the end of each chapter to get face-to-face and work on issues in your marriage. And so we just tried to make it very biblical, very practical, very simple, as best as we could. You all did a fantastic job. And before we let you guys go, there's a real attack on marriages that's been happening since the Garden of Eden. Would you mind praying for us as we conclude? Dear Lord, thank you that you set out what marriage is supposed to be, and when we do it your way, it can be successful. So Lord, thank you that you've created a man and a woman to be married. And when we look to you for guidance as the head of our relationship, that it can be incredible. It can be beautiful. It can be fruitful. It can be joyful. Lord, I pray that over marriages that are listening, I pray that you would reign over their marriages, that you would give them the gift of sex, and that they would understand that in new and fresh ways, that you would bring healing where there's brokenness, Lord, and that you would allow for them to have new wisdom and new ways of doing life and be challenged to not just keep doing what they're doing. But Lord, you have a new way. You have the right way. And so I pray that we would follow that and that you would just witness through this book, that you'd witness through this podcast. Thank you for their faithfulness and continuing to teach your word and how to do things your way as well. And Lord, just bless and provide in new ways for the people that are listening in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you, buddy. Amen. Pastor Mark Grace Driscoll, thank you so very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to share this information with us today. You're welcome. Thank you. Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, another fantastic edition of the His and Her Money Show is in the book. Speaking of books, the new book from Pastor Mark and Grace Driscoll is Real Romance. We have a link to it in the show notes of this episode. Click the link, pick up the copy, walk it out, execute it. It's good to get information. It's a whole other thing to execute upon the information that you get. We want not only for your finances to go to next level, but we want marriage to do that as well. What's the point getting all this money if you come home and things aren't where they need to be? So take the time, make the investment into your marriage today. That's all we got for this time, guys. It's been great. Till next time. Peace.