Amb. David Friedman: How to Deal with Iran and Resolve the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

America is now coming in they can do something very simple which is start enforcing sanctions against Iran I mean Iran doubled its GDP from the end of the Trump Administration to now so if you notice when Trump got elected the Iranian currency dropped precipitously to the lowest in history so maybe America never has to fire a shot maybe America with the combination of enforcing massive sanctions that bankrupt Iran and with the recognition that Israel can hit Iran anytime anywhere it brings uh Iran away from its nuclear activity but I also believe that if they don't if they continue to pursue a nuclear bomb I have no doubt that America together with Israel will be partners and whatever it takes to stop that activity as part of our special series on the US Presidential transition period I'm sitting down with David fredman US ambassador to Israel in the last Trump Administration one of the chief architects of the Abraham Accords and the author of one Jewish State this is American thought leaders and I'm Yan Kell Ambassador David fredman such a pleasure to have you on American thought leaders thank you Yan great to be with you so you had a pretty consequential term as US ambassador to Israel I off the top of my head you know there's something called the Abraham Accords that happened um of course the embassy moved to Jerusalem that was something that I think nobody really expected um what do you think of the new uh the new pick for US ambassador to Israel what do you think he's going to face well Mike's a dear friend I mean really one of one of my closest friends um I think he's going to be great um I I couldn't be more excited about his pick um obviously he's coming into a different period in in the relationship than when uh when I came in I mean the when I came in the relationship was challenged we had a very Israel had a very difficult time under during the Obama years and so you know I came in and the goal was to was to fix that and he'll have the same uh general focus I think to fix some of the problems with the Biden Harris Administration but then of course you have the war which you know I didn't have I didn't have this October 7th massive trauma to to Israel so he'll have to work uh on the rebuilding uh he'll have I think a more security oriented Focus but his commitment to Israel is absolutely Rock Solid just as strong as mine but we both view uh American support for Israel as really essential uh both to uh to America's uh you know national interests and to America's Soul so uh you know I think he'll be uh I think he he'll follow much in the way that I did and just very briefly tell me about the soul here you're talking about America um you know it has a First Amendment right which we don't establish any religion but America's never been a Godless country you know America you know you can go to any Court house in the United States you'll see the words in God we trust you know we pledge allegiance to one nation under God and um and the Declaration of Independence which was a transformative document says that um you know the the human rights that are enumerated there life liberty The Pursuit of Happiness are endowed by our creator right they they come from God and how do uh how do we know what values what rights God you know thought were be should be endowed in every human being for reading the Bible and so you know people talk you Loosely about judeo-christian values but they really are at the core of uh of the American you know founding and where did those you know values come from where from where did they emerge where they emitted well you know Isaiah tells us that of out of Zion Goes Forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem so uh this is not just an ordinary relationship you know between two countries this is a relationship um between America and the country from which the essential core values that animate and create the American civilization emerged and so that's the soul that's the soul I'm referring to so and what would you say was the biggest single challenge that Ambassador huabi is going to face well um soon to be Ambassador the Islamic Republic of Iran that that is the uh essential challenge uh all of the uh Bad actors that have attacked Israel recently and even going back years they're really either funded or inspired or motivated uh or trained or in all in some cases all four by the Islamic Republic of Iran so where does Iran go from here I mean it's been there's you know we we've witnessed in the last 6 months a real war like an actual war between Israel and Iran actual kinetic activity Israel has done some magnificent things um but you know they've had 180 ballistic missiles shot at them by Iran then 300 ballistic missiles none of them so far have had nuclear warheads but just imagine you know if they did so these are things that Israel has to now make sure it can prevent uh there's rumors that the Islamic the leader just died today I mean we're we'll find out more information about that but there's a lot happening in Iran it deeply affects Israel and the United States and uh and I think we're getting the right Administration in place to deal with that maybe just tell me a little bit about what was accomplished during the Trump Administration with respect to Israel we talked a little bit about the Abraham Accords and the sort of these peace agreements but what what else happened well look I think the thing that you know was was was the most anticipated and probably the most appreciated was moving our Embassy to Jerusalem um there was a Jerusalem Embassy Act passed by huge majorities in Congress in 1995 but it had a waiver Clause that enabled presidents to to to wave the move you know in six months intervals because of uh an argument of national security so whether it was under um Clinton or under Bush or under Obama these you know they promised during their campaign that they would move the embassy because it was very popular among American people but they never did it and they always used this National Security waiver as the way down so we we changed that um a year into the Trump Administration the president stopped signing waivers and we we he recognized Jerusalem as Israel's Capital moved the embassy uh to uh to Jerusalem we had a ceremony opening the embassy on May 14th of 2018 70 years to the day of Israel's independence I think we had 100 million people watching it on live on television it was such a momentous and popular event and really just kind of it was just the the right thing to do especially in response to so many of Israel's enemies simply denying any historical connection between the Jewish people and the City of Jerusalem which is just you know disproven textually archaeologically for all kinds of ways so that was the first thing then you know there was there were other territorial disputes that that we dealt with such as the Goan Heights which is incredibly strategically important uh there's a dispute between Israel and Syria as to who has sovereignty over the Gul on Heights Israel had declared its sovereignty back in 1981 but the Us and other countries didn't accept it so he changed that so president Trump recognized Israelis the Israeli Sovereign of the Goan Heights then we turn to the the West Bank that we were just talking about and the question as well do the Jewish people have the right to live there or not because the state department back to 1978 had a policy that uh written by a guy named Herbert Hansel that that it was illegal for the Jewish people to live anywhere in the West Bank which by the way extends as well to the old city of Jerusalem he said it's all illegal it's all illegally occupied territory that was really a call for Mike Pompeo the Secretary of State to look at that and he did and we we spent about eight months you know researching and looking at it and he came out with what's been referred to is the Pompeo Doctrine where he reversed all that and said the Jewish people have the right to live in Judea and Samaria which is their biblical Homeland um so those are you know that plus the Abraham Accords is sort of I would say the the four things that are mostly closely associated with the president's pro-israel position throughout his first term do you expect that Saudi Arabia might join into something like the Abraham Accords in this during this future Administration um I think so I think I think s would have joined if we probably had another six months or so in uh in our first term but I think they will join uh I think they have every interest in joining there's a lot to be gained from s normalizing with uh Israel uh it's I think a very strong Bull workk against you know further dangerous activity by Iran uh there's also a lot to begin from sodi you know increasing its ties with the United States and there's a lot to begin from sodi moving closer to I would say modernity I mean they're doing a lot now trying to move forward you know from a a fairly nonmodern Society uh I think all that is good I think it hopefully leads the Muslim world because the Sodis are the leaders of the Muslim World leads the Muslim world I think out of the Dark Ages which unfortunately so many uh Muslim uh regimes have have kind of uh you know facilitated so yeah I think it's I think we're heading in that direction Mr Ambassador just a quick sec we're going to take a break and we'll be right back and we're back with former US ambassador to Israel David fredman something that we've heard a lot about um is unra I've actually done a number number of episodes on the topic and um you know we know now that there were some of these UNR employees that were you know involved in the October 7th activities and of course the Trump Administration kind of famously defunded it and then it was refunded what what should happen with un uh I I I just bury it and start again it's so deeply fluid um I think that comes from the top down I think it comes not just from unra in Gaza but the the unra establishment all the way back to uh a couple blocks from where we are now at the UN I should just mention that this is for those that aren't aware it's the it's this agency specifically for uh refugees Palestinian refugees right and and I guess and I maybe clarify it even a little further which is that the UN has a all-purpose Refugee organization that tries to settle refugees it's called un High commission for refugees and that's for all the refugees in the world except for one group and that's the Palestinians and HRA is the singular um commission for Palestinian refugees and it would extend technically you know to somebody like uh Gigi Hadid you know who's a supermodel in Beverly Hills but who came from Palestine before 1948 um it's um it's not just a waste of money but it does sponsor schools um that really um inculcate people with deep hatred for um for uh for Jews I mean I can tell you one fourth grade school play and half the kids dress up as Jews you know with like beards and you know big noses put on I mean the you know worst caricatures of Jews and then the others dress up as terrorists with you know machine guns and and you know fatigues and the the the the guys with the machine guns shoot the Jews the Jews fall down dead and then the uh the the the guys with the guns Take a Bow and the parents all all P it this is a fourth grade play and it's all under the supervision of so um I think it's broken I think it's irretrievably broken um I don't know how many unra employees were um were Hamas terrorists but it's it's not a small number and I just start from scratch and so what do you expect the US will do I think under the Trump Administration for you know I know they're going to be very circumspect about any organization that purports to um inject money back into the Gaza Strip without getting real assurances that the money is going to go to the right places um I think we need another country to come in that has some credibility again I'm not sure why anyone wants to jump into this into this mess but um the idea that America is going to throw money at this without real Assurance is that it's going to lead to a better outcome um I think I I'd be very skeptical without further Ado let's jump into the one state solution or or the one Jewish State and sure um well why don't you kind of lay out the argument for me sure yeah you start with the conclusion that we can't have a uh a Palestinian state it is an existential risk to to to Israel it's probably an existential risk to Jordan as well uh the last thing the world needs is a terror State between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea um the Palestinians have proven themselves ineligible to have uh a state in which they they control their airspace their borders their you know magnetic Spectrum I mean they they they just can't it's too much of a risk to the entire region so now we're sort of in the business of collecting resumes right who's best equipped to be Sovereign someone's got to be Sovereign let Ambassador let me just jump in for a moment so but basically you're saying that it the Palestinian people do not have a right of self-determination is that what you're saying here on a on a national level yeah I would say that sure um and I'm and I'm not sure why they're any different from other peoples that don't have I mean there are lots of peoples around the world that don't have their own country that are living good lives and and are content with their Environ so and I would also say that the Palestinians have never really expressed a serious desire for National self-determination that's different from controlling your own your un local taxes your own local zoning your own local curriculum assuming it's not you know malign um I I think anyone would deny any people the right to have local autonomy but national self self-determination you know where they get an army and they get the ability to uh to to act you know potentially against their neighbors no because they've shown no capacity to live in peace with their neighbors for a period of of decades many many decades and of course the the low point being on October 7th 2003 but the other thing I would say uh Yan is that um their leadership Mah abas is supposed to be the the better one the better you know leader of the bunch right he he got a he got a phone call into president Trump you know after the election he um he's in like the 19th year of a four-year term right Ian he was elected for four years he stayed on for 15 years he hasn't called elections he shown a massive capacity for corruption and enrichment of his cronies so I think that you know from the perspective of the Palestinians of which I have a decent perspective having spent four years in the region and meeting a lot of uh Palestinian people um I think a lot of them have no particular confidence in the ability of a Palestinian government to act appropriately to make their lives better more prosperous uh more freedom more dignity so I think you have to look at this in not in terms of you know absolute rights it's a question of reality facts on the ground and what's happened in the past and on this record I would say the Palestinians do not have a right of national self-determination essentially you're arguing for Israeli sovereignty over the West bank right I am but Israel's sovereignty over the West Bank does not mean the the absence of a right of the Palestinians to live there the West Bank is divided into areas a b and c and areas A and B are entirely uh Arab and area sea is mostly Jewish although Arabs have encroached into it um my view is that get rid of all those you know fictions um one large territory governed by Israel uh where Israel will export to this region the values uh of democracy and freedom and opportunity that it has in its own legally recognized country and um and the Palestinians who live in this territory uh will continue to live there as well their children and their grandchildren they'll have the rights to be permanent residents in this in this territory and um and their lives will improve dramatically I mean that's that's the it's not there's and I think this is a very important point because people love to use the you know the a word you know the apartheid word when they talk about Israel generally and you know people should study apartheid because apartheid was you know efforts by the South African government the racist South African government to take black people pull them out pull them out of their homes move them into shanties without running water or electricity and move them all into these substandard areas this is the opposite this is a plan where the Palestinians who live in the West Bank will live there will have the the legal entitlement to remain there their children their grandchild children as well and their lives will be improved because Israel will then once it has sovereignty over this area and it owns it it will have the the capacity to then inject you know better roads and highways and and uh and schools and hospitals so it's an end to the notion of a Palestinian state right because obviously if Israel takes sovereignty over the entirety of the land that would have been at least in part earmarked for a Palestinian State there can no longer be a Palestinian State that's a good thing that's a good thing for Israel it's a good thing for Jordan it's a good thing for the the world and it's a good thing good thing for the Palestinian people as well look inside of Israel right now there's a 20% Arab minority right um uh there's about four or five Elite universities in Israel maybe better than some of our most elite universities more than 20% of the students in these Elite universities are Arab right Arabs have achieved you know the Pinnacle of law medicine Commerce business Academia so um you know Israel has a track record of empowering its minorities and treating them well and my argument and that's why I'm very careful about the words I use for the book One Jewish State okay there's there's 30 or 40 Muslim states around the world right there's Christian States Buddhist States Hindu States okay we just talk about one Jewish State just one right it's the size of New Jersey okay and and and my argument is there ought to be room in this world for one Jewish State on the land as to which the Jewish people have the greatest you know historical entitlement than any people anywhere in the world if Israel's going to absorb this this territory you know you run the risk that Palestinians are going to elect a non-jewish a non-jewish regime to for the one Jewish state so we have to find a way to to thread this needle and and I believe it's threadable there's no government in the world that that hasn't created some negotiated regime around the goals that the government sought to achieve so for example you know when America was formed right there there there was a concern about just having a House of Representative right which is the most populist um house you know most most populist body of our branches of government right because it's picked directly by by people in every single congressional district so they created a uh a senate right what does a senate mean Senate means that if I live in Montana right where I am you know one 1,000th of the population of the United States I still get to pick 150th of the United States Senate is that a democracy these are the various you know interests that came together to create our country right it's not a pure democracy so we can come up with 10 different ways to thread this needle what we can't do is is create a governance mechanism that jeopardizes the one Jewish state short of that you know the Palestinians would have autonomy on civilian matters I think that would frankly give people a lot of Pride as to how the Palestinians were able to run their lives I I think you're suggesting they wouldn't have voting rights is that right not on a national level Arabs in Israel have that right citizens of Israel have that right I had one example I I pointed out the fact that you know in America in Puerto Rico you know the they also don't vote you know so this isn't necessarily such a new idea right I mean Caroline Glick wrote a book about it there's there's people that are advocating for it but you know is just something that you don't hear very much about uh on on this side of the pond so to speak right so why is that well a couple reasons first of all there's only so much you know appetite will have to really deal with a with a problem that's been around forever you know for everybody's Collective memory it's always been a problem and I think you know people might productively spend their time elsewhere uh the other thing is the two-state solution has you know become if you will the you know certainly it's the mother's milk of the democratic party and probably other than Trump the uh you know the mother's milk of the Republican party I mean this is somehow people kind of got this idea back from the early 90s that this was the idea you know you put the Jews over here you put the Palestinians over there they live you know equal measures of whatever you think is important of you know autonomy and dignity and and um and they live side by side and we'd have peace and you know Kumbaya it it's just a fantasy I mean it's it's it's it's the Lazy Man's approach to the Middle East because you know you just say yeah why don't we just split you know they're having a dispute on land they split it up draw a line split it up everybody gets what they get and then you know it's just it's not what the conflict is about Palestinians you know uh do not want to live in peacefully in a state side by side Israel the Palestinian movement from the day it was it was created is a movement to destroy the state of Israel it's not a two-state solution it's really their one-state solution when you hear everybody yelling on college campuses from The River To The Sea Palestine will be free that is the Palestinian goal from the Jordan River to the Sea which means uh extinguish the state of Israel replace it with Palestine I think that people don't want to confront that unpleasant reality because once you confront it and you got to deal with it well you know makes it much harder right you you lose your convenient you know split the baby argument nobody has managed to construct a two-state solution that doesn't that that won't be an existential threat to the state of Israel oh Ambassador David Freedman it's such a pleasure to have had you on the show it's been a great conversation thank you Yan thank you all for joining Ambassador David fredman and me on this episode of American thought leaders I'm your host Yan Kell [Music]