The Immense Weight of Playing Jesus

I just felt completely out of my element for that scene because all of a sudden now I'm saying these words that Jesus said to these people that are like looking at me and and I'm there and I'm like what am I doing here? So here we are. It's about time. Yes, we have not talked about this publicly in years and some people might be surprised to hear This whole Jesus director thing started a while before The Chosen. How long was it? Was it six years? Five years ago. I was casting a short film for my church's Good Friday service and I was primarily focused on finding the two thieves and you auditioned for one of the thieves on the cross and I'm like we don't have a Jesus. We don't have anyone who can play Jesus but I saw something in Jonathan that seems to have the tenderness that I'm looking for too. So let's see if maybe he should audition for Jesus and you came back and auditioned as Jesus and about seven seconds into the audition I went decision made and then I remember when we were shooting and we'll get to that in a second because I want to hear from your perspective on this but when we were shooting I remember thinking to myself this is the best depiction of Jesus I've ever seen. It's exactly what I've always envisioned. The masculinity combined with tenderness. That was five years ago. We ended up doing several vignettes since then for my church again. Little scenes and whatnot always coming at it from the perspective of trying to show the same story but from different angles and different perspectives. So tell me your perspective on this because we haven't talked a ton about the beginning. We talk a lot about the process but yeah. Well to go back to The Two Thieves I was really interested in that film and reading for the role of the thief, the penitent thief and I thought I had a pretty decent audition and then when I got a call a couple days later to read for Jesus my first reaction was like oh but he's got like five lines. I got the supporting role. Demos, he's got the whole thing is about his arc. But I love me some Jesus so I'll read as Jesus and I had played Jesus once before for a multimedia project like literally for the first time like six months prior. I read for that and then got it and I was like okay well this is actually pretty awesome. It's a pretty awesome culmination for that film and I was really really blessed to have that experience and then to be able to come back and do those vignettes that you talked about where I was like wow this is great. And then seeing people's reactions at the church when we would scream the films on, I think I was there for like Holy Thursday when we would scream the films like seven different, five different screenings. Yeah because my church had for Good Friday we would get about 15,000 people over the course of two days so we did four fives. On Thursday. Yeah on Thursday and then a few more on Friday. And then I started to really having people kind of start to connect with like people that saw the films in the vignettes in the audience for the first time was like wow this is really having an impact on people in a way that I just couldn't have even anticipated. And then cut to years later where we're gearing up to do season one of The Chosen. He had called me about it and you know it seemed so. It's kind of like let's take this show on the road. We're gonna go all the way with this now. And I didn't you know and when you first talked to me about it was probably like middle of 2018 and you're like hey we're thinking about this thing and you're very kind of like playing it very close and nothing was in stone yet and I was like all right man yeah if it happens it happens it'd be great I'm down to do a multi-season series about the life of Christ why not. I'm a working actor who most of whom are not working during you know during the year. And then to finally get the scripts and say this is real it was like whoa this is these are really good. When you're reading episode one you're going still Jesus only has five lines. It was basically coming at the end and I've got like four lines what the. Well at least episode two that'll be different. Nope nope he shows up at the end there too. Yeah okay I think I say hi Mary very good I give a wink and I'm done I'm like what is he doing to me here you know. And episode three was like okay good now now I get to. Finally Dallas has come to his senses finally. Right so I feel like some of those vignettes and the short film The Two Thieves were in many ways a test case we were figuring out some of the things that we're doing now and I'm so glad that we did that because that's where we discovered our first Jesus joke. So in that vignette where you're sitting around the campfire and you call Peter Peter for the first time and before that we tried this idea of the disciples hanging out and joking and their arm wrestling and Thaddeus defeats Andrew in an upset. I can't believe he beat Andrew. Even I didn't see that coming. Jesus says even I didn't see that coming and I remember when I ran that past my wife when I first thought of like wouldn't it be funny if he kind of made fun of his own deity and she was like we'll see like yeah I'm not sure and I remember when we were in the room watching it and there's 2,000 people and I remember the laughter that came when you said that and it was a different kind of laughter. It was a laughter of warmth and I remember people coming up to me afterwards saying thank you so much. The humor made Jesus more real to me and it was so unique and so different. So I want to talk about a little bit the humanity of Jesus versus the deity. We believe that Jesus is both God and man. However, the man part has seemed to be diminished in most Jesus portrayals in favor of the piety of the God part. Some of the most famous depictions of Christ are of him a little bit more stoic, a little bit more pious and one of the things that we loved about The Passion of the Christ is those scenes with Jesus and his mom where he's teasing her and splashing her with water because it made Jesus into a man. You as the actor, I want to get into later. We're going to talk about Jonathan playing the part of Jesus and the weight that that is but let's first talk about the character. I hate to use that term because he was a person but is a person but as an actor. For the sake of this project, as a character. As an actor approaching a character, you can't exactly play the godness of it. We can't capture that on film really and what's going on in Jesus's mind. Talk about how you approach it when you're reading the scripts and for you this is very personal and usually right before take one of scene one of each of these seasons, you and I kind of step aside, we hug, we talk, we might cry a little bit feeling the weight of what we're about to do but the humanity of Jesus, how you approach it as an actor versus the deity. Talk about that a little bit. Well, I think one of the things that separates The Chosen from other projects, I mean there's a number of things I can speak to about that but what allows us to delve into the possibilities of what Jesus's humanity could have been like is the fact that we have time. We have space. We've got episodes and pages and we're not limited to two hours to try to cram it all in and I think that's a lot of what I've noticed in many portrayals of Jesus that have been super stoic. It's like well they're limited to the time that they have with the lines from the gospel from scripture and then they got to move on and tell this story in a very limited window of time whereas we have the opportunity to let this breathe a little bit. So for me, I think it's knowing that and then really just trying to empty myself of everything that is me in service to being open as a channel for the spirit to come and work through me and essentially raise my game as a human being. So to be the best version of myself around everybody at all times on set is how I approach the humanity of Jesus. Like how would he have just interacted with people and how does he deal with conflict and how does he deal with humor and surely a man that had such an intense ministry for those final three years in his earthly life had to have been bestowed with a sense of a human sense of humor to be able to deal with all the characters and all the quirks of the disciples and the people that he met and the people that are constantly asking him for things and for healing and he tired like we did. He'd go and get out of the way and go to the mountains and kind of try to get away from crowds because he was in a physical body so he reacted like physical humans do and so I think dealing with people like Peter, I mean Simon Petey had to have a sense of humor to deal with Peter. There was no way around it in my opinion. This is off topic for a second but one of my favorite moments in the first eight episodes is you talking to Eden and it's such a beautiful moment of saying I see you and I want you to recognize that you have a role in all of this and it's a very, very precious moment. One that I remember when we came up with the idea for it my wife and I were both crying to the notion of Jesus speaking to a wife who might not be feeling like she has a role as many women felt back then and even sometimes today feeling when their husbands are doing ministry but as I love to do, I love inserting humor into really emotional moments and when you say to Eden, do you think, you know, real Simon, normal Simon is difficult enough. Do you think I want to deal with a worried Simon? And she says no and you go no, I do not. No sir. Such a great moment and we'll talk about the humor in just a minute but two moments that come to mind when I think of the humanity of Jesus and how we're portraying it that have impacted people significantly is episode three when you're getting ready for bed and we have you dressing a wound and stretching and making a fire and what's ironic about the fact that that scene is only about the humanity of Jesus is how much people have said that it's brought them closer to the deity of Jesus because of that. You'd think people might go, oh I don't like seeing Jesus as a normal human, I want to think of him as God. It's been the opposite. So when you were doing a scene like that, I remember, you know, you're trying to make the fire and it was real. I mean, we weren't cheating. Yeah, no, that was, you had to be a really tough person to live in the first century, you know, the first century world, anywhere. Like, if you're making your own fire and you're trying to fend for yourself, I mean, it's hard enough now but if you had to do it with literally just sticks and, you know, those guys and gals, they had to be a whole, there's a whole other layer of thickness to their skin I think that we don't have today because it had to be. And that would have been Jesus too. That's right. Jesus was a craftsman. He was not exempt from that. Right, and the fact that he, we have people commenting on social media like he could have just asked fire to come down and start the fire but yet he was doing it himself and you and I talk, we have a running gag throughout all of this which I'll also get to in a second about how we kind of get through some of this weightiness is by making jokes. But we had this bit of Jesus going, I can raise the dead but I can't get a fire going, you know, but those moments. Leprosy? No problem. Kiddling? Impossible. But we, that episode of seeing Jesus dress his own wound instead of touching it and having it magically heal, we, you and I have talked about this as our belief theologically is that Jesus did diminish his Godhead for the sake of the humanity so that he could legitimately say to people, I feel what you feel. Now even saying diminish is probably the wrong word because he was still God but him putting that aside to feel the pain of it, I would imagine that helps you a little bit because then you don't have to be thinking all the time as an actor, how do I act like God? Yeah, I don't ever think of it as how do I act as God would because I can't, I can't possibly wrap my head around that. But I know what it's like to bleed and so did Jesus and, you know, and in far greater depths than I will ever know but even just having that, you know, that first experience of, I mean, skinning his knee as a boy, you know, I mean, I'm sure that happened multiple times, you know, and having that be a reminder of, for me, you know, potentially what the future holds and what his sacrifice is going to ultimately be for mankind, it's, I don't think he would have shied away from that, you know, I think it's like, it's a constant reminder of why he's here. Yeah, he avoids cutting himself because he's like, I got plenty of that coming, I'm going to save up that for later. But the other moment that, this happened multiple times, but this example comes to mind of being in the moment as the actor and portraying Jesus, episode eight, when you were with the Samaritan woman, and it didn't say in the script that Jesus got emotional at the end, but when she says, I'm going to tell everyone and just gets so excited, starts running off, you couldn't do it without getting emotional. I mean, I remember every time your eyes would get glassy. I'm getting emotional thinking about it. Yeah, I know, because she was so beautiful in her portrayal of the joy that she experienced when she saw the Messiah. So talk about that, because I, that's the part I don't, I can relate to the writing and talking with you about the character and preparing for the scene, but some of those things that happen in the moment, as an actor playing Jesus, what is happening there? What was happening to you? What's in your thought process when Vanessa, who plays that character, is giving that performance and you're just reacting like you didn't expect? For me, I mean, what was happening at that moment was that there, this woman who I wanted to get to know the infinite and eternal love within me, all of a sudden opened herself up to the possibility of receiving love and receiving the Spirit and receiving Christ and accepting a Messiah that has converted her heart and taken all this pain and now given her a reason to spread joy, you know, and to transform the circumstances of her life into something that is, I think, God wants for all of us. And to be filled with this spirit of joy, it's infectious, and because it's coming from a place of profound love and acceptance and just watching her embody that. As an actor, it's like, you can't help but react to that and just, you know, like she's so full of joy, like a renewed spirit and a renewed strength and hopefulness. And I think, you know, we're living in times where we need hope and we need faith that there is, that it's not as bad as it all seems, that at the end of the day, that if we have our sense of faith and if we really tap into who Christ is and what he means, what he can do for us, that no matter what the circumstances look like, no matter how bad things get, no matter what the falls is, that there's always something far beyond our comprehension and something greater that will sustain us throughout all of it. Do you feel like, because actors will say, in that moment, I was the character. I felt like I was that person. It's a little different, it's a little dicier when you're playing Jesus. When you've had those moments, especially that were unexpected, you've described this, and I believe this has happened, and this has happened on the set so many times, where the Spirit is present and is guiding us, whether it's guiding me in the directing, guiding you in the performance. But you're probably not ever feeling like, I felt like I was Jesus in that moment. Where does that line begin or end in terms of, in the moment, I felt that moment, I was emotional in response to her. How do you navigate that? I never feel that I've succeeded at being Jesus in that moment. To me, that's impossible to actually ever achieve. I think it's, especially whenever you're playing a real person, a human, like a biopic or something like that, to actually attempt to try to experience their being, I think is an impossible goal as an actor. So what instead I shoot for is to try to get the closest possible feeling that Jesus might have had. Even then, trying to understand what that would be is difficult. So the best that I can do is try to just experience everything, every emotion that I think is needed for a scene, just on a much more intense level. So whether it's mercy or compassion, I try to have exponential amounts of mercy and compassion for the person in that scene. And I try to feel that as an actor towards my scene partner. And if it's humor and love or like mirth or something, surprise, it's about trying to, I think, experience humanity on a much more tactile scale than I walk around as Jonathan every day. That's the best way I can describe it. It's like, if I've succeeded, it's because I've been in the scene, especially if it's got emotional constraints or there's something that needs to happen emotionally. I feel I've succeeded when my best attempts at what I think that emotion is, I can feel them myself. And if that happens, I feel I've done my job. But it's not, that's what Jesus was, you know what I mean? It's more like, this is what he might have felt, and I hope I can get to that point. Which is great. Close to it. Yeah, which is great. But we've seen it happen, I'm going to say at least 10 times, where a day player actor, for example, a day player is someone who comes in for one day to film, which is a very difficult job, or one of our regulars, has been in a scene with you, and they weren't expecting to be emotional, or they weren't expecting to have goosebumps or whatever, but we've seen it happen a lot, especially when they're doing a scene where they're on camera and you're not, and you'll just kind of stand near the camera and just look at them, where they're saying, I felt something, I felt the Spirit, including people who aren't believers. I mean, you and I have talked about this before, of people, they feel compelled to share their story with you. I mean, you'll come to me and say, yeah, I was just talking to so-and-so, he's dealing with a lot in his life, and God is doing something in his life right now, and I mean, this happens so often, and again, it could start to cross the line into people thinking, I feel like I'm looking at Jesus. And when we're performing a scene, that's a good thing, you want people to be in character. Does that make you uncomfortable at times? I think, well, first of all, thank you for sharing that, because I didn't know about day players, or people in the scenes getting goosebumps. I had never heard that, so that's news to me. And that's really interesting to me, and to me, that's the presence of the Spirit in the work, you know, touching people's hearts, right? But we also remember some of our regulars, like the scene, I won't name names to protect their own personal story, but the one actor telling us that he couldn't say a certain line to you without weeping every time, and he was trying not to weep, because he was trying to get the words out. And it happens often when the actors are doing lines that actually express that they believe. That moment where the character is having a change of heart, or an acceptance of Christ in some way, something happens to their bodies that I believe God is doing in that moment. So I don't want to keep rambling about it, but does that ever make you feel almost uncomfortable, or have you come to grips with it? I mean, it's extraordinary to know that people are experiencing that, and that goes beyond any kind of role I think that any of us have ever played, or any kind of experience working in this business, in this industry, doing this job that any of us can speak to. No, I never really kind of get a hold on that, or come to grips with that. I think what's on set, it's one thing to kind of feel that and experience that, and to channel that. Where it gets a little surreal is when you meet people outside of set. Who've seen the show. Who've seen the show, like I know there were some, I think we'd run into some investors in Texas when we were out and about grabbing lunch and stuff, who were just, all of a sudden it was like, there's a little bit of Starstruck thing going on, and I'm not used to that, and I don't know how anybody ever gets used to it, but... I've gotten used to it. Been meaning to talk to you about that. And it's not just like, oh, you're my favorite character. There's this other thing in some people's eyes where it's like, wow. And they're like, whoa, what's going on? For this particular role, it's taken a different thing. I guess that does get a little scary at times, because you want people to know that I am human, I'm completely flawed, I'm probably one of the most flawed people on this entire project, but here I am, because this is where God put me for reasons unbeknownst to me. And all I'm going to do is just show up and try to serve him and be the best representation of his love on earth that I can be. Right. We decided in episode three to just really, I really wanted to introduce Jesus in a whole episode where, unlike all the other episodes, we're just getting to know Jesus. And we thought that one of the best ways to get to know Jesus was, besides being alone with him, was to see him interact with children. And so we kind of gave this prelude of Jesus's ministry, a preview of Jesus's ministry, with these kids. And then there's another glimpse in episode five when everyone is talking and milling about and drinking wine or whatever, and Jesus is with the kids and he's doing tricks. We've gotten comments about episode three of one of the very favorite moments is when the kids are praying the Shema, and the notion of Jesus hearing a prayer to his father and to him being recited by these children and known by these children. In that moment, and then to see Jesus listen and to get emotional, was that something that on the day in that moment kind of came on you a little bit similar to the scene later when you're teaching the kids and little Joshua raises his hand and says, Isaiah, after you quote, while you're here, I come to bring good news to the poor. He says, Isaiah. And you go, Isaiah. And there's this emotional moment. Is that made easier by working with children who are just so fresh and in the moment? I think it absolutely is. I also think with those specific scenes and hearing the kids read back scripture and essentially revering God in their language and praising God and worshipping God, I think it's why we were created is to want to choose God. God made us, and he wants us to choose him. And when we do, it's like, there's nothing better than this. There's nothing better than this. And so in my mind, Jesus is reflecting that idea that these kids are doing the thing that they were created to do, and they're choosing to do it, and they're doing it so well. To me, it's like, it's what God wants. It's what he's wanted, and he's getting it from these kids before life has a chance to get its claws on them and people have a chance to influence them and change them. But right now, it's the purity and the perfection of praise and worship brought by these magnificent and incandescent souls. One of the reasons we haven't done BTS stuff with you much, even B-roll on the set, we try not to show much of you screwing around with the actors and whatnot, is because... I don't screw around with the actors. Of course not. Perfect. But we're trying to protect a little bit, in some ways protect you, because there are some audience members who are like, well, I don't necessarily want to see Jesus acting like Jonathan. And we're going to have to... I mean, one of the reasons I'm doing this conversation with you is to kind of get it out in the open and just go, right, at the end of the day, guys, this is a show. It's not scripture. We say that all the time, because we don't want to be a replacement for the Bible. But this is a show, and it's played by actors, and Jonathan is a flawed human being who is playing Jesus. And one of the things that makes him so effective as Jesus is the humility of being willing to make yourself a broken vessel. And when you're a broken, empty vessel, then that does allow the Spirit to use you even more. That leads me to something I've wanted you and I talk about occasionally, Offset, is your own personal relationship with Christ and how that has grown or changed as you've played this role. Because when I met you five years ago and we were doing The Two Thieves, I wouldn't describe you at nearly as tuned in and close to Christ as you are now. Is it accurate that you're getting closer to Christ through this? Absolutely. In the last couple of years, having played Christ before this specific project, but with the work I've done with you and two other instances, I feel like God sort of set me up to kind of go deeper by putting these projects in my life. I've done a bunch of secular projects, various TV shows and stuff like that, and I do a lot of voiceover work that are not faith-based or faith-friendly, even, some of them. Not that they're anti, but there's just not taking that into account. Completely different kinds of characters. And I think part of it has come out of my own sort of a bit of, I guess, a personal reconversion about a year and a half ago, brought on just through life and the circumstances of life and pain and heartbreak and all sorts of things that break you down, and coming to a point in my life where I literally just decided to just surrender everything. I realized I was at a point where no matter how I tried to control my circumstances, it just wasn't enough. I did everything I was supposed to do. I went above and beyond. I'm a bit of a workaholic, and so I could just keep finding things to do. I had like all these, I was putting all this effort into all this other stuff as well that weren't even related to the industry just to survive, and it wasn't working. And I finally, literally, got to my knees and I said, God, if you want this to work, if I'm doing the right thing, if I'm here doing what I'm supposed to be doing on this planet, I'm in the right place, you got to help me because I can't do this on my own. I've been trying. I've been trying to do everything I think you're telling me to do, and it's not working. So you know what? I just turned it over now. You got to step in and take the reins. And that very day, a couple of things happened that changed my life circumstances and made me realize that, okay, so this is how it's going to be? Okay. Complete and utter surrender? Okay. And since I committed to that, three or four months later, the chosen was confirmed for me. Two months later, we were filming, and I haven't had the same kinds of stress. I haven't had the same kinds of wants. And if I had even remotely similar financial circumstances, I haven't dealt with them in the same way. I no longer worry about any of it. None of it. Because it's not up to me. That's what this project has done for a lot of us, and my story is out there in other videos as well that I've talked about. And I think it sounds like you're saying something similar, which is you come to that point where you realize it's not my job to feed the 5,000. It's only to provide the loaves and the fish. And I mean, it's the same for me. The last year and a half, almost two years, how I handle stress or negativity or whatever is I'm a different human being. And this project has done that to me, and it's done that to you, and it's done that to so many people, our partners on the project, the producers and whatnot. A number of times that they have faced in their life over the last year and a half something significant or pressing, that they have been pressed upon them by the Lord, it's not your job to feed the 5,000. It's only to provide the loaves and fish. And also that God brought the Israelites in the Old Testament to the Red Sea. He brought them to this place of extreme danger, just like how Jesus got the people hungry after three days of preaching, so that the only thing left was a miracle. And that understanding that God is just as much in the suffering or in the pain or in the confusion as he is in the victory is life-altering. And I think it's what's allowed this project to succeed so far is that we're just kind of like, yeah, we don't know why it's working. I just, we're just vessels. Show up. Yeah, we're passengers on the train just like you are, and I think the audience can feel that. So on that note, there was a day on set when we were shooting the, in episode six, all the stuff that happened at Zebedee's house, the healing of the paralytic, which came at the end of you preaching and teaching and sharing with the people. It was five days of shooting in extreme heat, and there was a moment when you were about to shoot the sequence of you preaching to the crowd. And in the script and in the scene visually, we don't see you on screen much. The preaching is mostly in the background because that scene, like a lot of scenes in The Chosen, is less about the miracle. It's less about what Jesus is saying as it is about the response to it. So I wasn't taking that scene that we were about to shoot of you as seriously because it's like, oh, he's not even gonna be on camera much. This is more about the people's reactions. So we're kind of rushing through it, and you stopped me and said, can you please slow down for a second? I need you to know how hard this is for me. And when we talked about that, because I said, why? Why is this hard? And you talked about the weight of preaching. This is the first time in the show that Jesus is going to preach. And I, Jonathan Rumi, do not feel worthy of filling those shoes and compelling and directing a large crowd of people. Can you talk about that day and that moment? Because I think it reflects how you felt a few times of the weight of this part. When I think about it, clearly, I mean, it affects me. There's a part of me that just wants to get it right. It's so important for me to get this right. And I just felt completely out of my element for that scene. Because all of a sudden, now I'm saying these words that Jesus said to these people that are looking at me. And I'm there. And I'm like, what am I doing here? I shouldn't be here. I felt like, I told him, this just feels wrong for the moment. But I know I'm here for a reason. I'm here to say this for a reason. I'm here, and somebody else isn't here. So I have to take that into account and know that God's trusted me to represent his son in this project. And so I can't dishonor that. But the initial weight is just like, wait a minute, what am I saying? I'm supposed to now attempt to look like I'm teaching these people, even though I'm not on camera. To me, it doesn't matter. Your camera could be two miles away. If this scene has to go on, I got to be convincing. I got to attempt to teach these people. And they have to look like they're receiving teaching and instruction and life-altering information, things that they've never heard before. What am I doing here saying this stuff? Do you remember what I said to you? You probably don't, because you were in your own space. But you said, I'm struggling to feel worthy. And I said, me too. And I said, this is the story of this project. And I said, you're not worthy. And neither am I. And that's the whole point, is when we recognize that, and if we can actually embrace that. When I was in Israel last year doing research, and I'm in Magdala, where Mary is from, and I'm at the Wailing Wall, and I'm at the temple. And I was there for my first time. That must have been overwhelming. It was overwhelming, because I knew we were going to be telling the stories that took place here. And my wife would say, how's it going? Or how is it? And I said, it's hitting me. It's hitting me. And I was like, this is, and you just said, for some reason, God has trusted me to portray his son. And I felt like, for some reason, God has chosen me to tell his stories, the stories of his people, in a way that hasn't been done before. And if that's not humbling, that's a major problem. You've got much deeper issues. It should be humbling. And that's why, when you, I think what you were expressing to me on that moment was what I felt in Israel, was, oh yeah, yeah, I can't make you feel better right now. I can't, sorry, I can't help you. If you're feeling unworthy, I got nothing for you, because I'm unworthy too. Take a number. But I think it, I do think it helped, that it's like, yeah, don't try to feel worthy of this, because it's not. You can't. Yeah. And here's the good news, is something that God pressed on my heart very strongly, when I was in Israel, was I felt this very, very strong feeling of, I'm not going to let you screw this up. God wasn't going to let you screw it up. Yeah, yeah. God isn't, like, yes, you've been chosen to do this. And yes, I want you to be faithful, and I want you to listen, and I want you to obey, and I want you to get your sleep, and be healthy, and be kind to others. But I'm not going to let you screw this up, if this is too important. You know, that's, that's why I think I've been able to be as relaxed as I've been, although I still fail every day, and feel the pressure, and feel the responsibility of it. But God's not going to let you, Jonathan, screw this up either. Thank God. Yes, and that's been, that's, that's, that should be comforting. But also, at the same time, my wife reminds me once a week, she's like, when I read the Old Testament, it's not in the low moments that you should be the most scared, it's actually when you're doing the best. Because you look at the kings of the Old Testament who fell, or the leaders of the Israelites, or Moses, or Joshua, I mean, again, Moses didn't see the promised land, you know. God held, God held him to a pretty high standard. And so I think we've got to remember to be humble every day, that that's the point. And we need to feel unworthy every day. Well, I can check that box pretty good. So on that note, feeling the weight of it, I think one of the ways that you and I deal with it is humor. And I'd love to talk about that a little bit, because I'm not sure I do some, maybe not. But to give people a little bit of glimpse behind the curtain of some of our running gags on set. For some reason, you know, I'm fairly confident that God's okay with it. But we have these running gags that Jesus is, can raise the dead, he can heal the sick, but he's horrible with directions. Directions are not his forte. So those who haven't noticed at the end of episode eight, at the end of the credits, there's a little Easter egg of this alt take that we did. So awesome. Yeah. So there's the scene in episode eight where Jesus meets the other disciples at the Southern Fountain. And you even told Nicodemus, meet me at the Southern Fountain. And we're going to, we're going to leave and we're going to leave for our ministry. And you did a take where, where what, what happened in that take? So I thought, wouldn't it be funny if he got there? Because we actually were in this one shot that we were doing, it was just me and Jordan who plays little James. And we were kind of like Giovanni and Giovanni. And then, uh, and then there was nobody else there. Like, I think that the cue wasn't called or the actors hadn't come out yet or something. And I said, wouldn't it be funny? Like if they just didn't show up? No. Then it turns out that Jesus actually told them the wrong fountain, the wrong, what is the wrong, the wrong corner. Yeah. You had said, you had said, so yeah, so you're like, uh, Southern Fountain, right. And, and, and little James, when you guys did it without missing a beat, just goes, no, no, you said the Northern Fountain. And this notion of, I did it again. So we, that became a running gag of almost every scene that involved travel. You were always turning left instead of right. The disciples were always going, it's this way. It's no master. It's yeah. I always turned around. So the, so there's that Jesus can't get directions correct for the life of them. And then also he is, it can't land a punchline. We had because we had you awkward joke. Well, and it came because in the scene with Matthew and the, the, uh, at the feast at Matthew's house at the beginning of episode eight, um, very famous story from the Bible where Jesus is dining with, with tax collectors and sinners. And we have the scene where they're all kind of joking with each other. And they're all saying, oh, I thought the Pharisee would trip on his robe. And, and everyone's laughing. And, oh, uh, uh, looking at the look on your face was priceless. And everyone laughs. And then, and then, uh, Rivka says, I thought I was going to be arrested. And everyone laughs. And you say, yeah, with your luck, you know, that's, that's what would happen. And it was always fun. The actors just wouldn't react at all. Just bombed. It just bombed. At one time, I literally, you can hear me in one of the outtakes laughing off camera because it was every time you tried to say something and we would say, like, why don't you try a different line? Yeah, switch up the ad lib a little bit and try to say something funny. And every time it was just crickets, just crickets. And you're like, I can heal the sick, but I can't land a punchline. God, why couldn't you have given me the ability to tell a joke once? But you got healing. That's all you get. Yeah, but I, for me, that has helped through, through the shoot. Oh, yeah. Has given us like a, like it's, it's helped to free me from the weight of that at times, because if I think too much about it, about some of the scenes that we're about to portray, it's overwhelming. I remember when we were going to shoot the scene at the end of episode one with Mary Magdalene and you, you and Liz and I were all in our separate corners, tears streaming down our faces, like knowing that we were about to do the most important scene in the And it was also, you know, six below zero. But I think for me that the joking has been the constant riffing and the alternate universe that we've created of Jesus as bad with directions and bad with punchlines. And that's helped me. Has it helped you? Yeah, I think, I think for the same reasons that it's helped you. And for me playing specifically Jesus, like, because it can get overwhelming thinking about what it is we're doing to be able to have a very innocuous and gentle outlet. And, and I, you know, I, I picture Jesus like, just kind of like shaking his head, you know, like, like I think he'd appreciate it. And I think he would think it's funny. And, and if I, if I didn't, or if I thought it was offensive or in some way harmful to his image, like I wouldn't do it. But to me, I mean, this is as good natured as any of the other jokes that are written in the show. Well, and that's the thing. I think some of the humor that we've explored off camera has been helpful to inform some of the jokes that we do. And we hear people all the time. The humor of Jesus in the show is one of their favorite parts because, you know, him winking at Barnaby when Barnaby says something good can come from Nazareth and you wink at him and it's like, it's okay. And everybody's like, yeah, yeah. And he's like, that's fine. Yeah. And the, the episode seven or eight, when Simon is saying, you know, it's, you know, what's in my head. And you go, well, everyone knows what's in your head. It doesn't take God's wisdom. See, that's what I mean. You already know anyway. Simon, everyone here knows what you're thinking. Most of the time, it does not take God's wisdom. Those, those kind of bits, I think help, not only do they help alleviate the weight of the show, I think they actually enhance the weight of the show. And sometimes because it makes people more connected to Jesus, which brings me to a very weighty question. Have you thought yet about what's coming in future seasons? You know, we're doing this one season at a time. I know some of our fans are starting to say things like, when I think of where this show is headed, it's almost too much to bear. When I think, now that I've seen Jesus joke, and I've seen Jesus with his mother, and I've seen Jesus with the disciples laughing, and I've seen him dress his wound. When I picture what I know is coming in a few seasons, it's almost too much to even imagine. And I can't imagine how difficult it is going to be to watch that. Have you thought much about the crucifixion? I mean, the few times that it has crossed my mind, I just, I know it's going to be gut wrenching for everyone involved. It's going to be extremely difficult to do, to get through. Yeah, I think it's one of those things that I just choose not to think about at this point, because to really imagine all these relationships that Jesus has with these people in these first eight episodes, and then all of a sudden not having that. And even the prelude to the crucifixion, and the sense of abandonment, and what these people he's breaking bread with now. We give little hints, even in season one, when you're talking to Eden, and she says, you say, it hasn't been easy, or it's not going to be easy. And she says, well, that's not our people's way. And you say, no, it hasn't been, nor will it continue to be. And there's a look on your face that is a bit of a foreshadowing of what's to come. I know that in the scene with Nicodemus, hints of sadness at what's to come, hints of sadness that he isn't going to be there with you on the journey. Again, it's personal with you and Nicodemus, but also hints of what's to come. Again, delivering the most famous verse in the Bible, God so loved the world that he gave his son, and whoever believes in him will not perish. Just little hints of you know what the future holds. But again, you can't play that for five seasons. Every time you meet someone going, I'm going to die soon. Yeah. It's going to be a little bit rough. And I think also, you know, Jesus is somebody that was probably one of the most present people that anybody could ever meet. You know, in order to really know people, there's a certain level of presence that he has to be at all times. And, you know, I think while he, and again, this is my choice, while he will make reference to and predict, I make the choice that he's not spending his time dwelling on the crucifixion at this point, because he's building his ministry now. He's still getting to know these people and seeing how the more immediate future, what positions these people are going to be playing in his ministry, even maybe beyond his death resurrection. And so I can't, I almost, I don't want to allow myself to sort of think that far ahead, you know, but when I need to, I can go there a little bit for the lines that suggest that. But when I have sat and thought about it, I think I may have even said this to you at one point, like, you know, with what we're doing here now, that final season is going to be, it's going to be horrible for people to watch, you know, like it's like getting to know, we were talking about this before, it's like getting to know a friend for years and then all of a sudden watching them go off to die and like willingly and you're like, you're trying to comprehend, well, you're just trying to, you're trying to come to terms with death of a friend after several years. And there's nothing you can do to help. There's nothing you can do and you just got to take it, you know. And so, yeah, that's, yeah, I don't, I really don't even know how to approach that at this point. So I want to talk, we'll close here in a few minutes, but I want to talk about your favorite scenes so far of season one. You know, the majority of the most iconic scenes from Scripture involve Jesus. So you've had a chance now, looking back on season one, we've got, you know, the water to wine, we've got the miracle of the fish, we've got the Shabbat visit, the redeeming of Mary, the Samaritan woman, the calling of Matthew, the call, I mean, it's a laundry list of greatest hits. Do you have a favorite? I think one of my favorite moments was just my entrance because it's such a stark introduction. If you're really paying attention, you can sort of see the fabric of my elbow as I get up off the table in the bar to meet Mary, you know, just the drink, the hand on top of the hand, and then the cut to me looking at her and then back to her and she's like, what's going on? Jesus is just looking at her and he just knows everything about her in that instance and he just said, that's not for you. And like, it's his first line. Yeah, that's not for you. Yeah, and which we know now is has a whole host of meanings as to why that's his first line and it's so beautiful. I think that to me and that scene is one of my favorite scenes because most all of us can relate to some form of redemption in our lives through which God has been a major part, if not the reason for it. You know, I watched the scene still and I recently was recutting my reel, my actor's reel and I put that scene in there and I'm tweaking and I'm fine tuning and I've seen it like 30 times and every time I watch it, it's not and it's not me watching myself, it's me watching this exchange with these two characters in this scene and I still get like goosebumps. I'm like, how is this still happening? And I was, I performed it. Like, I don't understand it. I don't understand. I mean, I just, other than that, it's a divine intervention in this moment on film and it's still so impactful. From the second half of our season here, there were so many great scenes that I enjoyed filming. I think the other, it's hard to choose, but if I had to pick by hairs, it would be the scene of the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman at the well, mostly because of how that and just the joy that she runs off with and what it did to me in that scene, watching her run off with this newfound joy, it just, you can't put a price on that. Just, you know, again, still even thinking about it, it just, it was so beautiful. It was so beautiful to watch what she was doing and to, and Vanessa as an actress, it was just, she handled it so, so beautifully and I just could not help but be affected by her performance. And they say ensemble acting is the highest form of acting. And so when you have those opportunities to be in a place with somebody in a scene and you're just both dropped in and you're just living that moment out and there just happened to be cameras around catching it, it's indescribable. And so what she did and how that made me feel in watching her and how it looks, it's, I think that's probably my second favorite. Well, this last year of my career has been the most impactful and rewarding of my life without a second, a close second, and working with you and doing these scenes with you and exploring Jesus with you in a way, with the goal of introducing an authentic Jesus to the world has been one of the joys of my entire life and I wouldn't want to do it with anybody else, so. Likewise, it's been the reason for, it's been the clarity of my mission doing this with you and I'm honored to be a part of it and honored to call you brother. Yeah, love you brother. Love you bro. Yeah, good to see you. Yeah.