Why the Chinese Regime is Intent on Taking Over the Pacific: Cleo Paskal

from cutting usaid programs to putting Voice of America employees on paid administrative leave the Trump Administration has been aggressively seeking to reduce government spending on International initiatives but some such spending May yet have value if you're a little newspaper in Solomon Islands and you want to cover what China is doing into your in your country um it it's nearly impossible your advertising can get cut you're discredited so Cary Lake talked about for example setting up a dedicated unit within vaa to uh investigate Chinese uh illegal coercive aggressive and deceptive activity throughout the region and vaa is very well placed to connect those dots Cleo Pascal senior fellow at the foundation for defense of democracies FDD breaks down how certain us measures in the Pacific are vital to US National Security interests to deter increasing Chinese encroachment in the region the pla studied very carefully the Pacific War you see it targets the same locations that where there were bases or where there were runways in the Solomon Islands the Chinese are now rebuilding Henderson Airfield which so many marines died to protect um they're putting in ports they're putting in Huawei Towers this is American thought leaders and I'm Yan Kell Cleo Pascal such a pleasure to have you back on American thought leaders always great to be here thank you for having me so a lot of unusual things have been happening um with respect to different tools of US foreign policy usaid is being cut down dramatically um most recently vaa Voice of America and radio free Asia RFA are being reduced down to their kind of statutory spending requirements um I see a lot of narrative out there that basically you know the AXS is being taken to uh US foreign policy initiatives what's your take it's a a complicated and evolving picture um the there there are few so I'm looking mostly at the at the Pacific region uh but just to say that there are entire countries like India that are very happy to see usaid go because they they think that some of that activity was targeted at their leadership so the the sense that all countries are uh Angry and heartbroken about it is is not accurate but there are some where this act where this is going to hurt um and so this um kind of hammer versus scalpel the is is going to be very important figuring out what works and what doesn't is going to be very important and I'm hoping that what we're in is a transition phase where um there there's going there is this pause or whatever it is and then there's going to be a Readjustment that's more in line with uh the the sort of things that uh is are good for us power but I'll just for an example because you talked about the media stuff uh there's been some excellent reporting in the Pacific coming out of vaa there have also been some very peculiar pieces coming out of Radio free Asia around for example palao we're using specific examples to get an idea of of what it means palao has a a huge number of challenges that it is countering the the president of poao gave the national security coordinator the right to go after um people uh who are overstaying their visa misusing their visas in some cases almost literally breaking down doors uh uh rolling up Chinese illegal gambling organizations getting all sorts of very dubious people out of the country but Radio free Asia chose to write during that the same period about unexploded World War II bombs being a huge problem in other places and not cover that and not cover that right yeah no now there there are some un exploited World War II bombs but in terms of what's important as a story coming out of palao is not accurately being reflected there are other other stories about you know teenagers in palao anti- us militarization but there aren't stories um about how at the inauguration of the president of palao the foreign minister of Japan sat next to the foreign minister of Taiwan in a show of solidarity which is a huge signaling geopolitical signaling so the coverage has been unusual in in certain locations and I'm not saying this about those particular stories but as you know there have been a lot of concerns about penetration targeted penetration into those into those reporting agencies by people who have interests that are not aligned with us interests uh so it's uh a reassessment is not uh a bad thing um we'll see what happens during the rebuilding phase I guess the idea is I mean I'm thinking about Ted lian's work you know he's he's been arguing that there needs to be reform in these agencies for a very long time but now he's also saying you know this this he thinks what's happened is too going too far yeah and and we'll we'll see what happens next so Cary Lake uh uh initially talked about for example setting up a dedicated unit within vaa to uh investigate Chinese uh illegal coercive aggressive and deceptive activity throughout the region and vaa is very well placed to connect those dots it's hard for you know better than anybody when you cover the CCP your advertising can get cut you know you're you're marginalized you're discredited um so imagine if you're a little newspaper in Solomon Islands and you want to cover what China is doing into your in your country um it's it's nearly impossible and I'm using that as a specific case because there there was a a there is a very good news organization Solomon Islands called in-depth Solomon that was be being funded in part through usaid cut sort of how do you exp like it was going to other agencies and that was going to that um and they're having a hard time now you they they can't do that sort of coverage they're not going to be able to get local advertising to support themselves so they were doing what basically vaa should have been doing anyway but they were doing it on the ground um in in their in their own voice and with Incredible courage and uh some of those journalists have now been laid off and what typically happens in those situations is the pro PRC government offers them a job Within the government come and do uh marketing for us or come and do PR for us and you've got a journalist who has a family um you know they their parents might need medical care their kids need school fees and the the source of funding has been cut off they need to survive so you get they get uh diverted into the system they they know it doesn't make them feel good but they need to be a good parent they need to be a good child and this is this is their only option for for doing it so that's an example of where the cuts are directly hurting Chinese coverage for example broke a story about how the minister of police and Solomon had a bank account with a Chinese National and the son of the former prime minister of Solomon which is the one that switched the country from Taiwan to China in Singapore that is an incredibly important piece of information that changes the way you look at policing for example in Solomon Islands it wouldn't have happened if if they wouldn't have been getting funding from the US now there have been different sorts of funding um to achieve very specific political goals and that's the problem it sort of all became kind of in meshed and um hopefully this is a process of disaggregating uh and figuring out what is supporting Freedom around the world uh both with usad and with vaa and creating structures that are going to reinforce that go for going forward MH well and also you know that one of the things that was brought to my attention by Michael Pack who had ran us AGM for a bit uh under Trump 45 was just like a lot of really bizarre anti-American content right which makes no sense obviously in such media yeah and and and what happened to him is uh uh you know he he was kept out of office for he was appointed and he was kept out of office for years right they they wouldn't approve they wouldn't put him in and so I think that part of this is a reaction to uh to that perceived overreach on the other side you know the American people voted for Change and you're not going to let us do it so we're going to get rid of the organizations that are blocking that if you're going to continue to maintain control over them and not reflect the of the voter this is sort of the the Trump Administration line then then why should we continue to support you you're not doing what the voters voted for it's described sometimes as the deconstruction of the administrative state but the question is you know is there also uh sort of a a a a reappropriation of the mechanisms of state that they think are under this under the executive um as opposed to this unelected bureaucracy that's the that's the whole language around right this is really a fight about what government is and who controls government and the role of the voter versus the role of the bureaucracy and it's spinning out into all areas including obviously this I remember president Trump you you alluded to this earlier right it it was uh scapel not Hatchet if I believe is the is the term so that's kind of what you're you're you're hoping for here I guess well uh yeah and then after the scalpel you do some suturing and you get some antibiotics and then you get up and running right so this is we're in this this cutting phase but that the question is that okay then what you know have you if you've excised what you consider to be the cancer right are you then going to um put it put the body politic in a position to be able to get up and running again um or are you going to let it bleed out I mean that to use the sort of for well I mean there's arguments about this right that is there a place for us media right is there a place for us media is their value to those Us Media and you know which is you know some people would just say this that's just us propaganda why should we have that so uh I think that uh what they're terming as propaganda if it's done right if you're just telling the American story truthfully then that is incredibly powerful and uh gives hope to a lot of people right so it's not about and this is and this is actually a lot of what it was originally what was founded during the Cold War was to get out the American story arts and all this is you know it's not you know the US is perfect or and in fact when talking about how the how the the the working towards a more perfect union the imperfections involved in that is also part of uh the inspir IR ing truth you know even the US isn't perfect but it has these structures in place that the founders put in these checks and balances and so maybe why doesn't our country have that you know how can we work through some of our problem but second of all it cuts through a lot of the propaganda that you're getting the anti-American propaganda that you're getting from uh the united front organizations for example or things like that we I'm talking about sort of the Free World if Canada's um have something that the CCP doesn't which is we have truth on our side so the more that you talk about how things really are um I the the better and it gives hope to honest people in other places that there is another model than this just continuous uh degradation of the institutions trending towards uh a CCP ification where you can't trust your Judiciary you can't trust your police you can't trust you know the us is going through some internal issues like that now but the fact that it's all out in the open gives you hope Cleo one quick sec we're going to take a break and we'll be right back folks and we're back with Cleo Pascal senior fellow at the foundation for defense of democracies FDD so talking about the Pacific and Doge Cuts as well I can't help thinking back a little while uh when it was almost the case that the compact countries the three uh countries in the Pacific I'm going to get you to tell me all about them that play an incredibly important part of the US's security posture in the Pacific almost were defunded right almost were're in the process of defunding and so I was thinking about Doge and how you know it's already been said that there's been certain things that have been cut that shouldn't have had some things have been brought back right so maybe let's talk about you know that whole realm like because this is something we wouldn't we want wouldn't want to see that same scenario happen again probably right right so just very briefly the compact countries are palao Federated States of Micronesia and Marshall Islands and uh the compact refers to a very unique agreement made between each of those countries and the United States at the end of the Cold War um they are this this Zone goes across the center of the Pacific in the 20s and 30s so the US had Guam and the Philippines along the coast but Japan controlled the center of the Pacific these countries that are now Pala feder states of amesia Marshall Islands and the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana so sipan tinan that whole Zone was uh controlled by the Japanese and Japan uh did you know civil military Fusion in the middle and when it hit Pearl Harbor it very quickly took the Philippines and Guam and it cut the us off at ha um after 100,000 Americans died liberating those islands so these are so palao is the Battle of pelo um feder States of Micronesia is truck Lagoon um Marshal islands is quadulan after the sort of fought and died across that whole area after the end of World War II they said we're not going to do this again and a lot of the people who went to Congress had fought in that war and so the question was and this is a perennial question for the us because the US is actually not a comfortable colonial power it it it's there there's elements in Congress who cons not only isolationist definitely not comfortable with colonialism so how do you make sure that the center of the Pacific isn't a threat to you while not being a colonial power and the way that they threaded that needle was they set up the Congress of Micronesia where Representatives came from all across that region and the end result was that what's now the Commonwealth of Northern maranas which is sipan and tinian and some other Islands voted to join the United States and they became part of the United States and those three the other three countries voted to go independent but they signed this compact with the US the compact ties the countries together so people in those countries they're independent they have their own citizenship they have their own passport but they can live and work in the US they have the US Postal Service as domestic male they have the support of the of the FAA they have all sorts of federal government services that are normally only seen in the US just for these three countries so that's how the needle was threaded because along with that came us strategic denial so the US can say no other militaries can operate here and we can base here if necessary so it's a it's a very uh unique elegant solution that uh was born out of blood and suffering of those Pacific Islanders and of the the men and almost all men who went into Congress to create this deal um what the issue with Doge uh is there's very little awareness of this you're getting these um these machete cuts across the systems it's not clear if they know how this is going to affect those relationship so for example the post office right that's exactly what I was thinking yeah yeah the discussion is you know okay cuts the post office the post office hates having to service the compact States because they lose money right so if if there isn't awareness but they've been funded by Congress to do it but if there isn't awareness of this relationship then it might look like something that's that's easy to cut and right because there because there's this awareness of this broader deal right that the US gets this you know massive security perimeter yeah right yeah and in response for paying for this Stu yeah and you don't want to end up like we did in the in the late 30s where you've got these Americans or American territory sitting out on the edge of Asia so Guam and the Commonwealth under the Marianas and nothing in the middle because the the pla studied Toshi yoshihara did a very good study on this studied very carefully the Pacific War and when you see when it goes into a place like solivan Islands you see it targets the same locations that where there were bases or where there were runways and in the Solomon Islands the Chinese are now rebuilding Henderson Airfield which so many marines died to protect um they're putting in ports they're putting in Huawei Towers you know they're they're getting through political Warfare um and a a an imp placement that has the potential to be switched very quickly to uh from comodity to strategic asset and they're trying to do that in these three countries two of them recognize Taiwan so they have an added layer of Defense but uh you know they they're still trying to do things like push in Chinese tourists they did this in palao build up the economy pull the tourists and say if you don't do recognize Taiwan then uh you know we're we're going to continue with this crashing of your economy that's also why for example um there there's they're very happy to let Chinese organized crime operate in these locations because it weakens governance it makes it it increases corruption and it it makes it easier for the Chinese to uh exert political leverage and so very briefly as strategic denial can you define that for me sure so that means that the US can block the militaries of other countries from operating in that region so that whole Center Zone with pal martial Island feder States of Micronesia the US can say we don't want Chinese warships pulling into port for example so that's the more important element the Strategic denial element than the uh you know than the sort of implacement element um keeping the area clean of aggressive foreign militaries and allowing that ability to freely move back and forth across across the region the if I if I may the problem with that in a Chinese context is they use non-military uh ships in a military capacity so their fishing fleet can actually be just as destructive for the security of a country um as one of their warships I would argue for the expansion of the definition of defense and security of the compacts of free association well beyond kinetic Warfare so that includes these unrestricted Warfare elements that we're seeing um the the Chinese uh employ in the area so I would say bribery going after corruption getting rid of those Chinese organized crime gangs that do the the the sort of foot soldier work of some of the CCP uh infiltration activities that should all be considered going after or being the responsibility the US has to secure the defense and security of the compact States well Cleo this has been another fascinating discussion I always learned so much when I speak with you uh any final thought as we finish I I think that a good chunk of what we're talking about now may be out of date in three months things are moving so quickly um and I'm hoping that discussions like these uh that that can in inform the debate which you do so well um make sure that uh when the scalpel is applied it doesn't Nick an artery MH well cleop pasc it's such a pleasure to have had you on thank you always always great to see you thank you all for joining Cleo Pascal and me on this episode of American thought leaders I'm your host Yan Kell [Music]