Mind and Matter Are Not Two Separate Things

Sanmati, hello. Hi Rupert, nice to see you. Nice to see you. My question is like, is the matter vibrating frequencies higher than the mind vibrating frequency? Sorry, is the? Matter vibrating frequency is higher than the mind vibrating frequency and that's what you call as a God's infinite mind? Sanmati, it's not really that matter is a higher or lower frequency than mind. It is rather that matter is what the activity of mind looks like from a localized point of view. So mind and matter are not two separate things. Matter is the appearance of mind. Yeah, but that's initial vibrating, there is a consciousness vibrating. So consciousness vibrate, infinite consciousness vibrates, that's what I call mind. That the movement of consciousness or the activity or vibration of consciousness is what I call mind. On the inside, we experience that as thoughts and feelings. On the outside, we perceive it as the world. But it's the same activity on the inside, it's experienced, it's the same vibration of consciousness. On the inside, it's experienced as thoughts and feelings. On the outside, it's experienced as the world. So it appears as matter from our localized perspective. But what we are really looking at is not matter, it's the appearance of consciousness's activity. Yeah, I mean, that's what earlier you said, that is a God's infinite mind. That is the first initial vibration, right? It's not exactly the matter, the way when we look through the localization, that same vibration looks like matter. That's right. Sanmati, remember the dream analogy, Mary falls asleep in London, she dreams these Jane on the streets of Paris. From Jane's point of view, Jane thinks she sees matter. She sees houses and cars and trees. She thinks they're made out of matter. What are they really? They're the activity of Mary's mind. So from Mary's point of view, the streets of Paris are made out of mind. From Jane's limited point of view, it appears as matter. But the world that appears to us is really made out of consciousness. It only appears to be made out of matter from our limited and localized point of view. Yeah, I mean, before the localization, but consciousness is already vibrating with certain frequency, right? That's right. Yes. Consciousness. Yes. So exactly. I'm not suggesting, I know you understand this, I'm not suggesting that all there is to the world is our knowledge of it, our perception of it. The world has a reality, infinite consciousness, that is prior to and independent of its being perceived by a finite mind. But when it is perceived by a finite mind, the finite mind colors the world, the reality of the world, infinite consciousness, with its own limitations. So the mind half perceives the world, the reality of the world, and it half creates the world, creates its appearance, it perceives its reality, it creates its appearance. Yeah, I mean, what my question is like, in the initial vibration, what you call as God's infinite mind, when perceived through the localized mind, it appears as a matter. But the localized mind I'm talking about is the, it's more another different vibrating frequency. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. But yes. So we could say that the world is infinite consciousness vibrating at one frequency, the finite mind is the same infinite consciousness, but vibrating at a different frequency. Yes. So that frequency is higher than the... Not higher. No, no, not higher. Not higher. Because don't forget, your mind, which is all thoughts and feelings, appears to me as a body. When I look at you, I don't see your thoughts and feelings, I see the appearance of your thoughts and feelings, which is your body. So what appears to me as your body is experienced by you as mind, as thoughts and feelings, they're the same thing. So we can't say that the appearance of your body is a higher or lower frequency than your mind. It's the same thing. Yeah, I mean, body is the same thing. And the world is the same thing. It's not higher or lower. It's the same thing. Yes, I was talking about the localization that subtle mind means, as you said, thoughts and feelings. I don't think you can put them in a hierarchy, Sanmati. Oh, okay. Okay, because in certain webinars, you said that mind, what energy is very subtle, very subtler than the very subtle object. There are some frequencies of infinite consciousness, the activity of infinite consciousness, that are not registered by a human mind. The human mind doesn't perceive all there is to perceive of the universe. We only perceive a certain fraction of it. But those parts of the activity of infinite consciousness that are not perceived by the finite mind are not necessarily higher or lower. It's just different frequency, that's all you can say, right? Yes, yes. It's not necessary to arrange them in a hierarchy. Okay. So, and the dream state also, you call as localization, can we call as localization in the dream state? Yes, the dream state is the internal activity of a single finite mind. Whereas the universe is the dream of infinite mind or consciousness. Yeah. So, we can call the dream state also a localization of the infinite mind, right? Ultimately, yes. Ultimately, the only substance present in our nighttime dream is pure knowing, pure consciousness. Yes. But actually, there is no exactly, we cannot say like, there is a localization. It is just a… Exactly. Sanmati, in the ultimate analysis, there is just one. There's no differentiation from the point of view of the one. There's just itself. And everything is an appearance of that. The world, our thoughts and feelings, the dreams we have at night, a near-death experience, the experience of pain, these are all manifestations of the single, homogeneous, indivisible, infinite, whole or one. Yeah. So, again, it looks like another concept, localization. The localization, there's no real localization. Because let's say we were to suggest that the finite, as I indeed do, sometimes say that the finite mind is a localization of infinite consciousness. And now, if we were to ask, okay, well, what is it that separates the finite mind from the infinite consciousness in which it is immersed? Well, nothing separates it. Because what is there in the one which could create a boundary between the finite mind and infinite consciousness? So, even a localization, it's not quite accurate, Sanmati. Yeah. Only thoughts and feelings are different. Means one infinite consciousness having different types of thoughts and feelings. That's all I felt. That's true. But even thoughts and feelings, there are no discrete entities called thoughts and feelings. Thoughts and feelings are like waves and currents in the ocean. You can't pick a wave off the ocean, or you can't pick a current out of the ocean and say, look, here is a current. There's no border to the current. So, even in the ultimate analysis, there are no thoughts and feelings, no discrete entities. But if we were to be accurate, Sanmati, we'd just remain silent. We'd never say anything. So, when we talk about the individual mind, localization, thoughts and feelings, these are all provisional concepts that are really concessions to the individual's belief in itself as an individual. Valid concessions, but they don't refer to things that are real in their own right. They're just provisional. Provisional names for certain aspects of experience from the perspective of the individual. Valid, but ultimately not true.