The Fight for UFO Truth: Danny Sheehan on Lou Elizondo

We ended up working with different people and they drafted this 64-page law that would mandate who would have any information about the UFOs and about this non-human intelligence. All six U.S. military services, all 18 United States intelligence agencies, all 32 of the United States Defense Department agencies, any of the private aerospace corporations that had been put into possession of any of the technology, had to turn it over to Congress and tell them about it. Our Bay Area Innovator today is Danny Sheehan, a constitutional attorney, public interest lawyer, and one of the few legal experts to make UFO disclosure a cornerstone of his career. From briefing President Carter's White House, to advising congressional efforts on declassification, and now representing Louis Alisandro, a former military counterintelligence officer and prominent UFO whistleblower, Danny has spent decades at the intersection of law, government, and the unexplained. In this episode, he offers rare insight on the latest developments in UFO disclosure, the challenges that remain, and why the conversation has entered the mainstream. This is Bay Area Innovators, and I'm your host, Stephen Svers. Danny, welcome to our program. Terrific. I appreciate being here, Stephen. Well, great to have you here. You have an amazing career. You've been involved with cases starting with the Watergate, Karen Wilk Silkwood case, the Pentagon Papers. And now lately, you've been involved with UFOs or UAPs, and you've been representing Louis Alisandro, and you recently went to a congressional hearing in Washington, D.C. So, please tell us first, what specifically are you representing Louis, who Louis Alisandro is first, and your representation. Louis Alisandro was originally brought on in the United States Pentagon. He's a lifelong military intelligence officer, basically counterintelligence. And he was brought on to be the counterintelligence chief for a special program in the Pentagon. It was called the Advanced Weapons Special Access Program. And it turns out, when he was brought on to be the chief of security for that and counterintelligence, he was surprised to discover that they were investigating UFOs. As part of the program. An integral part of the program is that he had never thought much about UFOs. He comes out of Miami. He's out of that Cuban refugee community that fled from Cuba back in 1959 when Fidel Castro took over. And a lot of the people fled, and they came up to southern Florida and Miami. And a lot of them were trying to get rid of the communist government in Cuba. And so, his father was a major person in the 2506 Brigade. It was a group of paramilitary people who were actually going into Cuba to try to disrupt their activities. And so, he came out of that whole milieu and went into the United States military and became an intelligence officer, then a counterintelligence officer. So, he was perfectly trained when it came time for them to decide at the Pentagon that they were going to secretly investigate the UFO phenomenon and try to back engineer some of the technology of it. Of course, his immediate question was, how do you know what the technology is? And then they revealed to him the fact that they had in their possession one or more non-human origin extraterrestrial spacecraft, as well as the bodies of the occupants that had been recovered, and they'd been DNA tested to be non-human. Were those biological bodies? Biological bodies, yes. So, he was completely thunderstruck by this reality. He didn't know anything about it to begin with. And so, he began to ask more and more questions about it. And they said, it's not your job to ask more questions about it. It's your job to protect the program so that nobody finds out about it. And so, he got frustrated and he kept on pressing, saying, look, if I'm going to be providing security for the information, I have to know what it is we know. And they said, no, you don't have any need to know. And he kept pushing and got more and more frustrated. And finally, he realized that he was being lied to by people deep inside the intelligence community and deep inside the Defense Department and the Science and Technology Division of the CIA. And so, he wrote a letter to the Secretary of Defense because he technically was working for the Secretary of Defense, and he wrote a letter to General Maddox complaining about the fact that he was being blocked. And they blocked the letter, wouldn't let the letter go to him. So, he was planning to resign. What was the timeframe? This was 2017. But he had been on in the program since 2007. He'd been there for 10 years. And so, he decided he was going to resign in protest. And on the way out, what he did is he reached out to Christopher Mellon, who was the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, both for the Clinton administration and for the W. Bush administration, a very well-placed guy, and complained to him about being blocked on this information. And the two of them moved together to get declassified. The gun camera, the F-18 Super Hornet gun camera video footage of some UFOs, or what they characterized as a UFO, because they had never seen anything like it. They couldn't understand how it moved, but they were taking video footage of it. And so, he ended up getting a hold of, he had seen those videos. So, he brought them to the United States Defense Department Office of Pre-Publication Security Review and got them cleared. And so, then he resigned and went with Christopher Mellon to the New York Times and brought the information to the New York Times. And they published it. And that's a big case. That's a big deal. A big deal. On December 17th of 2017, there it was, a front page article in the Sunday New York Times, along with videotapes, links to videotapes, so people could see the things. There's a whole fleet of them. Look on the ASA. They're all going against the wind. The wind's 120 knots. That's a whole thing, dude. And that sort of started this entire new era of saying, oh, look, here's an inside the Pentagon, two major officials inside the US Pentagon coming forward and saying that we're in possession of UFOs and the bodies. And so, the New York Times published the stuff all about the technology because they were trying to back engineer the technology for a weapons system. And the New York Times reported that. Now, what happened is the Defense Department started denying that there was any such program, started denying that they knew who Luis Elizondo was. They'd never heard of him. They had no record of him even being in the military. He got really upset. And he reached out to me and called me and asked me to become his attorney, to file a complaint with the Inspector General of the United States Defense Department, complaining not only about the fact that they were lying about him, but that they were lying to Congress in denying the program, saying no such program exists. We don't know what you're talking about. We're not going to give you any information about any such program because it doesn't exist. And they were lying to the American public. And he knew that they were prohibited. The Defense Department and the Central Intelligence Agency are prohibited by law from engaging in propaganda against the American people to get them to support one law or another that they're not allowed to do that because they have such a powerful institution put together to try to deceive foreign countries. Now, let me ask you this. If this information is deemed classified by these organizations or top confidential or whatever, do they then, can they use that excuse to not release it to the public because it's classified? This Bay Area Innovators episode is sponsored by Peter Cassara Clothiers, an Italian menswear store that brings timeless European style with a modern edge to Sunnyvale and the Bay Area for over 50 years. From top Italian suits and shoes, the exclusive Tami Bahama line, they've got your look covered. Check out their website at petercassaraclothiers.com to find out more. And now back to our interview. But they can't refuse to disclose it to Congress. That was the constitutional problem. I mean, you would assume in a democracy that they shouldn't be allowed to lie to the people. But because of the national security state policies that have developed since 1945, actually since 1947, when they passed the National Security Act of 1947 to set up the Central Intelligence Agency, and they all decided in the military that they were kind of at war with communism around the whole world. And so they began to develop a whole set of national security state activities that they were engaging in outside of the country, and that they would direct those activities toward any country that they thought was either communist or in danger of becoming communist. And so they developed all of those activities. But just as people had warned at the very beginning, if you set up such an institution as a national security state bureaucracy, when it comes time, they are going to start directing those activities inside the country. It's one of the major dangers of having a military. If it's not really respectful for the restrictions on what they can do, they will turn their efforts inside the country. And that's a warning, I think, Eisenhower had that warning, right? Yes, yes. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. And he referred to them as the military-industrial complex, because it turns out that the national security state people, between 1947 and 1952, when Eisenhower came in, they had developed this kind of cozy relationship, because the national security state people were constantly going to these private aerospace corporations to get them to secretly build spy equipment and spycraft and different kinds of military machinery. I guess normal human beings are like that, and they develop friendships and relationships. And very importantly, the private aerospace corporations would hire people out of the United States military and out of the intelligence community who'd been working with them. And so then they would go and join the private corporation, and they had all their friends inside the military and intelligence community, and they would use that friendship to get special contracts for them. And so this whole military intelligence complex evolved, and Lou Elizondo ran right into it from inside. So let's go back now and talk about what happened. So you represent him, and then you had a complaint to the inspector. Yes. And what happened? Well, we went to see the inspector general, right over next door to the Pentagon. They have a new great big building, all for the inspector general. And we went in and Lou Elizondo started telling the inspector general all the details of what he had discovered. And step by step, the inspector general became convinced that Lou was telling him the truth. And Lou brought in all of his credentials and all of his official paperwork and showed them that he was a full scale employee of the Defense Department, showed him his entire historical record. And so it became clear to the inspector general that Luis Elizondo was telling him the truth. And so then he began asking, is it really true that UFOs are real? And Lou was explaining to them, yes, they are real. And the guy would say, you know, and they're not Chinese? No, they're not Russian? No, they're not from like India? No, they're not from any country that we can tell at all. And then the inspector general said, well, are they ours? Is there some super secret military program going on? And Lou said, no, these particular things are not part of our program. And he said, I know what we have, and this is not it. So these are something else. And so he would ask, the inspector general said, well, where are they from? And Lou would say, that's what I was trying to find out. I was trying to find out where these are coming from. Because as a counterintelligence officer, he has to know who he's dealing with to try to protect the information from them. And that's what got him so frustrated. And so when the inspector general said, well, what do you think, where do you think they're from? And he said, well, most of the people that I've worked with inside the government with top secret clearances, they believe they're extraterrestrial. The inspector general said, extraterrestrial? You mean like from some other planet? And Lou would say, actually from some other star system. So that they not only have interplanetary travel capacity, but interstellar, which would indicate superluminal speed. Or some other form of transport. But they link right onto superluminal travel. It has to be linear. Because they're just thinking from what little they know, if you were to expand it a little bit, what's it look like? Well, this is way beyond that. And Lou started telling him that. And so the inspector general started inviting other staff people to come into the meeting who had the proper clearances. And then Lou and I both spent time telling them. And I've been working for 45 years in this area. So I knew a bunch of additional stuff that Lou didn't even know. So I was sharing the information with them as well. And because of that, Lou was insisting, because I was working as his lawyer and counseling him, that what he should demand is that the Defense Department put forward a set of protocols protecting people inside the military to be able to report having encounters with UFOs and not get retaliated against. Because historically, it turns out, and we've now proven this, the United States Defense Department and the Central Intelligence Agency, their operations directorate, had developed a secret plan of destroying anybody who tries to report that they're encountering UFOs, because they want to keep it such a secret, because they're using it to back engineer the technology to make a weapons system. So they rationalize in their mind that they're protecting an ultra-secret weapons system. And so therefore, they think it's okay to tell everybody that the person is a liar and to tell people that they're mentally ill. That was one of the big ones. They would actually demand any military officer who wanted to insist upon filing a UFO encounter complaint, that they go get a psychiatric exam. And that's how I ended up getting contacted by Dr. John Mack at Harvard, who was the head of the Harvard Medical School Psychiatric Clinic, because that's where some of the high-ranking officers were sent to get their psychiatric exam. So he had direct knowledge, he would see them coming. Yeah, he talked right to them, and they would explain exactly what they had seen. And they seemed perfectly normal. Well, he said these people are totally within the normal parameters of normal psychiatric health, and yet they keep insisting upon telling these stories. And so John ended up writing a book about it, and then got dragged up in front of a faculty committee at Harvard University, challenging him for writing a book about such a controversial issue. And they were chastising him and trying to get him to not talk about it anymore. And so he contacted me, because he knew of me. And I graduated from Harvard College and Harvard Law School. I'd gone to the Harvard Divinity School to do my master's work and was rolled over into the Ph.D. program. And that's where I'd gotten recruited to go become chief counsel for the United States Jesuit Order in their social ministry office in Washington, D.C., which is their public policy office. So John contacted me to represent him. And so I got to, John introduced me to all these people that he had interviewed. So I got to meet all the people. So where are we now with Lou Elizondo? How far did it get into the congressional hearing? How much did he disclose? And what's next? Now, Lou has, of course, met with members of the Senate Intelligence Committee, their staff people, and some of the senators. This is just last week? No, no. He started meeting with them right when I was representing him. What I said to him is, I said, look, we need to talk to the people in the Senate and in the House who have a legal right, a constitutional obligation to oversee these programs. And so that what you should do is you should reach out to them. And I said, I'm legally advising you that you're perfectly authorized to tell people in the Senate Intelligence Committee who have the adequate security clearances, you can tell them exactly what it is that you found out. Then I and others would recommend legislation, that they pass legislation to get control over the program. And that's what we did. We ended up working with different people and they drafted this 64-page law that would mandate that all of the people inside our US military, sir, all six US military services, all 18 United States intelligence agencies, all 32 of the United States Defense Department agencies who would have any information about the UFOs and about this non-human intelligence that is responsible for them, and any of the private aerospace corporations that have been put into possession of any of the technology, had to turn it over to Congress and tell them about it. And so this got passed by the United States Senate back in 2023. And it went over to the House of Representatives because they have to get both houses to approve. And it went over to the House of Representatives and the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Michael Turner, turns out to come from the congressional district in Ohio, where the Wright-Patterson Air Force base is. It's the biggest Air Force base in the country. And it turns out that's where some of the UFOs are. And that's where the aerospace corporations are trying to back engineer some of them. So all those people reached out to him and got him to refuse to allow this Senate bill to get put on the floor for a vote. But we started putting pressure on around the country. Working with Lou Elizondo, we set up a thing called the New Paradigm Institute. It's a 501c3 public interest, tax-exempt, tax-deductible public education organization. And we started reaching out to people in all 435 congressional districts and all 50 states to their United States senators and getting them to write letters to their congresspeople saying, you can't stop this bill. You've got to put this bill into the House side. And finally, we coerced Turner, Michael Turner, to agree to 23 pages, 23 pages out of the 64 pages. So it's about like a third of it. We got in and we got it passed by the House and the Senate. Very importantly, this was passed on December 22nd of 2023. And it orders all the military services, all the intelligence agencies, all the defense department people to gather all of the information together to get it all organized and get it put into digital format and with a searchable index and get it prepared to turn over to the National Archives so Congress can see it. So has that happened? Yes. That has happened. And so the date on which that is now due for them to turn it over to the archives is September 30th. At the end of September, all of these agencies are required to turn all that information over. So that's an extraordinarily important moment because at that point, the members of Congress who have the adequate security clearances are going to be able to see it for the first time. And they'll have official, internal, top secret classified documents showing what's going on. Now, do you foresee any kind of loopholes for them not to reveal this information? Yes. Because there is in the bill, they put in things that if in fact any single piece of information, the President of the United States himself wants to get it postponed from public release, he can do that. He can write the memo, but he has to write up an explanation for it. Both a classified explanation that the people in the Senate and in the House can read that but also a public explanation for why a particular piece of information, which he won't go into detail about, has to be postponed. But the law requires that it be eventually made public, even if it's not done immediately. But the other stuff, and this is extremely important, any piece of information that is 25 years old or more has to be revealed to the public. No matter what? Unless the President intervenes in that one. So that you have all the information that needs to go into the archives, unless the President excludes a particular piece, so that the Congress can't even see it. But the other stuff that's 25 years old or more has to be revealed to the public immediately, unless the President intervenes. So there's a big event coming up here on September 30th. And so our New Paradigm Institute has set up a national television program that we're going to be doing on October 20th called Global Disclosure Day. We are thrilled to announce the first ever Global Disclosure Day on October 20th, a historic event that brings together citizens for disclosure groups from 43 states and around the world for a unified call for transparency. And what we're going to do is look at whatever information has been publicly released, and then explain it to everybody. Because a lot of people doing all their regular jobs and running around in their normal life, and including by that time football season, where the guys aren't paying much attention to anything except football, that will want to break into their consciousness and say, look, let us explain this has happened on September 30th. Here's the information that's been released. And we can explain it to you. And what the background of all this is, because we're familiar with a lot of it already. And if they don't do it, we'll talk about that and say, this is outrageous. They've been ordered by Congress to turn this over. And if they haven't done it, then you all have to mobilize and write letters to your congressmen and senators and get them to make them turn the rest of it over. So that's the dynamic that's going on right now. And it's in that context that we're having additional public hearings that have actually gone in front of a two to three major hearings in front of the House Oversight Committee. There's a House Oversight Committee has held three hearings, the middle one in July of 2023, David Grush testified. And David Grush, who's a GS-15, which is sort of the rank of a full colonel, basically, he came out of the National Reconnaissance Office, and the Global Aerospace Intelligence Center. Okay, so he's a very high up guy. And he came in front of the Congress and testified saying, look, I've spent years investigating all of this. I've talked to over 40 people who have firsthand knowledge about the program. And I'm telling you, that this is real, that our government is in possession of one or more non-human origin, extraterrestrial spacecraft, and the bodies of the occupants that have been tested and proven to be non-human. Now, you would think that that kind of testimony would be what science fiction movies are all about. All of a sudden, bingo, you know, it's on the front page of every place. And all of a sudden, everybody would go, whoa, look at this. But because the Defense Department and the intelligence community have been so successful in propagandizing everybody into thinking that anybody who believes in UFOs are mentally ill. And there's this huge stigma that they have attached to the whole UFO issue as part of their cover-up. Let me just tell you some criticism I heard about David Grush's testimony is that he directly hasn't seen these things. No, that's right. He's investigated it, and he's talked to over 40 people who have direct firsthand knowledge. And he said, I can come before you and tell you that I am convinced based on my interviews that it's true. And it's absolutely right that it's not him saying I've laid my hands on them. But Lou Elizondo has. And Lou Elizondo also came and testified later. This is last year, like November 13th of last year, 2024. He came in front of the House Oversight Committee, and he said that he knows to his own personal knowledge that we have these crap and these bodies. And then Congressman Eric Burleson from Arkansas was on the panel, the House Oversight Committee, and he said, oh, Mr. Elizondo, he said, if you and I could get in a SCIF, this classified room where they got it all blocked off so there can't be any electronic eavesdropping or anything, if we could get in that room, because we both got the proper clearances, would you be able to convey to me the direct source of your knowledge? Have you put your hands on them? Have you been in the room with them? Where was it? When was it? Would you be able to give me that information? And Lou Elizondo said, no, no, that would be above my level. There'd have to be other people. The Congressman was like, who are these other people? He said, I'm not at liberty to say. And he said, but they're the gatekeepers. So the question is, who are these gatekeepers? If people in the Pentagon don't know about it, and they're being lied to about it, who are these gatekeepers? And it appears that they are the descendants, basically, of a program that was set up way back in 1947 by President Harry Truman, right after the Roswell crash in Roswell, New Mexico in July of 1947. What happened is that people went and communicated to President Truman that they'd recovered this craft. And then they all started lying about it, saying it was a weather balloon and all of this, right? But it wasn't. And Lou Elizondo has now confirmed to Congress that Roswell was real and has said so under oath. He said he knows and he has seen the proof that it was a real UFO that crashed. And what happened is President Truman convened a group of men, 12 of them, apparently, in Washington and said, look, this is so extraordinarily important that I'm not even going to tell Congress about it. We're going to set up this special private group. A few of you are actually military people, but this is in your private capacity. You're going to head up this group, and it's going to be your job to keep this secret. And that we're going to figure out this technology and where these people are from, these UFO people, and he assigned it to them. And somehow this secret state or the fact that it has not been disclosed, 14 administrations later, has still not been disclosed. That's right. Because as each of those 12 original people get old and get ready to pass on, they were directed to handpick their immediate successor. It's completely secret. It's fascinating. Let's move on and ask, without speculating too much, what is your understanding from everything you know about the way this craft travels, how they get to our solar system, and who actually maneuvers them? Well, I'll tell you, it's kind of surprising, but I got an indication that you might suspect. They have a thing they call psionic assist. Explain what that is. What it is, is that they set up, there's a program that they call remote viewing. You've probably heard about it. When I hand you this object, what additional interesting thing comes to view? That's very interesting. This is kind of like a little plant image that I thought of. But you already described my object. I have. Isn't that interesting? It is to me. Okay. Would you like to see what I've got? Yes, I would. So you didn't have to pay me thousands of dollars for remote viewing training. Here's what I have for you. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's almost like that. They started doing the experiment originally to figure out how to communicate with nuclear submarines, because the nuclear submarines could stay underwater for a long time. They could go into the polar ice caps. But if they surfaced to try to communicate with putting up their antenna to communicate, the satellites, Russian satellites or Chinese satellites, because that's what they're fixated about, could pick them up. So what they were trying to do is figure out how to communicate with the submarines. And so they developed, first of all, they developed a technique of putting these antennas in the bottom of the nuclear submarine, so that if it was in shallow enough water, they could go all the way down to the seafloor and then project this antenna down into the bedrock. And then they would send communications through the bedrock of the earth in extra low frequency. They called them ELF, extra low frequency communications. And then there was a facility. I don't know where it is. There's a facility in North America where they have put down connections to the bedrock, and they can pick up these extra low frequencies. The challenge is that the new nuclear submarines can go deeper than others, but there are places where they can go that they can't get to the ocean floor. Because it's like, I don't know, 30,000 feet or something down, and they can only go to like 600, 800 feet or something, or 1,200 feet, I guess they can get to now. The bottom line is, so they had to have some other way to communicate. So what they did is they did an experiment, and they got a litter of rabbits. And they got the mother rabbit, and they hooked the mother rabbit up to electroencephalograms, electrocardiograms, all kinds of these electronic equipment. And they took her babies, and they put one of them in a number of different nuclear submarines. And they went to different parts of the world under sea. And at an exact moment, they had this like atomic clock, so they know that the exact microsecond that under one of the polar ice caps, they began to torture one of these little babies. And instantaneously, the mother rabbits' brain waves started freaking out. And jumping up and down and banging into everything and freaking out. And so they realized that there's some kind of scientific, biological communication system that the rabbits have. And so they began to see whether human beings have this or not. And that's how they set up the program at the Stanford Research Institute. The remote viewing. Yes, that's right. The remote viewing program. It began under the Office of Naval Intelligence to try to figure out how to communicate with nuclear submarines. And they realized that in doing that telepathic communication, that there was an ability to somehow link into a far off place of some other mind. And you could communicate over large distances. And so they realized that there's some phenomenon going on here. And so what they started doing is experimenting with whether or not a person who could do telepathic communication from mind to mind could actually locate things. Because they'd heard about psychic people that can find things. You know, like somebody's lost their favorite wallet or something. And they hire someone, a psychic, to figure out where it is. This is what Dr. Zhenzhou Jing was showing me when I was at the Chinese Academy of Social Science in Beijing. Very, very interesting. But anyway, that whole effort to project your consciousness out to some other distant place and see if you could describe what is there. So you're saying that's a method they use to travel? Well, that's where it's going to. Because what happens is that there are some people that can not only project their mind to another place, but they can actually see what's going on there. They can actually see what's happening. And it turns out that there are some people who can project almost kind of a photoplasmic person of their astral body to a far off place. It's called astral travel. And it's only usually written about people who are superstitious or they believe that they can act. But it turns out they began to suspect that they have ability to astral travel. And so they started doing experiments with this to see whether or not... And then these same people could perform telekinesis or psychokinesis, where they could actually make things move. They could knock over a bottle like this. They could just look at it and knock it over. This rare talent for moving objects by force of will alone has been termed psychokinesis or PK. Minel Kulagina is a Russian housewife who has this ability. These films of her demonstrating PK were made in a Russian hotel room and smuggled out of the country by American researchers. And so they realized that this was possible. So what they started doing is experiments. And I talked to one of the colonels. It was an astronaut. Anyway, and he told me about his best friend, who was another astronaut. They showed him an experiment. They took a Coca-Cola bottle and they had him write his name or his signature on a little piece of paper and fold it up and put it in the Coke bottle. And they set it on this table. And they had this machine. And all of a sudden, the machine came on and was shining light down on this thing. And it got harder and harder to see. And all of a sudden, it disappeared. And then they took him over into the next room. And he was there. And all of a sudden, there was a machine that looked just like that. And all of a sudden, the Coke bottle kind of materialized there. And they go over and pick up the Coke bottle and take the note out. And there's his signature. So that they can actually, through telekinesis, they can move objects like that over a distance using the same capacity that they use for distant remote viewing. And so I believe, I'm just telling you what I believe. Whenever I've raised this with these other people, they just freak out that they think someone has told me. And they have. But the bottom line is, that's my own personal opinion as to how this is possible. And what they have, the ET people have developed some technology by means of which they can amp up, extraordinarily amp up, the psychic ability of a psychic person. To project this thing. And they can actually project an entire craft with people, with beings and stuff in it. It's shocking and stunning. But this is exactly the kind of stuff that I was talking with Dr. Zhenzhou Jing about in Beijing. Because one of the things that they were working on there was trying to figure out alternative energy, a new alternative energy source. And they were thinking in terms of qi, right? The qi in the body. And that they've concluded that, or at least they believe that it has to do with a torsion field. That the chakras in the body, the energy centers in the body, when through adequate psychic attention, can affect the rotation, direction and rate of these energy centers in the body. And that it'll set up like a torsion field. And that's what draws the qi up through the body, right? And they thought that this might be an alternative source of energy. And she wanted me, she knew that I knew Ted Turner and George Zimmer and some other very, very intelligent and very creative and unorthodox wealthy people in the United States that I'd met down through the years. And wanted me to get them to assist in helping to finance this. And that's how I got invited to go to talk with them in there. And I've always maintained, I said that I think that the way that the United States national security state is acting toward China and Russia and other places, even though it's true that various nation states end up doing things that are immoral, or you would normally think to be immoral, because they each get this attitude toward each other. And then there's an entire ideological contest going on between communism or socialism and capitalism and democracy. All of these different isms that are going on, which are part of what I studied. It's why I was at Jesuit headquarters, is to try to be dealing with this at that level. What we want to do at our institute, at the New Paradigm Institute, is we want to transcend those types of dialectics, where they're feeling that it justifies them in doing things that are completely dishonest and duplicitous and demeaning the other person to the point where they dare do things to them or feel justified in doing things to them that are basically inhuman. And so that's my take on it. So I've put a lot of attention on this issue, because I view this as being the cutting edge, the cutting edge, not only of technology, but also issues of consciousness. Let me ask you a final question on UFOs and the revealing this information. What do you think would be the response from the general public if information about UFOs is being revealed, such as, they do exist, we've been studying them, we understand this much, but don't understand that much. How do you think the public will respond to that? Well, I'm concerned that it would be kind of like a whole hum, going, oh, that, yes, we've known, lots of people have known that for a long time, and they're convinced that the government knows it anyhow, whether it's justified, their belief or not. Turns out it is justified, but they didn't know it necessarily. And so I think that a substantial majority of people in our country already believe that extraterrestrial life exists, and they believe that UFOs are real, and they believe that they're extraterrestrial. And that the correlation between the strength of one's belief correlates to their level of education. So the more educated a person is, the more likely it is they're going to believe this, because it's so obvious. And the younger they are, the more likely they are to believe this. So there are these demographics that are going on as the younger people get more and more educated and ascend into leadership positions. There's a higher and higher percentage of the intelligentsia who actually believe this to be true anyhow. And they are largely the influence makers that influence other people who don't have the time, or don't spend the time paying attention to this, or getting the education that they need to know how to do independent research. And so I think that a substantial majority of the people in the United States already believe this. So you don't think it would even be a huge deal? No, it'll be a huge deal still, because the fact that it is getting revealed officially is being done. That's what's so surprising, because they've developed this attitude toward the government, that they're lying to us and deceiving us and treating us like mushrooms, as the people say, keeping us in the dark and feeding us manure. Thank you so much for your time. We'd like to come back next time and talk about some of your amazing cases you've been involved, being Watergate can still put on the Pentagon Papers. Yes. Thank you so much, and we'll be back next time. Absolutely. Thank you for watching another episode of Bay Area Innovators. If you enjoyed this episode and you know someone who should be on our show, please send us an email at sfbay at epochtimes.com. We would love to hear from you. Thank you and see you next week.