IN FULL! Gary Neville & Jamie Carragher on European Super League plans | Monday Night Football

Good evening and welcome to a Monday Night Football like no other, after a tumultuous 24 hours which has rocked the world of football to its very core. We do have a live game tonight, Leeds United are playing Liverpool and we will bring it to you, but it has become very much secondary to the bigger picture. On any ordinary Monday Night Football we might decide to lead with a story that Jose Mourinho has been sacked by Spurs, what, six days before he leads his team to a cup final? But not tonight, because late last night under the cover of darkness the European Super League project was formally launched to widespread condemnation from everybody in football and first and foremost by you, the football fans. The game's governing bodies you'll have heard are united against it. UEFA's president is today talking about liars and snakes involved in the project. The government tonight is saying they will do whatever it takes to protect our national game. Prince William, the FA president, has also added his voice this evening. We must protect the share the concern of fans and the damage it risks causing to the game we love. Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher are here tonight to give us their thoughts and there is strong feeling in the room as you might expect. Before we hear from them let's remind you of what these proposals are for the European Super League. 20 participating clubs competing annually, 12 already confirmed as the founding members, including the six from the Premier League. 15 founding clubs will be guaranteed to compete every season, so they need a further three more at this stage, then five further clubs to qualify based on domestic performance. They'll be playing midweek fixtures with all clubs continuing in respective national leagues, that's their proposal, with an August start each year and clubs participating in two groups of 10. Eight clubs will progress then to quarterfinals with the final played in May at a neutral venue and they say a corresponding women's Super League will subsequently be launched. Well we heard Gary's instant reaction last night after the Manchester United game, so Jamie let's start with you. What's your overall feeling on this European Super League? No different to Gary and every supporter up and down the country today, but what I would say is this is not Liverpool, Man United, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, Involvement City. This is John Emery on FSG, this is the Glazers, this is Roman Abramovich, Sheikh Mansour, Stan Kroenke, Daniel Levy. These are the people to blame for this and what they're doing actually right now is dragging institutions that we've seen in this country over 100 years basically through the mud, burning the history of what those clubs are basically about because from my own club's point of view, the only reason Liverpool are in this or have a chance of being in this Super League is the fact they've won six European Cups or 20 league titles, 21 each come from under FSG, so they used what Liverpool have done in their history going back to Bill Shankly even before that to get into some league to line their own pockets and the biggest thing for me certainly is the football world in terms of everyone being against it tonight. Jürgen Klopp has spoken on this in 2019 and made his stance very clear. If Liverpool Football Club lose their manager on the back of this in the next 12 months or so, those owners will be run out of that club in a week, I can assure you of that and the owners of Liverpool and because it hurts me more because it's Liverpool and that's why I'm touching on them, this ownership brought Liverpool Football Club on the back of other American owners running the club badly and the fans got them out and these got the club for a steal and it's now worth six or seven times more, they've made the money, they've won the lottery with Liverpool and my message to everyone is I think these clubs think this is a done deal, it's done, I don't think it is, I think supporters up and down this country can stop this, I really do believe it and I think at the forefront of that will be Liverpool because I've seen it before, we have tribalism in this country, we have rivalry and that's what makes it the game it is and that's what we love. Football fans get together, all of us in TV, pundits, players, managers, get together and stop this because it can be stopped, I'm convinced of it and going forward I think that's what we need, marches on stadiums, supporters getting together, this cannot be allowed to happen. Well should anyone be in any doubt still Gary, spell it out for us, how dangerous are these proposals for the future of our game? I said yesterday that I thought it was a criminal act, I was half hoping, I went to bed about quarter past 10 last night so I didn't see the statement out as it came, I was half hoping that they were gonna, off the backlash off the end of that game and the sort of media reaction, the fan reaction, the immediate fan reaction was awful towards it, I was hoping that they were going to rethink it. When I woke up and I saw the statement and it had Joel Glazer's name on it I thought this is a problem, big problem, he didn't put his name on anything that man, he's intelligent, he knows what he wants and he's parked his weasels and he's come out and I thought oh this is serious, he's not backing down, he's going to try and push this through, once he puts his name on it he's going to try and force this through, they've been through hell at Manchester United in the early years, they withstood it, they stared it out, they don't care, they don't care and when I saw his name on it I really worried, I'm enthused by the reaction of government, by royalty, by the whole of football, by the fans, but if they get this through, if they push this through and these owners have pushed difficult things through in the past for these clubs, Levy's steel-like, the Glazers are steel-like, Abramovich's hard as nails in terms of you know he won't care about criticism, it will change football in this country forever, forever and we have to now mobilise, organise, it's difficult not to get emotional and feel sick but honestly you've got to write to your MPs, you've got your local football clubs, you've got to write, everybody's got to come behind this, pundits for BBC, ITV, BT Sport, forget allegiances, forget who you support, we have got to come together to stop this proposal, this is an attack on everything that's been important in this country, football has helped in the last 10 months in the midst of a pandemic more than ever keep people going and they're trying to take it away from us, I feel slightly complicit, I've stayed pretty quiet in terms of the Glazer family over the years, stayed pretty quiet because I thought when the club were taken over as a PLC that you knew it could be bought and it was out of the control of players and fans of everybody, I believe in a free market, generally in life and I've always thought what's the answer to the Glazers, who takes them out, Russia, China, state money for the two or three billion quid it would need and I've stayed quiet on the basis that it's still Manchester United, I can still go and watch the lads play, I can be happy and I can be sad, I'm still watching football in this country, if they take dividends out, all right it's dividends, I can live with it slightly but what I can't live with is attacking every single football fan in this country, they have stepped over the mark, they are scavengers and they need booting out of this football club and they need booting out of this country and we have got to come together now, it might be too late, there'll be people at Manchester United, fans who were arguing 15 years ago who will say it's too late, it's never too late, we have got to stop this, it is absolutely critical we do. But why is it different this time Gary, why could it destroy football as we know it? They've created a monopoly, a closed shop, a tournament where you're guaranteed to be in it, West Ham and Leicester in Champions League places, forget it, they don't get into the Champions League anymore, doesn't matter where they finish in the league, what's the point? They take away everything in this country, the pyramid, the sincerity of competition, the honesty and integrity of competition that we value and they're taking it away, yeah we know that Manchester United have got more money, we know Liverpool have got more money, we know that Arsenal have got more money, we can live with that, there'll always be top clubs who have more money but they can be beaten by Sheffield United at home, they can draw with Fulham and they're trying to take that away to create franchise football, never, it can never happen. I don't think these six owners, I hope they're panting hard tonight and feeling uncomfortable and their stomachs are churning and their executives and the players who play for these clubs, I can't sit here and say to the players of Liverpool of strike because that wouldn't be right but lads if you've got it in you, you can stop this, you can mobilise, Jurgen Klopp can stop it, he's a man of integrity, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer can stop it, he's a man of integrity, they can all contribute to stopping it and we must come together now because this is an attack by six wealthy families on the integrity of our national sport and it must be stopped. Well we have asked all those involved at those six clubs to speak to us this evening on Monday Night Football and all six have declined to comment but one is playing tonight, Liverpool and of course their manager Jurgen Klopp is someone we can speak to and he has had a lot to say on this subject in the past, this was him speaking in August 2019, I hope there will never be this Super League with the way the Champions League is now running, football has a really great product, for me the Champions League is the Super League in which you don't always have to play the same teams, of course he said it's economically important but why should we create a system where Liverpool can play against Real Madrid for 10 years in a row, who wants to see this every year, that was Jurgen Klopp then and this, speaking to Greg Whelan, is Jurgen Klopp now. Jurgen, not too long ago you said you hoped there wouldn't be a Super League, what are your thoughts, what are your feelings today? Didn't change since I had my feelings, my opinion didn't change, obviously I heard for the first time about it yesterday, when you try to prepare a game like a very difficult game against Leeds United and I knew so far we got some information, not a lot to be honest, most of the things you more or less can read in newspapers, it's a tough one, people are not happy with that, I can understand that, but I cannot say a lot more about it to be honest, because we were not involved in any processes, not the players, not me, we didn't know about it, now that's the case, the facts are out there, and now we will have to wait. Just as a football man, Jurgen, what are your own instincts? Oh, I'm 53 years old, and since I'm a professional player the Champions League was there, so I think, I'm not sure, 93 or something like that, since then it's the Champions League, and my aim was always, as a player it was not possible, as a manager it was always the aim to coach a team there, so I have obviously no issues with the Champions League, I like the competitive factor of football as well, so I like the fact that West Ham might play the Champions League next year, I don't want them to, to be honest, because we want to do that, but I like that they have the chance and all these kinds of things, so yes, what can I say, it's really not easy. What I want to say as well is, I heard a few things, but what I really don't like is, Liverpool football is much more than some decisions, and the most important part of football are the supporters and the team, and we have to make sure that really nothing gets in between that, because I heard we put banners down at Anfield, I don't understand that, because the players didn't do anything wrong when we didn't win all the games, but we go with everything, and how he said, we want to qualify for the Champions League next year. So we have to stick together, and when other people from other clubs use our anthem against us, I don't like that as well, so we can show that nobody has to walk alone in these moments, so there are things we have to sort, obviously, but that has nothing to do with the football, nothing to do with the relationship between the supporters and the team, that's for me really important, because in tough times you have to show that you stick together, that doesn't mean you have to agree to everything, but again, the boys didn't do anything wrong, apart from not winning all football games, so I really want to make sure that everybody knows that. It's such a difficult situation, isn't it, but you can understand the fans' frustration. Yeah, yeah. No, I understand it, I get that, but I'm in a different position, so I don't have all the information, I don't know exactly why the 12 clubs did it. I know some things will change in the future in football, some things have to change in football, that's for sure as well. Where the power is and stuff like this, that's not right, UEFA cannot just decide things as well, FIFA cannot decide things, everybody plans new competitions, UEFA wants the Champions League, they showed it to me, I told them there are more games in, so I don't like it, months ago, and they anyway do it, I don't expect that they don't do it only because I don't like it, but they showed it to me and it happens anyway. It's always more games, more games, and if you tell the clubs it's about money, what do you think it's with UEFA about? FIFA wants a Club World Cup whenever that should happen, it's about money, nothing else. And all these kinds of things, so it happens, it's not only these clubs. Things will change and some things have to change, but usually you have to prepare these kinds of things, so it needs time and convincing, but one thing I can understand that people think it's not right is the competitiveness. I get that, I said that before, I don't like that we may not be in the Champions League, but if we earn it we want to be there, like anybody else. Talking of preparation, you have a big game tonight, only minutes away really, has it had an impact, do you sense, on the players at all? Not really, yesterday we didn't really know, and this morning I had a short meeting and told the boys what's happened, the things I know, which is not a lot, and then we just tried to focus on the game, which we will do. I heard already there are warm-up shirts or whatever, we will not wear them, we cannot, but if somebody thinks he has to remind us that you have to earn to go to the Champions League, that's a joke. That's a real joke and it makes me angry. So if they put it in our dressing room, if it was a Leeds idea, thank you very much. Nobody has to remind us, maybe they should remind themselves. Yeah, appreciate it. Well, he's answered all the questions head-on, hasn't he? This is the T-shirt that has upset him, football is for the fans, you can see Melie wearing that as he warms up this evening, it's a UEFA Champions League T-shirt on the front, clearly. EARN IT, which is against the European Super League proposals. Do you understand why he's angry about that? Yes, I do, and it goes back to my first answer. This is not about the football clubs, this is about the owners of those clubs, this little mafia that's trying to turn English football into an American-style sport, where there's franchises, there's no relegation, and that's why he's frustrated, and rightly so. What about the fans taking down the banners at Anfield? Yeah, I knew about that today, but I can understand where the supporters are coming from. He'll be upset because when Liverpool play at Anfield, maybe there's not that support there, but that's a message to the owners, and there needs to be a message sent to Liverpool's owners in particular, because that's his club and the supporters I know, so that's right, I've got no problem with that at all, but that's the start. You've got a manager there of one of those big six clubs who's basically coming out and disagreeing totally with what his owners are doing. We need the rest of the six, the other five managers, to do exactly the same, and that'll be the start, because this is only going to get bigger, and I think this will stop. I think there's enough people in football who don't want this to happen, who, as you said, will mobilise together, and this can be stopped. What about using the anthem against us? I don't know if that means you last night. I think he will, I mean, when I initially was reacting to last night, and I mentioned you'll never walk alone, it wasn't in a disrespectful way to Liverpool. I maybe in the past have done that, but not last night. My intentions last night were around the fact that the two most successful football clubs in this country should have high standards of integrity. And for all the rivalry, there is a respect, a respect that you do the right things, a respect that you defend your club, of course, but they actually both recognise that they're great football clubs that have done great things. And the shock that these two are at the front of this, they're at the front of this. Don't forget the six, I forget the six. Chelsea and City, Sheikh Mansour and Roman Abramovich, we don't even know who they are, we don't even know who they are. Arsenal and Tottenham, I mean, I'd rather watch the champions of San Marino than them two at the moment, to be honest with you. How them two have wangled their way in. They're a joke to watch. And then we've got these two. They should be bringing people together. They should be demonstrating compassion when we're in the midst of a pandemic. They should have the highest standards at all time. And these two sets of owners have taken these football clubs, they've not only profited from them, they are now taking it to a different level. They're not only, you could argue at times, where Manchester United fans have argued that they've harmed our own club because they've not been able to put all them dividends and all those debt repayments into players, but they're now trying to harm every single football fan in this country. Because there is less money for grassroots pitches, there is less money for coaches. If these six leave, there is less money for everybody who plays in this country. And I say, the government, I've been saying it for 12 months around an independent regulator, the government must step in now on these clubs. And Liverpool and Manchester United, there was no sort of point scoring from me last night mentioning Liverpool. And if I came across that way to Jurgen Klopp, I apologise, because I think I'm on his side on this particular one. He's done the most incredible job. If I take allegiances away, I've absolutely loved watching his football team over the last four years, more than the City one. Because they're electric. They're everything I want in a football team. He's everything I want in a manager. He's decent. His players are decent. I know some of them. And the fans behind the goal are connected to those players to that manager. And what's happening, they've been basically divided. Divided. You've both talked about mobilising fans and it seems to be happening already. We'll take Ellen Road tonight. These pictures just come through to us. The banners are up there, you can see as well. There's always a plane, isn't there, as well. Say no to the Super League. The message is clear from everyone. And next, we'll hear from the Crystal Palace chairman, Steve Parish. Well, welcome back. Here are the Leeds United players coming out to Ellen Road tonight with a clear message on the front of their shirts. Earn it in terms of the Champions League. Football is for the fans. That's the message in a T-shirt that has upset Jurgen Klopp, as you might have heard, in the build-up to this game against Liverpool this evening. So we have the reaction from UEFA as well this evening. From UEFA president Alexander Seferin. We will take all the sanctions that we can, he says, and we will inform you as soon as we have a clear answer. My opinion is that as soon as possible, the players have to be banned from all our competitions. I cannot stress more strongly, UEFA and the footballing world are united against the disgraceful, self-serving proposals we have seen, fuelled purely by greed. It's a nonsense of a project, he says. We will not allow them to take this away from us. Earlier, we'd heard statements yesterday, in fact, from the Premier League. There are six clubs in one corner. There are 14 right now in another, and the chairman of one of those, the Crystal Palace chairman, Steve Parrish, is joining us tonight on Monday Night Football. Steve, thank you so much for being with us this evening. It's a sad day. How has it come to this? Well, we all know it's been brewing for a long time, don't we? From the leak in the Project Big Picture, the constant things that we deal with in the Premier League, which are the attempts to load the dice. We might look back on this, though, and think that this is actually quite a good day for football, or yesterday, because what we've seen is people massively overplaying their hand, in my view. It's quite strange because they were getting their own way on so many things. I mean, not many people know. I was sort of shouting in the wilderness about the fact that they were looking to get this coefficient through so that they could leapfrog teams in some instances. Even next year in the Champions League, I don't think people realise that 30% of the money will be awarded to teams based on their history, based on their history of being in the league over the last few years. So, you know, they've been chipping away in the background and they've actually been, by stealth, getting these things through. And it's been very difficult sometimes to get people to pay attention because they're quite remote, they're in a few years' time. So it feels like yesterday at the moment was a bit of a gift. I don't know what day they thought that anybody would react well to this or it would all be okay. But, you know, to unite Sadiq Khan, Boris Johnson, Macron, Jurgen Klopp, every football fan in the country, you guys, every chairman other than the top six, every chief exec, together on a Sunday afternoon, there's quite some talent. And, you know, I've never... I was actually really, really encouraged by the outpouring from everybody. And I think that, you know, we may actually get into a very good place, I hope, after this. So right now, as things stand, Steve, are you quite confident that this will not happen? Well, look, this is Kerry Packer Circus all over again. I mean, you know, if these guys want to... I can't even imagine that they're going to get five teams that will join them. So they'll play in some quasi-friendly competition, you know, with all of their players banned from playing in internationals, with all of the clubs banned from their leagues. You know, I mean, of course, you can't say never and that they might not be prepared to do it. And then even then, I'm not sure that they quite understand where governments stand in this. I mean, you know, the Premier League is the jewel in the crown in many ways, you know, of England and Great Britain. You know, it's a fantastic, outwardly looking piece of soft power that we have around the world. You know, I just don't think the British government are going to let that walk away. I don't think, you know, other governments in Europe are going to allow these things to happen. You know, what about clubs like Ajax, who are going to be permanently locked out of this thing? I mean, I don't know. Apparently, they spent six months thinking about this or even longer. It just strikes me as extraordinary, the miscalculation of the public mood. Steve, these top six mafia, as we call them earlier in the show, are getting criticised for being selfish, looking after themselves. But the other 14 clubs in the Premier League, a lot of them were asking for null and void last season. You've also not helped the AFL clubs. Is that hypocritical when you criticise these top six clubs? Well, I don't think that's true, Jamie. We have helped the AFL clubs. You know, look, in terms of ongoing support, I think you'll find the Premier League filtering more money down into the lower leagues than any of the other major leagues in Europe. We certainly give far more money down to the lower leagues in solidarity. And when I'm in the Premier League meetings, I vote as if I wasn't. You know, I vote as one of the 72 clubs that aren't in there because I know I might be back there in no time. I vote on the basis that I have a duty of care to the game and that it could be Nottingham Forest or Leeds when they weren't in the league, or Aston Villa have won the Champions League who are voting on these issues. And I encourage everybody in the league to do that and take their responsibility seriously and not be bullied constantly by these guys. So we represent the rest of the football pyramid because we're not stupid enough to not understand that we might be back there. And we represent the fans. And every single thing that we do in the Premier League is open to public scrutiny. And that's the way that it should be. And we have enormous fan pressure because if you guys are quite right and pointed out, you know, this is all about the fans. I'm a fan. This is my club I've supported since I was four years old. I'm involved in football because I think that there's a dream, as naive as I might be, that one day we might play in Europe. What is the point for all of us if that dream is taken away? So, you know, I think that looking back on some of the single issues, yes, you know, when the co-op are taking business rate relief and making 128 million in profit, you know, when we were uniquely being asked to bail out totally clubs in the Championship that had often been profligate in the way that they run their business, notwithstanding we did come up with help and we should come up with help, you know, I think that if you just look at that issue, which was debated and we got to the right answer, but generally we do get to the right answer. Steve, that was a criticism you received, wasn't it? Because this was around the issue of the pandemic and the clubs coming to you for bailouts and the quote that you gave was the supermarkets aren't instructed to help out the corner shops when it was the Championship clubs coming to you at a time of crisis. I think that was Jamie's point about is this all a bit about self-service here? Look, every single club, you've got to make sure they first don't go out of business. You know, if you guys don't think that in some ways this is born of the pressures of the pandemic, you know, these big clubs have lost a lot of money. And the other side of this, we've got to look at a way of trying to connect the dots and bring us all back together. These clubs have lost a lot of money and somebody's turning up and saying that you can have a 350 million pound cheque each. And that's going to cure a lot of problems in these clubs who are hurting financially. You know, in the end, we have to balance the books somehow. And at some point, we did help the lower leagues. We should continue to help the lower leagues because I might be back there in no time. So of course we need to support the football pyramid. And I would never vote against a change to relegation. We understand the duty of care we have to the game in that league. But this is beyond the power. This is incredible what's going on. You know, for these clubs to want to invent a tournament, based on an arbitrary period of history, to leapfrog clubs in Europe that have a much stronger history over a longer period of time, and just say we're the gilded elite and it will never change, is abhorrent to every single football fan in this country and every single football fan around Europe. Steve, you've got a meeting tomorrow with 14 clubs, the six that are obviously looking to break away, haven't been invited or they've not turned up for whatever reason. What is actually, what's on the agenda? What are you looking to achieve out of the meeting? And is it a case of that you're going to look to punish these six clubs, or are you going to look to maybe put an olive branch out there and sort of bring them back to the table? But of course we want them back to the table. You know, of course, you know, these are massive brands. You know, they are very successful in, you know, in some of them forever, most of them over recent periods. You know, we need them in our league. We, you know, the Champions League need them as part of the Champions League. And we have to find a way of understanding the issues that drove them to this, but equally you have to be strong. And I think the outpouring that we've had against this, you know, does give us some strength now to talk to them and say, look, you know, we are 14 clubs that we aren't currently as big as you. We understand that. Historically, some of the clubs here have been as big as you. And there are clubs that aren't even in the league right now that are even, you know, bigger than some of us. And you have to take us into account and you have to take the whole of football's views into account and hopefully, hopefully UEFA are already working on it. Hopefully we can find, you know, a resolution. The president of UEFA has described Daniele and Edward Wood as snakes. How would you describe them? Well, look, I mean, I think there are a lot of personal relationships that have been fractured by this. And, you know, that's another thing that sometimes it's difficult. You know, there's many meetings that I've sat in and I've said, guys, just say what you want. You know, you want us to keep going and doing research until it says what it is that you want, that you want to sell your own games, that you want to do X, Y, Z. You know, there is something that's a little bit disingenuous about it, but we understand that people want to do the best for their business. We understand that people want to try and change things and we should be open to new ideas. Gary, you've got a lot of new ideas and a lot of things that you want to suggest and you want to change. We can't just shut everything down and not listen. And within this, there might be things that, you know, that we can help these guys with. So, you know, we need to go back and we need to look at it. But certainly NASA at PSG and Bayern, you know, really do have to be applauded for the position that they've taken. It's an incredibly strong position and I understand that in the case of PSG, from loyalty to his relationship with me and Mr Seferin. So, you know, all power to those people that didn't do it. That could be Edward on the phone, Steve. I'm not sure, trying to convince you. Just with regard to what Gary was asking you there about this meeting tomorrow, if the worst did happen and if the Six are intent on going ahead with this, as it seems like, as we stand right now, they are, would you, as the other 14, have the power to expel them from the Premier League? Well, look, we would need to talk about that and I would need to take advice from the Premier League. As you understand, you know, I didn't swallow the rule book of the Premier League and I don't know the powers, but I mean, certainly, you know, in the end, if they've got the authority to run off and start their own league and cancel the agreement they've got with us, then I'm sure the rest of us have got the authority to start our own one as well. But none of us want that, right? And, you know, we've got to get around the table and we've got to try and find a solution. Firstly, UEFA, you know, have got to find a solution because in the end, right now, it isn't our league they're walking away from, right? They don't actually want to walk away from our league. They want to walk away from the Champions League. So I think that there's a lot of things that can happen before we get to a point where we have to take those kind of sanctions. All right, Steve. Thank you so much for your time and contribution to Monday Night Football this evening. Thanks a lot, guys. What we haven't talked about, we've touched on it, but not really gone into any great detail about why these six clubs are so adamant in pursuing this European Super League. I think it's worth doing that at this stage. We obviously said money and greed. What about beyond that? Is it about certainty of income, which they can't get and perhaps can't get their head round in this football pyramid that we have in Europe? Yeah, I think there's a lack of understanding. Not lack of understanding, they understand it. There's a lack of willingness to want to basically... They want to change the system. They want to change the very fabric of the pyramid. Of relegation and promotion. So they have certainty. So they can count on their income year in, year out. They don't like the idea. Manchester United, you know, they lose loads of money off their sponsors when they don't qualify for the Champions League. And they've been really good at not qualifying for the Champions League in the last 10 years. Really, really good. But they were banking on it all the time under Sir Alex Ferguson. Because he was pulling them out of the mire every single year, whilst obviously there were massive amounts of money being invested. And getting into the Champions League every season. And they just thought it was their right. They're entitled. They think they're entitled to be in there. And they're not. And they've had the shock of their lives. Arsenal, Spurs, Manchester United, Chelsea have fallen out of it at times. Liverpool, to be fair, only under Jurgen Klopp in the last couple of seasons. And they want to change the system for their own benefit. They do. More people watch those clubs. They want to own subscription. They want subscription models. They want to put it all on their phone. They want it on this. You know, you think about it. 150 million Manchester United fans worldwide paying one pound for every match in the weekend. They get 150 million quid a week. They're the numbers we're talking about here that's at stake. They want to own their own commercial income, their own image rights, their own TV rights. They want to break away from what would be the system that is happening in this country. Simple as that. Should they have more power if more people want to watch them? I think the situation with the Premier League, where there's a vote of 14 and a six. Now, I can understand the frustration of the six in that it almost feels like their vote on things, wherever it may be, is almost less powerful than someone coming up from the Championship, who may be in the Premier League for a year. Because they're then part of the 14. They stick together. And these top six clubs, who do bring the revenue, who do bring the interest in. So I can understand the frustration from that. But you just mentioned then, in terms of the money and what they're going to bring in in terms of looking after their own media and things like that. But what you're left with is absolutely nothing. They're going to go into a league where one team will win it. What's left for everybody else? There's nothing there. There's no competition. There's nothing. They'll use the Premier League. They say they still want to be in the Premier League. They'll end up using the Premier League almost like a Carabao Cup. And they'll save all the best players for playing against Real Madrid or Barcelona. As Jurgen Klopp said in his quote from 2019, People will become very, very bored of Liverpool, Real Madrid. It was exciting. Because we haven't played them maybe since 2009. That's the joy of it, isn't it? Exactly. That's what it is. And that's what's special about European football. You shouldn't forget that. People are going to become bored very quickly with football. And people all around the world right now, I think are starting to turn off from football. I think VAR is a big problem with that. Whether you agree with it or not, people don't like it. And this on top of it now, this is going to turn away a generation of supporters who grew up loving football. And it's just going to become boring because there's absolutely nothing there. And I'm thinking in the future, what am I going to get excited about? I'm a pundit. But I love watching Liverpool. And I love them scoring a goal. And football can take you to a place that nothing else can. This will never take you to this place ever again if this is allowed to happen. These owners at Manchester United Day, they've allowed that stadium to rot. It's second rate. They don't paint the steel. It's rusty on the outside of the stadium. There's no experience for the fans on match day at all. They've got tens of acres around the actual ground that's land banked, that they don't invest in and create a Manchester United world. I said before, they're scavengers. And they just want the big money for themselves. That is it. It's got to be stopped.