Dua Lipa on leaving bad relationships and choosing Radical Optimism

I think there's just this massive stigma around pop music overall and especially as a female artist to be taken seriously unless you're behind a piano or a guitar. Then if you're just making songs that feel good, have the aim to make you feel positive, make you feel good that they don't have depth. Dua Lipa, nice to meet you. So nice to meet you Tom. How are you? I'm all right. Congratulations on the record. I really love it. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm so happy for it to finally be coming out into the world. I think I was just saying to you before we turned the microphones on that it's like a weird, cool, psychedelic dance record. Oh cool. I mean that's what I, but I just, I wanted it to have that real freedom that I feel like psychedelia has and I feel like, and I think about like psychedelic music, I think about like the Summer of Love and I feel like we spent two years of our life kind of indoors during the pandemic collectively and we're all kind of like figuring out the new normal and it feels like now we've kind of, we're just back in the swing of things and so with this record to come out it feels like a real kind of free-flowing moment for that time, for that kind of radical optimism within all the madness. Well it's like speaking of the Summer of Love, I mean we're in Jimi Hendrix's studio so that's pretty psychedelic. I was listening to this interview with Caroline Allen who's one of your most close collaborators and she had a line that I found really interesting about you and she said every studio session with Dua starts with the truth. So what were the truths or the truth that you were exploring on this record? I guess, you know, my really close friendship with Caroline over the years, we've worked on all three of my albums now together, has just allowed this sense of closeness that I can go into a room and just be myself and talk about things that are happening in my life and I know that together we can write songs that allow me to tell my story but also offer me a kind of sense of protection in a way that I can write songs from my experience but I can also like mask them in mysticism and, you know, whether it's Houdini or it's Illusion or whatever way that I want to describe it, that also gives me like a safety net on how I want to tell my stories and it always starts with the truth because it's always like a dear diary. I come into the studio and especially this album, it was just a fun year of me just coming in every day into the studio and being like well this happened last night and so let's write about it and let's talk about it. Like a story like oh we went out last night and then this happened. And then this happened. It was really how it was and yeah, a lot of the stories just kind of stemmed from personal relationships, things that were going on like ups and downs and good dates and bad ones and yeah, it's like girl chat, you know, sitting down and just like putting it all down onto paper. What's Houdini about? So Houdini is about I guess just really like knowing your worth. It's like finally coming to a place of being like if you're good enough, I'll stay. And if you're not, I know when it's time for me to leave. Like I know when a situation's good for me or not and that was probably something I wasn't able to do as well previously in my life. When I was writing, knowing when to like leave. Like a bad and negative relationship, something, those are things that I had to like learn through. I like stuck it out. Like my first ever relationship I stayed in for way longer than I should have done because I felt like that was the way that things were supposed to be or until I was like wait a second, this person doesn't make me feel good or isn't very nice to me, isn't kind to me, puts me down, says things that make me feel uncomfortable, you know, whatever it is. You just kind of learn from all those experiences and I'm at a place now where I just won't stand for that, not even for a second. And Houdini is a very strong song of like catch me or I'm leaving kind of thing. You said something in your first answer that I'm sort of stuck on. I hope so. One for interview doer. You said it allows me to tell my story and speak openly while still offering me protection. Protection from what? I think when you have, like for me, like my life is so public whether I like it or not. So whether that's me walking down the street or where I am or what I'm doing, there is so much of myself that I offer up anyway. There's also so much of myself that I've made peace with the fact that so many people have an insight into my life. I've also made peace with the fact that people are going to make up scenarios about me or they're going to believe what they want to believe about me. And I've also allowed myself to be okay with so many of those things because I get to do what I love every single day and that's make music and be on stage and perform and travel the world. So those are the sacrifices that I've made. When I write my songs, that's my therapy. How I choose to dress them up, that's my therapy. How I, you know, I can talk about my personal experiences but I don't have to necessarily like say the name. That can be for me and the person who maybe hears it will know it's about them. But I don't have to go and like paint a very like, I don't have to put someone on blast in order for me to get my like catharsis in a way. Yeah, I know what you mean. I never considered that. I was thinking just then about records that were made here, you know, and in the 60s and 70s like Stevie Wonder records and Jimi Hendrix records. And I don't know if I ever, I don't know if back then people were going like, oh well, there was no like Reddit message board to talk about who you make me feel like a natural woman is about. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's a whole different world for you. Yeah, for sure. And also, you know, the sacrifices maybe that I've chosen to make about my public life don't necessarily represent the same for maybe someone who I'm writing the song about, you know. They might not be a public person like I am. So regardless of whatever the situation is, it's like you hold certain details back but still at the same time putting enough out there that I feel like I'm telling my story in the way that I want it to be heard. She's good on you for knowing that. A lot of people don't know that early on. A lot of people figure that out later and kind of look back and go like, oh I wish I hadn't or I wish I hadn't. Like it feels like right away you sort of knew where you wanted to draw the line about how much people knew about you and how much people knew you. Am I wrong? No, I just I think it just came very like naturally to me. Yeah, and I guess that's like the fun part about writing a song. It's like you're telling your story but you can dress it up how you like. Where did radical optimism come from? Radical optimism was a term that was, I guess now I like to think of it as gifted to me by a friend of mine. We were having a conversation for his podcast and he goes, he's like, you know, like a couple of my friends came up to me and they were just like, you know what we need in the world is radical optimism. And I was like, wow, like radical optimism. What an incredible, I guess like, what an incredible phrase when you put two words together and you get that juxtaposition between something that I guess in a way it's like being like violently happy in a way, you know. It's like when things aren't going well, how do you make yourself feel better? How do you roll with the punches? How do you pick yourself back up when things aren't working out? How do you look at the positive side of things? How do you go, okay, in every experience, there's something to learn from it. And I love to think about hindsight. That's been something that I've gone back on a lot is what do you mean by that? How do you feel? Like it's so often that when like a month later down the line, you look back on something and you're like, man, I was freaking out over nothing or that felt like such a big deal to me at the time. And now looking in hindsight, you know, everything kind of figures itself out. And I think it's that, it's taking everything with a pinch of salt and being like, you know what, everything's going to be fine. Yesterday I was having a conversation with a friend of mine and he said something that helps him when he's getting overwhelmed. It was something that someone said to him very early on when he's getting overwhelmed is it's okay, this day has to end too, you know, in some way. So you make the most of whatever's happening today, but it's going to be gone soon at some point. And sometimes when things are so intense and so overwhelming and you're like, this is like the worst day of my life. Like sometimes before I go to bed, I go, okay, I never have to live through that day ever again. And tomorrow I'll just figure it out some other way, whatever happens. But today that's done. I'll close my eyes. I'll go to sleep. It's over, you know, and you just figure it out. There's a choice though, isn't it? I read, um, I don't know if you ever read Radical Acceptance by Tara Brock. No. Oh, no, but I have read another book by her. Radical Compassion, maybe. Maybe with a bunch of incredible like, um, case studies and she's, she's amazing. Yeah. I'm a meditator. Are you a meditator? So, so I do like, um, guided meditation. I find that like the easiest, but I love to do them in the morning and in the evening. And that gives me, um, just some time for myself for sure, which is important, but. Radical, uh, not, not to paraphrase her, but Radical Acceptance is about, people think it's about, um, accepting whatever's going to happen to you no matter what, you know, like, oh, you know, no matter what happens, I'm just going to accept it and just try to move on with my life. It's actually, in my opinion, about offering compassion to yourself. That like when things are hard and when things are tough, or when you, when you go through a breakup or someone's awful to you, or there's something going on, offering compassion to yourself as you, as you move through it, except not, not hoping that things will change, but accepting that things will not change in that moment that this did happen to you and offering yourself compassion, uh, at the same time. So I guess when I heard Radical, Radical Optimism in your album title, what it sounded like to me was a choice that like, as the world is, is, is, is painful, or as I go through painful things, whether they be interpersonally in my relationships or something I see in the news, I choose compassionately for myself to remain optimistic. Totally. 1000%. And I, I feel like I've consistently done that, um, in life and in my music. And I've just always felt like I always want to put an optimistic spin on things. I always see the music as like, um, a mantra. I want to say good things. I feel like the more I say things, the more they come true. So if I'm going to sing it over and over, it's like a manifestation. Yeah. Something's going to happen. So I got to be careful what I say. Yeah. Um, and so I like to, I like to think of things, um, in that way, like, I love for them to have a positive spin if I'm going to sing them for a long time, because I'm manifesting these words and I'm going to be singing them to a lot of people who are going to be singing them back to me. Let's put some good ---- out into the world. Fair enough. It reminds me that what's the thing you said at the Grammys? Um, I used to think I had to write sad songs for my music to matter. Was that what you said? I said something along those lines of, I just, I think there's just this massive stigma around pop music overall. Um, and especially as a female artist to be taken seriously, unless you're behind a piano or a guitar, um, that then if you're just making songs that feel good, that have the aim to make you feel positive, make you feel good, that they don't have depth, which I don't choose. I don't want to subscribe to that at all because I feel like sometimes writing things that are optimistic, that are happy, that do have depth is maybe harder because a sad feeling is much easier to tap into. It's almost like a bad Twitter comment. Yeah. It will linger in your mind way longer than somebody being nice to you for a moment. So sometimes a sadder, harder feeling is much easier to tap into rather than I feel good and I want to grasp that energy in some way. But I should say, I mean, this record is not all, um, rainbows and sunshine and pink pens. I don't know why that came to mind. You know what? Pink pens where they had like the little feather on the tie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not, I hate to break it. Here's my review of your record. It's not all pink pens. Um, like when you're writing it, when you're going through, cause this is, I mean, this is, you're, you're, you're writing about what you need as someone to love you. You're, you're, you're writing about what you will accept and what you won't accept in a relationship. Like if you drill down to these poppy, dancey, beautiful, groovy, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dance, dance crying. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's something there, you know? Yeah. I mean, they're all like, um, first of all, yeah. From, from the initial thing that we started talking about, it's like the truth, like the underlying honest things about me and who I am and even songs that some people see as sad, which is like happy for you or these walls. I don't see at all. Like happy for you. It feels like a full one 80 maturing of being able to see somebody, um, do well, you know, be good and happy and you to feel that for them as well. And to want that for them. And I think that's a really, um, beautiful and respectful thing to come out of a relationship. You know, it doesn't work out for you, but it's, it's how amazing to be able to see someone and be like, yeah, you deserve that. That's amazing. In a non passive aggressive way. Oh, yeah. That's amazing. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm so happy for you. Oh yeah. That's great. I think you can also read the lyrics without hearing the song and be like, this sounds passive aggressive. Well, I wondered it was because of your love for clubs. I know one of the big, um, one of the big influences on this record was Screamadelica, the Primal Scream record. And I got to talk to Bobby Gillespie one time. You ever meet Bobby? No, I've not met him. He's a wild man. I've not met him. I've heard he's amazing. Lovely fellow. Yeah. And he sort of had a back, he said something to me that I was thinking about it when I was listening to this record and reading about you, which is a weird thing to say to another human. But I said, I was reading articles about to do it. You can have to live with it. Um, and he said that, so he came up in like sort of angry, dark punk, like Jesus and Mary Chain and shoegaze music. And he said, Primal Scream kind of really started because he started going to clubs and to raves and realizing the joy that's around him. I'm going to tell you something about me. I have never in my life, I don't know if you can tell from the beard, I've never gone to a club. What? In my life. What? Yeah. In my life. By choice. You just didn't like feel the urge to want to even like check it out or. I think my friends just didn't go or we were going to bars. We were going to see shows. We never went to clubs in our lives. So can you tell me from, I feel like you're going to walk out. No, not at all. I, I'm just, I'm, uh. Is this it? Did you take this off? No, I'm intrigued. Okay. At, at, um, at that, I guess I've just, uh, I guess it's not even curiosity. My whole life, um, was just so surrounded around, like my parents, they're very lively and they love a party. What does that mean? Just they, they're just like fun party people. Yeah. Like I think really what it comes down to. And so I guess, you know, I remember being a kid and them taking me everywhere with them and we would go on holiday and they would go to a bar and there'd be live music. And I would stay there until three o'clock in the morning until I would fall asleep and they would still be up and hanging out and chatting. And I was always surrounded by music and dancing and people like having community and these joyous moments that as I was growing up, I was looking for my own version of that, of what they had and what they would go out exploring. And so, you know, they would always bring me in, but I was like, okay, how can I do this with my friends? And so clubbing and going out dancing was such a rite of passage. Almost the second I got a little bit older, I was like, I want to go dancing. I want to be free. I want to feel the music. And the sweatier I got on a night out, that was kind of like the badge of honor of like the fun night out, the story that you would then tell until the next weekend when you would go back out again. And I mean, one of my early jobs, when I was 17, I worked in the nightclub and, you know, I just have these, it just, it's so, it's such a big part of my life. And it's that sense of community. It's also how I feel in large groups of people at a festival, in a crowd, you share this like common language. It's so fun and joyous. And that connection that you have with a complete stranger who's next to you, but you both love the same song and you're just in this, but I guess you would have the same thing in a bar and at a show, at a gig, whatever it is. Yeah, singing songs. I came up playing like traditional music and like in corners and playing tunes with people. So I get it. So it's, it's, it's, it's a similar thing. It's just that, that one, it's that connection, that community. But can you still do that? Like you're Dua Lipa now. You can still, can you still go to stuff? 1000%. How do you, do you have to, you know, who was it we talked to the other day? Noah Khan. Do you know him? Yes. Yeah. Country art. Yeah. Country folky guy. And he had to wear, he told me he went to an Olivia Rodrigo show wearing a wig so he could be anonymous. Really? And go to the show. Yeah. That's what he could, he could kind of do it. You can go to clubs. You can do it. For sure. I mean, I, I, uh, yeah. You can get that joy. You can get that stuff. 1000%. And it's so much fun. And I go to the festivals and I jump in with everyone and I, I don't know. I just, I love it. I love going dancing and being out till late and like the funny stories that you get after a night out. And, um, yeah. It's all making sense to me a little bit more now because, because, because, well, first of all, first of all, I need to go to a club. Uh, I mean, I've been in them, I've been in them for like events and stuff like that. I got to go in and dance a little bit. Yeah. For me, like, I love it. I love throwing parties. I love a rave. I love, you know, um, in the summer I go to, um, Ibiza and during the whole week I chill. But on a Monday night, there's one club night that I go to and they just bring DJs from all around the world. And it's just a full fledged rave. Do they play your music? DC It's more hardcore. Um, but I find DJs from there. And then I, I, I actually had a couple of them remix some songs for, um, the record now. Like I had Chloe Kayak, um, remix training season and I met her on a night out and, um, uh, Adam Port is incredible as well. He's part of like music. And I, I got introduced to him at this club night. Well, what's making, when I say it's all coming, making sense to me right now is because again, reading about you is the story of you, which is well publicized is, is very interesting to me that your, your, your folks, um, moved from Kosovo to London to flee the war. You're born in, in the UK when you're 11, uh, you move back to Kosovo, uh, which is not easy to go back to your, to play sort of the place where you're like the place you have an idea of from your parents, you know what I mean? And then there's these shows, um, after Kosovo gains independence, they have these shows like 50 Cent and Snoop Dogg played there. That's right. Right. And all of a sudden, I guess you're around other people and dancing and there's probably something beautiful happened in there. Yeah. It's amazing. I mean, um, 50 Cent, uh, I'll never forget that he came and played in the, in the stadium and, um, people in Kosovo listened to a lot of hip hop music. So when I lived there, that was like this heavy influx of just hip hop. So it was a lot of like, um, Biggie and Tupac and 50 Cent and Snoop Dogg and, um, uh, Method Man and Red Man. Yeah. And that was my first show. They were actually the first to come to Kosovo. And that was like my first show I ever went to when I was 15. How are you going? I want to, I want to be up there. I want to do that. Um, I, all my dreams about music and performing involved being on stage. So I, yeah, but I think it was just like, it's just a dream, you know, I would see people on stage, but it was just like trying to figure out how you get to that, to that point. And I, I just knew that London was that place for me. Like I needed to be in a place where everything was happening. I needed to be in a place that I felt like, well, I mean, that was just bigger than Kosovo. It just at the time, like now I was having a conversation, um, about how much there's so many artists that you can discover from all around the world. And it's so easy to tap into different cultures and different places. And you just didn't have that, you know, you couldn't really be in Kosovo when, you know, when I was 15 and put music out and hope that, you know, someone might find you and that you just had to be in London. And I was just, I guess, fortunate that I was born in London because my parents had moved there. How old were you when you said to them, like, I got, I'm going to go back and become a pop star? I was, I was 14 when I started planting the seed. I was 15 when I moved back to London. But it was also along the lines of, I need to go back and finish my GCSEs and maybe go to uni, but also want to do music. And so, yeah. I've heard you ask them since, why did you let me go? Yeah. What did they, what was their answer? I'm a hard person to say no to. I thought it was going to be, oh, we believed in you. Oh, no, but they did. They wanted to get you out of the house. No, they were just so supportive and, and they just put a lot of trust in me. And I think their trust was also something that I didn't want to misuse. And the fact that they let me do that, I tried to be a good kid, you know. When did you know it was going to work out? Yeah. Your eyes widened. It's, it's just such, it was, I think for them, so scary when I was like, all right, I'm going to take, because I finished my compulsory school and then I was like, I'm going to take a year off and I'm just going to focus on music. And, you know, I don't know what it's like to be a parent, but I think now having conversations with them, it's, it's so daunting when your kid just wants to be like, I'm going to focus on music. I'm going to take a year off. I'm going to work different jobs and I'm going to try and do this. I think for them, they were like, okay, you sure you don't want to go to uni? You sure you don't want to like do that and that at the same time? And I was so headstrong on the fact that I'm like, I'm going to take one year and I'm just going to focus on trying to get my music out there in some way. And I guess even when I got signed, I didn't know if it was going to happen or I knew it. It was like, I quit my job in a restaurant that I was working in, in Soho. And that was enough to like go on was like, okay, I'm working on an album and I'm working on music. But it doesn't mean a lot until I had a song called Be The One that came out. And then I was starting to book some festivals and I was like, okay, I'm on stage. I'm doing what I love. And those rooms were getting bigger. I was going on a tour. I then supported Troye Sivan in America. Things were kind of changing and shifting. My first ever Glastonbury that I performed in, that was very early doors. It was the second Glasto that was just before my first album came out. That's when I felt like things are really shifting because I remember peering out from like the curtain, the show was in a tent and not very many people were out there. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to go out and have fun. And this is Glastonbury, it's my favorite festival. I'm just going to go and enjoy it. And it was being televised onto the BBC, that performance. And just as I had like gone up on stage, the whole tent was packed. It was like sardines. And I remember turning to my band and being like, oh my God, like there's so many people here. And that's when everything shifted for me. I was like, okay, things are starting to happen. And I just wanted to keep working. I felt like I was like strapped to a rocket. I just, that's the only way that I can describe it. Because I just, you know, took every opportunity that I had to work, to travel, to do more shows, to tour. I just said yes. And I just kept moving and working. And you can exhale and your parents can exhale a little bit too. Yeah. Things are happening. I listened to a couple of episodes of your podcast to get ready for this too. And then I watched you on Stephen Colbert. And you had a really lovely moment. I pay a lot of attention to interview questions and stuff like that. I think a lot about them. And he asked you to ask him a question. And I was so blown away by the question you asked him, to be honest. You asked him, I don't know if you remember, how does your faith intersect with your art? He's so vocal about his faith on his show. I think that's something that people really connect with Colbert in that way. And he's just so, his response was so beautiful. He quoted Henry James. And it's so profound. And I was, I think I was really taken back by him. It was wonderful. Similar to the question you asked Stephen about how does his faith intersect with his art and his career. How does being, when you talk about things like protection, and you talk about things like work, and you talk about things like drive, how does being a child of displaced people intersect with your art and your career? Do you know what I mean? 1000%. I think it almost has everything to do with it in a weird way. I think, having seen my parents adapt to so many different scenarios, to me moving from, you know, London to Kosovo, back to London, being adaptable. I think that in itself, all those things led me to the art that I'm making now into the way that I see things, the way my perspective is the way that I have this outlook on rolling with the punches that if things are bad, they're never going to be bad for too long, you're just going to be able, you just have to figure out how you navigate and move through it. And my work ethic is, is that of like an immigrant work ethic, where I just, you know, I feel like I need to work really hard to get to where I want to be like nothing's given. And nothing's taken for granted. And everything that I want, and everything that I have, I've worked really, really hard to get there. And that's something that I'm really grateful for. Because, I don't know, it just pushes me to do better and be better and really enjoy all the little things along the way. And see every baby step as a little victory, and not be like that wasn't good enough. But seeing everything as part of the journey. And yeah, I think it's, I think it's everything. Does it explain the scheduling thing like that you schedule your entire life to the 15 minutes? I wondered that. Yeah, you just want to fit a lot in. I just want to make the most of every single day. I, yeah, it's beautiful. That's beautiful. I want to make the most of every single day. But really, like I not not in in, I guess it Yeah, it sounds like cliche, but I try and fit in as much as I can and do as many fun things as I can and work as hard as I can. And that's why I feel like I can I can work hard and have fun and go on holiday and do the tour and see my friends and have time for yoga and maybe the meditation and, you know, see my siblings when I can. And it's all those things. I feel like, you know, my job takes up so much of my time. And especially when I'm on tour, and the schedule is so back to back, I miss out on a lot of things. So when I not on a crazy, regimented schedule of touring, then I I'm like, right? Yeah. How many dinners can I fit in? How much time can I spend with my family? How much time can I see my friends? Where can I travel? What can I do that, you know, isn't surrounded by a work thing? I have a weekend here. Let's go. Let's enjoy. Let's have fun. You know, whatever it is, make the most of it. I feel so lucky that this is my life and I get to do this. Why the hell should I not have all the fun that I could possibly have while doing so? And I love it. I got the I got the wrap up, but I wanted to tell you what a joy it is to get a chance to talk to you. How much I love the record. Thank you. How much future nostalgia helped me through the through the pandemic. Thank you so much. And I just love the way you think about music and art. And I really appreciate your time. Thank you. I really appreciate talking to you. You're an incredible interview. I was thinking, thinking that the whole time. Yeah. You're fantastic. Oh, come on. Yeah, no, for sure. So. So thank you. I've loved that.