Chinese Scholars’ Rocks

Welcome everyone to our virtual lecture today on Chinese scholars rocks or gongshi by Mr. Ian Ferguson. My name is Jia Wang. I'm the interim director of the China Institute at the University of Alberta. I'm so delighted to welcome Ian back to the University of Alberta, although virtually this time. We hosted him a few years ago on campus where he gave a fascinating presentation on the art deco influence in Shanghai. I'm sure today's lecture will be equally illuminating. I know Ian has prepared a lot of beautiful images and many stories to share with you. The University of Alberta acknowledges that we are located on Treaty 6 territory and respects the histories, languages, and cultures of First Nations, Métis, Inuit, and all First Nation peoples of Canada, whose presence continues to enrich our vibrant community. Mr. Ferguson's presentation today will be followed by Q&A. We encourage all our audience members to submit your questions using the Zoom Q&A function at the bottom of your screen, and you can submit your questions along his presentation. We'll try to save them to the end to answer them. Our featured speaker today is Ian. Ian is an independent scholar and curator who holds an MA in art history from Carleton University. He had previously served in the Canadian Foreign Service. His teacher about scholar stones has been Ms. Ke Ming Hu, a known authority and author based in the United States. Ian has published articles on a variety of hard art historic subjects in the Journal of Canadian Art History and the National Gallery of Canada online magazine. He also serves as a docent at the National Gallery of Canada. Without further ado, Ian, the virtual floor is yours for your presentation. I'd like to thank the Institute for this opportunity and to thank you in the audience for joining us. This may be the first time that there's been a public talk in Canada on this subject, so we're breaking together some new ground here. I chose this image for my title slide, and it's a fine example of Taihu stone, one of the most collected over the ages. The type is readily identifiable for its inverted form and perforations. It has been used both in gardens and in scholar studios. Also, because the stone's presence outside the Boston Museum of Fine Arts addresses right away the question, is this art? And my answer is a resounding yes, and I'll be taking an art historical approach to my talk. Even leaving jade aside, China is unique among the world's great civilizations in the depth and intensity of its love for stones. And this has deep roots in Chinese philosophy and culture. I will look at some of the remarkable ways in which artists, artisans, and collectors have sustained this attachment and innovated in their practices. Next slide, Christine. But I also wanted to talk about some of the people I met along the way in my journey, and the first of these to whom I dedicate this talk is my teacher and mentor who lives in the Boston area. She was tutored by her father, a noted expert in Chinese antiquities, and ran her own gallery after moving to the United States. With her many publications, lectures, and now museum donations, she's played a pivotal role in fostering international interest and appreciation of stones. Indeed, her recent donation of 60 stones to the Shanghai Museum will effectively integrate scholars' stones into a Chinese fine arts museum, where they have astonishingly been virtually absent until now. I met Kay Min 15 years ago at an Asian art fair in New York. Later that year, she invited me to a workshop in her home. With a hands-on approach, she soon had us handling stones to appreciate their tactility, and even writing poetry in their honor. So the learning and camaraderie brought me back, along with the traditional family recipes, for some refresher courses. Next slide. So where does Chinese stone appreciation come from? The short answer is nature. And since time immemorial, the Chinese saw mountains as special places close to the heavens and sources of inspiration. Mountains were a major recurring subject of Chinese paintings. To the Chinese scholar, a rock was a microcosmic mountain, and invited the virtuous contemplation of nature and its forces. The ancient Chinese philosophy of Taoism cherishes nature. It views the world as a reality filled with spiritual force. Next slide. Confucianism was also compatible with stone appreciation. For Confucians, nature is not only inherently valuable, it is morally good. Nature is seen as the source of all value, and the stones represent nature. According to my teacher, Kay Min, while rocks in the East are usually cherished for their rarity, size, and color, Easterners say that scholar stones share a telepathic connection with human souls. Next slide. A very early example, likely dating to the Han Dynasty, is given here. A specific term for the love of stones would be lithophilia, and a petrophile would be a person who loves stones. Another Western term would be a fetish, which in its non-Freudian, non-sexual sense could apply when an inanimate object becomes the object of affection and worship. This could be the case here. This rare example is actually accompanied by poems and testimonials by scholars dating back to the Song Dynasty, all attesting that this stone was collected in the reign of the Emperor Wu of the Western Han Dynasty. It was described by scholars as a dragon holding its head high and swimming underwater, or like a predator crouching on the ground. Pregnant women who prayed to it were believed more likely to bear with male children, and it's possible that supplicants placed their hand in the dragon's mouth, suggested by the dark patination. Kay Min Hu discovered this stone and considered the related text consistent with a Han Dynasty origin. Next slide, please. By the time of the Tang Dynasty, some 400 years later, scholarly interest had widened. In 826, the poet and administrator Bai Zhouyi spotted an oddly shaped pair of rocks while taking a stroll around a large lake on the Yangtze Delta Plain. He'd just been appointed prefect of the nearby city of Suzhou. He also happened to be one of China's major poets. He was so struck by these rocks that he had them taken back home. Then he sat down and wrote this poem about them. The poem is much longer, this is just an excerpt. He describes a dynamic process of finding, recovery, cleaning, repositioning in a garden, then used with his musician-scholars accoutrement and a wine jug. During this process, the stones are aestheticized, subjective meanings are given to them, they are animated and spiritualized. In addition to being a very poignant poem about aging and loneliness, I think this work can be seen as a kind of Rosetta Stone for stone appreciation. It explains why a stone can be raised to the dignity of an art object. It's discovered by the artist or collector amounting to a found object or a true Vai, if one wants to use an artsy term, the artist or connoisseur then decides it has beauty or interest and discerns its optimal mode of display. These are very advanced ideas, some of which only became accepted cultural theory in the West in the 20th century. In our own day, Ezra Pound with Café and Alan Ginsberg with Reading by Joyeux have transposed his poems creatively. From nature, stones now appeared in gardens as a stand-in for nature, allowing the same contemplation and admiration, but from the comfort of one's yard. Chinese classical gardens are shaped by rockery art, symbolically perceived as celestial clouds or mountains. The master of the Nets Garden is the smallest of the Suzu Gardens and demonstrates the designer's skills synthesizing art, nature, and architecture. Interestingly, these gardens are one of the first forms of permanent official cooperation between the People's Republic of China and the United States. The installation in 1981 of the Chinese Garden Court at the Metropolitan Museum involved the Suzu Garden administration and used the master of Nets Garden as the prototype. So rocks became a kind of cultural bridge between the two countries. Next slide. This was also the case in Canada. The Montreal Chinese Garden, part of the larger Botanical Garden, was constructed in 1991 by 50 artisans from Shanghai. The project required 120 containers of material imported from Shanghai, including 500 tons of Taihu stone. The Montreal Garden also has a small collection of scholar stones, the only one that I'm aware of in a public Canadian institution. Next slide. By the time of the Northern Song Dynasty, interest in stones had become almost a cult and had reached the imperial court, and it had also moved indoors around this time. If you could contemplate nature via rocks in your garden, why not in your studio? The emperor Huai Zong has been described as a notorious petromaniac. You can hear a painting and text of the emperor. He appointed a royal official to hunt for precious stones and allow bridges to be dismantled to let barges with huge stones pass. Unfortunately, he neglected his military and security, and in the desperate last days of his reign under siege by Mongol forces, the trees in his garden had to be cut down for firewood, and his collection of fabulous rocks were repurposed for use as catapults. So, you could say an excessive love of rocks may well have contributed to the collapse of the Northern Song Empire. Next slide. The earliest written lapidarium, or descriptive document, is Tu Wan's stone catalogue of the Cloudy Forest, dating to around 1126. Sherman Li, the director of the Cleveland Museum, and basically the one who built their Asia collection, says it still stands as a symbol of Chinese aesthetic sensibility, far advanced when compared with even later counterparts in Europe. Tu Wan may have been describing stones in the emperor Huai Zong's collection. We're not sure about that. His text includes 114 stones from varying regions, and his descriptions were a mix of poetic and pre-scientific description and legend. He also described how stones were altered by shaping, chiseling, polishing, and putting them back into a lake to give them a natural aged appearance. Especially prized were stones that had been sculpted naturally. Next slide, please. Still in the Song Dynasty period, we have Mi Fu, one of its greatest painters and calligraphers. He was also noted as an eccentric. At times, he was deemed Madman Mi due to his obsession with collecting stones. He was also known to be a heavy drinker. His treatise on stones enumerated four main aesthetic qualities, which are listed there. Besides these formal qualities, stones were admired for their resemblance to mountains or caves, particularly those believed to be inhabited by immortal beings. Some stones were appreciated for their resemblance to animals, birds, human figures, or mythical creatures. And we'll come back to that issue later. Next slide, please. So the image of Mi Fu bowing to a stone is a kind of milestone in the history of stone collecting. Legend had it that he attended a reception after his appointment as a magistrate. On arrival, all the important administrators stood waiting for him in the front garden. When he entered, he was struck by an imposing rock. He immediately called for his official robe and tablet of office, then bowed deeply to the stone, addressing it as Elder Brother Rock. He performed all the rites and obeisances prescribed for an older brother, according to the principles of filial piety and Confucianism. This was a shocking breach of protocol which has been evoked by artists even in modern times, as we can see here. Next slide. Now moving into the Ming period, in addition to Taihu, another favorite type of stone was Lingbi, which is queried in northern Anhui province. Lingbi rocks are dark and glossy in texture. They are esteemed as well for the bell-like sound they produce when tapped as well as for their striking appearance. Next slide. Another Lingbi from the Ming period, this time in a painting, Ten Views of a Fantastic Rock, by the artist Wu Bin. The artist took a month to study the stone before successfully completing its picture in ten different views. Each view is accompanied by the calligraphy and description by its owner, even noting the different tonality when the peaks were struck. These commentaries continued by subsequent owners into the 19th century and became part of the artwork which is many meters long but unrolled. This work was actually stored for safekeeping by the Shanghai Museum during the Cultural Revolution and later returned to its owners who took it to the United States. At that time, Wu Bin was not regarded in standard Chinese texts as one of the top Ming period artists or its export would probably have been blocked. But his reputation has grown in the 60s and 70s in large part due to Western scholars. The owner sold it in New York in 1989 where it became the first Chinese painting to sell for more than 1 million US. Interestingly, at that time, none of the top bidders were Chinese. However, the work sold again in 2020 for the equivalent of 75 million US at the Poly Auction House in Beijing, making it the second most expensive Chinese artwork. Moving ahead to the Qing Dynasty, I put this image up partly because if you see the children in the middle, they are either making a mountain of snow or a snowman or maybe even a scholar's stone. So I thought it was a charming image. Next slide. At this time, the earlier story about Ni Fu can now be told realistically in porcelain where techniques have become more refined. It was only during the period of the Yongzheng Emperor that successfully fired porcelain painted in black ink first appeared. This new technique allowed the illustrators to follow closely the styles of traditional Chinese landscape painting. This category of wares would have been among the Emperor's favourites with the simplicity of the design reflecting his discerning taste. Next slide. One of the great Qing Dynasty rulers was Jianlong, shown here shortly before becoming Emperor. He was a cultivated man, a poet, artist, and collector. He retired after 60 years on the throne to show respect for one of his predecessors, the Emperor Kangxi, by not staying or reigning longer than he did. On the left, we have a scene in his garden showing the Pavilion of Waiting for the Good Ages or the Pavilion of Auspicious Waiting. It uses stones to evoke mountain scenery. In this pavilion, the Emperor offered meals to ministers and officials on the 21st day of the 12th month of the lunar year. Next slide. This Emperor also enhanced the grounds of the Summer Palace. Here you can see several of the distinctive ying stones along the lake shore and in a courtyard. Ying rocks are traditionally prized for their intricately textured surfaces. The best specimens reportedly were found in caves filled with water. Next slide. This remarkable stone has its own story. According to the plaque, it was once known as the Stone of the Waste Roll. An official of the Ming Dynasty found it and thought it was shaped like a fungus and collected it. While having it moved to his home, he fell into financial difficulties and had to abandon it. Years later, the Emperor Qianlong had it moved to the Summer Palace and gave it this poetic name. The plaque also claims that it's the largest stone decoration in any Chinese garden, which I think is probably an exaggeration. Next slide. Closing out the 18th century is this further example of ying stone, this one at Harvard. I thought it was interesting that the gallery chose this non-Western object to help art history students and visitors cultivate close looking and contemplation. Museums generally strive today to encourage visitors to slow down and observe carefully, something that's challenging for people these days, but fundamental to visual art appreciation. Next slide. The previous Harvard example raises the question of how scholar stones found their way into North American museums. Here we come back to the name of the donor of the title slide, Taihu Stone, Richard Rosenblum. He was a sculptor and early collector beginning in the 1970s. With the help of a curator at Harvard, he started showing his collection in the mid-1990s. They, at the time, were the first museum exposure in the West to this type of art. Interestingly, it was a Western collector and curator who helped secure museum interest for this very Chinese art form. Even today, if you visit most specialized Asian art museums, you'll find bronzes, jade, paintings, ceramics, but rarely a stone. The quote on the left from the eminent Times art critic Roberta Smith shows the serious interest that Rosenblum's collection attracted. It also nicely encapsulates some of the mysterious appeal of these stones. Next slide. A quick look at stands and contemporary collecting. An appropriate stand with its stone becomes an integral part of the art object. Stones must be custom made, and it takes a real art to find a way to best display the features. Many of the stands display amazing craftsmanship, often in rare and precious woods. You can sometimes estimate the value of a stone by the degree of attention paid to the stand. The age of a stand can often be the only way to determine when a stone was first collected. Otherwise, all stones are old in geological terms. Ming period stands tend to be simpler in design, like the furniture of the period. Qing period stands are more elaborate. Next slide. Some stones merit a variety of stands and can be shown in different positions, and this takes a real artist to see the potential. A stand can help orient the viewer's gaze and heighten appreciation. Some stones have only one view, but others work like sculptures in the round. Next slide. This example, resembling a grazing alpaca with an elaborate three-point stand, was shared with me by Wundrun Benz, and together with her late husband, Willie, she has done a great deal to introduce scholar stones to European audiences and place them in museums. Next slide. The previous stone in this one illustrates the concept of pareidolia. Chinese collectors love stones that evoke particular forms of nature. Western collectors, on the whole, prefer more abstract forms. Pareidolia is a human trait and can be found in all the world's cultures. We have a natural tendency, visually, to see something recognizable in a form. Next slide. This famous example from the National Palace Museum attracts crowds and has even toured the U.S. Qing craftsmen have sculpted small indentations in the upper surface to resemble pork rind. The bronze waves evoke bubbling soy sauce. Next slide. Color was not one of Mifu's classical criteria, but is an aesthetic element that attracts contemporary collectors. Yellow wax stone and Laoshan greenstone are good bright examples. Colored stones tend to be dense and compact and smaller in size, and they're also easier to if you live in an apartment or a smaller house. Next slide. A very rare red lingbi variation now housed in the collection of the National Arboretum in Washington, thanks to a donation by K-Mean. Next slide. Some examples of green and yellow river stone and a red stone showing the range of bright colors possible. Next slide. My next section is going to do a quick visit to two outstanding private collections. The first belongs to Dr. Timothy Springer, who lives in the Boston area. He's a Harvard professor of immunology and entrepreneur in biotech. A decade ago, he saw promise in a fledgling firm developing mRNA vaccines and made an early investment. Has anyone heard of Moderna? He now owns 3.5% of the company, and Forbes magazine estimates his net worth at $1.9 billion. Thank you, Dr. Springer and Moderna. He designed his house to house his collection. And on the right, you can see him showing our study group an example of a river stone, or sometimes called Moor stones, because they resemble the sculptures of Henry Moor. These kinds of stones started being excavated in the 1990s, and I understand this particular color can actually come from 10 to 20 meters below the riverbed. Next slide. Some more examples from the Springer collection. On the right is an amazingly vitrified lava stone, which took this flattened ovoid shape on cooling and landing. My recollection is that it was ejected by a volcano in Hawaii, although the stand appears to be Chinese. He has two examples of these. The larger one is about 30 centimeters, and they're the only examples of this type of stone that I've seen. On the left, I believe he is with an example of petrified wood, which I think is non-Chinese, judging from the stand, and the fact that it was cut off flat at the bottom. Next slide. In the spirit of a Chinese scholar, Dr. Springer wrote a poem about this stone and had it inscribed. No, sorry, that's the next one. This shows... Can you go back one? Sorry. This stone in his garden, on a huge scale, he actually saw it excavated from a river in China and put on a flatbed truck, so it shows the extent he was willing to go to build up his collection. Okay, next slide. In the spirit of a Chinese scholar, Dr. Springer wrote a poem about this stone and had it inscribed. Apparently, the stone was so hard that several drill bits broke while incising the inscription. You can thus imagine the powerful forces of nature required to carve out these hollows, often done by fragments of the same stone whirling around in strong currents and abrading the larger parent stone. Next slide. Our next private collection belongs to Wei-Wang Chung and her husband, I.C. Chu. They are both businessmen, business people, very active in international circles devoted also to bonsai and suzuki, the related Japanese art of stone collecting and display. They have adapted their row of three villas to house their collection, and they will be helping organize the upcoming convention of Bonsai Club's International. Next slide. They had the privilege to visit their home for a private tour in 2019, and this stone gives you a glimpse of the panoramic views of the countryside that they enjoy. Next slide. Another example from their garden of peridoilea, this time in the form of a bison display cabinet. Next slide. After being blown away by the grounds in their collection, I was even more blown away when I visited the third villa in which room after room after room was set for a meal, but meals of stones on delicate oriental porcelain. As I mentioned, collecting in this vein reflects a very Chinese taste. Next slide. Now, after seeing these collections, you may be wondering where can you buy stones. Of course, online is one option, but some outlandish prices are being asked, so you have to be very careful. Occasionally, the major auction houses will have a sale. One place where dealers and serious collectors converge in late September is an annual fair at Alishan in Inner Mongolia. It's not an easy place to reach, three hours from the nearest airport. Clusters of dealers can also be found in Shanghai and Yunming. And next slide. This is a kind of stone you could find at Alishan. Next slide. There's also the Yuzhou International Fantastic Stone Fair held every two years, and the city's Kistler Museum, where unlike most museums, you are allowed to touch the objects on display. On the left, I believe it's supposed to be like a dragon's head. Next slide. So, in the 20th century, Chinese artists actively participated in reform movements aimed at nationalism and modernity, and China imported the artificial and hierarchical Western concept of fine arts, with an emphasis on painting. Traditional arts, such as carving stone and stands, were relegated to the category of crafts. They survived, but until recently, didn't benefit from teaching at state schools or collecting by fine arts museums. Here you can see a contemporary art gallery which has incorporated a stone in the same room as a socialist realist painting on the back wall, and other modern works showing that you can marry the two styles. So, the next section, next slide, will be a couple of international artists who draw inspiration from scholar's stones. First is Ugo Rondinone, a Swiss-American artist now based in New York. The unusual title of this work is based on an anonymous haiku poem with 17 words. Each of the 17 sculptures shares the same title with a different word capitalized. The National Gallery of Canada's version on the right has the word feet capitalized. It took the artist six years to complete the series, and he based his examples on scanned images of real stones. They require an observer to walk around the pieces for a complete appreciation. The Chicago skyline echoes the verticality of the installation. Next slide. Bryce Martin is a leading American abstract artist now in his 80s who remains productive and much in demand by both museums and the art market. Over his long career, he's explored new and varied ways to extend the notion of abstraction, and one of his series was inspired by Chinese calligraphy. It's clear from his studio and collection and neighboring landscape that stones fascinate him and inspire his work. Next slide. Now a different art form, the cinema, here is still from the film Parasite by Korean director Bong Joon-ho, which won six Oxfords in 2020, including Best Picture and Best Director. In Korean culture, these stones were called su-se-o. They were introduced from China during the Joseon dynasty. In the film, the stone appears three times. It's a different metaphorical function each time, first as a symbol of good luck, but really a cursed gift. Secondly, when it floats during a flood and is shown to be a fake, and finally as a weapon of a nearly fatal assault. Next slide. To close this presentation, I've selected three living Chinese artists who all draw inspiration from scholar's stones, but with very different results. Liu Dan is the modern-day master of rock and landscape paintings, and perhaps the dean of this group of artists. His works are in private and museum collections worldwide. He lives and works in Beijing. For his 10 differentiated views of the Honorable Old Man at the Fresh Ink Exhibition, he painted portraits of a prized Ming period rock in the museum's collection from nine different angles. The portraits hung on a curved wall that wrapped around the rock in a semicircle. The 10th view was a nearly 30-foot long landscape scroll painting, inspired by his interpretation of the rock. The Musée Guimet in Paris and the British Museum have also exhibited his work. Next slide. Zhao Meng represents a younger generation. He seeks to expand the boundaries of ceramic art by experimenting and pushing the capabilities of the material. At the same time, he's revitalizing classical forms and aesthetic sensibilities. Zhao worked for several years as a scholar-in-residence at Harvard, and he's now the executive director of the International Contemporary Ceramic Arts Biennale in Hangzhou. The artist has stated that he puts himself in the place of water, eating away the stone. These creations are incredibly complex, both to create and to fire in the kiln, where unpredictable things can always happen. Next slide. Zhan Wang calls these abstract forms floating stones, and they're large, highly textured, rock-like pieces coated in stainless steel or chrome. His work blurs the conceptual divide between natural and man-made. Some modern Chinese buildings have begun to exhibit his work at their entrances. The material's glittering surface and mirror finish gives them a material shape-shifting look. Wang also makes tabletop pieces for which he has traditional scholar stone stands fabricated. Vancouver was one of the first cities to recognize his work internationally, and a piece from the Biennale is now installed outside the city centre station. Next slide. We did have one with a video on it, but we may not be able to give you that. Sai Guoqiang is one of the first contemporary Chinese artists to break into the international arts scene. Many of his early works involve gunpowder creating patterns as well as explosive events. Lately, he's been working with life-size imitation animals and huge installations. He was exposed early on to Western literature as well as traditional Chinese art. In 2019, while visiting Naoshima Island in Japan, a place devoted to contemporary art, I noticed some of the artist's original sketches for this work in my hotel room, and was motivated to track down the main work outdoors. Based on the concept of bringing people from different cultures together, this work was constructed in 1998. This area of Naoshima's coast has strong energy according to the principles of Feng Shui. Visitors can enjoy stunning views of the inland islands of the Saito Sea. The Taihu stones sourced from China restore one's vital balance, and the jacuzzi bath symbolizing the coming together of Eastern and Western cultures, as well as the timeless intersection of traditional and modern elements. Guests staying at the Benisi House Hotel may indulge in a private experience every Sunday in which they can soak in Chinese herbal medicinal bath and enjoy a relaxing and reflective moment. Next slide. So, a couple of conclusions I reached doing my research that may draw some questions from you. So, that's it. Over to our moderator. Well, thank you, Ian, very much for that presentation with so many rich materials and stories. I'll encourage our audience members to submit your questions, sending your questions through the Q&A as we will go through them for the next about 15 minutes. So, Ian, it's fascinating when the scholar stones first became popular. It's really, as the name indicated, it's really popular among the Chinese literati, Chinese scholars. And I wondered, it's just, of course, as the famous ancient Chinese painter, one of the most famous, Mi Fu, was categorizing the most desirable features of these stones are the leanness and how open it is, how many channels it has, and how many wrinkles, interesting texture it has. It's really a small sort of representation of the cosmos. And it kind of inspires, as you say, poets and paintings and poetry. So, at the time, of course, the appreciation of these stones is considered almost like a fine form of art and almost reserved for the elites or those who are highly educated and highly cultured individuals. And later, of course, we'll see these stones with vibrant colors and interesting shapes that resemble actually items on a Chinese menu becomes popular. Do you see there's that transition from sort of a more of an elite form of art and appreciation to something more popular? Yes, I think that's what has happened. And I saw one estimate that there's something like three million collectors in China. So, it's not a mass cultural movement, but those three million are quite dedicated. And some of this, of course, was motivated by the rarity of the stones. It just became not possible to find some of the best Taihu and Lingbi. So, people branched out and found other types of stone. So, yes, it has become democratized over the ages, and perhaps has less intellectual and poetic connotations right now. But I think it's important to recognize those roots. Absolutely. And in terms of the cultural influence of these stones, and you mentioned one of the rocks showed up three times in this Korean film, Parasite. And in history, were there other cultures, especially in East Asia, also adapt this habit of appreciating these stones? Of course, most of them came originally from China, but were there records or poetry or paintings in the neighboring area of China in ancient times that are actually inspired by these stones? Well, I know that the Japanese tradition of Suiseiki is related but different. Their displays usually have a tray with a flat bottom. And the stone has often been leveled off so that it would look like a little landscape. And sometimes these can be displayed with bonsai. And there's definitely overlap among the people interested in that kind of collecting and that display. But I gather that the Japanese are very guarded about their tradition, and they want only Japanese stones to be used. So there's some kind of ongoing discussions among collectors and people about how to categorize these. So yes, they do get into other Asian cultures as well, influenced by China. All right. Ian, thank you so much for taking your time and sharing your knowledge, deep knowledge and appreciation of these fabulous stones. And I think sometimes in a time where there's a lot of chaos and restlessness around us, this sort of stillness, the tranquility of the stones, almost brings us to a space there where we can really ponder about the meaning of life and universe and also find that small measure of peace from the inside. So that has been quite a treat. Thank you, Ian, for this fascinating talk and for all the wonderful images and materials you have brought us today. And I would also like to thank all our audience members for attending this lecture by Ian today and share this time with us. And also just a quick little announcement later this week, on Friday, March the 18th, the China Institute will be hosting a panel discussion on a very different topic. It's going to be on the Russia's war in Ukraine and its strategic implications for China. It's going to be a panel discussion at 10 a.m. Mountain Time this Friday, just two days from now. So feel free to click on the link in the chat to register if you're interested. Thanks again for all of you to be here today with us. And thank you, Ian, for the fascinating presentation. Everyone have a great rest of your day. Thank you. Bye-bye.