EX-CIA Agent Unveils Thrilling Secrets | Episode 146

Tracy Abramson, welcome to the Bookaholic Podcast. Thanks for having me. >> Yes. So glad you're here. And this is all very exciting because I just can't wait to hear about victim number eight. So, let's just go ahead and dive right in. Now, you've written more than 45 best-selling novels, and that is a feat in and of itself, but Victim Eight, number eight, has already been praised as a taunt, electrifying thriller, and I think that was by Brad Thor, >> correct? Yes. >> Wow. >> That's incredible. So, what sparked the idea for this particular story? It started out the premise of the characters started in the previous book which is hometown vendetta. Okay. >> But a lot of the book for story for this one came from I did a little stopover tour in Istanbul on my way home from Singapore of all places. And I just fell in love with the city and I was like, "Oh my gosh, this would be such a fun place to have a backdrop." And I my former background is I used to work for the CIA and so I've used some of my knowledge of that part of the world and okay what can I do for a conflict and that's where the seed was born. Absolutely. Of course, your background as a former CIA officer gives you a unique perspective and I'm sure you're full. No wonder you've written 45 best-selling books to date because you got a great perspective and so much to pull from your career to write about. So, how much of your outside of what you just told us about the city, how much of your real life experience finds its way into Luke Steel's missions and authenticity of your thrillers? I think a lot comes in mostly I found early on in my career that every time I tried to write something that was from real life, my editors always said it's not realistic. And so, real life truly is stranger than fiction. And so it's mostly trying to bring real life down into what could be plausible. But just like the character Luke Steel, he's a military aid for the president. So he works in the White House. And the idea of that career came from a friend of mine who was worked with for the Marine Corps. And he ended up getting that assignment. And so he was up there for two years at the end of Obama's term and the beginning of Trump's first term. And just he was great guy. He gave me brought me and my husband in for a Westwing tour at one point. And then I was able to go up with his wife one time to to have lunch in the Navy Mass or White Hall mess depending on if you're Navy or Marine, they call it Navy mess. And if not, it's probably white house mess. But just little things like that of the little nuances of that's right down the hall from like to get to the Navy mess, you're passing the sit situation room. >> Oh my gosh. So things like that you don't it it gives you perspective in a different way. >> Yes. >> If you and it's not that I'd never been to the White House. I've certainly been there several times. But but going in there through his eyes and like seeing his office. The White House when you see it on television it's >> it's all these beautiful halls and great artwork and you go into the military aids office and it's it looks like this dive of an office. It's just [laughter] it's just a bunch of cubicles and guys just trying to make space work and it's seeing some of those back corridors and things like that and and I have a lot of friends who either are or have been in the secret service and so I really think a like said that I remember in fact another person who had done an endorsement on this book was Alex Finley and he and I had done a a master class with him a couple years ago and I loved his comment and I never thought of my writing this way. said, "Tracy, you write with authenticity." And I was like, "Okay, what is and everyone's, yes, that's what it is." And it's just people believe what I'm writing. And I was like, "Okay, so it's that ability to create a world where everyone can suspend >> Yes. >> that reality and say, "Yeah, this could happen." >> Yes. >> Absolutely. And that is a that is a master class in and of itself. That's an expertise thing to do to be able to whether it's a book or a movie to suspend our beliefs, you know, what's really real and you not say, >> you know, be cynical and say, "Oh, that could never happen." >> You sometimes say that, but still then you're still engrossed in the story and you finish the book and you finish the movie. And I think part of that too is also understanding the different cultures we're working out of because everybody to have a really solid manus novel or story everyone's not going to look like the author. And in this case having been through Istanbul it was very different than what I expected because it's a very heavy Muslim country. Istanbul is very cosm cosmetolog cosmopolitan. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, >> it's it it had it's very accepting of people of all cultures and while they're expecting everyone to respect theirs and absolutely you need to do that, but they they're very willing to help anybody. Westerners are very welcome and things like that. So, I think that was really enlightening to me to see the different gambit of people. I talked to a couple people who are Christian living in that area. And so that was another thing that was fun to weave into this book is >> right >> what is it like to be Christian in a largely Muslim area and I have to imagine that people who are Muslim in the United States have a similar like it's the reverse for them. So I think that again it's it's taking the time to understand and not write beyond what you know. I love that my publishers always have sensitivity readers and I know when this one came back they're like good job. I was like okay I like when I get that comment. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I watch a an influencer on YouTube and she was showing her travels to Istanbul and I was thinking Istanbul, why is she going there? And just as you described, the shots that she showed it was definitely I was shocked by watching that video. It's a cosmopolitan place. They had all kinds of chic restaurants. She was going to coffee shops. I was surprised. So yeah indeed I was very shocked by that. I thought it was war torn but obviously it's not. It's very beautiful as a matter of fact. [laughter] >> Victim number eight opens with a murder of an American journalist in Istanbul and spirals into a nuclear threat. So what kind of research did you do to keep the global reality while keeping people on the edge of their seats? So, one of the things that I had to look into is serial killers are not terribly common in a lot of other cultures and Turkey is one of them. It's it wasn't common. And that was one of the things I did. I went through and I researched the couple that I could find that were documented and it was like, okay, what was the kind of the behavioral analysis of these people so that I could get into the head of what a serial killer from that culture um might have as a motivation. And so that was one of the biggest things that I tried to do for research was just trying to get into that. It's hard to get into the head of a bad guy. >> Yes. >> And especially if the bad guy is a lot of times it's a mental illness issue. >> Oh, that's that's sometimes where it comes from. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. That that that's the first time that that's been bridged here on the show and that's tough. That's very tough. I can't even imagine. How do you handle something like that in your writing? I think a lot of it is recognizing that everybody has value. Inherently, we all have value. And so trying to understand that people who do bad things are probably they've been broken somewhere. We just don't know if they were born that way and that was just their life challenge or if there was some event that prompted or a series of events that caused challenges and such. But I think taking that worldview of we all have value. That doesn't mean I'm going to let someone who might cause me harm into my space. And we need to be smart on how we're doing that, but just respecting humanity in general and showing grace. There's a lot of power in forgiveness and saying, >> "Let's look at at looking at the good in people and hoping that we can overcome the bad." >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Luke Steel and Amberllin Reiner are both strong and complex characters. How do you balance high stakes action with the emotional depth of your pro protagonists? I >> I think it just happens. Like you for me, writing a book is like watching a movie and I just don't know what the next scene is yet. And so it drives me nuts that I have to figure out like, oh wait, what's going to happen next? When we're watching a movie, we want to see both what's happening, but also what these characters care about. And I think that's the biggest thing is you get to a certain point where everyone needs a little bit of a break from the action. And that's usually those lulls are where we can really dive into how are they hurting? What are they Yes. >> What do they want? What are their dreams? What are their hopes for? What are they afraid to hope for? So the more I feel like I can get into those aspects of the character, the more I feel like they become real and more dynamic. >> Is Amberllin a recurring character in this series? >> Oh, she is. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Now, Brad Thor, back to Brad, called your work smart, emotionally rich, and packed with international intrigue. How does it feel to receive that kind of praise from one of the genre's biggest names? >> Oh my gosh, it's amazing. And I will tell you, so the story behind me meeting Brad was even more like surreal is I was at Bowser Con last year and I was walking through the hall. I was had let was leaving my hotel room and was gonna go meet a few friends that like after dinner. It was like that before the awards but after I'd eaten >> and I walk by a couple of people and when I have this mental and I it's probably partially training and partially just instinct >> is you look at people and you're like >> friend unknown kind of thing. And if it's somebody that you know, it's okay. I've already imprinted and this I'm going to greet them or whatever. And I there were two people coming at me and I was like, they're unknown. Like they were not people that I had personally interacted with. And I come from an entertainment background. So it doesn't matter if somebody's famous or not. I still categorize that way. >> So I had done that quick glance of yep they are not friends. And at least at that point and I hear my and I hear my name and I was like Tracy. I was like turn around. Yeah. He's Tracy Abramson, right? I was like yes. He goes, "Hi, I'm Brad Thor." And I was like, "Wait a minute." I said, "How am I even on your radar?" And I know it's I'm sure it's from my background as CIA. He had checked the bios of who was coming to the conference and I was one of the people that was fortunate enough to catch his attention. Having the last name Abramson may have been largely to my benefit, but and then we had kind of a funny incident later that night. The funny thing was I think one of the things that probably helped solidify our or show that a friendship could happen was he and his I think it was his public publicist were heading to try to find something to eat and they had it where it was like an open invitation of hey you can join us and so I took a step toward to start I was like you know what guys you're probably going to have a better chance of getting something that's just the two of you I ate a late lunch so I'm just going to let you guys go and I'll catch you later and so I stepped back and it was was logical of I had these other friends that were going to be waiting on me and were expecting me to show up and it would be wonderful to get to know these gentlemen better. They had an agenda. They needed to get something to eat before this awards thing and I was like they'll have a better shot without me. But I think just the fact that I wasn't a oh my gosh you're Brad Thor and I if I could cling on to you and hang on to your coattails and maybe it'll benefit me in some way. I think showed that a friendship could happen. And the funny thing is I was not gonna ask him for an endorsement at any way, shape or form. And my publisher was such a huge fan. Please, will you ask him? And so I texted Brad and I was like, "Okay, please know that no is an acceptable answer. Like it is if this does not fit in your schedule, please say no. It is fine." And then he was very gracious and agreed to do it. And and honestly, he's an example of the thriller community in general. There are some really phenomenal people who are just so kind and giving in their of their time. >> Yes. Oh wow. I'm just my mind is just spinning. [laughter] First of all, I think I might have fainted had he called my name and knew who I was. That's incredible. That's incredible. And I and I commend you for stepping back on that. Not many people would have stepped back on that. I didn't even think about it until later, but it was because I had stepped back and hadn't had the conversation much time with them. Later that night, I ran into him and I was I walked up to him. I said, "Okay, I just have to tell you how surreal this moment was." Like, that was crazy. I'm like, "Where in the world did I even hit on your radar?" And so, that's what started the conversation. And then we ended up spending a couple of hours hanging out with a group of other people and such. And anyway, but yeah, he's and he's a great guy. >> Wow, that's incredible. I love that. I love that story. So now, as we said before, you've won multiple awards, including the Silver Fouch Falian judges top pick thriller. How do you feel your writing has evolved over the course of your career? And what keeps you motivated to push the genres in push the boundaries, excuse me, in your genre? So I think my mentality has been the same from day one is that I never wanted to disappoint a reader um >> and go to conferences and not just I normally I'm teaching or presenting at them but I go to a lot of classes as well or even just hanging out with other authors. You're always learning. You're always trying to learn more about the craft or even sometimes what the trends are and things like that. But that's been I want every book in the series to be better than the last one. You want everyone to be like, "Oh my gosh, I have to get the next one because the last one was so good that let me see what's happening next." >> And so I think that's probably the biggest thing with where a lot of the awards will come in is I don't look that I'm competing against other people. I'm competing against myself and my best work of yesterday. you want today's work to be better than anything you've done before or at least you make the attempt where hopefully people won't be disappointed in what comes next. Then as far as pushing the boundaries, I think I have a lot of friends that tend to write in my space and many of them are men. Many of them men and women typically are I have a great friend group of former intel, former law enforcement, former military and such. And what I'm a little unique in is that I typically where a lot of my friends write like for the Tom Clansancy estate and some of those high stakes military thrillers. >> I tend to write books that are more for people who they're not going to care about >> what specific weapon or caliber that weapon is firing. Not that I don't know the answers necessarily, but it's for a more probably a broader audience that it's a little easier to read and it also can read to a younger audience. But one of the other big things that I am very focused on and it just happens naturally is I don't have any foul language in my books. I don't have any intimacy that's on a page. I don't have there the violence is not graphic. And so if somebody is on a road trip with their teenagers and grandma in the car, they can listen to my book. And the blush factor is low enough that the 12-year-old can still be listening. And I've got 10-year-old super fans. And I love them. I love that I have kids who are reading my stuff and that they can. And that was honestly what got me started writing is I saw a huge gap there that >> there were kids who wanted to be reading in the adult market. >> But the content was eliminating so many books from their arsenal of what they could possibly read. And it's I'm not judging people who are putting that other content in. It's just for me that has been a brand and it's been very friendly to me. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. You touched on something. You mentioned that you have some friends that write for the Tom Clancy estate and then on the other side we see say James Patterson has different authors that he co-writes with. Is that something that you would consider uh writing for the Tom Clansancy estate or maybe partnering with I don't know how all these things happen with James Patterson or something like that? >> I've known people to do both. I've known some to do Jim Patterson's as well and I certainly would never close a door on anything like that. I think every opportunity is an opportunity to learn more and >> those Clancy Patterson they're >> Vince Flynn all of those they're masters they've done so much for the genre my thing is I couldn't do it unless I can do it my version like I have to do a clean version so if that's not friendly to them then I couldn't do it >> because I'm not going to change who I am >> in order to conform to something else and if that's not a good fit then that's fine. >> Absolutely. I love the way you stand your ground. So now for aspiring thriller writers, especially those who admire your ability to weave intrigue with emotional authenticity, what advice would you give them about crafting truly compelling suspense? I think remembering that the every story should be character-driven, I think, is one of the biggest pieces of advice I could give to specifically thriller writers because a lot of times in the thriller genre, we get so hung up on the research of again the caliber, the weapons, the background of the intelligence, all of that sort of thing that we forget to put the humanity in. And that's actually one of the things that I loved. I got some really great feedback and I didn't expect it from victim number eight is Luke Steel in this book is dealing with some emotional trauma and trying to overcome it and a lot of pe read early readers have loved that because they're like a lot of people don't go there but I don't go I don't go there as let me put a cloud over everything. It's more of a hey this is life >> and you can find joy even when you're going through hard things. >> So I think that's one of the things is >> don't be afraid to push boundaries and do something that's your own. I think following trends is never a good idea because by the time your book is ready to go, the trend's gone. So, I think we should all be trends setters. >> So, the same with creating videos. >> Yeah. >> It's so true. >> Every time I get around to them, the trend is gone. Yes. >> Oh, goodness. This absolutely anything in the creative world. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so of course we can find your victim number eight anywhere. Correct. >> Yes. >> Yes. So online, on Amazon, in bookstores. Try your independent bookstores first. [laughter] >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. And I'll actually have quite a few signings coming up. So we're doing a little bit I'll be little of everywhere. So that'll be fun. And all of those signings will be on my website. >> Absolutely. Sounds great. And what's your website really quickly? >> It's tracyabson.com. And you can see on the screen t r a c i ab a b r a ms o n. Absolutely. Tracy, thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. It's been great. >> Thanks.