We Wish You a Merry Christmas | The Roundtable

Well, welcome everyone once again to the Roundtable, your editors and publishers podcast at the American Mind here at the Claremont Institute. We just have a little quick morsel of a podcast and vidcast for you today. I'm your host Ryan Williams, president of the Claremont Institute and publisher of the Claremont Review Books and the American Mind. I am joined by associate editor of Primark View of Books and the U Tide editor of the American Mind, Spencer Claven. Uh we uh just >> chief >> chief elf. Yeah, that's right. >> Yes. >> Uh chief Elvin officer, the CEO. No, it can't be that. Um we uh we're going to be brief this week. Just wish everyone a very merry Christmas. Uh we will be back on the first week, full week of January. Uh Spencer and I are going to sit down for about an hour or so and talk through this very important case Trump v. Slaughter which was had oral had oral argument a week and a half ago uh before the Supreme Court and maybe the final death blow of the administrative state or at least the beginning of the end or the end of the middle. I don't know. We've had it for a long time now. But, uh, I wanted to run through some of the history of it cuz it's a topic I know pretty well, uh, and what it might mean for American government. And so, our bureaucracy nerds, uh, suit up, pour yourself some cocoa after the new year. Uh, >> and I will be on speaking on behalf of all the ignorant fools out there. I You're going to have to start by explaining to me that it's not actually Trump versus laughter, which is what I had previously thought. So, this is this is good. >> Yeah. Right. Trumpy slaughter, not Trumpy joy. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Uh it's one of it's you occasionally get these positively denzian names for court cases and Trump vy slaughter is pretty close. Um well, I hope everyone's settling in for a nice Christmas week and preparing for a uh festive but moderate and virtuous New Year's Eve. You know, we don't want to be absteious around here. We would never recommend such a thing, but um none of us are getting any younger. So, you know, don't don't push it too hard. Just enough. Uh what does Aristotle say about virtue? Something about just the right amount of eggnog with just the right people for just the right reasons. Right, Spencer? >> Or champagne in politics. Becker page 1439. Yeah, that's uh there's nothing more uh thrilling and exciting than virtue and moderation, let me tell you, which is actually true. It's brightly understood. There's nothing nothing worse will thrill really than merch in moderation. But yeah, just don't get trashed. It's not that hard. >> And I was going to give a a quasi cultural recommendation. Um if you partake of such things, uh we don't get out there every year, but we try to. We're definitely going this year. Go to a nice Christmas Eve mass. We're going to the early one because we have small kids. I encourage you all to do the same. It uh enriches the soul and reminds us why the the really the teological reason we're celebrating here at Christmas time. As much fun as uh the traditions with the kids and the presents are, uh it's why we're here. >> And I will say this is not the time for any of your low church shenanigans. You Protestants out there, I am one of you. I confess and will happily own the the title. I understand the theological objections to smells and bells and stained glass and all the popery, but if there's ever a time to loosen up your uh your severe Calvinist restriction on liturgy, this is it. This is the moment to just like let it rip. >> Yeah, exactly. Uh Mr. Sabbo is getting some rest slightly under the weather and then heading out of town for uh for his Christmas time. So, as I mentioned, we're going to resume first week of January. We're looking forward to it. But in the meantime, Spencer, I think you had some recommendations for folks as they try to take some time off and spend it with family, but they should also c uh cultivate the high things, which is part of your recommendation. >> Good point. Yes. Well, I think we both have a few. Uh there's so much good Christmas culture. It's just like an embarrassment of riches. And I always love hearing what people like. I think we do have now a substack, a CRB substack up with some of the editors, Rex from Clar of Books. I'm going to start by doing something that I hope I don't do that often on this show, which is log rolling for my other podcast, Young Heretics. It's a used to be a weekly show. Now it's kind of more like the every other week or even when I feel like it, but it's still a wonderful kind of uh way for me to nerd out about my weird pad obsessions. It's I feel it as like the classical education you didn't know you were missing. So, I'll pick some text or idea or you just finished going through a long long series on the Iliad, the Odyssey, and the Anid kind of telling the epic story all the way up from Troy to the founding of Rome. Uh, and that's the sort of thing that I do, but I always have an annual Christmas show. And this year it's about the season of Advent and specifically the music of Advent because you always get around this time of year and it's like everyone's really excited to sing all the Christmas carols. And then those of us who enjoy the liturgy are like no but wait it's it's Advent think of all the great Advent tunes like Come Emanuel and that's basically the only one. So this is an old long kind of exploration of the history of that hymn which is actually incredibly cool. The Okam Emanuel is took its present form in the 19th century but in some form or another. The ideas in it go back to at least the 8th century possibly earlier based on these texts called the O antifons which are so named because they begin with O. And an antivon is a call and response that you do as part of evening prayer in this case on either side of Mary's Magnificat, the song she sings when she finds out she's going to have baby Jesus. And each one is kind of about some it's it introduces a name of God like oh wisdom or oh Adonai or oh tree of Jesse etc. and then kind of works that out theologically into ways that as you say Ryan, the season is not just about getting presents, although it's definitely about getting presents, but it's also about this giant arc sweep of theological cosmic history that begins with the creation of the world and goes all the way up to the end of the world, which is also something that in our wonderfully weird way Christians celebrate at this time. we don't just remember the first coming but also the second coming which is the one that will uh is yet to to come to pass and will end end the world. So just like I love getting I love that the liturgy lets you get weird with this stuff so you can simultaneously be gathering around and drinking eggnog and opening presents and also like meditating upon how time is a flat circle and at the end of days Christ will come to reign in glory. like this is these are sort of go hand in hand in in high liturgy and that's one of the things I love. So I guess just the Young Heretics YouTube channel is where that is. Um what about you? >> Uh well one just came to my mind. I have not consumed the entirety of it but this is another uh Mrs. Williams recommendation and she was not wrong. I think her text to me was start listening to this. It's utterly charming from the beginning. And it is a free economics's radio threepart series sort of deep dive on the rise, popularity, performance, and history of Handle's Messiah. Uh they go over Yeah. They go over the pond and start interviewing folk, charming Englishmen who are obsessed with Handle's Messiah, >> singing in it, conducting it. Uh it's it's been a lot of fun, especially if you love that piece of music, which um >> Oh, yeah. >> years and years ago. >> Yeah. Yeah, if you don't love this piece of music, what's wrong with you? You have >> Yeah. Our dear colleague, Charles Kesler loves Handles Messiah and years ago. He was playing I think it was before your time, Spencer. He was playing in LA and he took as many folks as wanted to go. It was very nice. So, >> if you you have the time, go see Handles Messiah. It's uh >> I don't know that young children will really sit through it, but I bet 8 n 10 years old it work out pretty well. My other recommendation uh Spencer was recommending the high things. I have I have low things to recommend. Well, but low just the sense of bodily pleasure. Uh no, this is not going where you think it is. Get your mind out of the gutter. >> Yeah. Did not sign up. It was not warned that this is going to happen. Yeah. Go. >> Food and drink. Uh >> ah a 30th anniversary edition uh of Marella Hans that's spelled like Marcella. The essentials of Italian cooking is out. It's an indispensable reference guide and has some fairly easy, wonderful Italian recipes in in it. If you are into that sort of thing, it makes a great gift, but you should all own one if you like cooking and you like Italian food. And then uh this is another something I learned of from my wife's knowledge of famous New York speak easys. Uh there's one called Please Don't Tell, PDT for short. I mean, none of these are speak easys anymore. It's all sort of a gimmick. Uh but it has a wonderful cocktail book which you know some are a bit fussy. They're pretty fancy some obscure liquors but uh or lures I should say among other things but the PDT drink book uh is worth would make a nice gift and at the very least will inspire you to up your holiday and otherwise cocktail game. So >> that sounds great. They they all have names like that and it's funny some of them actually were speak easys during co right they there was this trendy thing of like having the speak easyy vibe and then briefly we entered this bizarre era where you couldn't go out to drink and the the fake speak easys shut down and the normal places became real speak easys. So yeah, it's like kind of a a throwback to a throwback to a throwback. But um I visited one in New York this past Thanksgiving that was called oh I'm going to forget the name but it was the same thing. It was like you know never don't go or like you know sometimes of great notion. So they all those weird names. I also have a low one. Um but first of all it should be noted that Amelia as yet completely undefeated in her recommendations. Once again wrap one up for the boss for the queen. Um, but the Have you gotten to the part yet where the soloist in the first performance of the Messiah is like this famously scandalridden woman of the theater and everyone it's like her first performance back. There's some great story about that, I think. >> Oh, no. I haven't gotten there yet. I'm very early in it, but but it I've only listened to the first 28 minutes, but it it's awesome. >> Yeah. No, that that's the the whole I mean the piece is incredible and like that we there was one performance in LA that was a sing along like you could go and they would give you the score and at the big Hollywood course at the end you could like join in. I don't know if you're still doing that. Um my lowbrow wreck is just the two great cartoon specials. I know there are others but if you think they are the greatest, you are wrong. That's okay. It's Christmas. I have a spirit of generosity toward you. But if you're watching the raisins play their guitars or whatever instead of these um you are grievously in error range you need to mend your ways because the two really good ones are um how the Grinch Stole Christmas the cartoon Boris Caroff which you alluded to earlier Ryan >> the original one. Yeah >> exactly. Yes. note. None of this Jim Carry on says I it's not Jim Car's worst performance, but it's just it's way bloated and unnecessarily overinflated beyond the pure excellent simplicity of that of that cartoon. And then of course the Charlie Brown Peanuts Christmas special. It's Christmas Charlie Brown ending with a maybe not actually that lowbrow recitation of the Gospel of of Luke. uh which I think Charles Schultz insisted on along with having real children do the voices because he was a devout Christian of course American e execs being what they are some things never change even back then they were like these the people won't appreciate this like religious stuff people don't want that Bible up in there um and of course it's one of the classic moments of all cartoon television uh and suitable for children so you know what's not to love >> I hope I know you're a man of taste and discerning judgment, Spencer. So, on the non non-an animated side, I assume you're a fan of A Christmas Story. >> Yes, I see you too are a man of quality. Um, I am a fan of A Christmas Story, although I came to it fairly late and have only seen it once, but yes. And the other one I won't hear a word spoken against is its Wonderful Life. There's a lot of It's Wonderful Life hate out there on the internet at least. But it's like a Dickens novel in that if you revisit it, you find it's much much smarter and grittier and better than all of its detractors make it out to be. >> Yeah. I al I've also received cuz I got it fresh off the presses the first issue, but for the rest of you subscribers out there, the CRB Perfect Bound double anniversary issue chalk full of wonderful reading uh is on its way to your mailboxes. If you have not yet received it, we have a couple pieces um more than a couple up at clarreviewbooks.com from behind the payw wall. Uh Chris Caldwell on Zora Mani. Um Charles Kesler on 25 years of Claremont Review Books which is adapted from his talk that he gave to us uh at our November 6th CRB New York 25th anniversary celebration. So go check out claremviewbooks.com. We're excerpting a couple uh as we go on the American mind as well. Uh one last flag on the American mind uh for your holiday reading, maybe in preparation for our Trump v. Slaughter podcast is R.J. Pasta's excerpt from his new uh provocation, which are these pamphlets we put out at the Center for the American Way of Life on the Trump administration's progress on dismantling the administrative state. We're gathering a bunch of respondents to that. So, keep an eye out on that features homepage uh at the AmericanMind at americanm.org. >> Oh, are we optimistic about Christopher Nolan's Odyssey or >> or filled with semi- dread? >> I thought this was supposed to be a short episode, Ryan. How much how much longer do we have? Boy, I am I wouldn't say cautiously optimistic. I would say studiously optimistic. I'm I'm gritting my teeth in optimism, if that's a thing, because I really I like a lot of Nolan's stuff. He's never made a movie that I thought sang just worked in every possible way. Maybe the Batman movies, but every movie he's made is interesting, has great stuff in it, and then doesn't quite hang together the way I wish it did. I think like the one about dreams, Inception is a classic example. It's beautifully done, wonderfully imagined, but in the end of the day has the philosophical sophistication of like a dorm room conversation you have with your roommate at 3:00 a.m. after a bong hit. You know, like where how do we know if we're really dreaming? Whereas, uh, you know, Interstellar like doesn't quite make any sense because it's a time travel story, uh, but is very, very beautiful and full of rich social commentary. So, I feel like, you know, this is a this is good material for him in that it's supposed to be heightened and elevated and dramatic and in a word epic, which he's really good at doing. He cast a goddess at least. He cast Zaya as Athena. And a lot of people hate Zendaya. I don't mind her that much. I just think if you're going to make Homer, you can't do what all of these modern directors have done for so long and try to secularize it. like it's just not a poem. The poem doesn't make any sense if there's no metaphysics in it. And so people try to just like take that out or psychologize it away. And this is one of the many problems with with Troy, which nevertheless like had a certain verve that some of the stills and opening shots from Nolan's Odyssey seem to lack. Um, so I guess a lot of people feel like it's going to suck. I'm holding out hope that he's going to find a way to do do it justice, but I I you know I the bar is pretty low cuz I hated the return that the movie that came out about Adysius's return a while back. Um I'll tell you one thing I love is Epic the uh kind of concept album which is basically a musical of the Odyssey um by this guy on Spotify who just started making them and going viral. It's very loose in that he does a lot of stuff to make the story more palatable to kind of modern um moral sensibilities. Not woke stuff exactly, just like, you know, he makes Adysius more faithful to Penelopey than than he actually is in the poem and that sort of stuff. Um, but it's so full of life and kind of musical theater paos and drama and the gods are very real characters and all the monsters are there and I just think like like that's so much more so much closer to what you have to do with these poems to bring them bring them back to life and I worry. I don't know. What do you think about the Nolan? Have you seen any of the Nolan trailers? >> I just saw the the first I guess it's the first complete one that they posted on X. Um, >> yeah. And I no immediate red flags in that little segment. Uh but that you know that that that pudding will be we'll see in the eating. Um I uh I guess my one descent from your uh discussion of Nolan's films. I think one was nearly perfect which was Dunkkirk. Uh >> oh. I haven't seen Dunkirk. I hear it's kind of a slog. >> No. No. I don't think so. I don't think so. It's very um the pacing of it is very interesting and innovative and creative and I I thought there wasn't really much of a bad note at all in that movie and it's uh it's uh yeah, so I recommend it. I love Dunkerk. >> That's making me realize is he also Momento or am I confusing him with somebody else? >> Oh, we should know this. I >> we should >> I'm pretty sure that's Nolan. I >> Yeah, that's near-perfect movie also. So, I take I take back my >> if we if we've if we've misnamed the director, please forgive us, but I'm pretty sure that's >> honestly if you're listening out there and you are the director of Momento and you're not Christopher Nolan, we do apologize, but great movie. >> Yeah. >> No, I think that was his breakout um sort of popular debut of sorts and has quite a cult following. So, it's a a real um mind bender of a movie. Uh well, good. Well, I think we should let everyone go back to their families, to their warm hearths. Uh, a belated happy Hanukkah to our Jewish listeners and watchers and viewers. And I will say, uh, keep your intellectual stocking stuffed full with content from americanm.org, claremontbooks.com, dc.claremont.org, and of course the homepage, uh, claremont.org. And if you feel so moved, if you have supported us in the past, thank you. If you support us this year, thank you very much. But there is still time at claremont.org/donate to get a little bit of a tax relief with a nonprofit contribution to the Claremont Institute. Uh we're at our halfyear mark in the fiscal year and it's going fairly well so far. So help us uh finish with a real bang. big year next year with America 250. And uh keep an eye on all of our websites for the various ways in which we celebrate 250 years since the Declaration of Independence. And uh with that, I will bid everyone a merry Christmas and a happy new year. We will see you the first week of January. And uh so I can't say we'll talk to you next week. Talk to you in a couple weeks. But merry Christmas, Spencer. And uh we'll see you all soon. >> Merry Christmas, Ryan, and happy new year. God bless us everyone.