Ruth Wilson - Aging Naturally, Working with Emma Thompson and playing Emily Maitlis

I remember first watching myself from the back of my head on a screen, because I was like, God, I never see the back of myself. That's how I walk. If I wasn't an actor, I wouldn't. I don't think I'd think twice about the idea of having work done just because you have to look at your face. Your face is on a poster. It's on a lens and you're pumped up to this size. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that delves underneath the surface of success to discover how our failures really shape us. Before we get into this conversation, please be sure to tap the subscribe button, because it really helps other people find us. And it means that you will never miss a single episode. The actor Ruth Wilson has made a habit of tackling psychologically demanding roles since her 2006 breakout in the BBC miniseries Jane Eyre, a role she was cast in straight out of drama school, Wilson has garnered awards and critical acclaim for her portrayals of complex women, whether it's a mother grieving the loss of her child in The Affair, a sociopathic research scientist in Luther, a villain in His Dark Materials, or whether it's Wilson's stellar stage performances as Hedda Gabler, Anna Christie or Cordelia in King Lear. She brings a fierce intelligence and inner emotion to each role. Along the way, she's been awarded two Olivier's, a Golden Globe and an MBE. She was raised in Shepperton, Surrey, the youngest of four and the only daughter of Nigel, an investment banker, and Mary, who retrained as a probation officer after raising her children. At her all-girls Catholic school, the 11-year-old Wilson was a nascent feminist who often questioned authority, at one time taking in a facts of life book and informing the nuns that their pupils absolutely needed sex education. There were no actors in Wilson's family, or so she thought, until her grandmother died and it emerged that Wilson's grandfather, Alexander, had been a bigamist and a spy. Some hitherto unknown relatives emerged. It was a story that she later portrayed on screen in 2018. Now, Wilson is back with Apple TV's Down Cemetery Road, based on novels by Mick Herron, who also wrote Slow Horses. Wilson stars opposite Emma Thompson as an art restorer swept up in a high-stakes crime drama. I think it's important to face things you don't want to see, Wilson says about acting, because only then will you grow. Only then will you live properly. Ruth Wilson, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you for having me. That quote you gave about a specific play that you saw, it was Carole Churchill's play, Here We Go. I was wondering where that came from. Yes, yes. Which you describe as a life-changing experience. Yeah, it was the most... You go to plays sometimes and it's when they have a huge effect on you and you think, OK, this is why theatre is important, or why it can make such an impression on you. And this is a play written by Carole Churchill. It got, like, one stars across the board. I thought it was the most incredible thing I'd ever seen. It was about death, really. It was about facing death and the end of life. And it was three sort of acts. And the first act was a group of people at a funeral talking about this person who died. And then individually, they all stood out and looked out at the audience and said when their time to die was. And it was just the most uncomfortable thing to watch. People were walking out of the theatre because it was horrible. It was so awkward. It's, like, painful. But I was like, this is amazing. It's making me feel so many things. And I'm watching people walk out because they can't bear it. So I was like, wow, no, we have to feel this. This is what's going to happen to all of us. I thought it was so interesting, that analysis of the power of art to confront, given that the young Ruth Wilson was confronting her nuns about, you know, teaching sex education. Is that something that drives you, the need to challenge whoever is watching? Yeah, I think so. I think there's a sense of, come on, think, feel. You know, only then will you be able to sort of reflect and learn or have empathy or, you know, move forward. And I don't know, I think that's what we do as humans. It's like our gift as a human is to be able to think and feel. So do it and be challenged. Be challenged by what makes you scared. Be challenged by what disgusts you. Be challenged by those things. Question why it disgusts you or why you're upset by it. And in Down Cemetery Road, you play this character who feels she's being lied to and wants to call that out. And part of what I loved about it was seeing you and Emma Thompson, these two powerhouses, these two female powerhouses. And it struck me how rare that still is. Yeah, it is very rare. And in a show like this as well, which is a sort of crime thriller, it's not two women talking about a man. You know, it's two women on a mission being shot at and on boats and planes and automobiles and everything else. And they're really funny and dry witted and complicated and petulant and childish. And I mean, what we all are as humans. So it was a joy to do that and to work with her and find some sort of fun dynamic between the two of us. It's really rare, really rare in the space we're in. And a shame that it's still so rare, actually. I know now that Tess Daly and Claudia Winkleman are leaving Strictly. What are we going to do? It's you and Emma. Oh, my God. The natural airs. Hey, bring it on. BBC, we're ready. Now, it's not the first time you've acted in the same project as Emma, but I think it's the first time you've seen each other on set because you were in Saving Mr. Banks, where you played her mother. I played her mother, strangely. I mean, yeah, I mean, I've aged well, but no, I played her mom. I never had a scene with her. I was kind of a depressed mother and we met on the red carpet afterwards. So this is not you know, that was just a we had a photo opportunity together, really, for that. So, yeah, this we actually get to play with each other. And it was the script is so good because it's not like there's one obvious lead. I mean, she's the sort of more bolshie, older, wisecracking character. But my character is quite surprising and reckless. And so I think we kept surprising each other and the writing kept surprising us and, you know, who we were playing. So it was really fun to do because we kept sort of taking the lead from each other or undercutting each other. And it leads to a really fun dynamic. Do you think you've learned from watching her work? Yes. She's so free and easy and throws everything away and doesn't seem to care about anything. I was like, wow, she just she's got so much freedom and lightness to the way she works. And I thought that's really I want to do more of that. So it rubbed off on me during it. And certainly for a piece like this, it's not, you know, it's not like really intense emotional material. So just have fun with it, throw it away. And she's there's a lightness of touch with her, which I think is really special. And then she can switch on the emotional depth when she needs it. We'll get on to your relationship with the creative process later. Yeah. It pertains to one of your failures. But before we do, I also want to ask you about the fact that you and Emma are by any token two phenomenally beautiful women. And you are also women in the Hollywood public eye who have aged it naturally. And again, it struck me how rare that is to see and what an act of bravery is when it shouldn't be. It's really hard because the pressure is on. Everyone does it. Everyone does something to their face and it's all available now more than ever. It's it's sort of, you know, you either just you either choose to sort of join your peers and put stuff in your face and make yourself look. I don't think it makes you look younger. It just makes you look like you've had stuff done. Like if you look at people who are 60, 70 and someone's had work and someone hasn't, they don't really look different ages. They just look like someone's had work and someone hasn't had work. But so it does feel like you have you make a choice. And it's sort of I don't know, it's difficult in my industry. If I wasn't an actor, I wouldn't I don't think I'd think twice about the idea of having work done just because you have to look at your face. Your face is on a poster. It's on a lens and you're pumped up to this size. Your face is made bigger in a cinema screen. You know, you're like, oh, you can see yourself aging. Let's get into your failures, because you did this very generous thing. You gave me your failures, the sort of one sentence failures. And then yesterday, I got this extraordinary essay that I said beforehand, I was like, this has done my work for me. I thought I'd give it more context. It was a way of me processing what I was thinking about. Your first failure is your failure to get into Oxford University. Yeah. Which for an overthinking perfectionist, I imagine is tricky. But tell me, first of all, like why you applied or who was it who told you that you should? Yes, I was thinking about this as like a sort of superficial failure because it's not something I hold a lot to now and don't think I really did at the time, but it was interesting sort of why exactly why I applied and what it meant to me. I was I did history at I was at Esher College at this point. I left the convent. I'd gone to Esher College. I spent two years there. I loved it. I was my best years of academia. Like I was doing classics, theater studies and history. I got on really well with the teachers. I adored it. But I was harboring a secret desire to act. My theater studies teacher told me you should give it a go. But I never mentioned it to anyone. I thought it was a complete pipe dream. I didn't believe it would really be possible. But I was harboring this secret desire. So I thought, OK, I'll go to university and I'll do acting on the side. I didn't know how to get into acting. So I just, you know, and someone, my history teacher said, you should apply to Oxford. Yeah. OK, actually, I know a lot of actors, including Emma, who went to Cambridge, but a lot of actors who I admire. They got into acting by going to Oxbridge. So that's a way to get into acting. Yeah. Completely putting the academia side aside and thinking I could even do that. So I thought, yeah, OK, I'll apply. And I did one of the worst interviews, I should think, ever. Why was it so bad? My history teacher told me I'd done some prep with him and he told me, OK, if they come up with a subject that we haven't studied, just tell them you haven't done that, you haven't studied that. And I found myself saying that over and over again in the interview. And I think it was a way of me not answering the question or if I didn't know the answer, I'd just go to sort of response. I found myself saying it over and over again. And they're looking more and more disappointed in front of me. And then there was another part of the interview. You had two interviews over a weekend. And the other interview was with this guy, he was going quite well. And then he asked me, so where do you live? And I said Shepperton. He said, what kind of house do you live in? And I said, well, it's an old Victorian house. He said, OK, so who do you think lived there when it was first built? And I was like, mind blank. And I go, that's my clown a bit. I just go completely blank. And I said, oh, actually, it is interesting because on the side of the wall of a house, people have scratched in their initials who've lived at this house. So he said, well, oh, right. So who lived there? And of course, I hadn't ever looked into who those initials were. I didn't know who they were at all. I showed no curiosity about who had lived in the house. So I think they were like, OK, she's definitely not. You know, this isn't someone we want. She's got no interest in history whatsoever. And it was kind of I think it was a disingenuous reason as to why I wanted to go to Oxford. I didn't care about the academia. I wasn't really interested in studying history. I love history, but wasn't that interested in it. And I was sort of that was revealed in the interviews, really. And I wasn't. My dad had gone to Oxford as well. So I kind of felt maybe I should follow his footsteps. But I wasn't confident enough in saying what I really wanted to do at that point. And I'm so interested that you felt you shouldn't be open about your desire to act. Why was that, do you think? I think from where I grew up, no one in my family had gone into acting. No one in my family was an artist of any sort of note. We all did sport. We all did normal subjects. We were kind of very conventional. The idea of going into acting seemed completely absurd. And I sort of felt it didn't come from anywhere. I didn't feel like there was a path that I could follow. So I felt a bit silly. I thought everyone had those pipe dreams. Everyone wanted to be famous or sing, you know, a singer or an actor. And so I just thought maybe this is a sort of silly pipe dream that I have. So I had to I was pursuing it really secretly. And it was only when I went to I went to university and did study history at Nottingham where the stakes weren't so high in a way. And there I found a really amazing community of friends. Who are now very successful in the industry. But we all did acting in this little theatre society. And that's where I directed for the first time. And we produced plays. And we took a play to Edinburgh and New York and all sorts. And it was where I got to sort of explore my passion in a safe environment. And it was where I decided, OK, I've really got to give this a go. And that parallel I drew between you and your grandfather in the introduction is actually a parallel that you've drawn. Rather than my projecting what I believe to be. Yeah. But do you tell me more about that? Because then did that make sense of your desire to play other parts? Completely. I mean, my grandfather was a fantasist. I mean, he he wrote 27 spy novels and he had numerous wives and lots of kids and very odd guy. He was a liar, you know, and that's I mean, actors. I don't really think they're liars, actually, actors. They're sort of we live in alternative universes, though. And so I could see where the capacity of imagination had come from and where that creative imagination had come from. And it was that line of the family, which was really surprising to me because my dad is quite straight, you know, when I guess like you said, he worked in the banking and in London and gone to Oxford and was quite a sort of conventional life. So it did make sense to me suddenly that I had this other very imaginative, creative side of the family. And his other sons from different families, one had been a jobbing actor his whole life. One had written poetry. So I thought, oh, OK, we do have a creative strand in the family. It's not completely mad that I've gone into this world. And what do you think the overall lesson is of this failure? Reflecting back on it? I don't know. I mean, part of me thinks that's what I think is a bit of a superficial failure in a way. It's like I don't I think it was more about trusting instinct. Like I knew it didn't feel I didn't feel that Oxford, I would thrive at Oxford. I knew that. I knew going there, it was like not really me. It felt I felt flattered by people saying you should give it a go. I felt like, oh, maybe I should carry on, do what my dad did. Maybe it's my way into acting. The actual, you know, I didn't have any real desire to be at Oxford doing history at all. So it felt disingenuous. I felt like and when I went to Nottingham, I felt instantly at ease there. So I suppose it's something about instinct. Maybe it's about instinctive choices and that I I wasn't admitting to really what I wanted or what I felt was true. And it was it was revealed to me quite quickly. There's an interview by those interviewers. Yeah, OK. There's an interesting interplay here between truth telling and lying. Yeah, because you describe your grandfather as a liar and yet had this imaginative, yes, fantastical bent. And then you said, I don't think actors are liars. And I agree with you. I don't think they are. I think they're truth tellers and they use performance as a vehicle for telling that truth. Yes. And this failure is all about you understanding the truth of yourself, really. Yes. Yeah. And it was a long journey of like working out, being honest with yourself about what you really want and having the confidence to say it. And I think that was also for me, it took me a long time to gain the confidence of my my truth and my instinct. And I think that whole interview, I was lying all around. I wasn't lying. I was sort of trying to cover and like even the way I reacted. He asked me about who do you think lived in the house? And I just rather than sort of coming up with some or even saying, I don't know, actually, I'm not sure I would. Oh, you know, there's something on the side. I would keep trying to sort of lie my way out of something or bullshit my way out. And I think, you know, we're similar ages. Yeah. And I think also for women of our generation, we're in that interesting spot between first wave feminism. Yes. Yeah. We're caught between. Exactly. Yeah. And I also experienced that that sort of desire to please others and to perform to please others. Yeah. Leading me further and further away from my actual self. Yes. And then there was a big implosion in my life. And then I was like, oh, right now I get it. Now I have an opportunity to live authentically. Yes. When do you think that happened for you? Was it this Oxford experience? No. I mean, I think Nottingham made me. I mean, when I was there, I was with a group of great people, like minded people, and I found my community. I think it was also that it was like you were surrounded by people that perhaps were more confident in their desires. And it was similar to your. Do you mean you sort of found people that also were honest about what they wanted to do? And lots of them, we'd done all these plays together and lots of them said, OK, I'm going to go to drama school. And I was like, oh, they're going to I ******* want to go to drama school, you know, and I think it was that that was the sort of moment of clarity for me. And I gave myself two years to get a job. I was like, OK, I if they don't want me, I won't. I'll do something else. And you went straight into Jane Eyre. It was my second job. Yeah. And it was it's almost 20 years ago now. 20 years next year. I just wonder if you'll indulge me because I just want to say that the affair. Yes. Particularly the first season. Yes. Changed how I thought about storytelling in the most extraordinary way. And, you know, I also write books and it really helped me with plot and everything. Yeah. It was amazing. You were amazing. What was it like that first season? Did you feel you were doing something really special? I didn't I don't think we ever knew it was going to be a massive hit or it was going to work. You never do quite. But I knew it was fun to do. And I was really I loved the challenge of it. And then, of course, it came out and it. Yeah. You know, you sign on to however many seasons. I remember Dominic and I at the Golden Globes, you know, won the Golden Globe and we were told everyone was so shocked to come out. And we're looking at him and going four more, five more years. We've got five more years now. This is Dominic West. Dominic West was like five more years. Shit. Are we ready for five more years? But it was it was amazing. And the cast were amazing. And it was really like you say, it's such an interesting, obvious way of writing material or putting a story out there that hadn't been done often. And often that's the best, always a simple approach to something, which it seems obvious is the best way. You're very good at accents. So obviously, you nailed an American accent for the affair to the surprise of many people who would then meet you in the street and be like, hang on a second. But you also portrayed Emily Maitlis. And you nailed her voice. No, I love playing her. That was great fun. She's great. She's great. Yeah, I mean, what I love, she just I thought she loves being Emily Maitlis. I mean, but I was like, I love I love playing her for that. It was sort of she's fearless. And she I mean, she does have doubts, but not many. I was like, wow, you're amazing. And I loved her hair. As soon as I put the blonde wig on and put my contact lenses in and put the voice on, then I was just Emily and her big boots. And I loved I loved playing her. She lent you the original jacket from the Prince Andrews. She did. And her handbag, which was covered. You know, it's like a really expensive handbag she's had for years. And inside, it's all got ink, pen ink on the inside. I was going to put my name in there. Ruth was here, which I didn't attempt to do. I'm sort of hesitant to ask you this question because I don't want to conflate the acting with the real life shenanigans. Are you following what's happening with Prince Andrew? Do you have a certain perspective because you had to get into that mode? I mean, I have more interest. I don't know if I've got a certain perspective, but because I watched that interview, I mean, I've watched that interview hundreds of times. So I've probably watched it more than, well, Gillian Anderson has probably watched an equal amount of me and Michael Sheen. But it was, yeah, so I sort of have an understanding, an understanding of how the interview came about. And so I do have more interest, I suppose, in it, whether I have more insight. I don't know. Emily is really interesting. And Emily is so interesting because she's a journalist and you're probably trained in the same way, is that you sometimes are trained not to have opinions. You know, you're trained to sort of be able to take every point of view. And so even if I'd ask Emily quite direct questions, she would never give me a straight opinion. It would be, well, you know, it was always sort of around that answer. So it was really fascinating being inside and it's continuing to reveal. I mean, it's going to be more that comes out, I'm sure, that hasn't come out yet. And one thing that was really, this is where I go sort of art does matter, is that we did that piece and Virginia Giffray watched the show and she's mentioned it in her book. And she, the speech that Emily gives, or my character gives in the third episode, which is about sort of how women have to keep, the victim has to keep telling their story. That really resonated with her. And she's quoted that speech word for word in her book. It was something that she found she did feel seen or felt validated or understood, at least. So I feel very proud that she felt that from our show, really. Your second failure is your failure to complete the London Marathon in 2024 in the way that you wanted. Now, but this has actually a very, very emotional resonance to it. Why were you running the marathon in the first place? So my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's probably about five years ago. He ran the very first London Marathon in 1981. And my brother came up with the idea that we should all run it in honour of him and the charity Alzheimer's Research. And my sister-in-law had lost her mother to Alzheimer's and had run the marathon four times in her honour. So, OK, yeah, we should do this. I mean, all of us are slightly reluctant. The idea of running a marathon. I'd never considered ever running a marathon in my life. I'd never, it never crossed my mind. But we all decided to do it. We got places. And then, yeah, then we, it became competitive, which is what happens in my family. It's quite interesting. It was fun. But the process of training, we're all in Strava, keeping up with each other, you know, being supportive, but also keeping tabs on each other. You know, because you're the only girl and the youngest. Yeah, I guess there's an extra pressure. Yeah. I was like, I cannot let the team down. I'm not going to, I have to, this is always the case. I have to keep up with them, do as well as them, if not better. And that's my own ----. Do you know what I mean? It's not anything they really put on me, but it was definitely a sense. It was, you know, a sense of, like, competitive nature. My nephew was also doing it, which was lovely. So it was five of us all together. And then it sort of came to the day and it was, we all were running our separate races. I knew that everyone was trying to get a time. And I knew that everyone was sort of trying to get under four hours. And it became about that. It was weirdly, in your own drive. Running it, it was great. It was sort of amazing seeing everyone around, you know, all the amazing people running for different charities. Very moving. And I had in my head this idea, I'd imagine me finishing. Like I'd imagined, oh, I'm going to run across the line. I'm going to be triumphant, crying. You know, it's all going to be really emotional. I had this sort of idea of what it's going to feel like at the end. And then, of course, five miles before the end, my leg completely packed up, like my shin and my calf just froze. I couldn't, I couldn't, I could hardly walk in it when I was limping around. And I just thought I'd have to walk the rest of it. I can't, I can't drop out. I've got to walk. But and I thought I'd have to do it on my own. And then one of my brothers who was behind me, he caught up with me and he was like, are you all right? I was like, no, I fucked my leg. I'm like, run on. Go on, save yourself. Yeah, I was like, no, you go. And he's like, no, I'm going to walk with you. And he stopped and we walked the last four miles or five miles on together. And it was really emotional. And it was really at first I was I was very disappointed. I was disappointed in myself. I was disappointed in my body. I've been I've put myself through quite difficult things like in my work. And and my body's not the thing that gives up, do you know what I mean? It's like that always goes, keeps going. So I was like, oh, wow, my body can't do this. I just assumed I'd be able to do it. I assumed I'd get round. And I did do it. Yeah, I mean, even now I'm talking like I'm it was a disappointment. It's like I did get round. It's like 26 miles. It's intense. But he stopped and he walked with me. And, you know, slowly in that as we walked the last four miles, five miles, sort of my expectation of what the outcome was supposed to be sort of gradually disappeared. Like I just was like, OK, just you're in the moment now. And this is what's important and very emotional. Yeah. Even in the retelling of it, I feel that emotion. Yeah. And there's something about presence in the moment that I imagine is particularly meaningful given your father's condition. Yes. How is he? He's good. He's like, well, he's good. He's he's he's as well as he can be in a way. I mean, my mom is extraordinary. And I think it really helps if you have a partner who takes care of you and makes you feel safe. If you're in that scenario, if you're losing, you know, she she's so generous and she's so patient with him. And he is I mean, he knows who we are. He can't remember what happened yesterday or what's happening tomorrow. He he mom needs to take him to the bathroom and she needs to dress him every morning. He sort of has to be constantly reminded of where he is and what he's doing. And he can't really communicate. He's lost language. He occasionally is really lucid and very funny. I come up with a joke every now and then. And so he's there, but he's sort of fading in and out. So much for sharing. Yeah. And thank you also for the work that you do for the Alzheimer's research. Yeah. My best friend lost her mother. Yeah. To Alzheimer's at the beginning of this year. And so I have a little perspective on to what that is like. And I think these conversations are so important. And it's one of those diseases that needs funding and needs more attention. It's it's one of our biggest killers. And no one I think because it's associated with old age, people dismiss it as just old age. You don't have to suffer from Alzheimer's. There are going to be and there's so much big money being plowed. Well, there's not enough. We need more money being plowed into research because and there's things on the cusp of discovering like a cure or, you know, the real factors behind it. It's still it's a bit like cancer and it's very particular to the individual. So it manifests very differently for every person. And that's why it's so hard to find one cure for it. You have to kind of deal with a human who's having the experience. But it is it is it's cruel. It's a cruel disease. And it it slowly takes the life away from someone. And, you know, I was looking at a photo of my dad the other day and I was like, that's him. That was him. You know, he was always he he loved talking. He loved having big, massive chats about politics, history. We'd talk for hours. You know, we'd go we'd be up to two in the morning chatting about what's going on in the world. And my dad and mom, you know, mom was a socialist or she was lefty. And dad was a Tory. So we'd have these great debates at home, always clash of politics and ideas. So it's sad seeing I can't have those conversations with him anymore. Well, I wish your father and your mother. Yeah, the best. And yeah, we're thinking of them. And thank you so much for talking about something so important. Yeah. Your final failure. It's a little one. It's a small little failure. I looked at Malcolm Gladwell's, I was like, Jesus, his are really intense. I was like, OK, I've got to be a bit more serious on my failures. I'm glad you don't say Malcolm Gladwell's because he actually his one of his failures is failure to run. Like, oh, was it? Well, he started taking joy in the mediocrity of his running rather than being competitive with himself. Yes. Yes. Well, your final one is your failure to trust the creative process. OK, deep dive. Yes. OK. Deep dive. So has that got any better with all your many awards? No, funnily enough. OK. No, it has. It has got better. I mean, this is just a it's a broad one because I was thinking, OK, what is it that I do attempt and fail at consistently? And it is it is failure every single time, no matter how, you know, well a show goes down or whatever, how well a job does out in the world in the process of it. I consistently think it's going to be an absolute failure and think that I'm an absolute failure. And it's so weird. It's like, come on. And my partner's always like, OK, Ruth, you said this last time. And I'm like, no, but this time, this time, this time, it's different this time. He's like, you said that last time. So it's some weird I don't know. It just haven't I haven't sort of managed to trace a new pathway in my brain as to what the reality is. And I don't know why. I think it's like many reasons why. But it will manifest in a way of if I'm doing a play in rehearsals, I have sort of, you know, massive crisis of faith in the material, in what I'm doing. If it's TV and film and it happens more often than it's usually once the day is done of filming that I'll go home and on the day, the reality of the actual scene and doing it probably fine for lots of different things. I go home and eat my own head for hours, obsessing over what I should have done, what I didn't do well enough. Completely pointless. And it's exhausting and it's boring for everyone around me. And it's it's just it's not reality, actually. So it's quite weird that I do it. And it's I I'm getting better. I am getting better. But I is a failure that I want to work on. It's so interesting, though, because as you're talking, I relate to everything you say, albeit not with acting. Yes. With a podcast interview, I will constantly be thinking, God, that I phrase that question so badly. Yes. And then when I listen back, I'm like, why didn't I ask this? Why did I gavel on? Why didn't I leave silence here? And again, with writing books, I now understand a bit like your partner was saying. It's part of my process. Approximately two thirds of the way through, I will think I'm the worst writer who's ever committed. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's obvious most people have this feeling, right? Yes. But I wonder if it's actually because you can see all the things that you could be doing. It makes you a better actor in a way. Yeah. Just very neurotic. I mean, I when I look at everyone going, I'm not sure she's going home and, you know, breaking down the scene. Have you asked her? I will ask her. I don't think she does. I mean, well, OK, I'll be surprised if she does. I think she has a beer and just has a great time. And there was one time recently I was like, OK, just stop. Think. Don't think that. And suddenly there was an empty blank. Nothing. Well, there's those things I could do now. I could work out. I could read a book. I could, you know, make dinner. I could do loads. Suddenly, actually, if I took that away, there's loads of things I could do. But there was a sort of emptiness. And I sort of thought, oh, this is a habit that I've taught myself to do that makes it feel more important than it actually is. Maybe. Yeah. And also maybe you're scared of the emptiness. I'm scared of the emptiness. You're filling it. Exactly. I'm filling it with just really useless ---- because, you know, we've done the scene. You can't go back to it. It's done. It's dusted. What's the point in worrying about it? Do you watch back your own work if it's on TV or film? I sometimes have to because I sometimes produce stuff. And so you're in the edit or you're getting sent edits of it. And I do. I'll maybe watch one episode just to see tonally if it's working. I kind of hate it. Although there is a plan to watch the whole eight episodes of Down Cemetery Road on one day. Emma's idea. I blame her entirely. And I'm dreading it. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to make it through. I have to watch eight hours of myself. I mean, that's not fun. No, that's kind of like, oh, my God, why did I do that? Sometimes you're like, oh, that's OK. Oh, that really works. And then other times you're like, that's just, oh, my God. And then you're like, I look old. Oh, Ruth, you look great. And you're amazing. Can you imagine watching yourself? I can't. It's like I struggle with this having to be filmed for social media clips. I just now seek to try and disconnect myself. I'm like, that's just a version of myself. It's not actually how I look. No, exactly. That's all you have. All you can do. Yeah. I remember first watching like myself from the back of my head on a screen because I was like, God, I never see the back of myself. That's how I walk. Oh, God. You know, it's like so weird. I just had this experience yesterday of seeing a film of me walking away. And I was like, God, I'm so hunchbacked. It's like round, shouldered, sort of lumpen. Oh, ****. It's awful. Yeah. People know too much. Yeah. What is the worst creative experience you've ever had in this context? And then what's the best? OK, so the worst. And I'm picking like it was a job that actually and this is this is another proof of why it's completely useless is is a film I did called A Little Stranger, which is like a film with Lenny Abramson directed it. And I think it's a particular point in my life, to be honest. I think I was sort of it was like I was about 37 or something. And probably going through some sort of transition. But very I was hyper self-conscious for some reason. And I was doing we all had I'd like fake teeth in. I was playing a posh woman called Caroline Ayers. And it's not a book that adaptation of a book. Everyone was doing had like tashes on. And it was a little bit and it wasn't comedic. It was very naturalistic. But there was something I felt very uncomfortable and self-conscious. And I felt like Lenny, even though this isn't true again, it's all in my brain. I felt like he wasn't happy with what I was doing or something. And I was deeply self-conscious through the whole of that film. And I thought it was going to be the end of my career or it was over. And my poor boyfriend was getting it every night. I was like, and I felt so uncomfortable on set and being looked at. And and then the actual final product is one of my better performances. And I was like, OK, I can't I've got no control over this. This means even in discomfort, the camera reads something interesting. What is the best creative experience? The 24 hour play, which was, again, because I had no time to think anything. I couldn't. The whole setup of that. This is a 24 hour play I did on stage. I I did one scene a hundred times with a hundred different men, most of which weren't actors. And I'd never met them before. I never rehearsed the scene with them. It was like a 10, 15 minute scene. Every two hours, I'd have a break for 15 minutes and got to pee and eat some food. But I was on stage doing this repetitive thing. It's a kind of piece of performance art, really, rather than straight theater. But it was the most electric and just fulfilling thing I've done in my life because I I couldn't plan anything. It was totally up to the gods who walked on. And it was about creating, again, being completely present, creating some sort of unique energy of that person opposite you. And they're all randoms. You know, I never met them before. We had to dance, we had to kiss. We had to like sort of break up and, you know, leave each other and whatever. It was all very interesting. It was fascinating. I was so full of love by the end of it because, like, people are endlessly fascinating and surprising. They're never what you expect. And you can find connection with anyone. That's the most incredible note to end this on. I am such a firm believer in the power of connection. I have Only Connect tattooed on my wrist. It is everything. Yeah. And I'm so, so grateful to you, Ruth Wilson, for coming on to How To Fail. No, thank you for having me. It's been wonderful. Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.