Should You Bulk or Cut First? (Most People Get This Wrong) | Mind Pump 2817

All right, you're wondering if you should go on a bulk, a cut, or just re-comp your body. How do you know when it's the right time? That's what we're talking about in today's episode. Let's do it. I've shifted my opinion on this over years, and I would say almost always, just because I believe there's always an exception to the rule, but almost always I'm going to bulk somebody out the gates. Almost always. It leads to the other ones? Yeah. Even if you imagine the person who someone thinks that what they think is probably the exception to the rule. You're 100 pounds overweight. You haven't worked out. You're eating McDonald's. It's like you can't possibly be telling me you're going to bulk that person. I would say yes, but then I think there's some nuance to explaining what that looks like. Totally. But I would say yes, I would bulk them first. Before we go further though, for us non-bodybuilder types, explain to me the difference of re-comp between the bulk and cut. All right, so we'll explain the first two and then get to re-comp. So bulking is the process of trying to gain. Typically it's muscle. Usually people don't bulk to gain body fat, but it's to try to gain. A cut is the attempt or process at which you're trying to get leaner. And re-composition is maintenance. Well, you're trying to re-comp, meaning change your body composition. I want to get leaner and build some muscle. Which would be like trying to do Goldilocks at the same time. Yeah. So that would be a good way to say it too, is Goldilocks zone or stay at maintenance. Too hot, too cold. I thought it was like, whenever I heard that term, I thought you were referring to a reverse dieting or something. Well, reverse dieting, which we'll get to, would be a bulk, right? This is where you're trying to eat more to try to build. So here's where people typically start. Should you bulk, cut or re-comp? It depends on your goal is what people would say. You're trying to lose weight, then you go to cut. You're trying to gain weight, you want to bulk. Re-comp, that's just, you want to kind of get leaner and build muscle at the same time. Not quite, not quite. That's not a determining or the determining factor that you should consider on whether or not you should be on a bulk cut or re-comp. I think there's a few other things you need to consider. And I think this is kind of where you're going, Adam, which is, okay, you want to lose weight, but do you have runway to go on an effective cut, right? In other words, is your, is your basal metabolic rate or is your metabolism to put it loosely? Is it burning hot enough to where I can bring your calories down, but I have room to go down to take you to a place that you can sustain. In other words, just to paint the picture, you're overweight and on average, every day you're inactive, but on average, every day you're eating 2000 calories a day and you want to lose 50 pounds. Well, in order to lose 50 pounds, you might think, oh, just go down to 1500 calories or 1200 calories. You could do that, but you would plateau very quickly. You might get 10 or 15 pounds off your body, but now you're left with, you know, another 20 pounds or something to go. And now you're at 1200 calories and you, you can, you can't really go down from there. You go below that and you're feeling really bad. You're not getting adequate nutrients, proteins, and fats aren't adequate. And it's not sustainable. So that's one of the big things to consider is do I have runway? We, we just had a live caller this morning, female, uh, weighed 167 pounds and she wants and yeah, uh, was complaining of like carrying a body fat in her stomach area. We talked, we must've talked to her about a bunch of other things for a good 10 minutes before I finally asked her, do you track calories? And you know, where are you at right now? And you know, I wish I would ask her that the first two minutes because we would've got to the conclusion way faster. She's eating 1600 calories. Like there's no way I'm taking that person on a cut from, you know, five 11, 167 pounds. She'd be miserable. And she was active and active. It won't move the needle. Yeah. Training moves a lot of steps. Works a, a, a physical job. Uh, yeah, no way. Like, and, and that's more common than not where people have, have kind of plateau. This is why my argument to the book now, what it kind of looks like, to be honest, it does kind of look like a recomp moving into a book. What do I mean by that? So let's take the example of the obese person who's over a hundred pounds of, of weight over overweight. Right. And let, and let's just, they're sedentary. They have never, never worked out or haven't worked out in a very long time. Eat fast food, predominantly junk food. So I thought, um, what, what I tell them is like this, we're going to eat whole foods. I want you to hit a 180, 200 grams of protein or whatever, like that a day. And, and so naturally what happens is that person who was eating fast food and stuff like that, they might've been at a high, high calories. Like they might've been at really high calories and that's what got them there. And I tell them to eat whole foods, 200 grams. And I tell them to eat as much as possible. And they think it's, they feel like it's a bulk, but it actually controls the calories a little bit. And so it actually ends up being more like a higher protein, right? Right. It ends up being kind of a recomp. But then what I, what I quickly want to do is as soon as we start building muscle and then their appetite starts to increase, I want to feed it, you know, and even though that person needs to lose a hundred pounds, the signal that I'm looking for first is, oh my God, this is too much, which is normally what this happens. This happens all the time with someone like this, that's that overweight. And then you get them to change their diet to from process junk food to whole foods. They think the food is just way too much and they can't fathom. How's this possible? I'm over a hundred pounds and I can't eat all the food you're telling me to eat. And it's like, yeah, it's because you're eating whole foods and you're eating protein first. And so I don't want to just stay there. I could just stay there and they'll probably just keep losing weight, but I actually want to build my tap. I want to build their month. I want to build muscle. I want to build my towels and I want to build that runway you're talking about because maybe what that looks like at first is like 2,800 or 3,000 calories on this 300 pound person. And I actually prefer them to be more like 35, 4,000 calories. And then we have, uh, we need a lot of room to lose a hundred pounds. Yes. You need a lot of room to go downward in calories to cause. And by the way, if you get your calories, the lower your calories get, uh, the more likely it is that your body will try to pair muscle down to adapt, right? So, you know, if you go from 4,000 to 3,000 calories, it's a thousand calorie drop. And let's say your body's burning 4,000. So you're like, you've got a really humming metabolism. You're losing body fat, uh, at 3,000 calories. Uh, and if your strength training muscle loss may be minimal or not at all, but you take someone who's at 2,000 calories and you cut them down to a thousand calories, same calorie deficit, same type of individual wants to lose weight. Those calories are so low. The body is really trying to adapt quickly to it and it's pairing muscle down. And so the odds of muscle loss and a slower metabolism, uh, are much higher. So the easy answer here for a bulk, uh, would be, I want to build muscle. There really is no, someone comes to me that wants to build muscle. We're going to put you on a bowl. We're going to try and eat more calories than we're burning. We're going to try to eat a high protein diet and lift weights. That's an easy answer right out the gate. It's like, like there's almost no situation. I mean, I could, I could pull some if I really think hard where someone comes to me and says, I want to build muscle. And I said, we're not going to put you on a bowl. Yeah. That doesn't make any sense. Uh, maybe gut health issues or something else, but somebody's coming wants to build muscle, easy book, easy book. Uh, everybody else, uh, I would agree with you, Adam. I think that the direction to go, even if you want to cut is to move in a direction that boost metabolic rate to set us up for sustainable fat loss. Cause the problem isn't fat loss. I know that's what everybody thinks. The challenges, uh, when they want to lose weight, like the hard thing is to lose weight. But if you actually look at the data, it's easier to lose the weight than it is to keep it off the, the keeping it off parts, actually the problem we don't want to look at. In other words, we need to, uh, we need to look at this problem and, and really consider the keeping the weight off part of the problem and make that the most important thing we consider because that's the issue. That's the challenge. The weight loss isn't the challenge. It's challenging, but when you look at the data, uh, there's a percentage of people that lose the weight. There's actually a decent percent of people that lose a significant amount of weight when they really put their mind to it, but the majority of them gain it back. The vast majority of them gain it back. And so if you look at all the people that attempt, uh, almost all of them gain the weight back a small percentage, lose the weight, but almost all of the ones that lose the weight, gain it back. So that's the thing we need to focus on the most. And so giving us our ourselves runway with a hotter metabolism, which, which means more muscle, which gives us more flexibility and more calories in the cut is the way to go. Because to put it simply, uh, is it easier for somebody to lose weight, eating 2,500 calories or eating 1,500 calories, right? Obviously the 2,500 calories, you don't feel like you're starving yourself all day long. It's a, it's a way better strategy. It's if you, if you go the other way than that person, almost always, even if you're highly motivated, uh, at first to, to restrict and lower calories for this cut, um, the inevitable happens where you, you start, that slows down the process of you losing weight, starts to slow down. And then the, and the cravings are growing like crazy. And you've been just white knuckling it for weeks on weeks, and maybe you're down five or seven pounds. Uh, but it's like, it's now it's moving really slow. It is so hard for that client versus the client who I flipped the model on its head. And I'm like, Hey, I want you to eat you hungry. I want you to eat again, just choose these types of foods and let's really focus on getting stronger. Let's not worry about the scale per se right now. Don't worry. I know you came in. The goal is to lose a hundred pounds. We're going to get there. I promise you. But let me, let me build that metabolism up. Let's build some muscle on your body and it'll make that process so much easier when you do it this way. It's crazy how much easier it is for the client to adhere to that long-term. This is in fact, I like this conversation, uh, because there's controversy in our space around it. And there's typically controversy in the, the newer young educated trainer. Who's just gone through their courses certification and is reading just the science. I'm very familiar with what law of thermodynamics looks like in that calories in versus calorie out. And that's exactly how I thought as a trainer, when I first started, it was like, Oh, this really overweight person is eating too many calories. I'm going to cut their calories down and I'm going to move them more. That's the law of thermodynamics and that will lose weight. And it would lose weight initially. And then we get to a point where that slows down. So what do I do? Ramp up the intensity or ramp up their movement more, cut their calories some more. And then eventually this person is eating 1900 calories training three to five days a week strength and doing cardio outside of that. And they're just like, feel like they can't eat anything outside of the perfect diet that I've given them. And that almost always eventually failed. Even the ones that I got to the goal failed later on, they put the weight back on. And so it's just, it's a failing strategy. Although that's what we're taught. This episode is brought to you by a sponsor Organifi. They make organic supplements for health, wellness, fitness, muscle gain, and fat loss. And you can get 20% off, go to Organifi.com forward slash mind pump. That's O R G A N I F I dot com forward slash mind pump. Use the code mind pump for the 20% off discount. So someone might be listening and thinking, well, what if I just cut first and then do what you're saying, right? What if I just, cause I want to lose this weight and I get it. I get it. I get the urgency. Uh, you finally got the motivation. You've been dealing with this for a while, right? You didn't gain 60 pounds overnight. It's took a little bit of time and you've thought about it a lot over the last however many years. And now you're finally motivated enough to really do something about it. And so you're like, look, I want to get the weight off. Like I finally meant to do something about it. You guys, why don't I just lose the weight doing it? The, what you're saying the wrong way, which is just, I'm just going to eat way less because I feel motivated work my way back and I'm just going to work out. And when I lose the weight, then I'll do what you're saying. Then I'll do this slow increase of calories. And I'll try to build my, I get the weight off first. I got to get the weight off first. Well, I'm here to tell you, first of all, that is a strategy. So I'm not going to say that's not a strategy. That is a strategy, but it's harder. It's actually harder than what we're saying. Way harder. What we're saying is easier. It's an easier strategy. Now that the challenge with what we're saying is the fear. Yeah. Around it. The psychological challenge. Total. Like, okay. One's a really physical challenge. Physiological challenge, cutting calories really low and moving a ton physiologically and psychologically is difficult. Yeah. Initially it doesn't feel that way, but it'll be the other one. Isn't as hard physically, but it's definitely as challenging psychologically. It is initially. So initially what you're going to find with the first approach, which is just, just cut. And then I'll worry about building later is initially because you're motivated. Uh, it actually feels great. That's like, I'm doing this. I'm eating my whatever chicken breast and rice or my paleo diet, whatever the heck you're doing white knuckling it or my, my shakes. And initially you're losing weight, 10 pounds, 15 pounds. Let's go. Let's keep going. Oh yeah. I'm going to get to that 60 pounds and then I'm going to reverse and I'm not going to worry about that. And then at some point months later, after you've plateaued, cause you will, when you're frustrated and you're like, Oh my God, I lost the first, I only 60 pounds. The first 25, you know, I did it now. I'm like stuck here. Like what's going on? I'm not eating much. Everybody I'm working out like crazy motivation fades cause it will. And then you're done. You're over. And by the way, this is probably what you've done before. You've probably followed this. The rebound, the yo-yoing, this is where all that kind of tends to happen. And you know this because you know, you've done it, you've done this two or three or five times in the past over the course of however long you've ever tried to lose weight. So it's, it's not going to work again. I hate to break it to you. So it's, and it's actually harder because it doesn't work. What we're saying initially is hard because you're telling me that I'm just going to eat high protein and feed myself and lift weights and not worry about the scale. And initially with that motivated state of mind, it is going to feel frustrating. Okay. Because you might step on the scale. It's more delayed gratification. That's right. And you might see that, okay, my weight's not going down. Maybe even went up a couple of pounds. Okay. I am strong on the gym. That part's kind of cool. Like I'm lifting more weight, but God, I want to get the 60 pounds off you guys. Like what's going on here. And then you're, you're eating a little more and you're like, okay, am I ready to lose? And you know, you've got one of us as your coach, you're like, no, we're going to go up in calories again. Let's feed more muscle. And you're like, what? I don't want to do that. But you follow it and you follow along. And after three or four months, you're now consuming, you know, 3000 calories a day, 3,200 calories a day. You've built great strength. Your body's got different shape to it. And then you come to us and you're like, all right, can I do it now? And we're like, let's do it. Let's cut now. And then we cut. And here's what happens. Fat falls off your body. Suddenly you burn body fat. The plateaus aren't as hard. You're doing less work. And then when you do plateau, you've got more runway to cut again. And you end up in this, uh, much more, uh, sustainable place. Um, now what's, what's interesting about the recomp, cause people are like, well, what if I just want to recomp, right? I want to do this kind of slower. Recomp is actually hard, but also easy. What I mean by, by hard, it's hard to be in that perfect, you know, lose fat, build muscle, lose fat, build muscle. Uh, but it's actually, the process actually looks like this, uh, eat your target body weight and protein only eat whole foods eat when you're hungry and lift weights. And then what happens is your appetite dictates the calories. And then it kind of looks like this. I bulk a little, I cut a little, I bulk a little, I cut without you even thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah. Bulk cut, bulk cut, bulk cut. And then the body slowly recomping takes longer. Yeah. Slowly changes over that timeline. That's right. I just got to stretch it out. I mean, I, I personally like recomping, but I, I think the person who, and this is why I said 90 plus percent or whatever, I would, I would almost always go to a bulk first is just because it's an easier thing to focus on with somebody. Um, recomping takes a lot. Cause here's what, when you're in a, when you're teetering back, cause here's what, when you're in a recomp, what it really means is that you're trying to hover around maintenance, which there's no such thing as maintenance there. It means that there's periods of time when you're in a slight surplus, there's periods of time when you're in a slight deficit, which is this small injury. Sometimes your body's building a tiny bit of muscle. Sometimes it's burning a tub. And so it's these, these, and what sometimes that looks like and why it's tough. I think for that person is it doesn't always translate into getting stronger in the gym. Sometimes you don't feel that much stronger because maybe at that period, no dramatic change. Yeah. There's no dramatic shifts anywhere. The, the scale typically stays right about the same. And so that really tends to, you're also to glycogen isn't always filled all the way up in the body. So your muscle bellies aren't always filled all the way up and you don't look like, so recomping is, uh, you know, is I think the healthiest, the best approach, but also black belt level, in my opinion, uh, dieting for somebody, like that discipline to know what you're doing is right. And wait and just wait and just know it'll, that, that takes a lot of discipline. Now here's how that works. Cause someone's like, well, how do I know I'm eating the right amount? Like if I'm recomping, how do I know your appetite? This, you know, it's going crazy. Cause you're like, my appetite's what got me here in the first place, but your appetite will actually tell you, uh, but you have to eat in a way to where your appetite signals are accurate. Right. Okay. So you can't eat this. You had this recall diet. And this way is a zero, zero processed food diet cravings. There is no processed food in your diet. It's all 100% whole natural foods. And you're eating it every day. Consistently your target body weight in protein from whole natural foods. You're, you're, you're minimizing all processed foods, including protein shakes. Okay. Because this is what helps dictate if you're eating the right amount of calories, protein provides satiety, whole foods, uh, really, uh, you have accurate systems of satiety with that, with whole foods, processed foods, throws it all out the window. I mean, you could eat potato chips all day long, whole potatoes that are plain, not nearly as much. That's just one example. So if you do that and you're patient, and this is how I loved doing it this, this way with clients, because when I would work with clients, uh, I know I could be with them. These are personal, like in-person clients, by the way, I would see them twice a week. And I would, I would talk to them through the whole process and talk to them the whole process. And it could take a while. And here's, and sometimes it takes a lot longer than you think, because although it sounds simple, it's actually for a lot of people, especially people dealing with weight issues, like being overweight, it's hard not to eat processed foods all the time. Like there's, it's, it's hard. And then when you do, you go off the rails because those appetite signals are out the window. But if you want to recomp and you want to do this in a way that's like, look, I'll take the time and I'll just let my body reach its healthy state. It's whole natural foods only hit your target body weight and protein lift weights two to three days a week and hit eight to 10,000 steps a day. And over time, most men will eventually land at a kind of healthy body fat percentage. And so will most women. Well, and what it just, it just works part of what it looks like too. That's really difficult is there's little to no movement on the scale. There shouldn't be at all. Really? If you're doing a, if you're doing a real true recall where you're just, you're, you're constantly losing a pound of body fat, adding a pound of muscle type of deal. I mean, if you need to lose a lot of weight, you'll eventually see skin, you know? Yeah. But that's way down the road. And really a recall is not what I would do with a person like that, right? A person that's got way overweight. You can actually show movement faster with the reverse diet first and then the cut. Yeah. Which is, yeah. So then, and honestly, psychologically for that client, it typically is a better strategies. Like we're just no scale. We're just focused on getting strong, adding, adding calories. And then I come the other way so I can show them more movement. Recall, like I said, to me is a, is black belt status. Like you have to have, like you have to be like intuitive, very, uh, knowledge with just be happy with, uh, I feel good. I'm working out, I'm eating this healthy food. I'm not too worried about what's happening or how fast it's happening on the scale, dipping up or down one pound or two. It's like you're, you're just kind of hovering trusting the process. Just to give an example, what this would typically look like. And I'll just paint like a general scenario. If I had a client, I need to lose 40 pounds and we use the recomp, uh, method, uh, only pro only whole foods, uh, high protein, uh, you know, strength train two or three days a week, hit eight to 10,000, uh, thousand steps a day. It would, it would look like, and if they were good with it, uh, it would look like an initial 10 pound weight loss. Some of it would be water. Some of it would be body fat and they would be stuck for a while. It would be like a law, like a long period of just getting stronger, getting more fit, getting stronger, getting more fit, getting stronger, getting more fit. And then down the road you would start to see the weight loss happen and then boom, here we are. The reverse diet process, uh, would be a little faster to get to the cut. And then again, the question about the color, how do I know it's time? Like I'm, I'm good for a cut. You're eating a lot of calories. You've got good muscle and strength and you want to get leaner. Now you can go on a cut. And I don't like to cut men, uh, who aren't eating at least, you know, 3,000 or 3,200 calories. I don't like to cut women who are at least eating 26, 27 or calories. Um, unless they only have like 10 pounds to lose. Um, I just don't like to cut, uh, because the plateaus are nasty and you're, and you end up in this low calorie. You end up in a low calorie place. It gives them no metabolic flexibility. It means that, oh, now that you've got down to this weight, you can't ever eat outside of this box or you're going to automatically go back up. I think it's important to, to know when talking about the bulk, because this is an area that I think even I messed up in my late twenties, even partly in my thirties, I'd say what it doesn't take a lot to bulk. So I think people sometimes hear us say bulk and it sounds like, okay, green light to like, just what the research shows. It's very, it's a hundred to 200 calories is enough to be considered in a bowl. So you don't need to be eating in this massive surplus to be considered in a bulk. You're just, you're eating over maintenance, a good solid a hundred to 200 calories. Um, and so it, it does. And so it's not the green light to go eat like an asshole. I feel like sometimes doesn't mean eat garbage, right? I think sometimes when, when it's communicated and like you, someone hears like an episode like this to go like, okay, I, that makes sense. And like, okay, it sounds like someone you do. Okay. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to reverse diet and their reverse diet doesn't look like a diet at all. It looks like I'm just going to eat whatever I want and call it a and it's like, that would be a dirty bowl, which we didn't talk about, which is not just means you get really fat, right? Which is not what we would advocate for. I don't advocate for, and that's not what I mean when I say I would bulk everybody. I would not dirty bulk anybody. I would get, switch them over to whole foods and I would really stretch their capacity to eat protein. But it works, you guys. I mean, um, you know, I have lots of examples of, of clients I've worked with who've done this. It's quite remarkable. Uh, the science around metabolic boosting is a little bit, uh, you know, it's a little bit fuzzy because it doesn't tell the whole story, it doesn't tell the whole story. But when you talk to coaches and trainers who've worked with people, um, like I'll tell, I'll give you an example. And this is not, you've seen it multiple times all the time. I, this is not this example I'm going to give. Um, I guarantee you there's a coach or trainer listening. Who's like, Oh, that happened to my client. And like I had one woman that I trained and she was running 20 to 30 miles a week. So she liked to run. Okay. So it's a lot of miles. Plus she was lifting weights four days a week and she was consuming about 17 to 1800 calories a day. And you know, she was fit. Uh, she, you know, she was doing good with her running, but she wanted to get leaner. She wanted to change. She was very frustrated because for all the work that she was doing, she's like, I just don't feel like I reflect now. She's like, is it my genetics? You know, I was overweight as a kid. Is this just as good as it gets? So here's what we did. We, we, we slowly cut her running at her strength train about three days a week. And we cut her running down from 20 to 30 miles a week down to 10 and then down to five. She was lifting weights three days a week. And I reversed either. And I got her up to almost 3000 calories. And she, through that process dropped body fat and built muscle, uh, through that process. So now she's sitting at like, wow, I'm eating 2,600 calories, 2,700 calories. I'm running 20 to 30 miles a week. Uh, I'm way stronger and I look way better. This is easier. This is way easier to maintain. Yeah. This is the part that I don't, I don't like that gets countered on the internet with the studies that talk about one pound of muscle versus one pound of fat, you know, in a lot more complex than that. Yeah. It's gets the, there's trainers that try to simplify, uh, that, Oh, building 10 pounds of muscle doesn't make that big of a difference on your metabolic rate. And, uh, the bullshit, uh, in a lab, when you pull both of them out and you test it, yes. In a situation like that, uh, what they're burning metabolic, but there's so many more factors that go into what it, what it takes to build that muscle, what it takes to maintain that muscle, uh, lifestyle changes, habits that have changed the metabolism knows how to become more and less efficient. And then by the way, and then this is what we know about the metabolism, which is, is what third place in the most complex things in the universe. You know what I'm saying? So it's just like how arrogant sometimes we are to be like, this is what it is. Like, okay, buddy, this is what we know so far about it. I can tell you this. If train hundreds of people that I have this, it doesn't add up. It doesn't add up how this little petite girl that was eating 1900 calories is now eating 2,800 calories, doing less cardio two pounds of muscle. Yeah. And she's only put on five pounds on the scale. Like that doesn't math at all based off of that. And she's not doing anything radically different. She's doing less activity, which there goes a lot there in thermodynamics. And so something is off here. So definitely benefits your blood sugar too. I mean, you gain more lean muscle tissue and then, you know, stores that, that glucose, your hormone profile, there's so many benefits to it. It's, it's interesting to me that they would argue in a different direction. Yeah. They try to, or they oversimplify it. So it's such a crazy degree. So look, I hope that answers everybody's question, but here's what we have. We have a reverse dieting one-on-one guide because it is a process. And so anytime we talk about a reverse diet, people are like, okay, how do I know how many calories to add? How do I know where I'm at? When do I add the calories? What does this all look like? So we have a guide. Again, it's the reverse dieting one-on-one guide breaks it down. It's 50% off right now. You can get it for $23 and 50 cents, and you can find it at mindpumpreversediet.com. You can also find us on Instagram, mindpumpmedia. We'll see you there. All right. I know you liked that episode. If you did check this one out. Stop doing three sets of 12 to build muscle and do this instead. You guys want to guess? Stop doing the three sets of 12 and do this instead. Uh, with that intro, my guess is you're going to tell people to change the rep range up to yeah, five by five or low rep range. Do you guys remember when you're going? Yeah. So, um, oftentimes we get stuck in like a set count and a rep count or a range that's