What Do People Say On Their Deathbeds? | Theological | PragerU

In our society, we try to avoid talking about death so often. What would Jewish law say about the contemporary state of the death penalty? Some people could see it as a paradox. If you believe in the sanctity of life, then why are you taking away a life? But only in that context where it promotes the sanctity and value of life. According to Judaism, we don't own our bodies. God owns our bodies and we have obligations towards how we have to treat ourselves and how we have to act in the world. So what does it say about our society We should have respect for every person's life, regardless of how society might regard them. Everyone has value and dignity being created in the image of God. What happens in, let's say, 24 hours after you have died? We have a great guest with us today, Rabbi Jason Weiner. Rabbi Weiner, you are the Senior Rabbi and Director of the Spiritual Care Department at Cedar Sinai. We really appreciate you making the time. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. There are very few guests that we've had on this show who, A, have been Jewish, so thank you for being number one, and B, I've had Shabbat lunch with, so this is extra special for me. There's so much to talk about. The first question I have, and this has been on my mind for a while, I think a lot of people, both Jew and non-Jew alike, might be taken aback to know that when it comes to personal and deeply intimate medical decisions that a Jewish person makes, it's not merely a decision between the patient and the doctor, but it's also a decision between the patient, the doctor, and Rabbi Jason Weiner. So why would, when you're making serious life and death medical decisions, why is a Jewish person expected to call a rabbi? Yeah, it's interesting. It's often surprising to people. There's a lot of reasons why. First of all, Judaism encompasses Jewish law, so it's not just that a rabbi's role is pastoral and providing emotional support, which is obviously a beautiful and very important thing, but there's also legal interpretation that happens. Jewish law encompasses literally every aspect of a person's life. So especially when it comes to very big decisions, decisions that a person's going to have to live with for their whole life and might regret or might worry about, is this the right thing to do? Because they're often not clear yes or no. There's a lot of gray and a lot of nuance and difficulty making the right choice. People want to feel that they have integrity and that there's guidance, almost like divine, not that the rabbi is God, but the rabbi is trying to draw upon divine text. And so a person feels like there's a certain comfort in recognizing that I have assistance with these decisions. There's a wise tradition that can provide me with guidance. And then I feel comfort in like, okay, whatever we decided, we feel like we did it in accordance with our values and our heritage, and it gives people a sense of meaning and comfort in making the right decision. So Judaism is not relegated to the study hall or to the synagogue alone, but Judaism is sort of life itself. And when you're making serious medical decisions, when you're, I don't know, forming a relationship or deciding who's the person you want to marry, Jewish law and the 3,000 year old Jewish tradition and text, they have what to say on those things. Is that an accurate characterization? Exactly. So let me ask a specific question then, because in our political culture, whether it's issues of gender reassignment surgery, whether it's issues of abortion, whether it's issues of, I don't know, even vaccinations, we've seen in our political discourse on the far left and increasingly on the far right, the terminology of, it's my body, my choice. I can terminate my pregnancy because only I can make decisions about my body. I can decide whether to be vaccinated because no one else should dictate what I do with my body. But then I look at Leviticus chapter 19, verse 28, for example, the prohibition of tattoos. You shall not make any tattoo marks on your skin. I refer to Leviticus 19.27 when it even dictates the way in which you're meant to get a haircut. There are prohibition after prohibition within the Hebrew Bible of God making dictates on what you can and can't do with your body. So irrespective of the Jewish position on things like abortion or gender reassignment surgery or vaccination, it seems like Judaism does not at all take the approach that it's your body, your choice. It very much seems like it's God's body. He's lending it to you. You're a vessel, whatever it may be. But irrespective of how we may feel on abortion or whatever, it's not our body. Is that a fair characterization? It's fair, and I mostly agree with you. I would say we don't own our bodies. God owns our body. That's a direct quote from rabbinic literature, it says that. And the approach is primarily whatever our obligations, not whatever our rights. It's a more obligation-based approach. There is, I would say, a soft autonomy. That's the one area I'd push back. According to Judaism, we don't own our bodies. God owns our bodies, and we have obligations towards how we have to treat ourselves and how we have to act in the world. It's interesting because a lot of people, Jews included, have this stereotypical, almost medieval sense of what a rabbi does. Rabbi is the chicken kosher or not, or the rabbi is just looking for the 10th man to complete a prayer quorum. But you're actually saying that the role of not all rabbis, but at least in your case and other major, again, what's called a rabbinic posik, a decisor of Jewish law, is you're being called upon for these incredibly difficult and delicate medical questions. It's not as simple as just lighting a Hanukkah candle and making the person feel good about themselves, but it's also talking about the way in which Jewish law might curtail or regulate the medical decisions they make. So in that light, you said something before we started the show that really struck me, which is literally right before you got here, you were at the deathbed of a patient. We're not going to reveal any personal information, of course, but this is going to be such an elementary way of asking the question, what is that like, being at the side of someone who is literally dying as you speak, and not in a matter of days or weeks, but in a matter of minutes? Number one, what does that do to you on an emotional, spiritual level? And then number two, as a rabbi, what's your role in relation to that patient as he's passing on to the next world? I mean, they're very holy moments. I believe that when a person's soul is transitioning to the next world, these are some of the holiest moments in a person's life. And they're very special and precious moments. It is difficult. I mean, you asked me a lot of questions, how is it for me? Almost every day, I'm with someone who dies. It's part of my job as a rabbi in a hospital. Sometimes multiple in a day. I mean, last night, there was three within one hour before I left home. I was finally like, I got to go home. But I mean, that's part of the job. And on the one hand, you can get used to it and get numb, which is not ideal. I mean, if I'm there with someone and they're telling me about how their loved one's dying, or they themselves are dying, and I'm just like, I'm not taking it seriously, that would be not very compassionate. So on the one hand, I have to protect myself emotionally. On the other hand, I need to be there fully, 100% in that moment when it's happening, recognizing that for these people, this is that one time that they're dying, and it's very tender moments. Can I just ask—this is less to do with theology and more just curiosity—of the people that you've comforted in their dying moments, what are some of the themes you've noticed that they express? Regret? Pleasure? Fear? Yeah, there are a lot of themes. I'm reminded of my predecessor was Rabbi Levi. You may remember he told me before he died, not right before, but he said, you know, I never met anyone. I've spent 30 years comforting the dying, and I never met anyone who said, I wish I spent more time in the office. You know, I wish I accomplished more professionally. It was all about family and meaningful—I see a lot of people, it's family that matters in those moments. Interestingly, we have a lot of patients that start crying for their mothers or talking about their mothers as if their mothers or someone is coming to get them. Some days even have people hallucinating, but it's a very similar theme, which is interesting. I don't know what to make of it, but we do believe that people's family members, you know, they're coming to escort their soul, and we sometimes get the feeling—I mean, today, this patient I was with, as he was dying, and you could see on the monitor, you could see he was dying, and the team was telling us that, you know, this is from then. He started looking off into the—his family started saying, are you seeing something? A few times, he sort of reached his hand. You know, I don't know what to make of it. Something's happening that's probably beyond our realm, you know? So I have to ask then, again, I know this is not part of the topic we discussed, but when you say something beyond our realm, as a rabbi, what happens in, let's say, 24 hours after you have died? What happens to the soul, which we in Judaism believe in? What's going on? What we believe, what I believe, based on my study and some experiences with patients, is that, you know, the soul starts out in a totally pure place where it's happy and it's bliss, and even there's music, and then it gets stuffed into a body, and it doesn't want to go into that body. And that's why, actually, they say that babies are comforted by lullabies and music, because it's like, it's the noise of this world, and the music, like, comforts them and, like, reminds them where they came from. But then they get used to this world, as if this world is, like, the main place and not actually the spiritual world, and they become comfortable here. And we say, like, oh, I like it here. I don't want to leave, as much as they didn't want to be here. And then we don't want to go back. And then when the soul goes back, the rabbis say that it's, at first, very shocking and confusing. If someone lived a very, very spiritual life, it's less shocking and confusing, but still shocking and scary. And to the extent that there's people or family around that sometimes can mitigate some of that fear. And then the soul spends time, like, in a confused state for a short time, and then gradually becomes reacquainted with that spiritual world, reunited with family, and then gradually, little by little, more and more completely spiritual. And it's a gradual process. We actually have, like, prayers and rituals that we do to try to help that process go smoothly. One last tangential question, because I know I'm not your therapist, and we're here to talk about the practicalities of Jewish law. But nevertheless, just because I find this so fascinating, have your professional and spiritual experiences comforting so many dead people? Has that made you less afraid of death? I don't know. In some ways, it makes me more afraid because I have to think about it every day. In our society, we try to avoid talking about death so often. It's not pleasant to think about, but I can't avoid it because it's constantly in my face. So it makes me afraid only in, like, I feel like there's so much to accomplish in life and so much to do. And I'm constantly reminded that there's a clock ticking behind me, like, we all will have that day. And so I'm constantly reminded, like, got to say that thing, got to tell that person I love them, got to finish this project, because you never know if we'll have the time. You never know. People that I meet in the hospital, most of them did not know that they were dying that day. Okay, oftentimes, that's true. But many times, they went to work like it was a normal day. So it's a reminder. It's scary. It doesn't necessarily make me, all of a sudden, like, oh, I'm inoculated because I'm around it so much. But you use it as a motivation, you know, carpe diem. For sure. So let's get back to the practicalities, then, of Jewish law, vis-a-vis death in the process of dying. In Jewish law, we have what's called a gozes, someone who is in the process of dying, a dying person. And something that always, I'll be honest, it bothered me. I try to be a committed Orthodox Jew, but there are things that I have great difficulty in both accepting and understanding. And one of them comes from the Shulchan Aruch, which is the Code of Jewish Law. And the Code of Jewish Law, on the one hand, makes almost a statement of values that I can appreciate in principle, but have a very complex relationship with in its practicalities. And it says, the gozes, the one who is dying, if he knows he's dying within an hour, it's guaranteed, but he's in pain. And he tells you, just remove my pillow. Because if you remove my pillow, I'll just die five minutes earlier. And that'll give me five minutes less of suffering. The Code of Jewish Law is explicitly clear, you cannot do that. Not only can you not do that, that would be tantamount to murder. Even though this patient is dying, it's not a question of saving him because you can't. It's just a question of how much of the pain and suffering can you ease. And the Code of Jewish Law says none of it. You can't ease any of the pain if it means he will die sooner. Can you explain this to me? Yeah, I actually find it to be a very meaningful and profound passage that I quote a lot in the hospital because of two reasons. One, calling it tantamount to murder, it's trying to express a value that we should have respect for every person's life, regardless of how society might regard them. So you might say, oh, this person's dying, write them off. And it's saying, no, that would also be murder if you killed them. They still have holiness. There's still something special about them, even if they are not productive and fully healthy. But everyone has value and dignity being created in the image of God. Also, that chapter, which says you can't pull the pillow out from under their head, says, but if there is a wood chopper outside the room, and the wood chopping is somehow preventing them from dying, maybe because of the noise or the rhythm, it doesn't say what they meant by that, but they're chopping wood, or there's salt on the tongue, and the salt on the tongue is preventing the person from dying. As long as it's there, they won't die. And it's presumably painful for the soul to be stuck and not able to leave the body. So then the Code of Jewish Law says you could stop the wood chopper and say, you know what, stop chopping the wood, let him go in peace. Or take the salt off, let him go in peace. So the distinction is we can't do something active that with our hands directly makes the person die faster, but we can passively allow natural death to occur. So I think it's an important distinction that we use a lot in making these decisions. So according to Jewish law, are there any halachic, I don't know if we explained this, but halacha is the Hebrew term for Jewish law, essentially. Would there be any halachic problems with a DNR patient? Would a committed religious Jew be able to be a DNR patient? Yeah, so DNR, do not resuscitate, is sometimes allowed and sometimes not allowed. So that's something that people call a rabbi about. Can this person be DNR? If cardiopulmonary resuscitative efforts, pounding on their chest compressions and pharmaceuticals, if these things could be successful in helping a person to overcome their cardiac arrest, their heart stopping, and live a full life again, then rabbis usually say, you know what, you cannot do a DNR. If we could save your life by doing this intervention, Jewish law expects the person to engage in those, even though it's not comfortable, to have their life saved. Whereas if a person's suffering, and they have a terminal illness, and they're in a dying process, and oftentimes these interventions would only break ribs, but not actually save their life. In these cases, a person does have the right, which we talk about rights versus obligations again, but it is allowed by Jewish law to say, you know what, I don't want to engage in these. It's not killing, but rather you allow me to die. So the theme I'm extrapolating from you, and by extension Jewish law, is just the supreme importance that life and the value of life has in guiding all of the decisions that you, as a rabbinic authority, has to make. So I want to go back then to two points you made that I found really interesting, which is number one, active versus passive, in terms of the process of dying. And then the other is from the book of Genesis, being created B'Tselem Elohim, literally in the image of God. One of the impetus for this conversation was an article I had read recently, that there was a woman in Canada, I think in Montreal, and the way the article was written was so morbid and so bizarre, that essentially she was forced into euthanasia, which I would just describe that as a homicide, but I digress. So I have two questions for you. Number one, and this is going to be a big question, medically assisted suicide in Jewish law, can that ever be acceptable? And then the second part is, what does it say about our society today? Not necessarily in the United States, although where I'm from in New York, they just legalized euthanasia, medical assisted suicide. In Canada, it's pretty popular, so much so that there are reported cases of relatively healthy people who are going through mild episodes of depression, who were authored medically assisted suicide as a cure, essentially. So what does it say about our society that something like euthanasia is increasingly not just popular, but almost normalized? Yeah. And you can see how, from what I've described about the approach of Jewish law, that also the specific intervention and terminology makes a big difference. So for example, in the United States, it's usually referred to as medical aid in dying because it's prescribed to the individual and then they self-ingest. Whereas in Canada, it's euthanasia. It's actually a technician ending the patient's life. And there's big, slippery slope concerns with this because in Canada, it's become 5% of all deaths, which is wild. So it is very concerning. Jewish law does not allow medical aid in dying or euthanasia ever. No. Sorry, I'm just going to be annoying. Just so I understand, there is no scenario under Jewish law where euthanasia would be acceptable? No, there's not. We do advocate for compassion, again, to these patients, these individuals. It's possible to be compassionate and supportive and kind and be there for people, even as we don't advocate for that specific action. And there are other alternatives, too, that are not aggressively, intentionally, directly ending their life. There's other options. I think what it says about society, to answer your question, and what it says about people, it's not necessarily, it doesn't say an evil thing. There's been studies where they asked patients who did this, before they did it, obviously, why? Why do you want to do this? And the researchers expected people to say, well, depression, fear of death, not wanting to be a burden. But the most common answer that is given is control, a sense of control over the dying process, where, when, how it happens. And it's because there is a sense of terror. We've discussed it already about death and about not having control about the pain one feels, and the interventions being done to them, and being in the cold, confusing environment of a hospital. And people don't want that. People want to be able to have control. Sadly, this control, which we've already been talking also about, this autonomy and ownership of the body, the control sometimes masks, in psychology, they call it a terror management theory. People have this terror, this fear, and they want to control it. So they think that by doing these actions, that will resolve the pain they're feeling, which is really pain of fear of death, and of the afterlife, and of illness that can't be healed. And therefore, they want to be able to do something about it. And sadly, it doesn't really solve the problems. And sometimes, in my work, especially, and we've been talking about a little bit of trying to comfort and guide and support those who are dying, there are tremendous interventions that people can do, that palliative care professionals, there's people that dedicate their careers to helping people. Sometimes we say, even when a cure is not possible, healing is still possible. And that can be emotional healing, spiritual healing, relational healing. And the sad thing to me, and again, I treat patients all with compassion and try not to be judgmental in their decisions, but I'm clear about my values. The sad thing to me is that there's patients who could engage in supportive types of interventions that could help them achieve some kind of healing, even if not a cure. And sadly, taking this route of medical aid and dying, it just doesn't give them that opportunity to engage in those. And it sometimes can reduce end-of-life care, which we now have entire fields of people dedicated to caring for people in the dying process. And I think it's a missed opportunity. There's so much that can be gained in supporting these individuals. Again, you're really shifting my assumptions on the role of a rabbi, because you're not just adjudicating technical or logistical concerns of Jewish law, but you're also a spiritual counselor. So how do you balance those two things? How do you tell a patient who's in pain and who is suffering and just wants to end it all? How do you balance the emotional reaction of, I want to help you and support you, versus, look, 3,000 years of Jewish law simply cannot bend to your personal condition. It almost seems like you have, in many cases, an impossible job before you on a seemingly daily basis. I mean, there's, first of all, a strategic aspect to it, where I believe, and there actually is data to support this, that a kind, nonjudgmental, supportive approach towards individuals, especially individuals suffering and scared and experiencing anticipatory grief and stress, is actually more impactful than a strict and condemning approach, which just pushes people away, and then I don't have any opportunity to have any influence or any support for them. Data shows that clergy, for example, who, even if they don't agree with what's happening, but are at least able to give pastoral, emotional support, that people are more likely then to actually listen to them and say, OK, well, what does a religion say about this? Can we talk about this? I see that you're respectful to me, so I'm willing to have a conversation with you, and we can actually get somewhere with people by being kind to them. Now, it sounds horrible to say it, because it's not just strategic, I'm not just nice to people, because then maybe I can convince them to do what I think is right, but there is that aspect. And then there's just, we've talked about also the idea of tselem elohim, of everyone being in the image of God. Even if I have values that I do believe in, and I'm strong in them, and I'll tell you, if you ask me a question, I'll say yes or no to certain things we just can't do. At the same time, I don't think that people are off their rocker, so to speak, for making some decisions. I see the suffering people are going through. I see the struggles, the impossible decisions. And so I don't think that they're evil. I understand the decisions they're making, even if I don't necessarily agree. So I can still respect them as individuals, but if they ask me, is this allowed? What does Judaism say? I also have to be very clear, and I can't lie or misrepresent my values and my faith. So it's a tightrope. But if it's sincere, if I really have respect and recognize the dignity of every human being, then people can appreciate that and are willing to hear me when I say, even, I don't agree with what you're doing, or I would do it differently. So you're obviously a rational person, and it seems that when you adjudicate Jewish law, you're doing it from a rational perspective. Interestingly enough, though, I think this is the first episode we've done where subconsciously, not deliberately, we haven't actually mentioned God. And so I'm curious, the commandment, one of the 613 commandments is b'kor holim, literally visiting the sick. And the Talmud goes on to explain that. What does it mean to visit the sick? The Talmud says, if you visit a sick person, but you don't pray on their behalf, it's as if you did not fulfill the command of visiting the sick. Do you find, be honest, that when you pray from the book of Psalms, or when you're praying for a patient, or a loved one, or a friend, whoever it may be, do you think on a practical or metaphysical level that your words and your prayer will be heard by God and can make a physical difference to the health of a patient? Because I am not referring to the data that you were just talking about. The data shows if I, as a person, show comfort, then sure. I'm saying on a spiritual level, do you think God is saying, oh, Rabbi Weiner is praying for this person, I'm going to make him better? Yeah. The experiences I have in the hospital can't help but influence this. I always remember a time when I was praying for a patient, a very difficult case, and the whole family, this patient was going into an emergency surgery, and the whole family said, can we go into your chapel, your synagogue at the hospital, and can we all have a prayer gathering? So we did. And they asked me, what prayer do you say? So I said, oh, we'll say the prayer for healing. And I knew it was a serious surgery, but that's why I said, let's say the prayer for healing. So I said the prayer for healing. And as if it was from a movie, as we finished the prayer, I get a call on my phone. I see that it's from the team, the care team. And so I said, let me skip this real quick. And I found out that this person had shockingly died, which wasn't expected, even though we knew it was a high-risk surgery. And I came out to the family and said, come on, more prayers for healing. I said, let's go upstairs. I think we need to talk. Then they found out the news. And a couple of days later, I went to the shiva, which is the morning, the days of mourning after someone dies. And there was a lot of people there to comfort the family. And I remember I walked in, and the family saw me walk in, and they pushed everyone else out of the way. And the father of the patient, who was a young patient, makes a beeline towards me, and he says, Rabbi, your prayers didn't work. And he was mad at me. And I felt horrible. I lifted his hopes. And it sent me into a spiritual crisis. And I had believed until that point that, yes, if you pray, especially if you pray hard enough, and if you're good enough, that you can change God's opinion. And even if that person was going to die, you can save their life if you just pray right. Then I said, I need to study this more and talk to people. And it's good. I like the words you use, because I studied a lot of approaches. And I found one approach that, as I read it, I remember literally where I was sitting. And this was almost 20 years ago now. I remember where I was sitting when I read this. And I read, it was Rabbi Soloveitchik. And he says, the rabbis promise us, if you look in our prayer books and in our books of theology, that God hears our prayers. But they don't promise us that God will answer our prayers in the way that we want them answered. The role of prayer is to develop a connection, a relationship with God, that that relationship can be supportive and helpful in difficult times. Why or when God answers prayers, how God answers prayers, if God answers prayers, that's beyond our comprehension, our ability to understand. So when I pray, my prayers are for the sake of that connection, for the sake of the relationship. I do hope, I do hope that they can have an impact. But I recognize that the way God runs the world is beyond my understanding. And what will happen is what God wants to happen. It is not necessarily what I want to happen. And I don't understand how that's going to work. So I pray with the hopes that they have an impact. But I also recognize, I don't know, I don't understand God's ways. And so I just do my part and I leave it to God to do the right thing. So if I can just sum up what I think you're saying, it's sort of not about the destination, it's about the journey. It's not about the outcome of the prayer, but it's the act of prayer itself and affirming or establishing a relationship with the divine. And hopefully the outcome will be the outcome I desire. But even if it isn't, that's almost not the point, because it's just the point that I'm affirming. And in Hebrew, to pray is I'm not sure if this is used in modern Hebrew, but palel means to judge, and lahit is a reflexive verb meaning to do unto yourself. So you're judging yourself. You're essentially saying, what are my values? What are the things I believe in? What is the relationship I want to have with God? And again, hopefully I will have the outcome. But even if I don't, the act of prayer itself, irrespective of the outcome, was worth it. That must be incredibly difficult to tell the family of a loved one though, as they're going into the surgery. Yes, pray. But by the way, Judaism, we don't really have any guarantees. Well, the way I say it is, let's pray for our connection and closeness to God, because these are hard times and we need God now more than ever. So I'll say to people, they'll say, will God answer us? Make God answer us? I say, what we can assure us, what we have control over is enhancing our relationship with God. We hope God does what we want. We don't understand God's ways. Also, if I would tell people before a major surgery, that if you just pray hard enough or you do certain rituals, God will respond, then what am I supposed to say when God doesn't respond in the way that they want God to respond? Does that just mean that's the end of their faith? It's like, oh, God didn't do what I wanted, so I guess this doesn't work. I guess this religion is bogus. You have to be very careful before you get people's hopes up about these things. You have a really difficult job. What made you want to be a senior rabbi at the hospital? Was this a childhood calling of yours? No, not at all. Okay, that makes more sense. Right. Like most jobs, you fall into it. I also fell in love with that. I love it. I find it to be fascinating and meaningful and important and yes, very challenging. So let's get back to not theodicy as a general theological concept, but specifically, there's an idea in the Talmud called Yesur and Shel Ahavah, literally tests out of love. The idea is that oftentimes our trials and tribulations in life, says the rabbis in the Talmud, they're almost a divine kiss. They're God wanting what's best for us. I don't know how to articulate this in a rational, intelligent manner, so I'm going to just be a dumb Gen Z-er. That's a crazy concept, that my dad loves me so much, he's going to give me terminal cancer. As a rabbi and as people who study the Talmud and who obey Jewish rituals and practices and Jewish commandments, how are we meant to make sense of so much suffering? I don't mean 3,000 years of oppression and discrimination in the 109 countries. Why does God give a kid a terminal cancer? Right. Because he loves us? Some people do find that approach meaningful, that it somehow shows God's interaction and that suffering in this world means you'll only be able to enjoy the bliss of the world to come because you get out all the suffering now and you'll be rewarded more for the suffering. But even in the Talmud, some of the rabbis responded sort of like you did and said, there's a famous line, I don't want the suffering and I don't want their reward. If you say it's a reward, still, I don't want it. For the most part, rabbis are anti-suffering. We don't want people to suffer and we do try to avoid it. I mean, why do these things happen? I mean, you're right, we don't have a good answer. I honestly think, I mean, I remember one time being called at two in the morning into the hospital, which we oftentimes try to get out of. I'm like, okay, can I just deal with this over the phone? They're like, no, you need to come now. So they're like, we need to talk to the rabbi. I walk into the ICU. I remember it like it was yesterday. I walk in and I say, rabbi, thank you for coming. We just found out very bad news. We just can't wait till the morning. Our loved one is dying. Rabbi, why is this happening? He's such a good person. Tell us, why is it happening? Two in the morning, I had to answer. And I said, I don't know. And I remember another patient says to the nurse, nurse, can we get another rabbi in here? And she was like, this one's broken. I was like, I think you're stuck with me. So it's not that I just don't know. It's that I can't know. I believe that God, you know, we say that we know that there are colors that our eyes can't pick up, right? There are sounds that our ears don't hear, like think of a dog whistle. So isn't it logical to assume that there are thoughts that our brains can't comprehend? We're physical and things that are metaphysical are beyond us to comprehend. I don't understand. And also, if I thought I understood, if I could say, you know, here's why this person is being punished for that reason, and this one's because of a previous reincarnation and this person, then I would have no obligation to try to mitigate or fight their suffering or fighting the evil. And working in a hospital, our job is fighting illness. You know, we're trying to fight, we're saying we're anti-suffering, we're anti-sickness, we're trying to make it better. And if I would just say every person that comes into the hospital, oh, that's because you're being punished. So why do we need a hospital? This is what God wants. And we say, no, Judaism says it's a commandment. Our job is to, in fact, that's why the Torah says if we gave, we got permission to heal, because there were theologies in the ancient world that thought anytime someone gets sick, it's because God wanted it. But Judaism said, no, we have permission to heal. We have permission to say, I'm fighting the illness. I'm fighting evil in this world. Then how do you make sense, again, of this precept from the Talmud of kol da'avid rachmana latav da'avid, that all that God does is for the good? Do you believe that? Yeah, I believe it in the way Maimonides believed it. He says that there is a natural order to the and God created nature. And nature is good. There's a goodness to nature. There are also mistakes that happen. There are also bad things that happen. And those are not good. Those are not what we're supposed to assume is good. But there's a general creation is good. God created a good world and this world, there are imperfections and problems from our perspective, from the way we see it. And we have to try to overcome them and choose to do the right thing. You know, you reminded me of two things. The first thing of all things is actually Family Guy, which weirdly enough is actually the second time we've referenced Family Guy on this show, which is there's an episode where the Griffins get brand new neighbors and their religion is Christian science. And they don't believe in modern medicine or medical intervention. And one of their kids has some type of disease. It's terminal. And so Lois and Peter kidnap the child and try to administer some type of medical intervention. And eventually the neighbors find out. They get their son back. And Seth MacFarlane, who I think is actually a really, really smart guy outside of, you know, the stupid fart jokes on Family Guy, he has this really fascinating dialogue, again, in this Family Guy episode where the parents explain to the Griffins, how dare you kidnap our son? You have no right to intervene on his medical behalf. If God wants him to die, so be it. And if God wants him to live, so be it. But we'll pray to him. And Lois and Peter Griffin said, but what about the fact that your prayers have been answered? God said, I will save your son. Here's a hospital. Here's chemotherapy. Here's, dare I say, a vaccine. And I found that really, really fascinating how God does answer our prayers. And the answer is through the physical world. The answer is through the innovations of modern medicine and the advancements of modern technology. That very much is the answer to our prayers. And then the second thing it reminds me of is the Hasidic rabbi, Rabbi Danziger, who was the Hasidic rabbi of the town of Alexander. Most of his followers were killed during the Holocaust. But the story goes that this young child wants to test this old revered Hasidic rabbi. And he says, Rabbi, does all of God's creations have a purpose? And the rabbi says, of course, everything has a purpose. He says, okay, well, what's the purpose of atheists? What do they do? And the rabbi says, an atheist is one of the most important creations of all, because when an atheist sees a problem, he knows God is not coming to fix it. The only person who can fix it is me, the atheist. And so the rabbi said, all of us need to have some atheist ideology within ourselves that we believe in prayer and we believe in divine intervention, but we also believe, and this is a Jewish concept, you can't rely on the miracle itself. We live in a physical world, and that means if you abstain from modern medicine, yeah, the odds of you getting sick are quite high. And that is one of the distinctions between Judaism and Christianity, where we don't take the approach of Jesus takes the wheel, because if we take our hands off the wheel on a highway, we will die. We will crash a car. So you've been very clear that within the context of Jewish law, there are no parameters, there would be no acceptance whereby euthanasia would be allowed. The Talmud states that a Jewish court that would sentence a man to death, just one man every 70 years, it's as if they're like this bloodlustful court, you know, that they just have this urge to kill one person every 70 years. So let's talk about the modern political context. What would Jewish law say about the contemporary state of the death penalty? Jewish law has a complicated approach towards capital punishment. A lot of times our perspective is that laws are meant to convey values. So you have a law in the books because it's important for society. You know, when it comes to euthanasia, one of the concerns is that when that is legalized, it might diminish the value of life in society in general, even for people who don't utilize that option. But what does it say about the value of life? So same thing with capital punishment. There is this conflict between, on the one hand, wanting to say that there are certain things that are so bad and so serious that they merit capital punishment. It's the one law that's in all five books of the Torah. You know, it is on the books that capital punishment is endorsed by Jewish law. Whereas the rabbis were very concerned that it be abused, and they didn't want it to be abused and misused. So they said, we want it on the books, but we want to have a lot of restrictions to regulate it and keep it as rare as possible so that it's a threat that's out there. It's something that could happen, but we are very reluctant to ever utilize it, because you would have to be very certain that it was accurate and true in that case, and that this was the right time to use it, which it's very hard to be totally certain that it's appropriate in every case when it's utilized. Do you think as, again, someone who adjudicates Jewish law, if you were put on a jury and the outcome of the guilty verdict would most likely be a death penalty, a death sentence, would you feel comfortable serving on that jury? Well, from a Jewish law perspective, I believe that you're allowed to live in a society that's allowed to make its own moral choices, a moral society. As long as a moral society can, they can make their choices based on their laws and standards. So even though I would be reluctant about the death penalty myself, but I wouldn't say I would not serve on the jury for that reason. And also if I have a job to do on a jury, and if I'm just, I would follow the instructions that I have as a juror, and I would do what I'm told as a juror. And I don't think that I would feel that I was violating my religions. Of course, in society, as much as I say we should be good citizens wherever we live, I don't think that I would have to, I should have to override or violate my religion to be a good citizen. There are limits to how, you know, I want to make sure that I am living with integrity to my religion, but I would follow the rules as a juror and with my Jewish values informing me, and I guess see where that led. Obviously, my values would be strong in the decision-making process. So just going back to the book of Genesis, not only B'tzelem Elohim in the image of God, but growing up in Jewish day school, the idea that man was created last is to show that man ranks supreme and above all other creations, and he has a responsibility to steward all other creations. Do you think that God loves humans and life so much that to kill a human being, the punishment must be death to that person? It's sort of like the paradox of intolerance, that in order to preserve tolerance, you have to be intolerant to those who are intolerant. So in order to preserve the sanctity of life, you actually have to take life in certain cases in order to preserve it. Yeah, I get that. I get that argument because the idea is we are trying to advocate for the value and the sanctity of life. Right. Some people could see it as a paradox. If you believe in the sanctity of life, then why are you taking away your life? But only in that context where it promotes the sanctity and value of life. So I'll clarify that point in the same way we open this conversation, which is it's fascinating because when a Jewish person is dealing with those issues, what constitutes death? You know, Rabbi, can I pull the plug? Rabbi, can I have an abortion? Rabbi, can I have biological gender reassignment? All of those questions. Yes, it's a decision between you and the doctor, and you have to bring God into that conversation. You have to bring the Jewish approach because, again, as we open the conversation, it's not your body. You know, you don't exist in a selfish vacuum of I can do what I want to myself. That's very much not the case. I know I said I had one last question, but I do want to clarify just one last point because it's your fault. I mean, you opened up this whole can of worms. Does that mean someone on a ventilator who can't breathe on their own is dead? Well, there's differences of opinion about that, but yes, some would say that if someone can't breathe on their own because their brainstem is not initiating breaths anymore, so that's what we call brain death. So those who see brain death as being death, then even though the ventilator's pumping air, they're not alive. There are those who have the approach that as long as there's a heartbeat, that the soul actually connects to the heart and that they're still alive if there's a heartbeat. So there's a lot of nuance also with that question, too. It's not so simple. If you don't mind me asking, have you ever told a family, yes, this person is dead, you can pull the plug? Well, yeah, if they are dead by criteria of Jewish law. Yeah, the respirator doesn't need to be on if the rest of the body is not functioning. Do those decisions keep you up at night? Yeah, for sure, especially because sometimes rabbis will be afraid to make this decision. Understandably, they're major decisions. And they'll say, oh, you know, Rabbi Weiner, he deals with this stuff every day. Ask him. Rely on him. Or people will say, Rabbi, we can't decide. We need you to decide for us because it's too much for us. And I get that it's a hard decision. So I will, as a favor or to try to help people, I'll say, okay, put it on me. I'll make this decision. I'll tell you what I think is the right thing based on Jewish law. And here's what I think we should do. And then I have to think to myself afterwards, like, one day I'm going to have to answer to God for that decision. I really hope I made the right decision. I have to do it with proper conscientiousness and care and respect for the gravity of the decision, but also recognizing that people need the rabbi, not just to be strict about everything and just to say everything's not allowed or everything is, you know, I don't know what to do, but to actually make decisions and provide real practical guidance. And that's actually a line that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, one of the leading Spartic rabbis of the 20th and early 21st century, I was actually at his funeral with, I think it was 800,000 people. He said, it's very easy for a rabbi to be stringent, just say no to everything and then you don't have to worry. But the true mark of a really rigorous, intelligent, intellectual rabbi is someone who can see the nuances and sometimes say no, but also sometimes say yes and see the complexity of life. The issue or one of the issues I've been really concerned with, especially post Charlie Kirk, has been the demoralization of young people, particularly Gen Z men, even more particularly Gen Z white men. And most of our audience is not Jewish, although it's funny because this is the first episode we've had where I have not had to quote the New Testament. So it'd be a little weird if I did have to quote the New Testament to you, but I digress. What would you say to the young people watching who are looking for meaning in life, looking for answers in life? And my understanding, just based on this conversation and knowing you a little bit from before, is you find a lot of meaning in Jewish law itself and trying to find what do the rabbis and really what does God want from me? Other people within Judaism, they find meaning through music or they find meaning through learning the Talmud. But for you, it seems like Jewish medical ethics, that's how you find your purpose. What would your message be to young people who are finding their place in this world or on a more micro level, who are trying to find a relationship with God? Yeah, I would say that the world is changing very rapidly right now. This is something I see in the hospital because we're also an academic institution and research and I see the radical changes that are happening really to humanity itself that we're going to start seeing in the coming years, decades, transforming humanity. And oftentimes it happens in ways that people don't understand or appreciate. But oftentimes we recognize that the younger people are more in touch with the things that are happening and the changes that are happening and we're going to need them to lead us through a very complicated coming decades. And what I would say is that we need the next generation. We need people that are ready to take responsibility and ready to take upon themselves leadership and to recognize, hopefully from my perspective, that there are traditions that have incredible wisdom, that just need someone to interpret it and apply it to the changing world. And we're desperate for people that can both appreciate the changes that are happening in the world, as well as the ancient, timeless wisdom that can guide us through those changes. I think that's a beautiful answer. And Rabbi, I really can't thank you enough, not just for being the first Jew on this show, but really providing a really illuminating case study on what Judaism is. I think there's so many misconceptions. And you are a rational, intelligent, not that I need to explain this to you, but I think you have really shown that Judaism is not just something that you study in the study halls. It's not just a book, but it's life itself. And it very much encapsulates the most personal, intimate details of the human experience. So I really want to thank you for coming on the show. Thank you. I'm happy to do it anytime.