OMINOUS SECURITY CHALLENGES -Ambassador Robert C O'Brien

We hear Ambassador O'Brien. Hello, everyone. How are you today? Hello, Mr. Ambassador. Thank you so much. We deeply appreciate your time with us this morning. It's early there in California, but we would ask you, sir, for your perspective of the security challenges here in the Americas as it relates to the United States vis-a-vis external threats from adversarial nation-states and from other terrorist groups. Kindly give us your thoughts. Are you with us? Do we still have the connection? I can hear you. There's a little bit of echo on your questions. I think that's Congressman Pittenger speaking. Yes, sir. Yes, sir, it is. This is Robert Pittenger. And I just wanted to have your perspective of the security challenges here in the Americas. Great to be with you. Buenos dias. Bonjour. Good morning. It's a privilege to be with you this morning, Congressman. Thank you. Kindly give us your thoughts, sir, of the security challenges here in the region. I'm sorry, Robert. The last part of your question faded out. You can just repeat it slowly. Yes, sir. If you could, Mr. Ambassador, please provide us your perspective of the security challenges in the region from adversarial nation-states as internal corruption or from other known terrorist groups. Well, thank you. I think the question was, and if I get this wrong, correct me, but what are the security challenges facing the region, a region that I'm talking to you from here on the Pacific Ocean in California? And let me just first by saying what an honor it is to be here with you, Congressman, to be here with the forum, which has a great reputation around the world, the Security Intelligence and Security Forum. I've got a number of colleagues who are there, and I wish them the best. I think my former Trump administration colleague, Carla Sands, our ambassador to Denmark, may be with you today. And again, it's great to be in Panama, even by Zoom. I've been to Panama several times, and the last time President Cartesio very warmly welcomed us during the height of COVID. And we came to Panama to talk about how do we, A, deal with the COVID pandemic, how do we get PPE and vaccines and ventilators and all the things that needed to get to Panama and the region? I went to Colombia on that trip as well. But how do we come out of COVID? How do we get the economies going and give people hope and jobs and secure economic security as we emerge from the pandemic? And so I was there at a time of lockdown, and yet the people of Panama were very warm, so I'm glad to be back. I think when we talk about the overall security issues in the region, number one, the region is going to have a very important role to play because of the war in Ukraine. There's a global food and humanitarian crisis because of grain not being able to be shipped from Ukraine, potash from Belarus. There are countries around the world that are suffering and hungry. And one of the great things about the region in Latin America, South America, Central America, is the amount of production of agricultural products, the production of oil and gas, the production of minerals that are needed around the world. And so I think that the region is going to have a very important role to play worldwide that we haven't seen in many years. I think number two within the region, we're going to see a lot of economic, and we'll talk about this more, I know with China, but there's a change in the supply chains. And one of the things that we saw during COVID for the United States was that we could rely on our trusted partners, especially in Mexico and other countries in the region, to get our supplies coming to us, to get the manufactured goods that we needed, even in the midst of the pandemic and the lockdowns. And we realized how close we were, not by family, by kinship, but by being great neighbors. And I think one of the things we've been, we pushed for in the Trump administration was not only to bring American manufacturing back to America, to the United States, but to bring manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, farm implements, cars, bring that manufacturing back to the region, back to Mexico, Central America, South America, where we have our trusted providers and where we know we've gotten many, many years of friendship and commerce. And so I think the region is going to benefit as countries start pulling out of China because of the totalitarian practices there and start looking for new places to manufacture. Just like America will, I think, have a renaissance of manufacturing. I think we're going to see that in Latin America. As far as the security challenges, I think the number one challenge that we have in the region, and look, it's an American, it's a United States challenge as well as a regional challenge, and that is the rise of the cartels. I mean, when you go even to a place like Brazil, which is an industrialized, very modern country, big economy, democracy, great place. And I had the chance to visit Brazil when I was in office as well. The premier capital cartel has become incredibly powerful and controls swaths of territory and a massive economy. We see the amount of money going into the cartels in Mexico and other countries in the region is huge, and that's undermining the democratic elected governments of those countries. It undermines security, tourism, commerce, and we've got to root out these cartels. They're a huge danger, and they're very brutal. I mean, the cartels are as brutal as anything we see in Syria or Iraq with ISIS, and it disrupts the fabric of the country. It's a moral problem in addition to being a national security and economic problem. So I think one of the things we did at the outset of COVID, Bill Barr, the attorney general, and myself and others, we put into place a naval and coast guard operation with our partners in the region, with the Central American countries, South American countries, to try and disrupt the flow of narcotics, opioids, fentanyl, marijuana, cocaine into America. We knew the cartels would try and take advantage of the pandemic and the lockdown to move more product to North America, and we stopped over four billion dollars above the baseline with our partners in drug seizures. So we've got to be vigilant, and we've got to work together as a team. This is not just an American issue. It's not a Latin American issue. This is an issue that affects all of us, both on the consumption side in America, which is a terrible crisis for our country, but also on the production side in the region. So I think those are some of the opportunities, but also the security challenges that we face. But I'm very optimistic about the western hemisphere. I think we've got durable democracies in most countries, with a few exceptions, that are going to go back and forth between conservative and liberal governments. But we've got a great opportunity because our geography, our ingenuity, and our kinship and cultural similarities we have in our region, I think there's a lot to be optimistic about. Thank you, sir. As you know, Mr. Ambassador, the evolving technologies have a transformational effect on the security challenges that we face, whether it's 5G, AI, quantum computing, digital currencies. All of these have major implications. We are challenged for the United States, what we believe now is not just a competitor, but by his own statements, by President Xi, seeks a global Marxist communism. And the utility of these technologies in a non-kinetic sense has a major impact in how this war is being played out. Could you give us your thinking on what we should be doing in the Americas together to be better prepared with cybersecurity, with AI, digital currencies, quantum computing, 5G, all these issues that are so relevant and important? Well, Congressman, as you know, you've basically laid out what's called China 2025 in Beijing. The Chinese have a program under this moniker, China 2025, to dominate the world and to become the sole source supplier, not just a competitor, but the sole source supplier for advanced AI, for robotics, for electric vehicles, for autonomous vehicles, 5G, 6G, 7G, when we get there. Across the board, China wants to control all those markets. And those sectors are the future of the world. No one's trying to keep China from doing well, from innovating, having their own ideas, building their own products, and letting them compete in the world. But what we don't want to do is have a situation, to some extent, that we had at the outset of COVID, where China had such a monopoly on a supply of personal protective equipment and ventilators and things of that nature, that they could use it as leverage to control the rest of the world. We want an open trade system. We want the best ideas, whether they're in Buenos Aires or Mexico City or Sao Paulo or New York or San Francisco or Austin or Salt Lake City. We want those ideas to flourish. And if they come from Beijing, that's terrific. What we don't want to do is have one country dominate the future. And that's what the Chinese are hoping to do. And as you mentioned, they have a Marxist-Leninist ideology. I spoke about this in Phoenix in 2020 and talked about the ideological war that we're in with China. Fortunately, it's not a kinetic war at this point, but there is an ideological war going on. President Vladimir Putin in Russia believes that the breakup of the Soviet Union was the worst geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century. He has someone who agrees with him, but not for the same reasons. Xi Jinping feels the same way in Beijing. But Xi Jinping isn't concerned about the fall of the Russian Empire. Putin's really a nationalist. He's not an ideologue. He's not a communist ideologue. He's a Russian nationalist. And he was disappointed that the territory of Russia, of what he saw as a Russian empire, being dismembered. What Xi and his colleagues in the Politburo are upset about is that Russia and the Soviet Union were the major Marxist-Leninist partner for them. And to see Marxist-Leninism rejected in Russia was the tragedy for them. They have no concerns about the Russian territory. In fact, China has great claims and ambitions to take much of Eastern Russia for itself, and I think will do so at some point. But they were disappointed at the ideological loss in the war. They remain an unrepentant Marxist-Leninist, Stalinist-Maoist country. And that's a universal ideology, just like democracy and human rights and freedom and liberty that we all subscribe to. It came out of the Great Revolutions, the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Bolivarian Revolution. Those revolutions were based on the idea of liberty and equality and egalitarianism and individual rights. The Chinese Revolution is very different, but it's also universal, just like our revolutions. And they have a very dystopian view of the world, where the people of the world are there to be servants of the government and the state and the Ohio. We're going to benefit in this region, but what we can't allow is the Chinese to steal our ideas, to steal our innovations and inventions, and to control the future. That's not good for our way of life and for liberty. Robert, if you're speaking, I've lost audio, unfortunately. I'm still not getting audio from Panama City. I don't know if you can hear me. Mr. Bastard, do you hear me now? I can hear you. I've lost the video. Let me see if I can get the video back. Well, one thing at a time, I guess. Somebody didn't like what you were saying. Yeah, maybe it was our friends in Beijing. Okay, I think I've got the video back and I've got the audio. Yes, sir. Well, to that end of your comments, then allow us, sir, your perspective of what, then, are China's interests and objectives in the Americas? What should the Americas be concerned about or be looking out for relative to their own security needs? Well, that's a great question, Robert, and I think it falls into three categories. Number one, the Chinese view of the Americas, and when I say the Americas, I'm including Canada, United States, Mexico, Central America, South America, the Caribbean. Yes, sir. They're looking at us as a resource base. They want the oil and gas from our countries, which we have an abundance in, certainly in North America, but also in South America, places like Venezuela. Otherwise, certainly Mexico, Canada, the U.S. They're looking for the great stores of minerals in places like Chile and the Andes, Central South America. They're looking for farmland. They're buying up farmland, even in America, and interestingly enough, they're buying up farmland that abuts and is adjacent to military bases, and we're letting them do it. It's a terribly short-sighted policy, but they're doing it all over Latin America, but they want the food supply to feed China. China can't feed itself, and even with declining demographic, it's going to need food from the world, and its number one target for food, for minerals, for gas, for oil, is going to be Latin America and North America. Canada, the United States, Brazil on the food front, other countries for the mineral resources. So that's number one, and look, they don't look at those areas and sectors as places to be developed for the good of the country. They're not looking for soybeans from Brazil for the good of the people of Brazil and for the farmers in Brazil. They're looking at it as nothing other than a source that they can suck those resources out of South America and put them into China. Number two, in the geopolitical context, they're looking at Latin America, especially Central and South America, as another front in a potential kinetic war. If there was a war in Taiwan, look, they're going to look to shut down, using either sabotage or asymmetric means, the Panama Canal. They'll look to use the region to undermine the United States' interests. Hello? Can you hear me, Congressman? Hello? Can you hear me? I think, try again. Congressman, can you hear me? Yes, sir, I hear you now. Okay, sorry. Someone doesn't like what we're talking about. But I don't know where I dropped off, but look, China wants to exploit South America, Central America, North America for mineral resources, agricultural resources, oil and gas. Number two, they want to use it as a geopolitical bulwark against America. If, heaven forbid, there was a kinetic war, certainly they'll take out the Panama Canal if they can and wage war against the United States, even if it's irregular warfare using bases and cells in Latin America. And then third, what they're looking for is political support. Not because there's a confluence of ideologies, or maybe one or two or three countries in the region, but they want support, and they've been successful in this, to cut off Taiwan. So we've had countries in the region which have been traditionally very supportive of Taiwan switching their diplomatic recognition to China. They want votes at the UN. Again, not because they care about issues that are important to Latin America or the Caribbean region, but they want votes that are good for China. They want to take over international institutions like the WHO so that they can control the narrative and how we respond to pandemics. And by the way, the biggest pandemics, the last five pandemics we've had, from SARS to COVID to avian flu, have all come out of China. And they want to control the narrative, just like the former Soviet Union wanted to control the narrative on Chernobyl, the Chinese want to control the narrative on pandemics that are coming out of China. And so if they can get votes at the WHO from countries in the region, I used to serve at the UN, a lot of votes at the UN come from the Caribbean and South Central America. If they can control those votes, that helps them politically. So those are the three things. They're looking for political power. They think they can manipulate and use the countries in the region. They're looking for military advantage in the event of a conflict. And they're certainly looking at the region as a resource-rich haven to pull the resources out of the region and give them to the people of China and further develop their economy. So none of that's good for the region. It's all very good for China. Yes, sir. I concur. To your point, the last 50 years I have been involved helping the underground church in China. And today it is more repressive than ever before. While markets have opened up and we allowed them most favored nation trading status and access to global markets and financial world, the hope was that personal freedoms would go alongside. But that hasn't happened. I think the caution that you're conveying now is while China brings with it some economic support, along with it brings a repressive government that does not support the dignity of man and does not allow for freedoms of conscience to exist. One last question. We've heard a lot, sir, about the spy balloons that have gone across America. Give us your thoughts on what the intent was with these spy balloons. And was this just a provocative stroke by the Chinese? Or do they have other nefarious intentions there? Well, that's a great question. And I've spent a lot of time on TV interviews over the past few weeks. I'm an unfortunate congressman. If you've been in Washington, you've had to see me on TV a fair amount talking about the balloon. But before I get to that issue, let me make a comment. You're absolutely right about the naive view we have of China. We believe that if we turned a blind eye in the West, the rest of the world turned a blind eye to the human rights abuses, the persecution of religion, to the totalitarian surveillance society, to Tibet, to what's happening in Xinjiang with the Uyghurs, the elimination of democracy in Hong Kong. If we turn a blind eye to all that and we let the Chinese get rich and let them steal our intellectual property and basically steal our resources, plunder our resources in the region and around the world, that China, as it got rich, would become more like us. And that was a very naive view because it didn't happen. And when you talk about the persecution of the churches, that's something that goes to my heart. And I think one of the great things about the Western Hemisphere is freedom of religion. And to see the thriving churches, to see the Catholic Church, to see the evangelical churches, to see my church. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and we have deep roots in the entire region. To even see our Muslim brothers and sisters and Jewish brothers and sisters who are all able to worship according to the dictates of their conscience, whether they're in Mexico City or Sao Paulo or Montevideo or the Dominican or wherever they are, with a few exceptions like Cuba or some of the problems we have in two other countries in the region, that's such a blessing. That blessing of liberty that we can go to church on Sunday or on Saturday as dictates of our faith require and pray to God and not be harassed by the secret police and not have our pastors and priests and bishops thrown in jail. What a blessing that is for the entire region. That's not a blessing that's enjoyed in China. And it's something we have to consider as we get deeper and deeper into a relationship with China. So thank you for pointing that out, and thank you for your work with the church in China and trying to be a beacon. And look, it's not just the United States, it's not just Canada, it's Mexico, it's all the countries in the region that serve as a beacon of hope to the Christians and the other religious minorities, the Uyghurs in China. That there is a different life, that there's a belief in individual freedom and that there's hope for them that they can worship according to the dictates of their own conscience. So thank you for keeping that light alive. On the balloon issue, look, that was a humiliation to the United States. And it was done intentionally by the Chinese. It was a balloon that could maneuver. It came right over the width and breadth of our country. It's something I don't think would have ever happened in the Trump administration. I can tell you we would have shot that thing down as soon as we saw it appear, and the Chinese would have suffered severe consequences. In this case, there were no consequences. This balloon flew over America. It lingered over and loitered over our nuclear silos for the missile-based version, part of our nuclear triad, our nuclear deterrent. It then went to the Air Force bases where our strategic bombers are located and lingered over those and collected and took pictures and collected intelligence. And it then went out to our sub pins on the East Coast and saw the submarine portion of our deterrent. And so it covered the entire nuclear triad of the United States. It lingered over our country for a week. It was maneuverable. And it was an invasion of our sovereignty. And I mean, if there's anything that binds us together in the region, it's a concern over our national sovereignty and our airspace and our waters. This is not unlike what they did with the fishing trawlers off the coast of Ecuador when they plundered fish and basically set up a city of ships and trawlers off the coast of the West Coast of South America. But they invaded our sovereignty. And there have been no consequences. I don't think the other three balloons that were shot down were Chinese-related. At least that's what we've been briefed by the intelligence community here. But the first balloon was just a thumb in the eye to the United States. And it showed how little regard China has for us and how arrogant and how overconfident they've become in themselves. And I think that's a mistake. I wouldn't bet against the United States or our partners or allies in the free world. Countries have done that many times over the past. It's never worked out well for them. And again, I say that not with any sense of braggadocio. Winston Churchill once said about the United States, America always says the right thing, but it's only after it's exhausted every other option. And look, I think we're waking up to the threat from China. I think the balloon was a real wake-up call for the American people. And it was a wake-up call in the sense of going back to your cyber issue, Congressman, about TikTok, the app, for example. TikTok collects data just like that balloon. We've got 100 million balloons in American households with TikTok. We banned TikTok at the end of the Trump administration. It was overturned. But other countries like India have banned TikTok and 400 other Chinese apps because they don't want China spying on its people and getting the biometric and geolocation for all the people of India. I think all of us could learn from Prime Minister Modi, who's on the border with China, who's been attacked by China, is forced to have been mutilated and killed by the Chinese on the border. And he banned all these Chinese apps from the phones of Indian citizens. I think all of our countries in the region should be looking at doing something similar to what Prime Minister Modi did, who really led the way on this. So I think we'll get there on these challenges. But I think the balloon was a real wake-up call to the American people. And when you're out talking to folks, just in the stores and the golf courses and the movies and just everyday life, people are astounded at the gall, to use a Yiddish term, of the people in China, that they think they can do this to America. And I think it was a wake-up call, not just to America, but these balloons have been traveling all over South America, Central America, the same way they've traveled over the United States. So I think it's a wake-up call for all of us, Congressman. Great question. Thank you, sir. We so appreciate your time with us this morning. Your leadership for our country and, frankly, for the world has been extraordinary. So we congratulate you. And we look forward to further discussions in the future. God bless you. Thank you. Well, God bless you. And God bless all the conference attendees. And God bless the Americas. It's great to be with so many good friends. And have a great conference. You have my best wishes for success in Panama City. Thank you, sir. Good day. Take care.