Jack Dorsey On Nation-State Bitcoin Reserves, AI, Mining, and More ｜ EXCLUSIVE Interview

I'm interested in the internet having a native currency. The best manifestation technology for that is today Bitcoin. I'm interested in open protocols for social media. The best manifestation of that that I found today is Nostr. I imagine that there is some equivalent for artificial intelligence in the open source world that has not fully emerged yet. But all these technologies can intersect one another. What do you feel like you're working on most at this point? I'm learning how to learn better because I think that's the thing that compounds the most. You know, it's a good time to reflect on how we learn as humans as well and like how we can improve that. And if I can do that for myself, I can probably do that for my organization as well. All right. Welcome to the show. Today we have a true pioneer in technology, Mr. Jack Dorsey. He is best known as the co-founder and the two-time former CEO of Twitter. Jack has revolutionized how the world communicates with 140 characters or less. And he's also the visionary behind Block, the parent company of Square. And he champions financial innovation and driving our financial future built on Bitcoin. He went from coding dispatch systems as a teen to shaping all of our global conversations and value transfer. And honestly, Jack's journey is nothing short of extraordinary. So I'm grateful and excited today to dive into the mind of a tech trailblazer whose work has helped define our digital age. Jack, welcome to hosting Bitcoin. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Pretty good. Did you have a chance to meditate this morning? Yeah, I did. It wasn't as long as I'd like, but I was able to. Got a bunch of meetings this morning early. Are you usually able to keep up with your practice unless you're traveling? And if you don't mind, what's kind of your standard protocol when you're meditating? I'm able to usually keep up with the mornings. Ideally, you would want to meditate twice, once you wake up and once you're ready for sleep. But the evening one is always a little bit hard. But I've learned that even if I do five minutes, as long as I'm doing it every day, it's meaningful. And I followed a Vipassana practice, which is just really observing what's going on when you close your eyes. And you're just observing everything going on in your body, your mind. And it's very, very, very simple, but also very hard to keep that focus. It's just training your mind to focus more and more and more. What do you think is different? Because I know you've been doing it for many years. And I'm about 10 years into an hour a day. But I'm curious what I have to look forward to, if I can get up to 20 years in two hours a day. How has that changed for you? I don't know. I think everyone has a different path, right? So it's a question of the practice and what your goal is and what you're trying to seek out of it. For me, it's always been about how do I hone my focus and my attention and be a better observer of everything that's going within me and going on around me as well. When you're bringing that into the context of meeting a ton of people, running several large companies, how do you feel like it impacts your decision making, either throughout the day or over the long course of time? Everything to do with focus. A company is about prioritizations and making sure that we understand what's most important, what's next most important, and so on and so forth. And if we don't, we're just going to do too much and we won't be able to do anything at all, in fact. And that's really important that we maintain that focus. But it really comes down to that. That's how it translates. When you're applying it to... I mean, you said we've all got our own personal experience and our own personal journey with this. What are some of the things that have come up for you most recently that you feel like you're currently working toward? You can be as personal or as general as you'd like to be, but just generally, what do you feel like you're working on most at this point? I'm learning how to learn better. I'm really fascinated by how we learn, how I learn, and how I can increase that skill because I think that's the thing that compounds the most. So it's interesting we're in this time of AI where we're building these learning models, and I think it's a good time to reflect on how we learn as humans as well and how we can improve that. And if I can do that for myself, I can probably do that for my organization as well. Do you feel like having tools like AI has given you sort of an accelerator in your own learning, or has it made you a little bit more complacent in what skills you develop for yourself? Oh no, only accelerator. But I think that's a decision we make. I think everything in front of us, every situation, every person is a teacher, and it's a decision as to whether we learn from it or not. And you can approach a technology like AI and you can decide not to, or just be treated as a surrogate and be lazy about it, or you can choose to enable it to push you in different directions. When you're thinking about prioritizing what you give your time and energy and focus to, there's no shortage of opportunity that we've got. And you've chosen to focus, as far as I can see, mainly on Bitcoin payments and decentralized social media. How do you put those ahead of things like working on AI? Or do I have the mix wrong and you're really doing it? I just don't know about it. Well, one, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I'm interested in the internet having a native currency. The best manifestation technology for that is today, Bitcoin. I'm interested in open protocols for social media. The best manifestation of that that I found today is Nostr. And I imagine that there's some equivalent for artificial intelligence in the open source world that has not fully emerged yet, but is there somewhere. But all these technologies can intersect one another. And it's just a question of how we use these. I think AI certainly will need a payments foundation and it will need a protocol for moving money around the internet. Bitcoin can be that. It'll need a protocol for communicating. Nostr can be that, especially with humans that are more remote. So all these things can actually cooperate and positively reinforce one another. I don't think it's an either or for me. Was there a moment when you started to shift your focus toward working on things like Bitcoin and Nostr? Or is it just a sequence of little incremental shifts? Incremental shifts. I think that's life. Like everything compounds into something new. At least that's been my experience. What led you to the realization that you were the right fit to be working on it? I don't know if I am the right fit, but I'm working on it. I never thought about it that way, but I'm working on it. Maybe a better question would be what qualities within yourself or what in your personal background led you to be drawn toward this area? I don't know. I'm just curious and interested about it. I don't think there's anything specific or unique about me, but this is what I want to see in the world, what I want to use in the world. As simple as that for me. I think focusing on Bitcoin in particular is a very intentional choice because there is a wide world of other things that we could be working on in a very noisy crypto space around it. We're very much aligned in that way with Abundant Mines, just working on Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining specifically, why did you make the choice to build exclusively for Bitcoin and not offer protocols and products that integrated with some of the other things in that space? Again, it wasn't about Bitcoin. It's about making sure the internet has an open protocol for money transmission. It has a native protocol. Bitcoin has all the properties and attributes that I would want from that protocol and currency. The biggest thing is it doesn't have a CEO. It doesn't have a single leader. I can't name any other project that has that property. I think that's critical for money, that there's no single entity owning it. The developer community around it is incredible and very principled. That's what aligned me. You've been a CEO for a long time now and worked on many different projects. How do you feel like your leadership style has changed? Has it had anything to do with being exposed to leaderless organizations like Bitcoin? Has that impacted how you approach companies like BlockMail? Well, I've never really wanted to be a leader or a CEO. That's not how I grew up. That wasn't my desire. I've always been more interested in the open source models than I have the corporate models. I just think they ultimately scale better and there's proof points everywhere. Look at Linux, look at Bitcoin. However, the way to get some of these ideas out is to build a corporate structure. You have to learn what you have to learn. I'm more a hacker than anything else. I do whatever it takes to make it work. We figure out the next step and we learn that. We go next step, next step, next step. I've never really thought about leadership style or what those principles are. I've only thought about what's the next thing I need to make work and what gaps do I have to fill in order to make that work and go from there. What pulled you into, you mentioned it a little bit, what pulled you into doing this in the vehicle of public companies to start out with if you knew that it wasn't something you necessarily wanted to do? Was it just kind of a reluctant, this is how you have to do it to get it done? Well, no, I talked about the idea of Twitter and another company that I was working at during a hack week. Right there, there was a moment when I could have gone off and done this by myself or worked with this group of people that I loved and I knew that could help a lot and I chose the latter. But that came at a cost of now it's part of this company. It's got people invested in it. It's got people with equity and the flywheel just goes. It was a fast way to scale. I don't know if it was the best way to scale it, but it was certainly a fast way. So do you think of yourself rather than a leader or an executive more as just the head builder? No, I don't really think of myself. I think about the project and I think about what we're building. I want to make sure we have the right team to do that. Yeah, I'm focused on what we need to do next and what gaps we have and how to fill them. Where did naming yourself the Blockhead come from? Well, the company's name is Block and someone has to head it technically. It's a little, I don't know. It's a joke, but it's cool. So we're directly involved in the mining space, specifically with co-locating for smaller retail and small business miners. And I know you've been working on building not just facilities, but a new kind of ASIC chip as well as a fully integrated miner. I'm curious if you've got any updates on what Block is doing in the mining space through the proto department and if you've got any interesting projects coming up that you'd love to share. No updates above and beyond our blog. I encourage you all listening, let's go to the proto blog. We want to build a mining chip system and rig in the open. It'd be as open source as we can make it. Obviously, there's some components that come from companies that we don't have control over those particular parts. But the whole goal of this is to build a mining system that anyone can take and they can get a full rig or they can design their own system around it. And the team is focused a lot on reliability, on performance and on customization. So we'll be able to deliver something that can fit into any application that you need it to. If you're doing energy recapture, if you're doing just a standard mining rig, if you're building a hot tub and want to recapture the heat for the hot tub, all these things will work if you're doing the space heater. And you want to do a more consumer thing. That flexibility has not been in the market yet. And we want to see how creative people can get with these components. And then the more energy we see around there, the more Bitcoin becomes secure. It's not just about finding the Bitcoin, it's securing the network as well. That's part of the role of the miner. So right now, as far as I know publicly, the only people that are able to use it or that currently are using it are Core Scientific with a large batch. But is your intention eventually for this to go to anybody and everybody, like you said, with a hot tub and a single mining unit running? Yeah, I believe we have some beta customers out there that are doing just that. It's small, but we have some interesting units in the field that are testing different applications because we need this feedback to make the best chip and the best system. And so the teams strategically reach out to people who are doing interesting and differentiated things that we can learn from. What made you, because the entire publicly traded Bitcoin mining market is smaller than the market cap of Block, how did you evaluate making the decision to go into a market that's likely not going to be bigger than the current company? And what was kind of the motivation to get into mining itself versus other parts of the protocol or the network? Number one, the need. If we want Bitcoin to succeed, we need to remove single points of failure and centralizing efforts. The mining hardware is one of those. You have effectively one company who's building all this hardware. They're out of China. And that is a single point of failure that can really damage the network. Second is that we have an opportunity around taking a lot of market share from this competitor because a lot of the miners we've talked to have significant reliability issues, don't have the ability to customize for what they want in their applications and are just happy with it, are not happy with the performance. So I think we can win on quality because we can be actually customer focused instead of just building something that people see a market opportunity. Like we've really talked with people and gotten deep on what the needs are. And our products will reflect that. So even if the opportunity is not as large as our overall company, or say something like Cash App or Cash App Card or Square, it's very, very meaningful. And there's a lot of profit potential as well within mining. We all know that mining is a really competitive industry. You don't get to survive or succeed in mining for very long if you're not pretty on top of every aspect of it. What do you think will set, not just miners that are doing self-mining, but companies involved in the mining space, the good ones from the ones who don't make it? Miners in particular, or like suppliers for mining hardware? Anybody in the industry. And I ask that because you can take multiple points. You can be a self-miner and develop your own ASIC. You can do co-location hosting and develop energy resources. But I'm curious, from a holistic kind of lateral thinking view, what do you think are the successful strategies, at least over the next decade, since this is quite different than it was 10 years ago, people just running it on their laptops? I mean, I think number one is, again, this all depends on your business, but like to have a real customer focus is always critical. Like who are we serving and why? If we're just mining, it feels like it's a strategy between finding the right and efficient power sources and then having flexibility in your data centers to maybe do things inclusive of AI computation. So having that sort of flexibility, knowing that you have these giant warehouses and you have access to significant power, having a strategic sense of how to make that better and also the flexibility feels like the only winning combination. I'd agree with you. And it seems like to me, mining is this really interesting puzzle piece in many different businesses, whether you're talking about data centers generally or energy resources, it's not necessarily the whole strategy, but an interesting component to almost any strategy. I'm curious what your opinion is as well, because this was just a protocol and software piece that you could run on your laptop. Now we're talking about industrial facilities and starting to get into nation state mining. What do you think is the impact, positive or negative on individual nation states actually starting to secure the network? Is that a positive for decentralization of the network? Is that a threat ultimately? How do you look at governments getting involved in that space? I think it can go either way. Bitcoin works because it's both a consensus and there's adversarial parties who are trying to remove and de-risk it. So I think a government or a corporation, there can be centralizing forces and the counters against that are the developers and the node runners. So as long as the network is hyper-aware of what can be centralized and what is being centralized and understanding that risk, I think that's pretty critical. How do you feel about the concept of nation state reserves? Well, I think it's good for the nation state. I don't know if it's necessarily good for Bitcoin. It's probably good for Bitcoin holders in the moment that the Bitcoin is bought. But if this ends up just being digital gold, I think it's failed. I don't think it has a life. If it ends up being a currency that people can use on a daily basis, then it's exceeded. You have to go back to the white paper. This is P2P electronic cash. And we have not realized that yet. And that's why I'm in it. I'm not in it to create digital gold and just watch a number go up like I want to be able to use it. I want everyone in the world to not have to ask for permission to move money. And to have to ask their bank whether they can deposit something or withdraw. And I don't know. If we don't achieve that, to me, it's a failed project. We should move on to something else. What would stop it from being used from payments at this point? Or what would relegate it to just being digital gold, in your opinion? Well, no one uses it as payments. That's it. And if it's not accessible in that sense, if people don't understand how to use it as payments, if it's not easy, if merchants aren't accepting it, all these things will compound into people just not seeing it as relevant money. And instead of just being this digital gold rock. Bitcoin mining allows you to acquire Bitcoin at a lower cost than buying Bitcoin outright and produces consistent results. At Abundant Mines, we take care of setup, maintenance and performance so that your miners can run efficiently. It's a straightforward way to grow your Bitcoin stack without the guesswork. Book a call to start now. Do you think that it's a lack of development? Because we have things like Lightning and Feddy and other kind of layer two, more payments focused protocols that live on top of the Bitcoin base layer. But is it more of a it needs to be used question to you? Or do you still think that there's far more to build? There's always more to build. I just think it's not accessible to people. Number one issue is like people don't have Bitcoin and they have no reason to buy it other than the investment value. Number two is when they have Bitcoin, where can they actually use it if they can use it? So there's a lot of chicken and egg problems. And I think many of them are being worked on. But ultimately, it has to come down to the fact that people value this thing for a reason and they want to use it. So I do think obviously, I think the investment vehicle is a good first step. We built a cash app and we built a Bitcoin exchange and cash app for that very purpose because it's the fastest and easiest way to get people access to Bitcoin. But the next step is the hard one, which is like how do they utilize it instead of just like watching it go up and down? How do they actually use it to exchange value? And how does that benefit like a merchant? How does it benefit an individual? So that's what we're focused on now. You've said before that when you're building products within Square Cash App, that it was not possible to be a fully Bitcoin company at this point. And I don't know if you meant that just for publicly traded companies or in general. What do you think the reason is that you couldn't be a fully Bitcoin focused company? I think I said that you can't be a company that is on the principle of Bitcoin. It goes against companies generally because the company has a very particular incentive, which is to grow and to grow its margins and profits. And Bitcoin is an open protocol. It's built around open source. It's built around the grace of people sacrificing their time and money and energy to make it better every single day. And in many ways, that's at odds with what a company has to do. So a company that would be 100% dedicated to Bitcoin, there's always some tax in the system, right? Always someone has to pay the bills, pay the salaries. And how are you actually doing that? And I haven't experienced a model where that works fully. And that's okay. It's not a bad thing. But I think we have to be open and transparent about it and then just build what you need to to build your business. And then as much as you can, help the internet get a native protocol for money, help Bitcoin be that. When you're thinking about building for Block, you really ride the line between highly regulated traditional payments infrastructure and working and integrating with that system and then building these new products that are going off in a totally new and exciting direction. How do you balance those two that seem to be kind of at odds or at least are very different focuses? I don't think about it that much because I think we have to... What is the most important thing? That someone values what we're building. And if they value it, we grow as a company. If they don't value it, we shrink. So I'm trying to look at every method I can employ to become more valuable to more people. And that's it. And I think Bitcoin and contributing to open source helps us in that goal. And I think obviously our businesses do that. But my only focus is like, how do we become more valuable to more people? And everything falls from that. What do you think are the opportunities that you wish you had more bandwidth and more resources to pay attention to? Is there anything that you feel like is just on the outside edge of what you can realistically devote resources to right now, but that's a huge opportunity that you would love to see built? No, I guess I don't think about it that way because I want those constraints because it helps me prioritize. I believe if something is really important and you ignore it, it'll always come back in some way. And if you notice that it keeps coming back, maybe pay a little bit of attention of it. And then maybe that attention grows over time. And it becomes a thing, but I don't want to force anything out. Like I want to be open to those signals. And yeah, I think we're focused on exactly the right things. I spend my time in a way that I think is appropriate for myself and also the business and our goals. Was there something that you're currently working on now, whether it's things like BitKey or what you're doing in mining that you originally ignored or didn't necessarily respond to the signal coming in, but just kept on beating on your door? Like, hey, you need to focus on this. This is really where your attention should be. What was something that took you a little bit longer to catch on to needing to pay more attention to? I mean, I think Bitcoin itself. We started when the Bitcoin white paper came out of the square. So 2009, 2009. And it took us until 2014 to like really at a company level, play with it. And then 2017, 18 to actually build a product around it. So I feel we were slow, very slow, retrospectively. So that'd probably be the biggest one. When you're thinking about moving forward from today, how do you prioritize what gets your personal attention? Because I know you've got at this point hundreds, if not thousands of people working at Block. And you are very active in the Nostra community as well. How do things win your attention and get priority at this point? Again, it goes back to that, like the truly important things are they come back. And even if I ignore them, they're going to reemerge in some way. It may not be exactly in the same structure, but they'll come back. So I look for signals where these things keep popping up in different ways. Why am I not paying attention to this? But then it's like intuition. It's like looking at the data. It's like recognizing what the gaps are and what the issues are. At this point, having worked on some of the larger companies in the world and most public-facing companies in the world, what would you put as your proudest achievement to date? Well, building something that hopefully lasts. We're not there yet, but building something that lasts beyond me and beyond us as a company. But I think we all want to create something of a value that lives beyond us, whether that be a family, kids, ideas, companies, works of art. It just feels much more impactful. But I'm really proud when I see people using what we built. I think it's incredible. Knowing that nobody's ever going to be in full agreement and that there will always be people on both sides of the aisle with both free and open speech or censorship or free and open payments or some kind of constraint on that, how do you navigate knowing that you're never going to be right to some people? I guess I don't care. We all have our own sense of what's important and what we're trying to do in the world. I don't know. I believe in what I'm doing and I take input and feedback. But the most important thing, again, goes back to does someone value it and are more people valuing it based on that? And that's the only way we can achieve growth. So if the thing is growing, then obviously people value it and they want it. What's your signal to know if people value or want something? Is it just what I will pay for it? Using it. Yeah, using it. Using it. Obviously, there's levels to that, right? There's using it for free. There's using it by paying for it. There's using it by inviting their friends, their colleagues, co-workers, businesses that they know onto the platform. There's various levels of commitment to usage. And as you go up those levels, you get more and more confidence that they really value it. But time, money, and network are good ways to think about how people actually value something or not. What inspires you to keep working on what you work on? Again, people like using it. Me being able to use it. I think what we're building is super cool. It feels great. It feels a little bit electric in many ways. And we have those moments again and again. When I first used BitKey after we built the prototype, it just felt super electric. Cool. Like super, super cool. And I had that same feeling with Square. I had that same feeling when we accepted our first credit card. Same feeling with CashApp when we could push money to a debit card Same feeling with Twitter when my tweet buzzed someone else's phone. These are moments of electricity. And I love them. And just looking for more of this. When it comes to things like the BitKey or even the ASIC that you're developing, are you on the factory floor, so to speak, or with the design team in those meetings actually building the thing? Or do you, just by nature of having so many resources to direct, have to keep more of a 30,000-foot view? In and out. Wherever I'm helpful, I go in. And that can sometimes be in the details or sometimes over the system and the architecture of how everything else fits together. I've been spending a lot of my time this past year just reorganizing our company and making sure that we're set up for another phase. As that has all been completed, now we have a number of product things that I want to ensure that we get right. And we're trying to bring our ecosystem together. How do we combine the merchant side of our company with the individual side in CashApp? How do we really accelerate Bitcoin into more of a payments model and system? And then how do we ensure that this company is not just these independent business units, but an ecosystem that actually positively reinforces one another? What parts of building this give you the most joy at building them? Is it the strategy and the integration? Is it the product level design? Working with people? It's feeling it. After we build something, feeling it and then feeling, oh, this is wrong or this is right. And then quickly changing it and then feeling it again. It's the process. It's the iteration that I think is most interesting. Seeing momentum and seeing movement on a product is pretty cool. And seeing the mistakes I think is really important too. Have you had that moment yet in the mining space where you really feel like it's chugging along? Yeah. Thomas sent me a video of some of the mining rigs in the factory. And it had the sound of the whirring. So that's one of those electricity moments. It went from silence to turning it on. And it's like jet engines. And you know what those jet engines are doing. And you know that we built that and it's super cool. And we built it in a way that it's going to be open source. And anyone can build on top of it. So I think that moment is meaningful because that sound will always stay in my head now because of what that is, I believe, going to kick off. Isn't it funny that you can have a miner running in your garage and it's the most annoying and awful sound that you could possibly imagine and just absolutely rings in your ears versus when it's something that you've just built and brought into the world. The same sound can bring you immeasurable joy. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't want to listen to it all the time. But having a few seconds of it was awesome. I love that. What are you most excited about for the next year? We've got so many wild changes happening that are not necessarily in the control of many of us actually building in this space, but just seem to be proliferating and emerging as a result of years of people finally starting to get this. What are you most excited for over the next 12 months or so? I thrive in change. I thrive in some chaos. And this is why I want to learn how to learn better because I think we all need to learn much, much faster now. And I think some of this is being pushed by AI. But if we're unwilling to have those learnings, I think individuals and companies like mine will be left behind. So I'm up for the challenge. And I think this is the year of Nostr. I think it's a year of open protocols. I think it's a year of... Obviously, it's going to be a year of Bitcoin in the value sense, but I want it to be valuable to people in terms of the use case. And I think we'll see some projects and use cases really flourish this year. And that's exciting. I think the more we can move the world to open protocols that are owned by a company or by a government, the greater the benefit to humanity. And all the perceived problems that we have today, I think, dissipate. Not overnight, but slowly, slowly burn out. And then the people can truly, truly own what I think they're meant to own. If you were to push a software update to humanity, you could just upgrade the consciousness of people around the world. What would be in that update to build a better world? Yeah, I think it's the learning thing. I think it's our capacity to learn. I'm like, how much we can learn at once. The angle I'm taking on how to learn better is language, because I think our entire experience is really constructed and constrained around language. And if you understand that deeply, I think reality shifts and you can see the actual truth. But truth to me is not something that we can articulate with the languages that we have. It's something that is deeper than that and natural. The important thing about my meditation practice is being better at observing that and training my mind to observe without language, because I think language holds us back. And I've learned this from programming, just learning a programming language and what it gives you and how it constrains you. And being able to go deeper, like I learned assembly, and I was direct to the metal when I first started learning how to program and how much freedom you have there to make a ton of mistakes or do something really, really custom and cool. And as you start abstracting that away into a language like C or Rust or Python, there's all these things happening under the hood that you don't necessarily have direct control over. And it limits those freedoms, but it gives you safety to not do something stupid. And if you just think about that idea and that concept, that applies to how we use English and how we communicate. And I feel like we're super constrained by our language. So I would probably update along that sense. What is a better way to really exchange value and communicate with each other? Because I think the English language is cool, but it's pretty limiting. If someone wanted to join you on your journey of learning how to learn better, what kind of practical tools or pathways would you give them to trod down that path? Meditation seems like an obvious one, but what else might you recommend for somebody looking to enhance that skill? I think meditation is number one, but when people think of meditation, they think more woo-woo, hippie, yoga type thing. You can have a very, very physical and mentally anguishing practice by just focusing your mind on one point of attention for an hour. Most people cannot do that. And for those who brush it off as not important, try it. Just try it. And I like going to an extreme. So I'm not going to do it for an hour. I'm going to do a 10-day retreat. Because you can't learn something just in an hour or a day. You have to really immerse yourself in and experience and feel the pain. And those 10 days are physically painful and they're mentally painful. And a lot of people drop out after day two or day six. But the focus you get from that and the discipline you get from it is immense. And that's number one. Go to Google, go to ChatGPT, go wherever. And just type in how to learn, learning about learning. And you'll see all these resources. And I'm a big believer in trusting my intuition. And while Google may rank something for me or ChatGPT might put something up, again, the important things keep coming up, even if I try to ignore them. There might be some connection point that I've missed. And I just follow my subconscious in terms of finding the best resources. And I find so many resources. But I think this has to be self-directed. I don't think you should take advice from anyone. If you really want to improve how to learn, you got to just start at zero and go pick something that you want to learn. And then figure out how to learn that better than everything you've learned in the past. I love that. Beautiful answer. And as we get to the end, we're living in a time of crazy change, many of which are coming over the next 12 months and are just starting to kind of take shape. But Jack, it's such a gift to get to hear your perspective for a little bit and get to connect with you and get your perspective on things right as they're about to happen. But if you're open to it, I would love to check in with you maybe a year from now and get an update and see how things have progressed if you're open to it. Yeah, we'll do it. I just want to give people a way to find you if they don't know how to find you. And it's probably not going to be practical to recite your Noster in pub, but maybe an easier way to get to you. You can go primal.net slash Jack, which is my in pub URL for that. Awesome. Thank you so much for your time, Jack. This is super fun for me and absolutely a gift. And thank you, Christine, for reaching out to Jack. And thank you, Jack, for responding to that email. Thank you so much. Thank you.