1 VEGAN vs 20 MEAT EATERS JUBILEE DEBATE REACTION Vegan Talks

One vegan versus 20 meat eaters debate. Humans will do the most evil things and turn around and act like they are God's gift on earth. What the hell is a right to exist? We are doing you a favor by allowing you to exist so that we could kill you. He literally just said, what are you gonna do about the calories? I don't know, eat them? Do I look like I miss a meal? How many cows is worth one human life like me? Can we have an intellectual discussion please? Hi guys, it's Rose and welcome back to Cheap Lazy Vegan and another vegan talks video. If you don't know, vegan talks videos are basically videos where I talk about veganism and different topics relating to veganism. And in today's case, I'm going to be responding, I'm going to be reacting to a vegan debate, okay? Because this morning I woke up and I thought it was just a regular Sunday, but it turns out that we have been blessed by the Jubilee gods, okay? The Jubilee gods have released yet another vegan debate video. And if you don't know, you guys, I am a whore for a Jubilee vegan debate video, okay? And so I'm going to be reacting to another one. So this one is called, can one vegan survive 20 meat eaters? So basically the format of this sort of video is that you have one person in the middle of 20 people that disagree with them. So we have one vegan and 20 people that are not vegan and they sort of like debate, but they debate like one-on-one, okay? So like one person jumps up and they talk until they get voted out by their peers and then someone else comes in and they talk, all of that stuff, okay? So for the vegan here, we have Dr. Jack Symes. I don't know if I'm saying that correctly. By the way, who is this, who is this man? He did a very good job. And also who, Dr. Jack, who is this man? Would you like to tell me more? Asking for a friend. Do we know, do we know him? Do we know him? Anyways, I'm intrigued. He did a very good job in my opinion, thank God, because sometimes the vegans, you know, they don't do the best job, okay? So Dr. Jack does a very good job in my opinion, but I still want to respond to some of these people, okay? I want to react, because the stupidity needs to be discussed, okay? The stupidity of the meat eaters, by the way, mm-hmm. Okay, so before we jump in to my reaction, I just want to let you know about the tours that I'm hosting this year that are coming up, okay? So I'm going to Korea, but that is sold out, you guys. Korea is sold out for the second time, but I'm also going to Japan, which is going to be in May right after Korea. So if you want to come to Japan, that is still available to book, but only until April 24th. That is the last day you can book. So if you want to come along to Japan, we're going to go to Tokyo, Kyoto, and Osaka. It's going to be a vegan group tour, meaning all of the food included is going to be fully vegan, and it's going to be an amazing and fun experience. You're going to be traveling with me and other amazing like-minded vegans and other people that are not going to be judging you for your veganism, that are not going to be anything at all like the people that you will see in this video, okay? And then in August, I'm hosting a vegan camping and hiking trip in the Canadian Rockies. And if you don't know, I'm Canadian, and I literally live right next to the Canadian Rockies. So you're going to be visiting basically my backyard, and it's going to be absolutely epic. There are only three spots left for that Canadian Rockies tour, so check that out as well. And new trips alert, okay, new trips alert. I'm going to Greece and Portugal in September. These are two separate trips, okay? But they are happening back-to-back, so if you want to come to both, you can definitely come to both, and you should come to both because it's going to be so fun. So we're going to Greece and Portugal. All the details will be below, so check those out. And that is it. Those are going to be my trips. So if you want to come along and travel with me and other awesome people, then you should definitely book a trip. So hopefully I'll see you somewhere in the world. Now let's get started with this video. All right, so let's now jump in to the reaction to Jubilee One Vegan versus 20 Meat Eaters Debate featuring Dr. Jack Symes. Okay, let's go. Sure am, I'm looking forward to hearing what reasons they've brought for their unethical lifestyles. Are y'all ready? I liked a little dig, uh-huh. My first surrounded claim is extreme suffering for trivial pleasure is morally indefensible. Extreme suffering for trivial pleasure is morally indefensible. Tell me how you are going to argue against that. To be the first debater, get to the chair in three, two, one. Dr. Jack. Nice to meet you. I'm Dr. Pete, nice to meet you. So I am very excited about this topic. I think it's super interesting that it touches on so much and all sorts of food. So I'm in an emergency medicine position. Do you want to, on the claim on Mayfestival, do you disagree with that? I do. He disagrees with the claim that extreme suffering for trivial pleasure is morally indefensible. So he thinks that extreme suffering for trivial pleasure is morally defensible. What are we doing here? I do. Extreme suffering for trivial pleasure is morally indefensible. Can I give you the reason and you can disagree? Yeah, absolutely. So I think this principle comes from any of the major world philosophies. So you could be religious or not religious. The easiest way to understand it is just being utilitarian. A good action is one where you create lots of happiness and pleasure and very little pain and suffering. And unfortunately, when it comes to factory farming, it's the other way around in our treatment of non-human animals in general. Quick example, and I'll let you jump in. Broiler chicken exists for six weeks. As soon as it's born, it has its beak clipped off with a guillotine. It's put in a cage so small it can't move. It's pumped for the food for six weeks straight. So fast that its organs fail, its legs break under its own weight. It goes blind because of the toxins in its own feces. Then it has its throat slit alongside 10,000 or so of its brother's sisters. I think that's an extreme amount of pain and suffering for what is trivial pleasure. I did speed up this original video. Okay. Which has the taste on your lips. Would you agree? Well, I'll say that all of civilization is about chasing triviality. And at the same time- What is that? Why? We're not talking about what we're doing in civilization. We're talking about what is moral. Okay? What is moral? I would definitely also say that suffering is inevitable and it's essential. It's inevitable, but you can minimize it. Suffering is inevitable, yes. But there's a difference between inevitable suffering that happens in nature and in your life versus inflicting suffering upon someone in order to chase your own pleasures and your own taste buds and whatnot. And what I mean to say is this about suffering is that when you take care of people with strokes, heart attacks, domestic abuse, bear attacks, they're also violent predators that eat all sorts of things in addition to us. You start to understand that there's two types of suffering. And I think that's the most important part. Two types of suffering. There's senseless suffering and there's meaningful suffering. And I think what you have to understand is that when you can create meaning behind suffering, you can transform it. There's a necessary suffering. Is he implying that the suffering that animals have to endure in factory farming and in animal agriculture is meaningful suffering? Meaningful for whom? Meaningful for the pleasure of us, for the pleasure of others, for the pleasure of those that don't even care about their existence? And I just always say, this is a great thought exercise, okay? Would you be willing to change places, trade places with an animal in a slaughterhouse? Would you be willing to change places with an animal in a factory farm? Would you be willing to send your pets to a factory farm, to a slaughterhouse? The answer is most likely no. So why are you justifying it? Because it's happening to somebody else. I take veganism to be the practical ethical rule to avoid products and practices that cause unnecessary suffering. So would you agree that if you can do something without the suffering, you ought to do it without the suffering? Yes or no? Are you against- If you answer that, I'm happy to respond. If you think you can do something without suffering, ought you to do that? I don't think avoiding suffering is the highest good. What is the highest good? There's a difference between you enduring suffering maybe for your own growth and development and discipline. Maybe that's what he's talking about. I have no idea what this man is talking about, to be honest with you. There's a difference between that and you senselessly inflicting suffering on somebody else that doesn't want to suffer for you. Okay? And again, turn it around. Would you want to suffer this much so that someone could eat your body? Would you want to suffer this much? Would you want your loved ones to suffer this much so that other species can eat your body? As soon as you turn it around, it's a very different story. Mm-hmm. My name is Brian. Nice to meet you, Brian. You have a PhD in philosophy? I do, yeah. That was my first major. Oh, cool. Nice. He's a philosophy king. We love a philosophy king. So I will not defend factory farming. Every time, every time in these videos, they all say, I don't defend factory farming. I'm against factory farming. Yet, they do not acknowledge that 99% of animal products purchased and consumed in the United States, and probably we can extrapolate that number to many other countries in the world, they are all produced in factory farms. Why? Because in order to feed this gigantic population of billions of people, as many animal products as we consume today, we need factory farms. Okay, that is the truth that you do not want to admit. These meat eaters do not want to admit that factory farms are a necessary thing if you want to have it so that there aren't that many vegans, for example. Because if we got rid of all factory farms, which apparently all these people are against, apparently none of these people buy meat from the grocery store, and none of these people go to restaurants and just eat steak without asking if it's locally sourced or grass-fed or whatever. Apparently all of them only purchase goods from non-factory farmed places. Really? I don't think so. Statistically, no, you are not doing that. All of you are purchasing goods from factory farms. I can almost guarantee it. Doesn't mean every single thing that you eat is from a factory farm, but I can guarantee that they do not avoid factory farmed meat. If you're gonna be so against veganism, but you're also saying you're against factory farming, I think that is very ironic, okay? Because vegans are actively not participating in factory farming. Of course, they're also not participating in other forms of animal agriculture, but they are the very few people that are actually actively not consuming factory farmed meat. Because again, chances are, even if you say you're against factory farming, chances are you still consume factory farmed meat. The only people that aren't doing that guaranteed are the vegans. There's another way of producing meat and it is regenerative agriculture. Let's try that. Why don't we get rid of all factory farms then? Why don't we get rid of all factory farms and let's try this regenerative farming and see what will happen. See how many people are forced to eat plant-based. And regenerative agriculture reduces all of the harm. Regenerative agriculture reduces all of the harm. So killing is not harm, right? Translation, killing an animal that does not want to die is not harm. So if I killed you, that's not harm. Oh no, it's different because we're human. If I killed your dog, that's not harm. Oh no, it's different because it's a dog. But if I kill a cow, that is not harm. That's the translation. It is not harmful to kill someone that does not want to die. This is the kind of mental gymnastics that has to happen when you are trying to morally justify eating meat, okay? You end up not making sense. And if you were truly honest with yourself, if you are someone that eats meat and you're truly honest with yourself, you know for a fact that that's ridiculous, okay? I don't understand the mental illness that people have where they just cannot admit that vegans are correct. I'm sorry. Hands down, a very important part of my vegan journey was I took a philosophy class in university. I took two actually. And the first one I took genuinely changed my life. And honestly, I do believe that this is the reason why I'm vegan today, although I didn't go vegan at that time. But the things I learned in that class taught me so much about the arguments for and against animal liberation, right? So we read, basically the concept of the class, I'm sure if you are a big follower of mine, you've heard this story before. But the concept of the class is that you read papers from two opposing viewpoints. So it's kind of like this, but it's actually in an academic setting. So you read papers from two opposing viewpoints on a certain very controversial ethical topic. So we read papers from people that argued for animal liberation or animal rights, and then people that were kind of counter-arguing against that. And I will never forget, my professor literally said, and I don't think he was vegan, he literally said, it is impossible to argue against the animal rights side, because if you try to argue against it, you will see a contradiction within your argument, okay? It was quite literally impossible to argue against the vegan side, even though they didn't call themselves vegan, but okay, like the animal liberation side, because morally speaking, it is the correct side. I'm sorry, it's just the case. Do they have the right to exist? Well, because here's the deal, if you're saying that we should not harvest them, then those animals are never going to exist. So I guarantee if they had consciousness and you put them down and you said, here are the scenarios, you can either exist and you can have one bad day and you can serve a purpose and you can have a beautiful life, you can make a positive contribution to the environment. This is so dumb. So essentially he is defending the right for animals to be bred into existence, simply to be killed for our consumption, the right for an animal to exist, to be killed for our consumption. And what kills me, no pun intended, is somehow he is twisting this to try to make it seem as though this is a benevolent practice, like we are doing you a favor by allowing you to exist so that we could kill you, so that we could use your body, you know? And he keeps asking, do they have a right to exist? What the hell is a right to exist? If you don't exist, you don't exist. How does something that does not exist have a right to exist? What? So if I'm not born, do I have a right to exist? What does that even mean, a right to exist? There is no such thing as a right to exist. If you are not born, if you don't exist, you don't exist. You don't have rights because you don't exist. You are not a thing. You don't exist. There is no right to exist. What about the right to live once you exist, okay? What about once a living sentient being exists, they deserve a right to be free and to live their own lives and to not be killed. How about that right? Not the right of some arbitrary non-existent thing to exist. And also if someone has a right to exist, if animals have a right to exist, whatever that means, then that right shouldn't be predicated on the fact that you want to eat their body. Like you shouldn't have a condition that says, okay, well, I will breed you into existence because you have a right to exist, but only if I can kill you for meat. How is that a right to exist? If someone has a right to exist, then you should make them exist even if you can't use their bodies for meat. If they have a right to exist, then we should be bringing them into existence regardless of what we can or cannot do with their bodies because they have a right to exist, right? This is what's so fascinating to me. Humans will do the most evil things and turn around and act like they are God's gift on earth. Okay, humans will literally kill an animal. Well, actually, no. Humans will breed animals into existence, sentient living beings into existence, feed them for a few years, and then slit their throat and act like that they are doing them a favor. Like- You said here are the scenarios. You can either exist and you can have one bad day and you can serve a purpose and you can have a beautiful life. You can either exist and have one bad day. The bad day, what is the bad day? The day that you are killed? Is that what you're talking about? Is that the one bad day? The day that your life is taken from you without your consent, when you don't want to die, the day that your life ends, the day that a knife goes into your throat, is that the bad day that we're talking about? Is that the bad day? The bad day in which your life is ended prematurely because somebody wants to eat your body, that's the bad day? Again, I wonder if you would want to be in that situation. What about you? Would you volunteer to do this? Would you volunteer your children for this? Can we stop this pretending to be benevolent, pretending to be doing this for the benefit of the animal, when all you want to do is eat a steak, okay? Let's at least be honest. You just want to eat a steak and you want to feel good about doing it. This is not for the betterment of society. This is not for the environment. This is not for the betterment of animals. This is not a benevolent act. So drop the act, okay? You just want to eat steak and you don't want to change your mind. I'm great. I think plants, killing plants is murder though. Oh dude, thank you guys. My reaction is, I really don't do this. What are you doing? Come on, you're joking. You're ripping it from the ground. You're ripping it from its mother. It's murder. And I enjoy the trivial pleasure of doing it. The guy in the back just agreeing and acting like she is speaking gospel is sending me. He's like, yes, speak the truth. The lions, with the hyenas, what the tigers have done for history. So you think plants can feel pain? Yes, they can. So you want to reduce that pain? You think plant lives matter, but you want to eat steak and you want to eat animals. I've said this before, but I hate this argument because I think it's the dumbest, least intellectual argument you could possibly make. Although that is debatable because there are so many dumb arguments. Here's what's bothering me about this stupid argument that is always made in bad faith. We know animals can feel pain. This is a fact. We all know this. They can feel pain. They can suffer. They have sentience. They know what's going on. They miss their mom when they're taken away. The moms are crying for their babies. Like we know this happens. So instead of focusing on the thing that we know for sure happens, which is animals feeling pain and animals suffering under us, under our rule, under our dictatorship, we know for a fact that they are suffering. Yet you want to ignore that and talk about the potential of plants feeling pain. Just so what? You could say gotcha vegans, you also inflict pain. Just so you could do that. Is that why? And I don't know if he brings this up later, but if you actually believe that plants feel pain, which I do not believe that these people actually do believe that, but if you did believe that, then you would definitely advocate for veganism unless you believe that everybody should just die of starvation. You would definitely advocate for veganism because guess what? Animals need to eat plants to grow, to become our food. And animal agriculture kills way more plants than if we were to just eat the plant straight from the source. So not only are you inflicting very obvious and very real harm and pain upon the animals that are suffering, you're also making all the plants suffer. So it's like a billion times more suffering than if we were to just eat the plants. But I don't think they actually believe that plants feel pain, so. You know why? Because I have an azalea, and when I don't give it enough light, that thing dies, so it feels it. So plants have feelings too. Okay. First of all, living things are not the same thing as sentient things. Let's clear that. So plants have feelings too. So what? If they did, then you should be vegan. Do you think we should reduce the amount of pain that plants are experiencing? Yes, we should. Plants matter. Hashtag plants matter. Who? Did they pick these people off the street? In a way, I'm kind of glad that these people are this dumb. Because it makes vegans look, you know, way better. If you were intellectually honest and you're not vegan and you're watching this, you would be probably siding with the vegans. Let's be so for real. Okay, we're gonna skip this because I can't stand this lady. I think when it comes to the Mediterranean diet versus the vegan diet, the vegan diet might be better in some ways, but only just by a little bit. Now we're talking about health, right? Which I don't usually like to argue veganism from a health perspective because I don't think the arguments are that strong, to be honest with you, from a health perspective. Now, do I believe that vegans can be very healthy on a plant-based diet? Absolutely. Do I think overall, based on the science and the data, vegans tend to be healthier? Yes, absolutely. Do I think you can be healthy still, very healthy and eat some animal products? Yes. So I think veganism from an ethical perspective is a lot more convincing to me. And obviously veganism is more than just your diet. It's about avoiding going to the zoo, for example, avoiding using animals for entertainment or clothing. So veganism is way more than just a diet. And so I don't usually like to talk about veganism from a health perspective, but this man literally just said, when it comes to the Mediterranean diet versus the vegan diet, the vegan diet might be better in some ways, but only just a little bit. Okay, then why shouldn't we all be vegan then? So not only is it better for you than apparently the Mediterranean diet, which is very often cited to be one of the healthiest diets in the world. So he thinks that the vegan diet might be better, but only just a little bit. Okay, so then why shouldn't we go vegan? Because that means not only are we healthy, we're also inflicting less suffering on animals and it's better for the environment. So what are we debating? What's the debate? What is the debate? You just want to eat meat. We think that dog fighting is bad, don't we? Yes, we do. So what happens when we kill the dog, we eat its flesh and then we fight. Is that wrong as well? What do you mean we? I don't speak French. I've never done that. So I've never seen anybody that does that. A pig, a cow, a chicken? A pig, a cow, a chicken. But you're saying that in such a Western term. What's the difference? The difference is one, we raise as a companion and the other one, we raise as food. And that makes the moral difference, why? It makes a moral difference because I need to feed my kids. You can't feed your kids a plant-based diet? I love the question that he asked, Dr. Jack. I love that he asked and that makes a moral difference, why? Because we arbitrarily raise animals for food and we arbitrarily assign animals as companions. This is all very cultural and literally, we just make it up, okay? We make it up. There is no moral difference between these animals, dogs and cows, for example. They both feel pain. They both have enough intelligence to know what's going on. They're sentient beings. They can suffer. They have connections to each other. They have connections to other animals. They have connections to humans. There's really no moral difference between these two animals, yet we assign arbitrarily the roles that they are to play in our lives and in the world because we think we are human. We can play God. We can do whatever we want. Just because we raise an animal to be our food doesn't mean we should, okay? That's the entire point. Yes, we do raise them to be our food. That doesn't mean the system should continue. We've done a lot of things in the past. A lot of systems have been in place in the past that we now recognize as immoral and unethical, okay? We no longer do the, well, it's debatable, but we at least, the majority opinion is that we don't do certain things because it's morally wrong. However, at some point, that system was in place until people went in and changed it because we recognize that just because we have a system in place doesn't make it moral and doesn't make it justified. Just because an animal was raised for food doesn't mean we should be doing that. That's the entire point. There is a great movie that I always reference. I'm sure you may have heard me talk about it. It's called Never Let Me Go. If you've never watched this movie, I highly recommend watching it. It's a really good kind of thought-provoking movie. And essentially what happens is, I won't give it away, but I'll give you the premise. Basically, it's set in this school, okay? So it's a school full of children, and it looks like just a very normal kind of private school. It looks like regular children, regular normal kids, but we very soon find out that these kids are actually clones of other humans. So they have been cloned, and they have been born as clones of other humans. So they are humans, basically, genetically. Everything about them is human, except for they are just made in a lab, I guess. But they can feel pain. They can suffer. They can love. They can experience everything a human being can experience. And they are human by every definition of the word, except for that they were clones. Now, why were they cloned? We find out that they were cloned in order to become involuntary organ donors. From a young age, as soon as they're fully developed, but basically barely adults, but their organs are fully developed, they start having surgeries to remove their organs so that those healthy young organs can be donated to sick people. And this is all done without them deciding for themselves that that's what they wanna do. This is just the role that they were assigned by other people. They go through these surgeries and they get their organs removed one by one until they basically die because they can't survive without their vital organs. Now, again, these human beings are human beings in every definition of the word. They can have pleasurable experiences. They can have painful experiences. They can fall in love, all of these things, but they were bred into existence. They were cloned into existence so that humans could use their bodies as organ donors. Does that make it okay? Does it make it okay for humans to be killing these other humans so that we could use their bodies when they did not decide that for themselves? Does it make it okay? I don't believe so. I think it's very unethical. The practice itself is unethical. It doesn't matter if they were bred for this purpose because the purpose itself is wrong and the breeding itself was wrong, but they exist already. So we probably shouldn't be doing this to them. That's how I see the factory farms. Yes, we bred them into existence to use them for this immoral purpose. We're saying we need to stop doing the immoral thing of breeding animals into existence just so they can live a lifetime of suffering and then have their throats slit open and killed. Okay? We agree that harming animals for sport is bad and therefore if we think that, it would translate to us harming animals for our own sporting excellence, wouldn't it? No, it would not. Why? It would not because of the feeling. You're coming in from a very emotional point of view. I'm not emotional at all. You're very emotional. You keep a very stoic face, but you're very emotional on the inside. I love how he's saying that the vegan guy is being very emotional when this guy is practically jumping out of his chair. He's freaking out. There's two groups of people though that I want to challenge your claim on. The first is hunters. So I have a good friend. I grew up in Colorado. I have a good friend. He's a hunter. Probably one of the most ethical people I know. First of all, that guy, does he not look like Justin Trudeau? He like reminds me of Justin Trudeau, like a young version. Maybe it's just the way he's dressed. It's giving Trudeau. Anyway, that guy's actually the moderator. I don't know why he decided to jump in. Maybe he was like, oh my God, everyone else is stupid, but he doesn't make very good arguments himself. This man literally just said he knows a hunter that is one of the most ethical people I know. I wonder how many people will say that about vegans, okay? Vegans are people that intentionally avoid animal products, that intentionally avoid animal products. They deal with all the scrutiny, the hatred, the vitriol, all the anti-vegan comments. Vegans are living intentionally to try to avoid doing harm as much as is possible. I wonder how many people would say that vegans are some of the ethical, most ethical people they know. But somehow this hunter, this hunter that he knows, someone that purposefully goes out with a gun and kills animals for sport, let's be honest, for sport first and foremost, and maybe food second, when they have other options for food, they have other options for food, they intentionally go out with a gun and kill animals when they don't want to die. This is the most ethical person you know? I'm concerned for your peers. I'm concerned for who you associate with if that is the most ethical person you know, okay? That is concerning to me. I could make the argument that people like him actually do quite a bit to minimize animal suffering because he doesn't participate in industrial farming. He kills his own meat. And he has made the argument to me that, you know, taking an animal's life in the wild, you're sparing that animal from the worst death, a worst death that it will experience because when an animal dies in the wild, it's usually pretty ugly. It suffers a lot more. This is called working backwards from your conclusion. Taking an animal's life in the wild, you are sparing that animal from the worst death it will experience. Do not pretend that you go hunting because you want to spare an animal from the worst death it will experience. You go hunting for sport. Let's not sugarcoat it. Let's not try to pretend otherwise. In the United States of America, if you are going hunting, you are doing it for sport, first and foremost, foremost, first and foremost. If you did not find it fun to some degree, if you did not find it somewhat rewarding to some degree, if you didn't derive any pleasure from the hunting to some degree, you're doing it out of tradition. You're doing it out of something that you learned to do with your parents because it's a bonding moment with your kids. You are doing it for fun. Do not try to gaslight me, okay? You're doing it for fun. I don't care what kind of lie you try to tell yourself. You're working backwards from the conclusion that hunting is good. You're working backwards from the conclusion that hunting is moral and good, and therefore, you're trying to find reasons as to why it's moral and good, which is why you're saying this ridiculous stuff like taking animals' life in the wild. You're sparing this animal. You're really doing them a favor by killing them. You're really doing the animal a favor by killing them. Now, would you be doing that if you weren't enjoying the hunting process? No, you just like hunting and you wanna feel good about hunting, so now you're trying to come up with reasons as to why you are a good person. So really, you're sparing this animal from a really awful death by killing this animal yourself. I just, I can't. I can't, I can't. And also, how do you know that? Okay, again, I know that you don't know that. You're just trying to make excuses as to why hunting is good and moral and all that stuff, but how do you know that that is what's going to happen? Otherwise, if you don't kill this animal, some other animal is going to come and kill this animal and it'll be more painful, whatever, okay? But don't you also believe in, I don't know, circle of life and letting natural predators do their thing? What about the predator? What about the animal that needs to eat this other animal? You're taking away their food, aren't you? I just don't get how people can not see the ridiculousness. We're talking about a benevolent killer here, okay? A benevolent killer. I killed this animal, but I did it out of the goodness of my own heart. You are not benevolent for killing an animal that does not want to die. My next surrounded claim is that factory farming is one of the worst moral atrocities in history. All right, if you would like to debate this claim, get to the chair in three, two, one. Hey, man, how's it going? All right, so- What's your name, sir? Gerard. Nice to meet you, Gerard. Okay, so you said one of, so I just want to get the ranking system down here. Okay, so we're going to have Holocaust up here. Is factory farming better or worse than the Holocaust? Well, I don't want to play top trumps with the worst things happening. I'm saying one of the worst things happening. Well, I'd like to know, though, because you clearly have some metrics- Do you want to hear the reason? Do you want to hear the reason and then you can respond? Well, I want to know the ranking, so we have our meat on the table. I'll just throw it out. I'll give you the argument, very quick, and you can come straight back. So there are around 80 billion cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys that are slaughtered every year for human consumption. When it comes to fish, it's in between three and 10 trillion. But it's not just the non-human animal suffering, which is bad. Obviously, factory farming has huge impacts on people. Earlier on, we were speaking about how 30 to 60 million children die of starvation each year, 82% living in countries where the majority of the produce is fed to non-human animals. It's also true, and I'll just give you one more example of diseases, too. According to the World Health Organization, 75% of all emerging diseases are zoonotic. Zoonotic diseases such as Ebola, swine flu, arguably COVID-19 on the fence. Okay, let me go through, let me go through, let me go through. So you've got tens of millions of deaths, hundreds of millions of deaths from human beings, and climate destruction, too. First, you started with the numbers of death. I just wanted to let him cook, because I, that was great. How many deaths of cows is equal to the death of one Jewish person in Auschwitz? Give me the number. What, like, did you hear that? How many deaths of cows is equal to one Jewish person in Auschwitz? This is so irrelevant to the discussion. Why are we trying to be like, how many cows is worth one human life? Like, me. Can we have an intellectual discussion, please? This also highlights, in my opinion, the human superiority complex. This need to always say, oh, a human life is worth, like, a million animal lives. Like, yeah. Uh, no it ain't. Okay? This is my controversial take. Human lives are just lives, just like any other goddamn living sentient being on this earth. To me, my life is everything, okay? My life, my family's lives, my friend's lives. Like, yes. Because it's me. Because it's me, my life is everything. Uh-huh. To a cow, their life is everything. To a pig, their life and their family's lives is everything. It's all relative. We're not here weighing out who deserves to die and who doesn't deserve to die based on the value of their lives. Because every single sentient person and animal values their own life most of the time. Okay? So, you cannot equate these things or try to come up with a number that is equivalent to, like, how many cows and how many humans. Like, how many cows is worth one human? It doesn't even make any sense. This is not an intellectual discussion. The problem is that we're always looking at things from the human superiority complex, where we believe that we are just God's gift on Earth, even though we cause all the pain, destruction, and suffering, basically, on this planet. Mm-hmm. We've ruined the lives of so many animals on this planet. We are the terrorists. We are the worst thing to happen to so many of these animals, yet we stand up on our high horse and we think that we are God's gift on Earth. Even though they literally say that, like, if humans perished, like, today, the Earth would, like, everything on Earth would just flourish, okay? Like, yet we're somehow so valuable? Again, to us, yes, we are valuable. To us, we are valuable. To a cow, they are valuable. You know? How many cows dying is as bad as someone getting gassed in Auschwitz? Well, can we extract the Jewish version of Auschwitz? Well, I'm just using the words that I can think of. Well, I don't mind explaining to the antisemitic. How about the Armenian genocide? Can we talk about that one? How many cows are worth a human being? I think a human being is significantly more valuable than a cow. How much? Why? Because a cow lives for 20 years and a human being will live for 70 or 80 years. So a cow is worth- See, this is the one part where I'm going to disagree with the vegan guy here, Dr. Jack. I just don't agree with this one, okay? Yes, we might live longer, but just because you live longer doesn't necessarily mean your life is more valuable. You know? Some really evil people have lived a very long time. Okay? Again, to me, my life is worth more than maybe someone else's life because it's to me, it's my life. So even if you were to say that I will live less than someone else, to me, my life is more valuable. To the other person, their life will be more valuable. Think about how many humans that are very evil that have done awful things have lived a very long life. That is not a good thing. You know, if you're an evil person, I don't want you to live till 80, you know? Like if you're not a good person, you're doing horrible things. Okay? And you have horrible intentions. I don't want you to live that long. And I don't believe your life is valuable. Okay? Compared to a cow that doesn't do any horrible things that just wants to live. And again, to that cow, that cow's life is valuable. We've engaged in how many wars? True. And we shouldn't keep doing that. We shouldn't. Why shouldn't we do that? I don't know if you should bring this one up right now. Answer, why shouldn't we do that? Why shouldn't we engage in war? Because it's killing our own people. But only humans count? Yes. Well, I don't think that's a bad thing because we are human. Newsflash, we're both human. So it's circular. Humans matter because they're humans and why do humans matter? Because they're humans? Yes. So it's a circular argument. Humans matter because they're humans and humans matter because they're humans. This is essentially speciesism where we discriminate against other species simply because they are another species. It's irrational. It's as irrational as racism. It's like saying, okay, I matter because I'm Asian and I only care about other Asians and I will protect only other Asians and no one else matters because they're not Asian. These are not arguments. These are not morally justifiable arguments. You are not arguing for anything. You are not actually giving any arguments because it doesn't make sense. This is called just pure discrimination and it's very similar to speciesism where we think that just because we're human, we shouldn't harm other humans. Why are humans more important? Because they're human. That's not an answer. Why are humans more important than other animals? Because they're human is not an answer. You're just stating a fact. A human is a human. Yes, I agree. A human is a human. Because they're human is not an answer to why humans matter more. You're gonna have to give more of an argument than that. But you can't because it's speciesism. We inherently believe that we are better than other species and therefore not just are we better, but that gives us somehow the right to treat other species in a way that we wouldn't even think about treating our own kind, even the worst of our own kind. I always say this, but the way that we treat animals is a million times worse than we treat the worst humans in our society, okay? The worst humans in our society that we hate, that we put below like everyone else in the human world, the worst people that have done the worst things to other humans that have caused the most amount of harm, the worst humans in our society would never be treated the way that we treat factory farmed animals. These animals that have done absolutely nothing to hurt us, these innocent animals that have done nothing wrong, we treat them a million times, a billion times worse than we treat the worst people in our society. This is how speciesist we are. And it is not for any morally justifiable reason. It is not for any intellectual reason. It is simply because we have a human bias, okay? It's simply because we are speciesist. Fossil fuels are used to grow corn. So what's the point? Just jump to the other two. Okay, okay. So the point is, you're saying that we wanna do better for the environment. Of course. Would you say that fossil fuels are good for the environment? I would say using fossil fuels should be avoided. However, the whole of the animal agricultural industry, according to the UN, one of the most conservative figures, is the animal agriculture industry, all of transport combined, every plane, train, and car, put that next to factory farming and the animal agriculture industry, animal agriculture is more. And when you account for deforestation, Okay, but wait a minute. And the emissions from the animals, just very quickly, I'm just gonna finish, and when you account for all the side effects of it too and all the waste, She did not just bring up fossil fuels. She did not just bring up the environment. Did these people do any research on veganism? Or did they just pluck a bunch of random people off the street? Because how are you going to bring up the environment when we are talking about veganism? How are you going to sit here and talk about corn, okay? And talk about fossil fuels and not realize that animal agriculture is one of the worst things for the environment, for climate change. Animal agriculture is one of the worst things ever. From my experience, and the research I've done, you need at least some animal product to survive. But what makes you think that? What makes you think that you need to eat meat to survive and thrive? Because I found out recently, I've been doing a lot more about health to get in better shape, and I found out the more protein I eat from meat, chicken, steak, it gets me more bulk, it helps me get the vitamins and nutrients and minerals I need. What are you gonna do about the calories? Because, you know, you get rid of the mineral, the meats, and you cut out that calorie, but you also cut out a lot of the calories that you need to survive. Because if we become too malnutritioned and neurodivergent, we will die. I almost feel bad for this guy. Did they just, again, did they just find these people off the street? What is this? I feel bad for him almost, because it's like, do you know anything? First of all, what are you doing trying to argue nutrition when you clearly don't know anything about nutrition? He literally just said, what are you gonna do about the calories? I don't know. Eat them? Do I look like I'm starving? I've been vegan for 12 years almost. Do I look like I miss a meal? Do I look like I'm starving? Do I look like I'm calorie deficient? In fact, I feel like I look healthier than this guy. I eat plenty of calories, my friends. Calories exist in vegan food. I know. Shocking. Who knew? Vegans consume calories too. My surrounding claim is that going completely vegan is, for the entire world at once, is impossible. I would not reject that claim. I think going- Yeah, I wouldn't reject it either. No one is saying, this is what I mean, like nobody has done research on this. None of these people have done research on this, and this is what happens when you are trying to work backwards from the conclusion that eating meat is good and fine and moral, and you're trying to find reasons to fill your conclusion that you've already come up with, rather than actually deciding with all the facts in front of you and making a decision, you just already decided that eating meat is good, and now you're coming up with reasons as to why it's good. No one is saying that everyone should go vegan at the same time, because that is impossible. No vegan. I've never heard a vegan saying, everyone should go vegan at this exact same time, right now, and even if you said that, that would never happen. Nobody expects that to happen. Nobody thinks that that is going to happen, okay? It's a gradual change. It will be a very gradual change, and so, yeah, I don't really understand the claim. Like, what's the point? Like, yeah, I agree. No one is gonna go vegan at the same time, and vegans all agree with that. Okay, this is the thing. When people go vegan, right, you have to understand that most vegans that are vegan did not start off vegan, right? We were brought up eating meat and animal products like everybody else, and we, with new information and with learning about animal agriculture and possibly studying philosophy, which I did, and learning about the different arguments for and against animal agriculture, and actually, honestly, looking at the arguments, we decided the vegan thing makes more sense morally, right? Do you think I wanted to be vegan? No, okay? I did not want to be vegan. I did not want to go vegan. It's not easy to be vegan in a society that is not vegan. It is not easy to go against the grain, but I was given information, and instead of completely rejecting the information and going into denial mode and trying to come up with reasons as to why what I was doing is correct, I actually listened, and I think I listened because I was in an academic setting, which is why I think everybody should take a philosophy course, and I actually read the arguments, and I really realized, oh, this makes a lot more sense, right, because the point is that most of these people, they didn't actually make a decision to eat meat, right? None of, I don't think any of these people just purposely decided, I'm going to eat meat, okay? They were brought up in a world where everybody eats meat, their family probably eats meat, and they were brought up in that world, so there was never an actual active decision-making process. You were passively just living your life, and you were just a product of your environment, so that's why their arguments are ridiculous and stupid because they didn't actually make an intellectual, logical decision themselves to start eating meat, whereas vegans, usually they had to make an intellectual, logical, and moral decision to stop eating meat. Does that make sense? Anyway, guys, that is it for my reaction to Jubilee's vegan versus 20 meat-eaters debate, even though hard to say debate when these are, this is the caliber of the meat-eating community, but that kind of makes me happy because I think, honestly, objectively, the vegan did extremely well. Again, Dr. Jack, who is this man? Tell me more, okay? Asking for a friend. I hope you guys enjoyed this video. Let me know what your thoughts are on this video. Leave some comments below. You guys know I love a good discussion in the comments, so yeah, let me know your thoughts below. If you enjoyed this video, give it a big thumbs up. Make sure you subscribe to my channel if you haven't already, and of course, check out the trips that are coming up in 2026. Once again, Japan is happening, and the bookings are closing very soon. We're also doing Canadian Rockies camping and hiking tour. That's happening in August, only three spots left, and then we've got Greece coming up and Portugal coming up in September and October. So guys, all of those details will be below if you wanna come on a vegan group trip with me sometime this year, somewhere in the world. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in my next video. Bye.