One Nightstand With Elizabeth Olsen

Is it that he puts in a tampon or pulls out a tampon? Yeah. Even like that. She's like, well, I've never done this before, let's do it. I know, let's do it. When she finally sleeps with someone else and it's Audra, the woman who's at the fair with David, and I was just like, that is so crazy. Well, Elizabeth Olsen, welcome to One Night Stand. I'm happy to be here. Have you always been a big reader? No. Oh, interesting. I learned how to read really young. I read what I was supposed to in school. I think I became very competitive with my grades when I was in junior high and high school. And so that was more about like required reading. And then I started, and then I felt like as an adult, I probably read one or two books a year or something until the last six years. And so it's been, it's still like a new love that I find really fulfilling. It felt more like something I should be doing until I guess when I was in my late 20s. Yeah. What was the competitive like high school and middle school vibe? Were you just like wanted to go to a good college or were you just sort of really enjoying it? Or was it like competitive with classmates vibe? It was a combination of competitive with classmates, but also as an actor, this is a through line that makes sense, but I am a people pleaser. And I really wanted my teachers to feel valued. And I felt like I could do that by caring about what we were doing in school. But then also at the same time, I still got the validation that I wanted as a people pleaser. So yeah, it's kind of convoluted, but I also really did love learning and I still do. I do want to go back to school at some point. I love being a student. Oh, fine. What would you go back and study? I'm not sure. Like part of me thinks it would be something that I'm already vaguely interested in, but then another part of me would want to discover something completely new. Like part of me thinks maybe I would go and study architecture because I don't know that much about it, but I'm curious about it. And then another part of me would like to study the classics or something because it was almost like in high school, you read like three things that are, instead of like diving deep into like one author, you kind of pick a period. And I loved writing essays and I still love writing essays, but that's turned into journalism, like journaling. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I read that you're a big journaler. That's fun. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Every day? Yeah. Wow. I mean, today was very short, but every day. That's amazing. I try, but I find that I only journal on days when I'm sad. Oh, gosh. So I did kind of just while on a flight. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Which is usually when you're sad. Yeah. I was like, I'll be in my feels, but now I open my journals and I'm like, this is literally a catalog of the worst days of the last two years. That's how mine started. It's just like terrible experiences. And then it becomes like quite mundane and even just as silly as trying to chart things I enjoyed that I cooked or that I ate or what I'm reading or a quote that I liked from something I was reading. Fun. Well, one of your first books is When We Cease to Understand the World, which is an incredible book. I was blown away by it. I hadn't read it before. You hadn't read it before? No. Oh, wow. Yeah, so I read it this weekend. Oh, gosh. It was incredible. That's a lot for you to do with this show is to read quickly. Yeah, exactly. Everyone's always like, how? Luckily I'd read all fours and Circe before, so I only had two this week. Okay. But like your glutton for punishment and people pleaser, the school part of me enjoys being like, I'm going to read this book. Right, right. But anyway, tell me what you love about this book. It was strangely what I was reading when I was doing, when I was filming Eternity. It was that and Wit and Wisdom. I was like in a heavy, maybe it's because we were filming a romantic comedy that I was packing something that was maybe slightly more dense or philosophical in some ways. I was really taken, I mean, it's this, what would you call it, historical fiction? Kind of, yeah. Metafiction? It's sort of, apparently the elements of fictionality grow as the book goes on. Like the start is purely fact and then it sort of gets more embellished. But there are these stories of some of the most important human inventions that have changed our world and the people that go mad creating them. And I think madness and human persistence are both themes that I adore. So I do love that it's fictionalized because I love getting to pretend like this is what really happened in private moments. And then I'm just kind of endlessly curious and amazed by where we are today as a society and civilization and how much has been invented and what the human brain has been able to come up with. And I think this book does that. And then when you are served kind of the titular anecdote, it gutted me when they finally use When We Cease to Understand the World towards the end of the book. I think it's at like a diner or at like a sort of restaurant. And I think it's the waiter or the barman that's like looking at the rotary phone and thinking about the fact that people are having a conversation and don't have to be in the same space. He says that's when we cease to understand the world. And like how far we've come from there. I know, I know. Of how we've ceased to understand the world. One of the lines I wrote down was from the night gardener section at the end where it goes, It was mathematics, not nuclear weapons, computers, biological warfare, or our climate Armageddon, which was changing our world to the point where in a couple of decades at most we would simply not be able to grasp what being a human really meant. And I was like that is the kind of like what does being a human mean sometimes? Because how far some of their equations get to and when they're talking about the different how you can only, when you're measuring something it only, like in order to measure it it has to be stationary and in motion. It's like all of these things that are like these foundational things that kind of upend your whole way of thinking about the world. It's disconcerting, but it's also it felt unifying reading in some way. It felt human reading it because it reminds us of our humanity and the things that have altered our reality from human invention. Did it inform your work on eternity do you think? Absolutely not. You're just like escapism. Yeah, it totally did not inform anything I was doing. Whereas there are other books like Possibility of an Island which feel related to this while we're talking about it did inform what I was doing when I was filming because I was filming Assessment which is a future sci-fi film that I did that came out earlier this year. So we had to imagine this future world. And so that actually felt way more relevant. Yeah. Did you find yourself Googling like what was fictional and what was fact? After, I didn't while I was doing it. But when after I did as well, I was kind of like wait and apparently because I was also I see all the dynamics and the relationships and the bit on that weird Island. Yeah, that was the thing where I was because he's going on these long walks by himself. Yeah. It's when he has consumption, right? Yeah. And you're just thinking like there's there's no way that this story was told this way through what even if it's just like orally. Yeah. And so yeah, I mean that's definitely there's no way that that is no accurate to history. But I did enjoy how's how I don't know. It felt kind of psychedelic in ways like the fog totally and even just the I read this years ago and I didn't review it actually. So they're almost just more like images in my head of like just heavy heavy fog and not being able to see a trail. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And there was just so much random bits so many like scraps of history that this guy the author references in such a casual way that like when that Island he talked about that it was where Britain blew up all of their like leftover munitions from World War 2 and I was like what I've never even heard of this and it's called the Big Bang and that was factual. Yeah. And so there was so many bits like that and I loved the first chapter about Goebbels and you know, I felt like I never I never knew about Prussian blue and cyanide until reading this and that kind of that and how cyanide has connect has been connected to so many different important deaths in our history. Yeah. It was fascinating. Yeah. Are you like curious about science? Are you like a science person? Yeah, I love science. I loved chemistry specifically in school. I could have taken it for a third year. Wow. I think it's because when I was a senior was AP chemistry and then the next stage would be quantum physics and I didn't get that far. Yeah. Yeah, I loved science and I loved mathematics. I don't really have any other parts of my life where I get to go back to that basic school education of love of like science and mathematics. I didn't have to really do that at NYU either. Yeah. So it was it kind of felt like a treat in that way. Did anyone recommend that book to you? Or did you? Yes, a friend of mine who also recommended Whitman Winston, Brian Watkins, who's a playwright who writes a lot about an element of like spirituality and like kind of the unknowns of this world. Yeah, it's interesting. And I think that the scientists in this book are kind of grappling with their role as like not just observers, but kind of makers, which I think is really interesting. Do you ever find yourself gravitating towards sort of spiritual explanations for things? Or are you not someone who like needs that? No, I rather have like factual explanations of things. And then I also, I just love, I love ancient storytelling as well. So I love going to the root of story, I think is what's important to me. I took a class at NYU that was about the history of the New Testament. And like, that's an example of kind of combining what feels like historical fact versus what shifted due to history over time. Like, I feel like I would need to take it again to be actually be able to speak to a lot that I learned. But I think it's more about the history of storytelling and the history of religions and the histories of spirituality is what's most interesting to me, not necessarily of like this moment. Yeah, no, I agree. I find it's kind of interesting seeing what sort of people grasp to a little bit. Yeah, it's funny, especially with filming eternity. Like, so many people have been asking, or at least doing press for it, if I believe in the afterlife. And I'm just like, nope. Did anything, did your thoughts of the afterlife change when you did this movie? No. Why? No, of course not. It's a movie. I mean, these men, the men, the scientists in this book, and they are largely men, and I saw one review that was like, why wasn't Marie Curie more prominent? Sure. But they really disappear into their jobs in a way that they like, they go quite, not methodically. They go mad. They do go mad. Yeah. Do you ever disappear into a job and might have to get really immersed, or are you always the type of person that when you get back to your hotel room, you're like, mm, done? I think I'd like to, genuinely. I think a reason why I loved reading that so much is because I'm not an obsessive person, but I do find obsessiveness to be attractive in theory. I think I really lean towards wanting to have control of an environment to feel balanced as a person. I have enjoyed when I am so exhausted by a job that it felt like I went through something. Sometimes days are heavier than others. Sometimes it creeps up on you and you don't realize it because your body physically goes through things, especially if you're doing some heavier emotional lifting in your job as an actor. Even if your mind obviously knows it's not real, your body still physically has to experience something, so there is something that is hard to bounce back from. But I would like to lose myself more, and I think that's something that I hope to feel like a safe space to get to do on jobs in the future because it's something that I admire, I think. No, me too. It's the kind of thing I was terrified of when I was younger and definitely always wanted to be in control and gripping tightly, and now maybe it's because I feel more secure in myself at 37 where I'm a little bit like, oh, I could let go now and not be terrified. That is how I'm feeling. Yeah, I don't think I'll disappear or I'll lose myself completely. I know that I have enough of a foundation to come back to, but the idea of being able to obsess over something for a certain period of time, obviously it ruins most of these people's lives and even the history of the world in some ways. But I do want a controlled version of that. I think that would be interesting to me. I also found it stressful in the book how much they were debating the ideas and disagreeing over them, just in the sense that you spend years in isolation working on a theory and then you present it and someone's like, rubbish. But you also knew that they were going to get there. Yeah. There's something about that that you just see these roadblocks that they hit, but you know that by the time you get to that point of the book, I'm thinking, is it the Japanese mathematician? Yeah, because he goes really mad and no one believes him. No. Yeah. But then he proves it. Well, he does, exactly. And at what cost? Well, exactly, sanity. Well, another book that gets at all of these different I guess the questions of where we're going and the possibility of an island by Michael Welbeck. Tell me about your love of that book. It's an odd one. Yeah, I love reading Welbeck. The first book of his I read was Elementary Particles and then it was this and then Submission recently. And I was looking for something when I was filming Assessment that I'm not really a sci-fi fantasy reader, but I wanted something. I've tried, I've dipped my toe. But I wanted something that felt like I could build this future world in a more tactile way that I understood as opposed to just the rules of our world that we were shooting. And strangely when I was reading it, because this would have been about three summers ago, it's two and a half years ago. I feel like AI since then has become so much more prevalent in our everyday life and the transhumanist movement that it's written about. And this is like 2005 it's written. Yeah, it's the early 2000s. It predicted the future in a really wild way because these now, these tech oligarchs, a lot of them are transhumanists and they do believe that we as a humanity, we could better ourselves by putting chips or slowly live long. We can choose to live longer if we choose to become transhumanist. And so I, reading this book, the way it goes between the present future and then the present past with this one man who I also like the idea of the main character being a comedian because in a world that starts to silence people, often we go after comedians because they're the ones who are satirizing and reflecting back at us. And that is what this character is doing and getting in trouble for. And so I, there was like multiple levels why I appreciated this book at that time. It's interesting, isn't it? And he's also, I mean, did you have any, like I've read, I read Atomized or the elementary particles. It's a different title in England, right? It is, it's weird. Someone said to me, have you read elementary particles? I was like, no, I haven't read that one. And then I was like, oh, I have read Atomized. But like, I did find myself, especially when I read that when I was younger, reacting against like some of the grossness of his higher characters. It's like. I mean, yes. He's quite misogynistic in his writing. No, I'm highly aware of that. But I thought it's kind of, but I kind of liked the irony of it. Like, you know, we might like to think that if we're going to clone people for the future, they're all going to be goodies. But like, it's kind of like ironic that now this is the story they're telling of these like Daniel 24 and 25 are telling this story of like humankind. And it's based on like, this misogynistic messed up man. This misogynistic comedian. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the thing that I do enjoy about his writing is it challenges my, like, yeah, my reaction in ways. Yet at the same time, I don't always, it's not that I think he's always wrong. No. And it was funny because Fleur Fortunet was the director of Assessment. And she kind of rolled her eyes when I told her I was reading Michelle Welbeck when we were making this film. And I kind of enjoyed that because she's like a very, she's incredibly French also. And yeah, she's like, I don't think she's a fan. No, he is one of those like real polarizing figures in France, isn't he? Yeah, truly. And I think anyone who reads him, but I do find his reflection of society and culture and in its extremities to have a truth to it that is maybe ugly that we choose not to see. But in its extremities, I do think he's at, I mean, that's why it's wild that this was written in 2005. And it's actually where we are today. I know. I wrote down from the New York Times review and they reviewed it at the time, I think in 2006. They said for him, the ideal of total human liberation leads to a kind of totalitarianism of private desire, which I think is kind of true of where we are. Like it does feel like we're in this sort of, I don't know, like heightened pleasure seeking, but kind of everyone in that isolated like communities and seeking after the things that they want, but there's not much like communal awareness of how that impacts other people. Yeah. And it just, we become so siloed eventually. And it's the return to the caves. Yeah. And how do we communicate to one another in that future? Yeah. It's, it's brutal, but it's not, it doesn't feel too wild. No, it doesn't. Even the cult doesn't feel that wild. I feel like literally anyone we know right now who's create, who are these big voices of AI at any moment can create this cloning. Yes. Yeah. And convince a bunch of people to live forever through the cloning. You couldn't pay me to live forever. Can you imagine? I'm not interested in that. I like the idea of things ending. Oh, completely. Yeah. Because when I went to see Eternity on Thursday and I thought it was so fun and joyful and like, you know. And then I'm like, these are my books that I love. But I mean, we do have fun ones in there. Yeah. But it's, it is that sense of like, God, I was thinking, God, I wouldn't want to do anything for an eternity. Like it's kind of, it's quite oppressive actually. Yeah. It's like picking, you know, going like live in the mountains forever. Like, oh, I don't know. It's kind of hard. Well, I think what was clever about, uh, it kind of in the same way that you were just quoting the, the New York times review. Um, what I loved about the, uh, humor of the attorney that's presented in our film or the afterlife is that I feel like David frame, the, uh, filmmaker and co-writer, um, what he created was this reflection of what we've become as a society of like this obsessive consumerism. Exactly. Of the best thing is like around the corner, all you have, like there is perfection. There is something that everyone wants and I'm going to tell you what it is. I'm going to sell it to you. And the fact that you die and you think you're going to meet your creator and what you just see is just more consumerism. I think it's a funny, um, nihilistic, uh, potentially backdrop for telling a story about an ordinary love story and kind of the simplicity of that. Um, so there is something sincere to it while the actual afterlife maybe seems insincere in a way. No, I completely agree. And it's also that idea that like, who wants to live in like a world that's that specific and singular, like that those afterlives are. It's like, who wants to just live in 1960s Paris or like just live in the mountains or just live on a beach? Like, but that is kind of how we're living now. It's like everyone in their own little tunnels. Yeah. And everyone hoping to find their perfect fill in the blank. Yeah. And it's, as opposed to kind of embracing our imperfections and the things that make us different being the things that we should be championing. I also, um, thought that one of the things that I liked about, um, the possibility of an Island is it, you know, it really gets deep into aging. And like my gut reaction was some of it was like, Oh, it's so sexist. But then they're like the kind of character. Daniel also goes through the experience of being at the, the like orgy that his girlfriend has when she's about to move to America. And he's like the old guy, like bopping around the room. And there was this one line I wrote down that only an authentically modern country was capable of treating old people purely as rubbish, which I thought was really interesting in the context of eternity and people arriving at their like happiest. And yeah, actually, and I guess, you know, spoiler alert, the obviously how the movie ends is that, yeah, you might've had these like moments when you were technically happier when you were younger, but ultimately they were like, yeah, complete moments. And he also has a quote in submission. He says something about how we, um, uh, we are nostalgic about the past and we're hopeful for the future. Um, and then the, the present is really just like endless depressive. I know the exact, it's towards the end of submission. Um, and so when people ask specifically about eternity, like where, when do you think you'd come back? Happiest happiness is something that we reflect on and it's something we look towards. Um, and so you can't actually compare them. Like what are, what, like, yes, you can be content and happy in a moment, but like that's incomparable when you like thinking about a whole life. No. And I was thinking about, I was thinking, well, when would mine have been, and I was like, it probably would have been when I was a teenager, but there's also something about that area of your life where your soft underbelly is so exposed to like, you know, where, cause you haven't yet been through anything. So it's like not real, but yet you feel like you felt all of it. Yeah. Like being a teenager. Oh God, you can pay me to be a teenager again. No, but like 11, 12 sounds kind of free. 11, 12 is fun when you're just like, I'm running outside of with water guns or something. Yeah. It's the moment before. Yeah. Totally. Before everything is, what happens to the brain. I think the brain goes through, um, the ability to synapses where you can actually put yourself in other people's shoes and that's where you start getting self-conscious. But until then you're kind of just living only your life. And that's really pleasant. And now we all like have to reckon with being perceived so much, right. Because of social media and you're, or we're electing to, well, true. You're off social media, right? You don't. And was that the right decision? You feel good about that? Yeah. I, there's part of me that wishes I could have one that I can curate and it all be just amazing things that I want to look at. Like, I don't know, art and recipes and like philosophical quotes that like I can then go down rabbit holes. But the truth is, is I actually will go down the things that are, what do they call it? Doom scrolling where you like go down and you just are like, it's just like you can, like luckily when you're not on it, you're blocked. You're not allowed to just randomly search things on Instagram. Um, and so to me I don't actually have as much as I think I do. The self-regulation to not receive any of the other, other stuff that I don't want to actually be around. I do a routine call every now and then where I just like do an unfollow of anything that isn't bringing joy. And does that then reflect in what you are? Okay. Yeah. But it's, I mean, it's a lousy way. I'd prefer not to have to be on it. Daniel is obsessed with his dog Fox. Are you a pet person? No, me neither. Really? It's like a secret shame. Yeah, I know. It's a shame of mine too. Especially I've done like a puppy interview. I think, um, is it Buzzfeed? Yeah. Buzzfeed. They do the dog interview. And I, um, and it was hard for me. I was like, these dogs are peeing everywhere and they smell. I am. We need to create a support group. I'm looking at my publicist right now. Who's like, Lizzie, stop telling people you're not into. And I, I wasn't, wasn't, I didn't enjoy it. I don't get it. Sure. I feel like I am judged immediately if I don't want to hold some or touch someone's pet. Yes. I know people show me pictures of their cats and dogs and I'm like, they're very cute. but also similarly, I don't necessarily want to hold other people's babies either. It's not that I don't find them sweet or they make me smile, but there's like a responsibility of me, I don't know, of me physically engaging. And it's only until I, I like feel like a connection to the thing, whatever it is, you know, be it animal or human, or do I want to like physically engage with them? I feel the same. Are you a crier when you watch movies or not really? No. Me neither. Okay. No, I'm really not. There is one that gets me every time. There's two. Gone with the wind. At the end. Yeah. And the way we were. Yeah. Okay. They both kind of end similarly. Yeah. Like I'll see you later, maybe honey. Like, you know, like they both kind of have that kind of ending. Yeah. Um, where Barbara is the one who's doing it and one and Clark Gable and the other. but, uh, yeah, I, those movies get me every time, but, uh, maybe that's also connected to nostalgia again. Yeah. Nostalgia is a very powerful feeling. Totally. No, I'm not a crier either. And I always feel like I've been to the movies twice the last few weeks. We went to see, uh, the, the Nuremberg movie about the Nuremberg trials. And God, I can't even remember the other one we went to see, but another one that made. Most of my group cry. And I was, I felt like I just was like quiet on the walk to the restaurant after. Cause I was like, am I dead inside? Why am I not? I think certain ones have really, when they, when it does happen, I, I actually feel, uh, very overwhelmed. Yeah. It happened in Barry Jenkins film. Moonlight. Yeah. Um, at the end of that movie and sobbed, um, similarly, uh, strangely, perhaps arrival. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I had to sit through the entire credits before getting up because I was a total mess. And I think it has something to do with like, what is time? Yeah. What is a life? Yeah. Like it really overwhelmed me. Um, and I couldn't control myself. Yeah. Like I can't like pleasantly cry during a movie. It clearly, it like overwhelms me. I know exactly what you mean. Like, I don't get sentimental tears. I get like existential ones. Yeah. And then I'm, and then you're broken. Yeah. And then like, I don't want to go to that dinner. I'm like, um, Oh, it's so interesting. Well, one of the themes in, um, the possibility of an island that's also in an X book all fours by Miranda July is these like age gap relationships, which I think is so funny. Cause they really offer different perspective. Cause I think Miranda July and hers talks about how the women I dated were often my age, but the men always had to be older. Men need a headstart for it to be even. Yeah. Which I think is so funny. Also, I mean, I, there, I do love the extremity of going into both mindsets. Even Cersei has its own kind of, you know, feminist version of telling something for the first time from a woman's point of view. Exactly. And so I do love jumping into that. Yeah. Um, cut off for it. So I, I read first bad man, uh, like in 2020, I think. And I was already a fan of Miranda's work. I just think of her as being not linear, very abstract, obsessive, potentially on like a concept. And so I've always loved her, um, films because of her. But reading first bad man, it was, I was like, Oh, wow, this is my favorite art form of hers. And she can do so much. And, uh, and then when all four is, when I got to read that within the year, it was, uh, it was even, you know, promised even more than what, like what I had already expected. I loved it so much. And that seeking of freedom. It's radical. It is radical. It's so radical. And hilarious. Yes. She's out loud. She makes me, she is the writer that I laugh out loud reading the most. Yeah. Like I laughed out loud a lot during Sag Harbor, Colson Whitehead's book. um, uh, this, I laugh, I laugh consistently out loud, constantly. It's so radical to sort of like the way she like prods at shame and like not, and like, which I just think is so, I admire it so much. Yeah. And then she tries to, uh, act out on all the things that she couldn't ever imagine. Right. Um, like even having, uh, is it that he puts in a tampon or pulls out a tampon? Yeah. And like, even like that, like how, like she's like, well, I've never done this before. Let's do it. And the, and the, uh, when she finally sleeps with someone else and it's Audra, the woman who, and I was just like, great. That is so crazy. Yeah. And she has this like amazing experience. And then, and then she's walking down the street after and she's like, Oh, after all this judgment of this woman. Yeah. It's, it's so radical. Yeah, really. It's, I mean, how, how do you feel about aging? Cause a lot of the book is really reckoning with how, you know, I think she's sort of interrogating the received wisdom that she's had about aging. Right. Yeah. Um, especially from her one friend. Who's the sculptor. Yeah. I want to age. Um, I want to get older. Yeah. I think we're lucky to get to do it. Um, I would like to do it elegantly. I think, um, I look at actresses, um, like Charlotte rambling. Uh, she's really, uh, someone I'm thinking about a lot recently because I don't think I was really familiar with her work when she was younger. I just think of her as this wise, older actress who's like face I'm obsessed with his performances. I adore, um, that I saw her in Woody Allen stardust memories and he photographs her kind of the way I think, um, uh, Bergman would have. Yeah. And it is so, uh, it, her beauty is so shocking. It's so crazy what she looks like. Um, and she wasn't gripping onto it and there's nothing sexier than that to me. I completely agree. Yeah. So I, I look and also take women like Diane Keaton, like again, like this, like amazing, iconic beauty at a young age and they're not gripping. Yeah. And I find that to be inspiring. And I also just think of aging as like, what a gift you get to like, continue to like learn, explore, grow, have deeper, longer relationships with people. Um, you have more time to see more things and learn more. Yeah. I think one of the women in her study says like, oh, how lovely not to be measured by this bullshit anymore when she ages out of like, yeah. To like, be a like young, attractive lady kind of thing. Yeah. And the, uh, the liberation that comes with it. Totally. Yeah. As an actress, do you have like actress friends that you would like talk to as in, because I imagine, I mean, it's the pressure is a lot for everyone now is social media, but I do feel like for actresses, it must be and models or anyone in that industry must be acute. Sort of. I mean, I, I don't have too many actress friends. I have one very close friend who is a mother of three now. Um, and it like her, like her jobs have completely shifted. And when that happens, when your job shifts, also your hours of work shift, which mean you no longer qualify for certain health insurance and you're a mother of three, you know? So it's really the, it's really then even magnified by that. and so there's that kind of conversation that feels very heavy. Um, but we both love what we do so much. And she also adores being a mother. Um, I don't feel pressured by anyone I work with to, uh, do anything like Botox or like whatever. I don't know. Like no one's giving me that pressure. I think that's a pressure people put on themselves and society and culture and judgment. Like I do feel like you're kind of up for judgment constantly, but you got to choose how much you want to take that on or take it in. Yeah, exactly. I think about that a lot. Like I had Botox a couple of times in my earlier thirties and then I, she's also so normalized. Totally is at this point. Yeah. We did a study and our average age of our reader taking, having their first Botox was 33, but I stopped just because I, I stopped liking the way my face moved. Like I just didn't look as, but at the same time I now notice that I'm like, Oh my, I'm starting to look a bit older, which is sort of, it's just, of course I'm starting to look older. I am older, but it is a, it's a funny thing to kind of reckon with. Well, that's what I found. So like you're saying radical about reading. I mean, I always want to just imagine that the character is fine, which is really hard not to, but even when she like starts doing her heavy lifting, she's like, I'm as I get older, I have to have, I have to start heavy lifting. I need to have like stronger muscles to support myself. And then she becomes obsessed with her new ass or whatever from, from doing the lifting. And there is just so much liberation that you feel reading it. It's like every intrusive thought you've ever had. She's, she's not just saying it. She's like, she's like, get the spotlight on it. It's so good. Yeah. The one thing, I mean, I wondered how you felt. Cause I think we're similar age. Yeah. I'm 36. Yeah. So I just turned 37 a few weeks ago and I, the perimenopause conversation, I obviously think is brilliant and really great that women are talking about it more. I've also just felt it as this kind of like pressure of like in my thirties of feeling like time is a ticket that it's coming for you sooner than you think. Have you felt any of that with that conversation or? I mean, I certainly do. I mean, I not necessarily, I don't really equate it. I think to my attractiveness. It's more about the science of fertility. Yeah. And I, and like the truth is, is it just as real? Exactly. What I've been really enjoying is that so many women that I work with have been so honest, whether it's actors or people I work with in hair and makeup, or, but they're being so honest about like, like this perimenopause is a real thing. Do you take hormones? Do you not take hormones? Why do you not take them? Or like, what are the different supplements you can take to help? And you know, I, it's a conversation that I know they didn't really have people having a lot of dialogue and conversations about when they were younger. And so it's something that I, I now, when people are complete, like happening, like, Oh God, I feel so uncomfortable. I feel, you know, this is happening in my body. I don't feel like it's a negative thing to say, is it perimenopause? Like it's now, it's something that we're just talking about because it, I feel closer to it. And it also is something that will happen. And we're all talking about it more instead of like it being this thing that we're not allowed to talk about and that we're all going to be young and live forever. Exactly. Yeah, it is. You're right. It's, it's better. I think maybe it's just because I'm single that you start to feel that like, Oh my God, like everyone's pushing you from both directions. But I think it's because I'm also married that I don't feel potentially the same fear of it. I would like this, like ticking time bomb that was in my head. I was like 45. And now I'm like calling true. I don't know. Like, what is that? Like, you don't know. You don't know. Yeah. And I don't really, I wonder if doctors can probably give you a bit of an understanding of that. I'm not sure. I don't know. Yeah. It's a, it's a different, I mean, less than knowledge is power, but it can sometimes I think, yeah, it's just, it's just an interesting thing. How much that conversation has exploded since this book. I mean, totally off like off topic of these books, but knowledge is power to a point. Like I don't like wearing wearable technology for that reason. I already have enough things I'm kind of obsessing over and I don't want, I don't want my data. No, I completely agree. I don't want to know. Like I, I completely, I absolutely agree. I'm like, am I fine? Like I woke up and I know I didn't sleep well. Yeah, exactly. Like, I don't need someone to really make me feel bad about it or like some data to make me feel even worse about it. Like I absolutely know I didn't sleep well. I remember every time I turned. Yeah. No, it's crazy. Isn't it? That pressure and that it's too much, too much data. It's a lot. Yeah. Well, your fourth book, Circe by Madeline Miller is, um, it's amazing. And then like, you know, you spoke earlier about classics, but tell me about your love of this book. So I loved the Iliad when I was, when I was in, when, when did we read it? Seventh grade or something? So you're 13. You read the Iliad in seventh grade? I think we read it in junior high. Yeah. Wow. And it really, uh, just opened up something that I fell in love with. And then in college and some in high school, but mostly in college, you really focus on Greek tragedies and, um, you read poetics. And I, so I, uh, and then also going to Rome for the first time when I was, I was working in London and I took a, I was maybe 23 or something and took that short trip over. uh, ancient anything just blows my mind. Um, the way she writes these, I mean, also a song of Achilles, the way she writes these stories, are just, it's, it's so brilliant. I, I think her, her prose, especially when you're contrasting it to like a classic text, um, pulls you in and welcomes you without dumbing it down in any way. And it feels like it's really, um, rooted and in every other tale that she's able to combine or every, like you feel like the history and the, um, the knowledge she has of all of the ways, like we've like come to this point of this point of view of telling Cersei story. And it also felt radical. And it also felt, um, you just feel for this woman who's treated so terribly that she sent into isolation because of her power. And I was reading it when I was doing Dr. Strange or right before I did Dr. Strange, um, multiverse of madness where my character similarly is like sent to a place where she has to like hide her own power. And so there, and she's a witch. And so there was like something in it and that, that I really loved. Um, and so yeah, it felt, it, it was like fueling something that I was really enjoying about the power of what women hold. I also love the humanness of it. I mean women. Yeah. She's a God. Yeah. But the way that she writes it, that like, you know, someone will just be in a bad mood one day. Like, you know, it's, it sort of makes it, I don't know, Phil, there's like all of these like big existential themes. And then it's so like gritty at the human level that makes it so gripping. Yes. Yeah. It's really special. And then I tried to read, there's a, I was working in London and there was a Odysseus. I don't know which version of it was in the house. And I tried to read and I was like, can she just do this story now? Like I, like I now I can't even pick up another version. I just am like waiting for her next. I, I just love reading her, her way of telling these Greek tales. I know you're an AP on eternity, but do you ever read books with the goal of adapting them? Um, Circe, when I read it, I was thinking, how would one do this? And I think someone did try to option it. And I think some studio was thinking about making it. I don't know how you do it. Like, especially like the gods being gold. And like, I, that's what I remember. Like really when I was reading it was how do you make this not cheesy? Yeah. Um, because it, it doesn't read cheesy, but the moment you put actors to it, it is cheesy. And I think my favorite literature things that probably shouldn't be adapted. Um, but I, but I say that yet. I read like the entire Neapolitan series, Elena Fronte the summer. And I know people adore that Italian, uh, TV show that they did. They really do. So I did, I didn't watch it, but I can imagine how great that is, but still there's something about, having to cast people at different ages, you know, it's like that whole thing. I don't know if it takes you out of it or not. Whereas a book you're, you're just, I don't know. Some of them should just exist. I also just like the, the ambiguity in a book. Like, I really hate it when people try to like tell. And that's what I guess I liked about the Wellbeck as well is like, I don't need someone to tell me that this character I can, well, I can deduce things for myself. And like, whereas I think sometimes when a book is adapted, you lose some of that sort of gray area and you have to make some decisions about things that I like being able to do as a reader rather than having someone tell me that. I think the only book that I've read where I immediately wanted it to be a limited series or a film was a fine balance through a hint and mystery. I haven't read that. It feels kind of rush, like classic Russian and its scope, because it's about a hundred years of two different families. And so it even starts with like the names of the families and the different generations and who's whose child. And that felt like something I would love to watch that I think would be able to explore everything the way it needs to visually in a limited series or multiple part film or something. Is there a dream, like role that you would love to play from like a book or anything like that? Or no, mostly plays. I really, yeah. Well, are you going up? No, I've said it before. I marry Tyrone and long days journey. And tonight was something I've always wanted to play. Yeah. And I would love to do George and Martha. I would love to do who's afraid of Virginia Woolf. Amazing. Yeah. I just have always wanted to have that kind of verbal battle that they have. It's that's like there's so much heavy life experience and there's so much cruelty and loss and humor. And it's something that I, yeah, that's a, that's a role I would love to get to play. Did you do theater stuff at school, like high school? Yeah. And I went to school for it at NYU. And I got to do like Carol Churchill's top girls was my, you don't have like a final show or whatnot, but that kind of was like the main performance that was important to me in college. But yeah, theater was, was everything. It was like, that was my entry into acting from the beginning was, was theater. Yeah. And like the academia of theater, like the stories of how the Moscow art theater was really representing the people in a way. Like I just, I just started master Margarita last night and just Bulgakov story of being silenced as a writer and then starting to work at the Moscow art theater as a director. I just, that kind of transitions that he'd still be in the arts. Yeah. Does LA have like a big theater scene? No, no. Interesting. No, not really. I mean, there is one, it was more, I would always get excited about the touring shows. Yeah. We have some great places where people tour, like the Druid theater company from Ireland. They'll, they'll often go to LA. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. So you get some good stuff. I feel like I only got into theater in my twenties. Like I love it now and I love going, but it took me a while to sort of like get it in a way. And were you raised in London? Birmingham. In the middle. I feel like even in, I feel like in the UK, every town still has a theater and it's normalized as part of its community. And we all studied so much Shakespeare from quite a young age. And Birmingham is very close to Stratford-Upon-Avon. So we would go there a lot on school trips and stuff, which is amazing. And that's where they, I mean, that theater is incredible. That's where they start out so many productions. I know they did Hamnet there. Exactly. I'm so excited for that. Did you read that book? Yeah. I read it. I don't know. Whenever it came out. Yeah. Four or five years ago or something. I can't wait to see what they do with the movie. Me too. And I, I, it's not, it seems like it is slightly different. I think Paul's part is slightly larger than it is in the book, maybe, or whatever, however they do it. I'm really, those actors I adore so much. And through like Chloe Zhao's like visualization of that world. But again, one that felt so specific to what you were imagining as a reader. I'm really, I'm, I, there aren't a lot of books that I read that then become movies, I guess. And so I'm curious. I'm really curious about that as well. Yeah. And, but I think Jesse Buckley will be great. I think that she will like bring that kind of, she is perfect for it. Right. Yeah. The wildness. Exactly. Yeah. And like when you, and, and the sort of like mysticism and the like, Oh, I just, I think it's going to be like the gravity of like nature in her. Yeah. And the like mothering. I don't know. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah. It'll be great. I hear it's unbelievable. really? Yeah. Interesting. She's meant to be coming on this. Oh, great. Oh, I'd love to see what she picks. It is fascinating seeing what people pick. Like, I'm like a confused person by these, I think. I loved that you had so much science and physics in there. It was kind of like surprising. Cause I mean, genuinely when I was reading the, which one, the, when we start to understand the world. Yeah. There was so much that I like had to just go back and I just didn't get it. Go back and reread it. Absolutely. It was one of those books that I feel like you can return to so many times. I just like was really struggling to hold some of the ideas in my brain. I was like, but part of me thought when I was reading it, I remember knowing like, I could look this up right now and try and understand what the hell they're talking about. Or is it about something else? Or is it about the human nature of the obsession of the discovery of playing God, of being the creator and founder of something that will alter the course of history? Like, is it more about that and the like human stories of that? Yeah, I think you're right. I was getting very like the obsessive part of me was firing up, firing up. I was like, chill, chill. Well, thank you so much. This was such a wonderful conversation. I'm so grateful for you picking such great books and I can't wait for everyone to see Eternity. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you.