Creator Interview. Chris Rawlins and Brad Hodgins. Card Games, Vision, The Feed.

Hi everybody, welcome to this, my second creator interview. Now, with Chris Waddington, Brad Hodkins, Hodkins, not Hodkins, yeah, that. I'm getting better, however, I'm learning, I had three people on the same mic last time, now I have different mics, I nearly got it right, but it's a bit weird sometimes. But go with it, I'm doing my best. I'm getting better, I've got three more interviews to edit and they get progressively better, technologically, technically even, so, but it's all good. It's probably me being too picky, but I really enjoyed this one. They talk about card games, which I haven't reviewed yet, I've done a couple of social posts, they will explain what that is, I will explain it very quickly now, it is, no I won't, no, I'm gonna let them do it. And if you wanna know more, please go to hiddengames.store, it's not easy to find by just Googling it and trying to find it. And then you will find out about card games, which is just, no, again, I can't help it. If I do, it's gonna go wrong, and I'll be here for half an hour. And vision, now vision, I've done reviews of vision, review of vision and of Noted, there's another interview with Chris about Noted, and it's lovely because they get to explain it and I can, don't have to, therefore avoid messing it up and wasting your time by you getting to the end of it and still not knowing what I'm talking about. So there you go. Very much appreciate Brad and Chris doing this, so check out hiddengames.store, you'll find vision on there, and if it's out of stock, there are a few other places selling it, I think Vanishing Inc. has got some, Monster Magic might have, I don't know. And if you've got any questions, do put them below in the comments, because I'm going live lots, and on that, please, if you've got any subjects or questions about anything, I will go live and talk about that. Doesn't matter if you can't make it, it's just nice, isn't it? Rather than just guess what you wanna know. And if you wanna know when live interviews, there's gonna be some live ones of these soon, live streams and other videos and podcasts drop, please do go to stevefalkner.com forward slash newsletter, stevefalkner.com forward slash newsletter, all of that will be in the description. I won't say much at the end of this, because that's all the details you need. Right, let's get on with it. First up, thanks Chris and Brad for coming on and explaining things I'm ---- at explaining. That's not true. Yes, it is, I try the simplest trick, I sort of, and I sort of, I have to apologize to people that are building work down on everybody, but that's the way it goes. Yeah, I do, even the simplest trick, I don't know what it is, but I'm good at written explanations, verbal explanations, I'm good at the difficult stuff of teaching it, but actually the simple thing of what, the kind of summary of it is shocking. So thanks for coming, saves me a job. Chris is very good at that, so he'll cover my English then. Brad's really good at it, you know, all balances out. Well, tell me what we're talking, so I wanted you to, because you're sort of going off on, sort of with Card Games and Vision and there seems to be a kind of theme, not a theme as in you're making the same stuff, but a mission, what's the mission of this? Well, what is it that you're doing? What's it called? Where can people find it? And what's the kind of ethos behind it? Yeah, sure, so yeah, hiddengames.store is the website. We had six, it was a six part sort of project that we have, we've just finished volume one and that was a sort of project where the members got a new trick through the post each month. And really me and Chris on the website, we've written, we believe in magic as play. So each of those months was somehow related to a card game or, you know, play in some sense. And yeah, I've been really enjoying it. It's been well received so far and we're planning volume two as we speak. And volume one, just to clarify for people, is not just one thing, is it? Volume one is like the whole six, but that's what I think can be confusing. I think people think that is volume one the one thing, but it comes in, each volume comes in six. It's like a series, right? Season one. Yeah, season one, that's a better way to say it probably. Yeah, season one was every month you got something in a post, but it was a physical thing and it's not, you know, it wasn't just, you got a, I don't know what's a bad example. It wasn't just that you got a booklet in the post, you got special props as well. So we really went in on both the design front and the manufacturing front. We really spent a lot of time and money and effort on these props that you get, that in some cases, speaking in code a little, but you know, in some cases go inside of your deck and they just, they look like a real thing you might find in a deck of cards. And in other cases, they go maybe inside of a wallet. And then in some cases, it might be like an impossible object that you can show to your friends or perform with at events. And then in other ways, one of them, the last issue was a complete game. It looked like something you'd find in Waterstones or Borders or Walmart. So these are things we spend a lot of, you know, effort, as we said, and time and worked with great designers and great manufacturers. And we spent a lot of money on them as well, is the truth. We didn't cheap out on anything. So all the card stock is really high quality. The printing, you know, some of them, like, you know what they are, Steve, I am speaking in code a little, but like issue one, issue two, issue three, are all, they're essentially gimmicks that are printed on playing card stock and do different things. But those, just to make those three issues, we had to print 500 decks of cards. So it was a big commitment and we didn't know how it would be received. And like Brad mentioned, we're very happy that people seem to really understand it. And he said, what are we doing? Like, what's, yes, Magic is Play. Yes, the project is currently called Card Games and yes, we are volume two plans, but there is a wider arc to the whole thing. And the reason that the website is, contact at hiddengames.stories because this will evolve over time. So it won't always just be card games. It has, we have this bigger kind of picture with it. And what I want to get to that, me and Brad talk about a lot, but it's not immediately obvious to members and other people that might have heard about Card Games. What are we trying to do with it? We're world-building this world where like you can be a person that spends time with friends or clients or whatever, whatever type of magic you do. You can share this magic with people and create this crazy world where all of this amazing stuff happens and you happen to be not at the center of it, but you just happen to be part of that. You know, like we kind of wanted to feel like you're sharing these cool things. If you think about, again, in code, issue six is like a, it's a game and it's just a game that you can win every single time when you play it three times with someone and it gets more and more impossible. But yeah, long answer to a short question, but we think of it that way, I think. And me and Brad see that clearer because we know the bigger picture of it. We are probably truthfully at this point and we're always developing new things. How many years of stuff do we have planned at this point, Brad? If we never came up with an idea, how many years would it take us to share all of the stuff we have? It's six plus, I think. Yeah, I think easily more, like. Yeah, eight maybe, yeah. Maybe eight, yeah. We're still constantly developing these things and these ideas. And there's in between the card games and what that will evolve into, there's, you know, we have in-person events that we're excited to put on at some point. We have individual releases, things like Vision, which we'll talk about. And the descriptions now for Volume 1, sorry, are on the site. So they weren't initially, but they're there now. So you can sort of get a sense for what each month holds. Yeah, we were really, you've probably got this, you have the experience, Steve, kind of with everyone else. I know we asked you if you'd be interested in looking at it partway in. It was after the first couple. But apart from those first couple, you did kind of get them every month with everyone else, apart from the last one, which we sent to the wrong address. Because you moved house. But you kind of had the same experience as everyone. And that's another aspect of it we really like, is the getting every month in the post for six months. It's exciting. It gives you a month to really soak up whatever that thing is and try it out. Yeah, we, you know, people focus so much on like, here's my new trick. It's really interesting to, me and Brad are just really good friends anyway. We met through another friend of ours, a mutual friend of ours, years ago now. And it took us like years to realize like, wow, we kind of think very, we're on the same wavelength with how we approach magic and what we like and don't like. And then people say this a lot as well, I guess. But this all really started with, hey, let's make this for us. And then after a while, we realized like, well, you know, maybe we should think about sharing. I think part of that, for me, I think people come to that realization is a bit grand. But as someone who reviews a lot of stuff. We prefer Epiphany. Yeah, Epiphany, yeah, yeah. That sort of, of being born again moment. Happens. Keep going. Yeah. The next project is The Rebirth. Yeah. You know, that Rebirth at some point, you know, at the middle age, you have when you realize all the magic you've done is a load of ----. Is a, is a, no. But it's funny reviewing stuff because you realize how long it takes to work on one thing, right? So when we talk about vision, or I would say even something like Acidus, you know, yeah, you can learn it pretty quick. You can have a look, you know, but. Give it flight time. Yeah. When there's really something you do. Yeah. And I'm starting to think that even though I love them and for different, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that, but when stuff comes out that does a hundred different things or a book comes out that has 500 different things, unless it's sort of somebody's body of work, that's a different thing. You kind of go, well, I'm going to be dead before I get to 80% in there anyway, if I'm going to learn everything from it. And then I can read for learning and, you know, absorption of knowledge and stuff like that. But when something comes every week or month, or it's kind of like getting a monthly periodical, you kind of know you're going to read it and it gives you time to kind of sit with it and not get that guilt of, oh, here's the next one, I better crack on, you know. You hit something perfect there. Each of the issues of card games, they all do, I mean, they can do more. We've built things in. So everything you have is volume one and anyone has any of the parts of it or full sets. We've built things in that we haven't told them about yet. So there's stuff that you own that you don't know what it does yet fully. But when you read those booklets, you're learning one thing and you're not learning like the third best thing and we've kept the best one for ourselves. You're learning the most fine-tested, tried-out version of that trick that we have developed over probably almost two years, like a year and a half, two years. And also in a really refined, how did you find reading the booklets? Did you find them easy to read, easy to understand? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We really tried to keep it concise. Yeah, just to give people that breathing space. We're both very aware of how much magic is coming out all the time. And it's also part of the reason why we charged a premium price for membership. We both kind of strongly believe that if you invest more in something, whether that's time or money or both, if you join Card Games as a member, say you're a member of volume one, it wasn't cheap to join, but you also make the commitment that every month you'll get something in the post, which kind of leans into what you just said, Steve, which is you then kind of know you have to spend time with it to one, justify the investment you've made in terms of money, but we both kind of feel like that makes you focus on it more and then you get more out of it. So the kind of delivery mechanism to us is interesting. We spent loads of time thinking about the order of it. We kind of, it'd be interesting to know if you felt this when you worked through them, Steve, but we tried to build it so it had a structure and so it built, you know? So the first issue was kind of the most disjointed. And then as you went up the ladder to issue six, you feel a bit more complete by the time you get to the end of that thing. Did it feel like that or was it just? It totally does. And I think that comes down to it as well. And I do have this thing, you know, when people say what you just said, which I also believe wholeheartedly, you know, when people have skin in the game, it's what I always say about this. It's what, you know, if I've not got, man, I'm not, I want to really say to people, I'm not saying this because I'm an affiliate and I'll get money. There's no kickback on this for me at all. But it is true. And I don't think it's grossly overpriced or anything. But when you pay for something and when I've got the least money is kind of when I go, right. If I get, if I'm usually it's courses, right? So I'm investing in a course on this bit of software I will learn because that will make that easier for me. If it's free, I don't tend to get to it. You know, cause some free stuff you get, you get a lead magnet and you go on. You don't want, the minute you've spent a bit, you go, right, I better do that now. Cause I've got to tell Ellen that I can't pay the electricity bill, but I have bought this great video editing software. But we can, we can't pay the electric, but we can play this new game called Color Match. And I've got this seat away to know the outcome of every single game. Yeah. That'll go that well. Problem is I can't shuffle the cards because my hands are frozen. Yeah. It's a win, it's a win-win in it. And it is true. And it has to be that fine balance, I think. Well, and also the props. I mean, we spent a lot on making them. We really made sure from the beginning looked exactly like they should have been. I mean, we were arguing over very minor, like shades of certain color, right? Comparing for the first three months, especially, that those props look exactly as they should look. So if you're going to perform that for a minute, not going to see the prop coming. But the goal of card games, and I'm speaking on both of our behalf, but I'm trying to shut me up if it's wrong. We want this, we're trying to build this world that we share magic with normal people. That's amazing. But also this other side to the same world, this kind of hidden world within the world, there is a group of magicians and performers around the world. Can I say world more in one sentence or two? I don't know. We want to build this group of people that we know who they are. We recognize their names, we know their faces. And that might be, you know, we don't plan to make this 500 members in five years time. We're just aiming for, I don't know, maybe 200 people that get what we're trying to make. And we want to know all of those people, who they are. We want to know where they live. We want to recognize their faces. And then when you do invest in something card games related, like becoming a member of the Future Volume or whatever that turns into, you know that you're one of a small, because that is, you know, a couple of hundred people in the bigger picture of all the people in magic. It's a very small number of people. So you're then like, you're one of a few people out there doing stuff that most people can't even get hold of. And that to us is, that's the magic we like the most is finding a really rare booklet with something and finding a little paragraph in a book that everyone's missed or, and I'm not saying we're trying to be that, but like, we're trying to be mindful that like, there is something special about having something that not everyone else can get. And that's part of it too. Brad, where did you come into this and how did that sort of start with, with sort of merging to working with Chris? Yeah, it happened really naturally. Me and Chris were just sort of friends anyway. Like Chris said, we met through a mutual friend. I don't know how many years back now, but a few years back. And yeah, we just sort of, we sort of vibed on the same, we were on the same wavelength and loved the same material and we would talk a lot, too much probably. And it's literally, this is the God's honest truth. It started with an idea and we didn't have the prop and it ended up sort of coming to fruition. And we said, why don't we just put this one thing out and get the props made to sort of cover the costs of making it. And then this whole project spawned from that. And it's been amazing. And every new idea, even now, we're having new ideas and it's all sort of stemming from that one initial idea. So it's been really special, but my background is, I guess, a magician. I'm sort of more, I'm closer to a mentalist now than I've ever been, but yeah, that's my job. And, you know, this is a sort of fun project for me and Chris on the side and it's sort of growing and growing and growing, which is really nice. I was trying to guess how, was it you, Brad, or Chris that kind of was the creator or co-creator or the original genesis of the idea because you both co-created the vision, because that's kind of a little bit of a detour from, it feels like something that's slightly different, not for you, Chris, in your history, but I think with the, you know, very different card games and... Yeah, vision came really early, didn't it? What happens a lot is, Brad lives down South, I'm up near Manchester, so we speak on the FaceTime a lot. We speak on the phone, we speak all the time. And we will often say, we have a meeting every Monday, unless we're super busy, which has been recently, but we try and, at the beginning of the week, talk about like where we're at, what we need to do, blah, blah, blah. And in between that and as part of that, we share like things, you know, things that popped into our head or stuff we think might be interesting or whatever. So one day, Brad just said, he said, I think you're gonna hate this idea. And then he told me it, and he said, a MagSafe peak wallet. And I went, of course I don't hate this idea. What are you talking about? This is brilliant. And then we went away and developed it, and it did, it happened really early. It took us a lot of effort and money and time to get right. We explored all the avenues and, you know, and options with mechanical approaches and where to put magnets and if it was still, and we just went full circle, which is funny to talk about a MagSafe thing, but full circle to kind of keeping it really simple. And, but it was a long, it was a long process of working on it. And then came to Brad's idea, and it's a great idea. And we're super happy with how it came out. I think we couldn't be happier with it. And again, like Vision, we did kind of share some with Vanishing Inc. They were interested, so we offered them some of the batch we had left after Blackpool. But at the moment, there's only like 300 of those that exist in the world as well. So something you might see on Vanishing Inc. at some point, and it'd be sold out, and it might never be available. We might make some more for card games, but it's on your phone. But yeah, Brad's idea, and it was really good with working with Brad. And I think we both really have learned how cool it is and useful to have like two heads on a thing. But there's something real, we're like, we're generous with what we share with each other. We share with this open understanding that, you know, it's fine if Brad says, what about this? But I'd like to do something with it myself. And I respect that, and Brad would if it was the other way around. But we're both generous with bringing ideas to each other for card games or hidden games. And then we work on them together. So we develop, you know, like with Vision, Brad had the idea for it. We both, I would say, put in the same energy and time and effort with how it looks and how it functions. And then we both did the same with the kind of ways that you use it. So the hinging off the back of the phone with one of our ideas and the other thing in the instructions was another one of our ideas. What's good about that for people that buy something like Vision and use it, as you found out, Steve, is that you actually get this kind of 360 look at something, I think. You know, just with my stuff, you get kind of just my, most of the time, just how I use it. And that's it. I think this is the best way. And me and Brad have a lot of great conversations where we push back on each other about how this needs to be included. No, I don't like that. What about this? No. And usually me saying no because I'm a bit of a negative noo-noo all the time. You're not, you're not, you're fine. It is funny though. You said earlier when I said, I think you'll hate this. I always get it wrong. The stuff that I think you hate, you love. Well, I do know that when you say you're going to love this, and then my reaction is always. A 10 second silence. Yeah, yeah. No, I really like, I really like how we work. And I think, I think it would be really valuable in Magic if more people just had a friend. You don't have to be someone you're going to sell anything with or work. Like me and Brad are doing card games, honestly. Like, yes, we have people who are hungry for volume two and we have big plans to grow this. I think me and Brad will be working on stuff in Magic, sharing Magic under the bracket of card games or whatever that end up, however that evolves over time. I think for as long as I can imagine sharing Magic, me and Brad will be doing something together in some form just because we work so well together. Brad's like the calmest, most easygoing person you'll ever meet. And we just have a good laugh when we're together. And we said from the beginning, this has to be fun otherwise, what's the point of doing it? We're not like, we're not buying helicopters with the money we make from card games. We're just, we're doing it as a fun project and we're two mates, we get to make cool stuff together and that's the best job in the world, I think. So before we go on, I've just realized that we haven't really, you kind of did mention it, Chris, a little bit. I don't know whether you or Brad want to take this. We haven't really talked exactly about what Vision is. Vision is a peak wallet. Loads of them, isn't there? Chris is so much better at this than me. I'm aware that I talk way too much, so please trim me out at the end as much as possible, Steve. Yeah, Vision is a peak wallet. Vision is a different kind of peak wallet though. So it was something we worked on. It's a MagSafe peak wallet. When we were developing and working on Vision, there'd only been one other person that had made something like this and it worked very differently. What we pride ourselves on with Vision is the way that it works, how simple it is, how reliable it is, and the build quality of it is kind of exceptional. It's as good as if you were to go in the Apple shop and buy a MagSafe wallet and put it side by side with ours. The only difference is in terms of everything. We actually tried to have our maker stamp it with the Apple logo, but he said it wouldn't get through customs, so we couldn't do that. But that's the only difference. The materials are the same, truly. The quality, the stitching is all the same. It has to be, right? Because I've got my cards in it. Yeah, because you've got your cards in it. But also, we just don't want to put our name on anything that's badly made or doesn't work. And I think when we think about peak wallets and looking at stuff secretly, we often get very caught up in how clever it can be and stuff. And Vision is clever, but it's also flexible. It's also simple. So what we're very happy with is the quality of it, the simplicity of use, the fact that you can have it on your phone without any worry of it falling off or moving around or falling open or whatever. And it just functions like it should It just functions as a normal MagSafe wallet on your phone. And whenever you need it, it's there ready to go. This was another one, wasn't it? We just wanted to use it, right? Yeah, this was truly... Brad said, what about MagSafe peak wallet? And he said, I think you're going to hate this idea. And I said, I bloody love that idea. Let's do it. We found out it's expensive to have because you have to have the magnets built into that. There's a metal plate behind that part. The stitching detail has to be good so the weak points of the pockets don't, over time, kind of fall away and open up. All of that stuff is detail we didn't know about until we started the process of making it. It took a long time, this one, didn't it? It took ages. We love peaking information, don't we? We love peak wallets. It's the best thing. You know this, Steve. We've talked a lot over the last couple of years about mentalism. And when I first met you and I was opening for Luke at your show, you were very much doing... You were doing all sorts of magic. You were doing a bit of juggling there. I'd say a bit of. You were very good at juggling when I met you. I remember that. But I remember you doing cups and balls in the show and kicking everyone in the balls, pun intended, with magic magic. And then in recent years, you've developed this palette for mind reading. And when you do that more and more, you learn like, wow, it doesn't really... How you do it doesn't really matter. But I think that's kind of the problem with learning mentalism and the joy of it is that when... And we've talked about this before, is that when it's a simple thing, and this is very much a less is more thing. And I'm just being objective. There could have been a lot more. You get it and you go, oh, I've got to work a bit here, right? I've got to... Yes, it's easy and it's simple, but it's not. There's a bit like any peak, any sort of analog peak, I would say there's work to be done. And then you go through this thing of going the simplicity of it surely isn't going to be convincing. And I've always had this, a lot of people have this issue with wallets and it's mostly unfounded because they think, surely they're going to know that's where I'm putting the thing. So you do have to think about nonchalant. You don't know where stuff... You know, the process has to be thought of. But the rewards, I think, are... And I think that's why a lot of us get addicted to it because we're convinced it's not going to be... And it does, right? It just hits more than we think. It's the strongest thing ever. And nothing... When you start learning how to be a mind reader, I think nothing beats it. And I think it is like a thing you get hooked on. And there is this thing in mentalism though, where, it's what you said earlier, you kind of don't realise how good it is or if something will work unless you just do it. So the idea of... I remember when I first got into mentalism and at the time the wallet, we can say it open here, was the stealth assassin. And I was a student at uni and I didn't have a spare £99 to spend on a wallet. I didn't even understand how it worked. I thought, what's a... I don't know. Somehow, if you buy this wallet, you could know what picture that guy's drawn. How does that make any sense? And then that was the start of my addiction to peeking stuff. But my God, it's so good. And it's the same with vision. We've got a thing with vision where we've got a sort of revelation where nothing has to be written down. Yeah, that's probably my favourite thing with it, to be honest. Yeah, no billet, no writing, no anything. I'm aware, Brad, that you've got to go soon. So is there anything you want to just leave us with before you go? Yeah, thanks for having us. It's been really fun. And yeah, I hope people check the website out and like what they see. Iz, if you're not a member of Card Games or you're not... If you have an Android phone and you don't want to put a magazine case on your phone, whatever, and this all sounds uninteresting, I would love if you would... We would both love it if you go and take a look at the website. You can peruse the shop. We've got pictures of the stuff that was in volume one, the descriptions, all of that. But not to sell you anything, we also started a couple of months ago a blog and it's part of the website. It's built into the same website and it's called The Feed. But on there, we're posting announcements. So, you know, when these videos go up, we'll make a post about it and stuff. But we're also sharing free magic. So mentalism, card magic, everything in between is on there. At the moment, there's a great way to, for example, roll a card. There's a great false shuffle that can stop, control, false shuffle. There's a way to make an impromptu forcing die. And it's all completely free, but it's all stuff we really do as well. And it's just, truthfully, it's stuff we could turn into stuff we sell, but we like the idea that we know there are people who, you know, don't want to spend or can't spend money and they just want to see stuff. So if you're bored, if you have some time where you want to keep the tab open and refresh it from time to time, go on the feed and have a look. There's some cool stuff in there. And where can they find that? Bradley? hiddengames.store forward slash the feed. The feed. The feed, yeah. Yeah, hiddengames.store forward slash the feed. The feed, that's it, yeah. That's great. And obviously, I'll be doing the review of the companion video to this. And any questions anybody's got, let me know. But Brad and Chris, thank you so much. And have a good one.