Robert Downey Jr. vs Robert Duvall： The Truth Behind The Judge (2014)

David Dobkin and the film's two stars, Robert Downey Jr. and Robert Duvall. I'm pleased to have all of them here. Tell me how this film began. Is it inspired by personal things? My father was a very powerful attorney, and I was a kid that got in trouble a lot, so there's that aspect. But my mother got ill in 2005, and we had had a very tempestuous relationship. Is tempestuous the right word? Tumultuous. Tumultuous is better. They're both good. Negative. Being in the position of having to parent a parent was something I was really unprepared for, and kind of shocked me and took me by surprise. And in 2007, after she passed away, the week after that, I started to sketch out a story about a family who was dysfunctional and kind of broken, and the mother passes away, and the men in the family are left behind to fill in that vacuum, and what happens after that. And the father is here, and the estranged son is here. These are them now. Tell me about Hank. Hank is a guy who has no conscious understanding of the crisis he's in, even before his mom dies. He imagines that all this worldly success has somehow distanced him from this strained relationship with his dad, lots of misunderstanding, and he doesn't want to deal with it, and he's going to go home to Carlinville for a day or two and get right back to his miserable life. Yes. And why is the father and son not happy? Why are they estranged? I know of no family in the world, in any continent, in any city, where families are not complex. Maybe you do. I don't know any. In this specific case, he has a very successful son. You're a judge, and you're in a small town where you grew up, where you mean something, your morality and your prestige mean something. He's in Chicago. He's a famous lawyer. Represents and gets off a lot of bad guys, as he said. They pay better than the innocents. Well, it's a very complex relationship. It goes way back. We like that. David always said that it's kind of like a Western. It's really more about family than it is about the drama of the trial. It's a family drama. It just takes place in a courtroom on this specific arena of the law. The two very different points of view, one man that's about honor and the other one that's about success. When you were writing this, did you think of these two? Were they in mind? Yes, very much so. I had met Robert a year before I started to write this story, and I thought it would be exciting to see him in a role playing kind of a normal guy, and just stripped down and seeing the drama. He's one of my favorite actors. Bobby, I grew up with his movies, and I've always loved his work. They were very brave roles. These roles are very courageous. They play the edge on these characters. I needed two actors that would not flinch or compromise. Does this attract you, doing something that's not like The Avengers, that's not like Iron Man? Sure. Not like Sherlock Holmes? He took off his Iron Man suit and came on and did this. As a real person. Which is great. To do many things. Thanks. I mean, I think it's funny that I haven't been on The Charlie Rose Show for over five years. I have. Yes, you have. So, look, I think there's a way, and I think Bobby's had the kind of career that... That was certainly our state. It demonstrates that you can be in movies that are commercial and successful, and still maintain a certain cred regardless, and you've been able to do that for as long as I can remember. This is the biggest movie I've been in since Apocalypse Now, and that's 35 years ago. I would argue, you know, Days of Thunder, you've worked with Cruz a bunch, you've done big movies, you've got plenty of movies that have gotten a lot of attention. Well, thank you. Thank you for that vote of confidence. But the point is, is that having done all those films, to have a chance to... Does it work for different muscles? Is there a different kind of... Or, in the end, is acting acting? Acting is acting, but I have to say that there was something so satisfying about this process with David and getting as close as I have with you the way we had to, because you're cohabitating in these very kind of volatile situations, but then we're just having lunch every day and having dinner and talking smack. He's a good chef. This is the first production of Team Downey, isn't it? Yes. Which is? Susan Downey, my better half, has long been a producer and a respected one, and David was on her radar, and likewise, they'd worked together on a project before. So Warner Brothers, you know what happens. Actors get production deals, and then they blow millions of dollars at some poor, unsuspecting studio, and they never really do anything. Did we do that? Blow millions? No, actually, we didn't take too long, but, you know, and then there's Plan B and these other companies that actually wind up making it worth the studio's while, and that's our intention. What's the hardest thing in terms of this venture for you? What was the difficult part of it? Because you had some reluctance to do another courtroom drama unless it had something extra to it. Well, it's funny. I think Bobby and I both initially, you kind of go, and so sometimes I know that I'm going to do something if I have a strong adverse reaction to it because there's some sort of resistance. I don't want to say fear, but if I'm going to go there and really bare my soul, can I trust the environment I'm going to be in? Can I trust that guy to have my back? And that's a very tenuous kind of sensitive thing to consider. Take a look at this. We start with this clip. Here it is. We didn't see the two of them together except that one cutaway. The idea of creating chemistry, you have no idea it can happen like it happened between the two of them. You don't know walking in if it'll be there. Can you create it and can you do things to make it happen? You can. We took a three-week rehearsal process at the beginning of this. It was very kind of unusual these days. And we get to know each other and we hope that chemistry builds. But when you're casting in your head, you're hoping you see what that dynamic is. And of course, what shows up is something altogether its own special, unique thing. And look, some movies, it lights up and the Christmas tree lights up and some don't. And frankly, this one did. And I feel fortunate that it did. Did it light up for you soon? Yeah, I think if you go in and once again, if you just start talking and listening. And that's nothing more than that. And see where that goes. If you do that purely, then you'll be rewarded around the corner for something better and higher. If you do that on a basic level, you know, and it's very easy to do that. You mean getting a sense of who he is as a human being? Yeah, just as people, as actors, as people. Not out here, you get it here. So then, you know, and you just go from there and if there's chemistry, it'll build. I mean, you know, if it's pure in the simplest form, then I think something can build that you need, whether it be. Did you feel it early? Well, again, by the time David had Bobby and Vince and I and Jeremy Strong in place, Dale's just a great, exciting new young actor. Together, basically by the end of the rehearsals, Bobby was running the rehearsal. Well, I don't want to say running. We were in an improvisation. David had set it up so that he had to do very little, just kind of look and he was watching. And then by the time that improv was over, he basically canceled rehearsals because we had hit this critical mass. We were starting to act like a family. Like a 90-minute deal. Yeah. 90-minute improvisation. As us, Bob and Bob, and as the characters, as us. And let it see where it went, you know, and it's kind of a bonding process. Here's some of the actors together in the breakfast scene after the mother. Tell me about the scene in the bathroom. The scene in the bathroom. Everybody asks about that. Why do you think they do? Well, because it's pretty graphic and pretty negative and sometimes people don't like to see those things, but you have to show them sometimes on film. I was a little hesitant to take it at first because, you know, stepping in your own crap is not a thing that's so enticing as an actor. Incontinence of an old man. Yeah, incontinence. And once you decide to do it or commit, then you have to just do it. All out without intellectualizing it. Just do it. Yeah, I'm sorry. We've just been watching these clips and I just, I look at, it's a dumb thing to say, but I look at when the camera goes close on you, the whole story is told. I don't know how you develop that sort of skill. And then the bigger idea is what sort of risks are you willing to take? Are you a natural film actor, you know? And then the other is are you brave enough to do something that if it doesn't go well, you could be ridiculed for doing something indulgent and graphic and, oh, dramatic, you know? So, but, you know, like Bobby said, that starts with incontinence and ends with a knock-knock joke. And we had great writers and we had a skilled director and we talked about it a lot. And by the end, it's the heart of the movie. It was almost like a theater piece. It's the heart of the movie because it's a transition moment? I don't know. I mean, he's, you can't hold to your side of the argument when you're so clearly in need of assistance. And then Hank is, and the way David set it up that day and the way you were playing it, I was just kind of like shocked because I was like, all right, this feels really real and it's not even lunchtime yet and my God. And so I was taken aback. But then it's the first time they laughed together in 25 years and that's kind of the beginning of their healing process in a way, right? I think you have to find the humor in a situation like that. It's just like you have to find the vulnerability in other scenes to offsetting things, you know? And I think this is almost like a theater piece. I think that the actors have a chance to go big, but by going big, you have to do it within the confines of your own temperament. You can't violate what your temperament, you know, says to do or not do. So what were your objectives when you went in to shoot this scene? There was an experience in my family that was very close to that scene and that scene was probably the inciting incident of the movie. And I just knew that the idea of having to get emotionally and physically close with someone who you had a volatile relationship with was an incredibly... there was a short circuit that happens in that moment and people just drop everything and get real. And I just wanted it to be authentic and have integrity and not feel like it was a movie. And I directed it to be shot in an hour and a half, which is what we did. We did three very quick three-camera setups and it just happened. And they were really brilliant and so naturalistic. I know it was shocking for the crew. To Kill a Mockingbird was how many, 40 years ago? Maybe more. There is an Atticus Finch reference here. Yeah, I know. That's the one, I forget what you call it, cultural references or memes or whatever it is. We just decided it was in there naturally and I'm sure Bill Dubuque probably slipped it in there. He's your writer? Yeah, and Nick Shank as well. But Bill really was the one who crafted a lot of the dialogue as we wound up seeing it in the movie. So smartly written. The line is, everyone wants an Atticus Finch until there's a dead hooker in a hot tub. And then you want some mean SOB, I assume is the point. You want somebody like Hank. You want someone who's going to win. If they're a snake, so be it. For you today, this is a cover story, Humanity Fair, nice piece, profile of you, where you are. In terms of the evolution, did you come out of incarceration as a different actor? I wonder. I suppose not. It's kind of like, the dumb way of putting it is it's kind of like being stuck on the runway. Except it doesn't take a couple hours, you're just there for days and days and days. And when you finally get off, you still just start heading toward the destination of where you were going. But I know that in the larger sense, every experience I've had has shaped the kind of artist I've become. And sometimes the lousier events you overcome or you outlive, or they're in their rear view mirror instead of being in the midst of them, that becomes a little part of reference. I know Bobby doesn't like talking about this stuff, because there's a lot of different methods on set. But it really comes down to the experience you've had and how you can bring that forth into your work. So I guess I'd have to say yeah. Some bit of Great Santini came out of your own personal relationship with your father, or not? In this movie? No, no, in The Great Santini. Not so much. My father was very quiet. Your mother was a dominant force, yeah. But he was an admiral, wasn't he? Well, yeah. He went to the Naval Academy when he was 16. They let him in. Way back, yeah. They used to do that before World War II. There's another thing you talk about in this piece, which I found interesting. You got on a scooter in Salinas, Kansas, where your dad was directing a movie. And you say this was a transformative moment. And I didn't quite understand why. Okay. There was a gal named Stacey Nelkin. Hi, Stacey. She's reached out since. I'm sure she's still gorgeous. She is beautiful. She jumped on the back of the scooter. I was on a little Honda Express, and we're out in the middle of Kansas. And Dad's making this movie called Up the Academy. Ralph Macchio, all these people who wound up having huge careers are in it. And I gave her a ride from A to B, and she pushed that big rack into my back. And I felt like a rock star. I felt like Steve McQueen. As long as I didn't dump the bike, I was a stud. There's a great scene in a book called A Long and Happy Life by Reynolds Price. And there's an opening scene just like that. Really? Reynolds Price was a southerner, dude, road scholar, great writer. Somebody might be another Faulkner and became a great Reynolds Price. But that's the opening scene. Roosevelt Coke mustard on the back of a motorcycle, not a Honda or not a scooter. You're directing now a movie, Wild Horses? I directed a movie, yes, sir. You finished? Yes, sir. Are you happy with it? Pretty much, yes. But, you know, we're here to talk about another movie, but it was very fulfilling. Called Wild Horses, and I had James Franco, and who rides a horse? Terrific. Really? He didn't have to learn? No, he can vault and everything. We call him Allstate Everything. The only other person I give that title to is Jimmy Conn. Really? He's also Allstate Everything. But, you know, it was a great experience. Well, you were developing it while we were shooting. And even while we were shooting, I was like, I think I got the money. And I was like, when this movie comes out, I think you're going to have the money to do whatever you want. He goes, no, no, no, I want to do it before. I'm like, my God. We had to recuperate from doing this movie. Bobby took a couple months down and went and directed a movie. The same movie we're talking about? Yes. Oh, Wild Horses. Yeah. Can't wait to see it. Does it give you the same satisfaction as acting? I think it's a continuation of acting. I think they're linked. I try to direct the few times I've done it, you know, as an extension of myself as an actor. You're the apostle. Behavior, behavior, behavior. Where do you put the apostle in terms of satisfaction? I felt satisfied, you know, because I got a wonderful letter from Brando on the wall. Brando enjoyed it and Billy Graham enjoyed it. So the secular and the religious meet. There you go. You can't do better than that, can you? Yeah. Do you like to direct? I'll do it in the future. Right now I'm seeing folks who have the energy, regardless of years, to do both. And then, you know, Susan has given me this great education in producing. And after doing this with David, he's encouraging me to do it. But, you know, I want to talk about the movie I haven't directed yet. Assembling a cast like this, what were you looking for? Just the best actors you could find? Or were you looking for a certain kind of chemistry in terms of fitting the character you had in your mind like you said these two guys did? It's both. I mean, I put little pictures of them on the wall and slowly. Of the actors? Yeah. You put them up and you slowly build the cast. And there's something in the chemistry and the visualization of the characters. But I'm always looking for who somebody is. You know, I don't cast people to try to become characters. I cast them for who they are and to reveal those aspects of who they are. On screen I'm looking for behavior and for, you know, facets. What were you looking for in your prosecutor? Fear. And Billy Bob, who's by the way a lovely, sweet, gentle man, can be an incredibly powerful performer. And I wanted someone that I felt could be toe-to-toe with Robert but in a very quiet and still and unsettling way. As I'm reminding the audience that's watching this, we're talking about a trial that's taking place in which it's a hit and run. And son trying to help his father in a bad place. Here's part of the dialogue between the two of them. Here it is. Stop the car. Mark, I'm speaking Korean. I do like him. You do like him more now? This guy is a great guy. The impact, I mean, what's interesting to all the characters in this back story is in terms of maybe there's a child that you, as Hank, may have left behind. Yep. At the end of the film, where do we find Hank? Where was he going to be five years from now? Well, we wanted to leave that a little bit open for interpretation because so few films do nowadays. But I think that he went there trying to get out of Dodge as quickly as possible. And by getting pulled in he was kind of equal to his salvation. And there's this idea at the end that that seat is not only open for him but is calling to him. The technicalities of a Chicago lawyer becoming an Indiana municipal court justice are many. But I think more than that it just kind of closes the chapter on that the legacy is passed in a way that has honor. Which he needed. He needed a bit. The interesting thing about your life, too, is beyond these remarkable moments and inflection points and transition is friendship. I read an account of what you said about Mel who had been there for you to put you in a film at a time that you needed to be in a film. Absolutely. Mel Gibson, saved by us. And you stood up. Mel Gibson. He'd gotten in some trouble for some things he'd said. And you stood up at a moment and said we need to give this guy some understanding and a break. He made a mistake. He knows he made a big mistake. And I thought that said something about you. Well, you know, loyalty is important. I just believe it. I also know that sometimes it just takes a little bit more time. But things shift and things change. But, you know, actually I think our industry can be very, very forgiving. And then I think that you just need people to rally around you. And that's what I certainly had. Did you know you were going to say it going up to the podium or was it? I knew that because it was a night where they were paying some attention to me. I was there. It was the Cinematheque Awards. And he was the recipient of the entire night of the award. And he turned his speech into a moment of saying, hey, you know, this guy behind me, it's time for you guys to drop it and move on. And he was magnanimous and he was amazing. What if you hadn't worked with him? Would you still have said it? Because I knew him and because we shared time together, even if we didn't have a professional career, just knowing him as a man. But I just know there was this time when we were just kind of piggy. We were leapfrogging over each other from one kind of faux pas to the next. And he'd run into me and I'd just gotten arrested. And he goes, I'm sorry, man. I thought it was funny. What are you, Goldilocks? He goes, are you OK? Listen, what can I do to help you? And so when things shifted for a minute, and by the way, you know, because it can change like that for anybody. Oh, my God. You know, alcoholics used to be the pariahs of society. And now we understand that it's a brain disease. You know, it's an issue. What do you think inherited, in fact? It's certainly brain and brains. Well, there's DNA. Yeah. Look, I don't know much. I just, you know, I try to keep up on this stuff. But, you know, just to put a thing on it regarding Mel, what he is first and foremost is he's a national treasurer of ours. And sometimes people are difficult and complicated. He stood up for it in Hollywood, though. Yeah, that's the point. He stood up for it. But it's starting to change. Yeah. And probably that's had something to do with it. Because you are where you are today, I mean, this is Robert Downey Jr. He's the highest paid actor in the world. How Trouble Paz led to the greatest third act in Hollywood history. I love it. You see your life that way? This is quite amazing. I'm going through these. It's like a three-act play. Right. I mean, the third act now, there may be four or five acts. Honestly, I see it as it's this odd thing. Because everybody's life, there's the story of their lives and it's true. But it's still, it's an interesting cover for a magazine I like to read. And if sometimes I got to be that guy on the cover, you know, you never really read something that sums up the arc of your life in a sentence that sells. That you go, oh, it's not who I am. If you had a more troubled past, I mean, just imagine. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. You never really got in trouble. Well. No one found out. You got out of it easier than others. Yeah. Why do you think that is true, though? I mean, you, I mean, why does some... Why did you get in and other guys didn't in Hollywood? I mean, I know guys that, wow, I won't go into it. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's an important question, I think. And perhaps helpful to people if they understand where you were. Worst things that you did. Yeah. I guess the thing is, ultimately, it's that rungs on the ladder going up, rungs coming down, with exceptions to both. But because I think I've always had a pretty good work ethic and I also, I believe that, and Lord Attenborough told me this. Richard Attenborough. Twenty years ago, yeah. Dickie, who passed away recently, he said, you know, when you find your ambition, all this stuff will clear up. Now, it's never that simple. When you find your ambition. My ambition, yeah. So when you stop thinking about yourself as someone who's on the outside and you start really seeing what's possible for me, what could I do? How could I put these jabs together and maybe get a shot at the title? That's when he thought all this other stuff would clear away. And it wound up being something that was apropos not just for me but for, you know, for a lot of other people that he'd worked with. And do you think now that you're getting a shot at the title or you already won the title? I feel like Cassius Clay, you know, standing over the vanquished. Sonny Liston. Over Sonny Liston. Before he changed his name. That's right. He did that. He changed it right after he won. Yeah. He came the next morning. He said, I'm Muhammad Ali. Right. All right. Well, then. All right. Then I'm Muhammad Ali. No, I'm not going to make that comparison. What I'm going to say is naturally when you have a big win, there's a time of gloating. And then, not gloating, but there's that immense sense of accomplishment, you know. But that's just another kind of false thing. Like Bobby always says, it's like it's just the next moment. What's the next right thing to do? And I think that that's what's helped me transist. People tend to crash when really lousy things happen and when really great things happen. You know? You also found love. Yeah. That's right. Mama Downey helped. Yeah, Mama Downey. That's a great story. Because, I mean, in a movie, she was not in the... What was she... She was an executive, executive vice president of a firm, wasn't she? No, she... Well, what she was was she was Joel Silver, the producer's on-set producer for a movie we called Gothica and we met in Montreal. And you fell in love. Yeah. But it was only when you went back to L.A. that... Who pursued whom? Yeah. Yeah, I was chasing her down pretty hard. She is pretty... She still is. She's a very practical... She's a nice Jewish girl from the Midwest. I mean, you know, she wouldn't get tangled up with me. I know. But it's worked. Team Downey. Oh, sure. I mean, she was a huge part of, I think, the whole process with us, wasn't she? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. She's a great producer. She still is. Yeah. Really. We go out with this last scene where the two of them argue about who's more responsible for their relationship. This is our closing scene. Here it is. You say that's one of your favorite scenes. Yeah, I think that's probably my favorite scene in the movie. Because? Because we get to see Bobby is... He's his dad, but now it's a lawyer. Hank's trying to put him on trial for the past. This has nothing to do with the murder. It's about what you did to me. And he cross-examines him, and you win that case. At the end, you say you're right. And in the middle of it, he's cooperative enough, and I know that you had a ton of dialogue, to throw me a little something and give me that towel to wrap it on my hand. Much success to all of you. Got it. Thank you. Thank you, Charlie. Congratulations on the film. It's great to have all of you here. Back in a moment. Stay with us.