I Lost a Debate With an Atheist - And It Changed My Faith | Andrew Ollerton

I then had a conversation with a hostile atheist on a beach, and I said that I thought the Bible was God's Word, and he said the Bible was full of contradictions, and I said no it isn't, and he said yes it is, and I said no it isn't, and he said have you read all of it? And I had to sort of admit that I hadn't, and he said well how do you know it's not full of contradictions then? I sort of walked off, and I kind of lost the argument completely, but it provoked a bit of a sense of I really need to read the Bible. Why, you know, why am I representing the Bible when Hi Andrew. Hey Joel. I guess before we start, let's say when you try and describe who you are and what you're involved with, what is your response to that normally? Because I know you're involved in a lot of different things. Yeah, I've got lots of different hats that I wear. First and foremost, I'm a husband and a father, so married to Charlotte, we've got three children. I spend a lot of time driving them around to sports fixtures, so a lot of my life is a lot of parents are very familiar with that, but I also, when I'm not doing that, I communicate the Bible. I suppose that's the main passion I have is sharing the Bible, helping people see that. I love this little phrase that when we make sense of the Bible, the Bible makes sense of us. I really believe that, so I love seeing that. When I'm not doing that, I love the great outdoors. I love mountain climbing. I like watching rugby. I used to play rugby, not anymore, so I love exploring, love the outdoors, love adventure, that sort of thing. I work with Bible Society part-time, so I do work with them. We've developed something called the Bible Course, and we've just been filming a new edition of that, using a lot of really smart technology, virtual production studios, so they can drop me into Bible scenes, so it looks like I'm with Noah in the ark or whatever it might be, so it's really clever stuff. I got to do that for the first time, which is amazing. Sometimes I'm filming overseas where there's projects that are more in Bible land, so going to Egypt or Israel or Rome, we film quite a bit there, and Ephesus, so that's always a privilege. I've been working quite a bit with Bear Grylls recently. He's a Christian, and he's been working on some faith-based projects, especially a new book about the story of Jesus, which was kind of linked to a filming we did in Israel about Jesus, where he was skydiving into Israel and picking up snakes and all these kinds of things, and I was helping him with the theology on that. So my life is quite varied, but to be honest, as I say, it's not normally as exciting as that. I'm normally sitting by a touchline at a football match watching my son play or helping my daughter Lucy with her homework or netball or wherever it might be, so yeah. So how did you get onto this path before you encountered Christ personally? What was your view of faith in the Bible? Well, I grew up in a Christian home, so there was never a time where I wasn't aware of the Bible, I wasn't aware of the Christian faith, but obviously you kind of have a childlike faith, and that grows and changes, and I think for me, I'm so grateful actually to my parents. They kind of not only read bits of the Bible, but they also lived it. My mum would not only read the Bible, but she was kind of a walking Bible in a way, she lived it out, so I always had a basic trust that the Bible must be good. But I can remember one particular occasion when I was about eight years of age, and we were coming home over the bridge, which kind of joins England and Wales. It was a very stormy night. This is the old bridge, not the new bridge, which swings a little bit in the wind. It was a very stormy night, and it was wild, and I think I was only eight. I just honestly thought we were going to die, you know, the bridge was going to fall into the sea and we would drown, and I was very scared in that kind of childlike fear. And the next day at church, the Sunday school teacher, Aunty Sally, as we called her, she wasn't anyone's auntie, but we called her Aunty Sally, she got us memorising a verse, and the previous week it was John 3.16. And if we came that week and we knew it, we'd get a Mars bar, like a brie really, chocolate bar. And I remember speaking this verse, for God so loved the world, the most famous verse in the Bible, at least until recently, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life. And I think even aged eight, I had this kind of sort of a slightly visceral moment where I just thought, well, that's what I was afraid of. I was afraid of perishing. And if I believe in Jesus, then that won't be my fear. I won't need to be afraid of that. So I remember praying with Aunty Sally. I think I even forgot about the Mars bar. I was, for the first time, my attention was actually on the Bible, prayed with her. And so I still look back to that as kind of when I became a Christian. But of course, and I can talk about this if you want me to, but you then bump into your teenage years, all sorts of new challenges. And so it wasn't at all a sort of nice straight line graph, my growth with God has been very up and down. But that was then in my teenage years. So during your teenage years then, how did your relationship with Jesus begin to transform the way you saw yourself and the world around you from that initial experience at eight years old? Well, the point is it didn't. I think that's the problem. A gap opened up between what I'd said in making a commitment to follow Jesus and who I was with my friends. And that gap grew. And in my teenage years, I was increasingly embarrassed to be known as a Christian. What was awkward for me was my father was actually a church leader by the time I was in my teenage years. And obviously at school, you get asked what your father does or what your parents do. And I used to lie. I used to lie about what I did on a weekend. I used to lie about, I don't know what I said. I can't remember if he said he was a solicitor or something. But I've made up stories about my father, which were completely untrue, because I was so afraid. I just didn't want people to know that I was a Christian. So I lived this sort of double life, which is horrible. It's not the way anyone should live. But it's that fear of what people think of you, that fear of being found out, that fear of not being accepted. It's powerful. And I remember one particular occasion that still haunts me a little bit where I got the coach to school and back. And on one occasion, as the coach driver was dropping us off, he was obviously a Christian. And as me and my friends got off, he was giving out leaflets to a Christian event, a youth event. When my friends saw what it was as they stepped off the coach, they actually screwed it back up and threw it back on the coach at the driver and swore at him. And as I got off, I got one of the leaflets and they were in front of me and they looked at me to see what I would do. And I screwed it up and I threw it back on the coach and I swore at him. And I still can't quite believe I did that. But that's what fear is. Fear is very powerful, it dominates you. And fortunately, for various reasons, I won't go into all the detail, but I got sort of slightly separated from friends that were not good influence. And I actually remember going to church. I was always going to church through this time. I had to, but I was never listening. I never interested. And then all of a sudden I can remember sitting for the first time and actually listening to what was being said from the front, the talk. And it really spoke to me. And it was an amazing experience actually to go from thinking this was all nonsense and rubbish and I was too cool for it to hearing my father often was the one who was preaching and being completely gripped by it. And that was really a turning point. So then from that foundation, how did you get called into teaching, writing and communicating the Bible? Well, that all comes a lot later, doesn't it? You know, that was not on the horizon at all because I still had a lot of fear, but this time the fear, I was filled with the Holy Spirit after I, so when I got serious about God, I got baptized in water, to show that I was really living for Jesus now. And then I was filled with the Holy Spirit. And that really set me free from a lot of the fear of what people thought of me as a Christian. And I can remember, I studied economics at A-level and I remember one particular economics class, which kind of captures the difference where given that I was that boy, that kid that just lied and swore and did everything to avoid being identified as a Christian. When I was filled with the Holy Spirit, that so changed that I remember in this economics class, the teacher had run out of things, I think it was like the last day of term or something, he'd run out of things to do. So he just said, let's go around the class and everyone can say one thing that they'd like everyone else to know about life. And I think I was second to go and no one else got a turn because I basically said, I'd like everyone to know about Jesus. And then I remember going, eventually he told me to come up the front and I was like drawing on the whiteboard and explaining my faith. So that captures a little bit of how the fear was broken and I wanted to own my faith, but I was still really frightened of public speaking. I certainly didn't think anything about some teaching gift. It was nothing like that. But what was going on, and I think this is often the way, but long before you do anything publicly, you have to put in foundations privately. And what happened that triggered, so this is really perhaps important for me, was I then had around this sort of time, around 16, 17, I then had a conversation with a hostile atheist on a beach. And I said that I thought the Bible was God's word and he said the Bible was full of contradictions. And I said, no, it isn't. And he said, yes, it is. And I said, no, it isn't. And eventually he just said, well, have you actually read it? And he obviously sensed the hesitation because I'd read parts of the Bible. I'd not read the whole thing. And he said, have you read all of it? And I had to sort of admit that I hadn't. And he said, well, how do you know it's not full of contradictions then? It sort of walked off and I kind of lost the argument completely. But it provoked a bit of a sense of, I really need to read the Bible. Why am I representing the Bible when I've not actually read it? So I remember then every morning before the coach arrived, I'd try and get up a bit early, read a bit of the Bible, study it a little bit with a commentary. And then on the coach, I started reading the Bible instead of listening to the radio. And that was really important for me. In other words, I kind of really started getting into the Bible seriously for myself. I had no sense whatsoever at this point that I was going to be teaching other people. I just knew I needed to sort this out for me. And I think it's often the way, isn't it? And I look back and having done so many degrees and courses since, I still look back to those days when I was just grappling with it for myself. They were pretty formative. I think everyone's got to go through that. Before you teach others, you've got to teach yourself. And that was important for me. Has there been moments where the Scriptures spoke to you in a deeply personal way or a way you wouldn't have expected it in those younger years, in your later years now, or teenagers at the time? Yeah, of course. And I think sometimes that's just... I find the Scriptures often the way that God speaks to me, even prophetically. So I'll often start each year praying for a verse from the Bible that speaks to this particular year, like 2025, the year that we're in. So each year I try and do that. So I guess I wouldn't have seen that coming, but that almost gives a little bit of shape and a sense of what to expect, and something to hold on to when it's tough during the year as well. So I think there's that, there's the prophetic side of Scripture. I guess what I would never have anticipated then is how many layers Scripture has. I think one of the things that... it's like an onion, isn't it? You peel one layer off and you think you're at the centre, and then you realise, no, there's so much more to see here. So I'm still reading the same Scriptures I was reading when I was 18 or whatever, and still seeing new things in them. There's one passage that I'm speaking on a lot at the moment, where Philip meets an Ethiopian man and helps him understand the Bible, and just that one story in Acts 8 is layered. So I'm still... I mean, I don't know how many times... my kids tease me about how many times the talks I give are on that passage. I don't know how many times I've spoken on it, and I'm still seeing things I haven't seen before. So I think the Scripture is like an onion, it's layered, and you're never going to get to the bottom of that. There's always more that God's got for you in the Bible. So it's a journey, it's an adventure. I'd also say, again, like I said, it's not a straight line graph. It's not been easy for me. I definitely went through phases at university where I was reading very clever books by very clever people who were not Christians. My first degree was in geography, and I can remember feeling really challenged about the age of the earth, and is the Bible wrong, because the creation story seemed to say the earth is young and science says it's old. So that was a real crisis of faith. I can remember reading books about more postmodern philosophy and found them really... the idea that all knowledge is power, and maybe the Bible's just some of the power play to control people, religion's just there to kind of manipulate people. These things really got into me, and I had to sort of wrestle quite a lot with intellectual ideas. So you ask how the Bible speaks, often it's challenged. It's a contest in your life to believe. Do you believe God's Word, or do you believe the narrative that's popular in culture at the time? And that's not been straightforward, and I don't think it's meant to be. But what I can say is God's Word keeps winning. It keeps winning the argument. You've just got to give it time, and you realise that... I just saw another article in the Sunday Times newspaper today just saying, actually, for all of the arguments that really troubled me when I was doing my geography degree, about maybe science has disproved the Bible. This latest argument in the Times newspaper was just actually saying, scientists are increasingly realising that the creation idea is the only way to make sense of what they're finding. So you just think, you've just got to give it time, and the Bible wins every time. In terms of the power of testimony, have there been any big testimonies you've witnessed personally or heard around you that has also really strengthened your faith? Testimonies I've heard from others? Yeah, I think sometimes that'll be stories, I think, from the suffering, persecuted church. I find those really moving. It's often stories from the global South, from outside of my context. I think of one good friend, actually, someone I support a little bit, who is in a North African country, and he and his wife, in the daytime, they run a printing press, printing magazines and books, but at night time, secretly, they're printing Bibles in Arabic. They're risking themselves every night to do that. It's often those kinds of testimonies. I remember hearing a testimony from a lady who'd escaped from North Korea and just been facing unbelievable pressure there, or another friend from Nigeria who's just talking about how difficult it is for the Christians there right now. You just think, those are the stories that, I guess, they put our lives into perspective. We have it so easy, and it's easy to become complacent, casual, apathetic. But there's not much apathy in North Africa if you're a Christian. There's not much apathy in North Korea if you're a Christian. It's like, this counts, and this is serious. I think some of those stories are really powerful. I think the other stories that have really challenged me are stories of healings and miracles as well. I've seen one or two of those up close and personal. I think they do challenge the kind of skeptic in you. I think if you spend too much time in the universities, as I have, you're almost trained to assume that any supernatural thing must be a hoax, must be the placebo effect or whatever. Actually, those stories have really just helped me to realise, no, that's just arrogance. That's just the kind of elitist arrogance of Western culture. Actually, stories of miracles, God's power at work, they help me a lot. As someone who's put so much time into studying the Bible, do you have a set of advice for people who are new to it, the way you recommend them to start with the Bible, how to engage with it? Yeah, I do, and then it never works. I just think that everyone's unique, and God keeps surprising all of the best advice that you give. I often say to people, don't start at the beginning, start at the centre. I think the Bible has a beginning, Genesis, but it has a centre, Jesus. I often say, start with Jesus, but how many times recently have I met young men, especially, who started at the beginning because they didn't know that advice, and God has spoken to them through Genesis, through the Old Testament. I think, in a sense, the Bible can't be managed, and there's no point even trying. It's got a life of its own and a power of its own. But nevertheless, I think, what would I say? I'd say, start at the centre. Work out from Jesus because he is the centre, and I think one of the best ways to trust the rest of the Bible is to learn to trust Jesus and then realise that he trusted the rest of the Bible. He had confidence in the Old Testament, even if we struggle with it. So, start with Jesus, start at the centre. I think the other bit of advice is, don't do it on your own. I think the Bible is there to be understood in community, not in isolation. I think as soon as you're able, get into conversation with people, read the Bible together, talk about it in community. Obviously, I've had the privilege of growing up in a family where that was normal. Many people don't. So, you have to then use the church family. The church is now your family. Well, let that be the setting in which you don't feel alone with the Bible. So, I think, yeah, start with Jesus and work out from there and do it together. So, with all of your studying and life experience, who is Jesus to you? Who is Jesus to me? You know, I mean, that question is a bit flawed, isn't it? Because it doesn't matter who he is to me. He's who he is. I know what you mean, but I suppose in the end, he is the risen Lord. I think the resurrection of Jesus is the absolute... I'm talking about starting at the centre. The centre really is the resurrection. Because if the bones of Jesus are still rotting in Jerusalem, then there is nothing in Christianity. It is a hoax. But if he rose again, then it's everything. It's either nothing or everything. It's as black and white as that. So, I think for me, Jesus is the risen Lord. The resurrection has begun God's new creation that he promised. It's fulfilled the prophets that go all the way back. It's fulfilled the promises that God made to Abraham. So, he is the Messiah. He's Israel's Messiah. He's the saviour of the world. He's the risen Lord. I think today that hasn't changed. That's as true as it was on the morning that he rose again. If he rose again, he has a claim on all of us. As Paul puts it in Romans, he's been declared with power to be son of God through his resurrection from the dead. So, the risen Lord. I think nothing less than that. What would you say to anyone struggling to build a relationship with Jesus? I'd encourage them that we all struggle. I don't think they're unique and they probably feel that way. If you come to church sometimes and you see people worshipping and celebrating, it can feel like I'm the only one in the room who doesn't get this, I'm the only one in the room who's not living this day-to-day. So, on the one hand, don't be surprised. On the other hand, don't settle for it. It doesn't need to be that way. If life is difficult, that doesn't mean that your faith is not working. So, don't misinterpret the difficulties of life. Don't try and read from your circumstances the truth, because the truth transcends your circumstances. If God loves you and your circumstances are difficult, those two things don't contradict each other. So, I think what I'd be saying to them is, if you feel far from Jesus, don't settle for that. It might be that he's just pulled away a little bit in order to get you to come to him again, almost building your trust and building your faith in that sense. But don't settle for it, because God actually wants us to be close to him. He wants us to know him personally. He's given us his Holy Spirit. He's given us his words. So, I guess what I'd be saying is, don't be surprised. Don't settle for it. And have you neglected something? Often, as a pastor, I've found that people will say, I just don't feel close to God. And then you ask them, well, are you reading the Bible? No. Are you regularly at church? No. Other things are more important. Are you praying? No, not really. Are you reading good books? Are you worshipping the Lord? Are you fasting? Are you giving? All these little things, they're not the way that we earn God's presence, not at all. But they are what theologians call the means of grace. They're channels through which God comes close to us. So, don't be surprised. Don't settle for it. And just make sure there's nothing that's broken, nothing missing, nothing that you're neglecting. I'm not sure if I phrased this right, but do you think it's important to have testimonies from people who haven't hit rock bottom and still put their trust in Jesus, like yourself? Because I think those types of testimonies are really powerful and often take a lot of the limelight. But is it important for other people to see it's not just for people who have hit rock bottom? Yeah, well, we do all benefit from hearing a story of someone who had gone completely, their life had been completely broken or right on the edge. But as you say, that's not the average person, I guess. And so, maybe it's not helpful to talk about averages, but that's not everyone's story. A lot of people will have had an opportunity to live. I think about the difference between myself and so many people I've helped who have had real rock bottom experiences. Actually, it's not because I'm better than anyone else, not at all. It's just I've had opportunities. It comes down to the environment that you've grown up in so often. And I'm so fortunate to have a father and a mother who love me and who were together when I was young. These are unusual things today. And I guess, yeah, whilst there's part of me that would love to have a radical, wild story, another part of me is so glad I don't. Because in those experiences that I was privileged to have, I've avoided a lot of pain and I've been given a lot of opportunity. And I think it's about whether you then use that for God and for his glory. So I think we need both kinds of stories. In the end, we just need people to be honest. The worst thing we can do is try and pretend we're something we're not. And honesty and transparency is key. Amazing. And lastly, what is your favourite Bible verse and what does it mean to you? I find that hard, actually. Often my favourite part of the Bible is, people sometimes say, what's your favourite mountain? Because I love mountain climbing. And I often just say the one I'm on at the moment, whichever one I'm climbing, I love it. And so in the Bible, it's similar. But one certainly that's spoken to me a lot, this is from Romans 15, verse four, where Paul says that whatever was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the scriptures, we might have hope. And the reason this is a favourite verse for me is that what Paul is saying is whatever was written in the past, talking about the scriptures, the Old Testament in his time, all of it, he says, whatever was written in the past, all of it was given so that might have endurance and encouragement and hope. And I think this is what I really believe about the Bible is that every single part of it has been given by God for our benefit, and we shouldn't neglect any of it. It's for our endurance, encouragement and hope. And sometimes people feel the Bible is some kind of academic book or something for clever people. But I really feel, like I said earlier, when we make sense of the Bible, the Bible makes sense of us, you know, when we read it, it reads us and it shows us who we are and what we need. And who doesn't need encouragement, endurance and hope? And I can only say for myself, you know, having faced some challenges over the years, like many people have, whether it's bereavement or redundancy or hardships of different kind, God's word has given me endurance, encouragement and hope. So that's one of my favourite verses. Amazing. And before you go, if you're comfortable, would you be saying a prayer for anyone watching right now who doesn't yet have a relationship with Jesus, but would want to? Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Let's pray together. Yeah. Heavenly Father, thank you that you're not far away from us. You're not the other side of the moon, remote. In Jesus, you've come to this world to rescue and save us. And by the Holy Spirit, you are knocking on the door of our hearts. And so I pray for anyone listening today who is wanting to know you. I pray that they would realise that the handle to the door of their heart is on the inside. You're not going to break that door down, but you are knocking and they get to open the door and let you in. May they do that through a simple prayer. Thank you that we can pray to you without being complicated or religious. We can just pray in a simple way. So may they invite you in, Lord Jesus, and know that you will transform their life when you come in. In Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. You're welcome. If you prayed this prayer, we rejoice with you and welcome you into the family of God. Please scan the QR code on the screen or click the link in the description box below to fill out a short form so we can connect with you and support you on your faith journey. Be sure to share this testimony video with your family and friends and subscribe to the channel to stay updated. Thank you for watching and God bless you.