Darren Aronofsky & Austin Butler Have an Epic Conversation

You on your cell phone is like Joe Biden on a cell phone. Tell me more. You just have no clue. You're like, oh. You're like, why? I'm like an 85-year-old. You're so not into cell phones. You remember the first night we hung out, we went bar hopping. That was our very first time hanging out. That was our first time hanging out. You had a hat on. I had what on? You had your furry hat on. Oh, was it winter? Yeah. You had the fur hat. I just remember being more recognizable in the East Village than you were. That's how you remember? Do you remember we went into that bar and it was like, no, I guess not. I like the selective memory. No, you're very recognizable in the East Village. How do you approach a role when it first shows up and you finally commit to doing something? How do you start off? I mean, at first, I always feel that I know nothing. I always feel that I'm... It's like when I haven't gone camping in a while and I go, wait, how do you start a campfire? And you're trying to put either... I tried that version and then you try a lighter or you try other things. It's going to be interesting to talk about your process and I'm curious with your evolution because I think where I am still is in that place of like, how do I start the fire? And approaching it with this feeling of I'm just beginning. The first part is almost like the sponge that I'm just trying to open up and just soak in everything that I possibly can. And it's usually just reading the script over and over and over and over. That's good. The very first time I read the script is the last time that I'll be innocent. And so that's the time that I try to block everything else out. But you've already read it once because you decided to do the movie. Well, I mean, if that's what we're talking about, but I feel like the process starts as soon as I get that script. But once I decided to do it and now I've read it a number of times. Oh, so you have read it. Okay. And then I'll just start writing questions, a lot of questions in the sides and then just figuring out. Why does the character do this? Or what is this all about? Yeah, why? Or it'll be, there will be things that feel that they're far from me and then it's figuring out where am I lying to myself and actually it's very close to me? What part of me do I have inside that I'm kind of pushing away that maybe I haven't explored in my day to day life that now I can explore through this moment? Or how can I turn up the volume of something that I've turned down the volume of in the rest of my life? Yeah. That sort of thing. Interesting. Now for you, something that we spoke about a lot in the beginning and I've admired in and really tried to absorb as much as possible is how you have this real faith in the process and a confidence that you will figure it out. Yeah. And is that something that you had? No, no, that comes with experience. I still get terror in the morning. You do? At times. When I look at what we got to get done that day and that starts to dissipate like an hour or two into the day when we start getting the first wide shot or we figure out the first blocking and we get the camera going and then you start chipping away and you realize how incredible the crew is that you have with you that they can accomplish anything and you just start seeing yourself accomplish it and then you're like, oh wow, it's actually moving. When you have a wall of work at the first day and you're like, how are we ever going to get through this? I still feel that even with the confidence that I know we'll get through it. I'm not sure that ever goes away. Yeah, but I think that's good. I think a person without doubts is a person without wisdom and I think that that's like you got to keep doubting yourself because then it makes you work harder. And if you go in too relaxed then it just starts, I think the work suffers. It's an interesting tightrope, that one, because I remember you telling me at certain points about... Well, but not working that hard. I will work. Yeah, but that, yeah. And there's a... You see, my advice might not be helpful for you because I'm like totally fine procrastinating and wasting time. Because I do think that's part of it is actually... To let your brain rest. Because I think if you're really focused and really working on it, the brain's constantly processing it when you're sleeping, of course, but also even when you're watching a rerun of Breaking Bad, the stuff that's happening. I mean, that's why it's good also when you're working on something to be watching some good content, because seeing another filmmaker break down something often can loosen up something in your own head. Yeah, totally. Or a great actor approaching an emotion in a certain way, because you're never really stealing anything, but there's totally being inspired by other great artists. I mean, I do it all the time. Very early in the process, when we're just starting, I hit all the museums and see as much art as I can and be consuming as much music and all other types of forms of stuff, because that stuff kind of seeps in and helps inspire. What films did you find while we were making this that have resonated most with you? It was tricky because there was nothing that was directly related. Normally, we do a lot of screenings with the crew, and I don't think we did any on this one because- No, you and I talked about films. We talked a little bit, but I think the thing I was most interested in was the genre of film which has kind of disappeared, which is a normal guy and ---- hits the fan. I think there's a long tradition of that starting even with Hitchcock, but there isn't that much of that genre because usually now it's like normal guy or you think it's a normal guy, ---- hits the fan, and it turns out he knows Kung Fu, and he knows how to load a gun in three seconds, and it turns out he was special ops in Afghanistan for 35 years or whatever. So we see that character a lot, which is not that different than a superhero ultimately in disguise until Clark Kent puts on his uniform. But I was interested, and I've always been interested in normal people under extreme circumstances, and that's why I liked Hank Thompson in Caught Stealing is he's a pretty good guy that's a little messed up because of his past, but he's generally a positive creature moving through the world, not causing much damage to anyone but himself, and then when all the stuff goes wrong, he has to kind of navigate, deal with it. He has a few special abilities because he was a really good baseball player in high school, so he's athletic, but he doesn't know how to throw a punch really. So that to me was fun, like how do we make that guy an all-American hero? Because I do think that's really relatable where it's not like, oh, because I think it gets into the fantasy of like, oh wow, I know how to put a gun together and I can actually shoot versus like, I don't even know how to hold a gun. How'd you go about recreating New York City? Yeah, you're not. Oh, is that question for me? That's for you. How did you go about? You had to put that hair in to recreate New York. Put my hair? You gotta give yourself 90s hair. Give the 90s hair, that's important. That was a big one. That was. We spent a lot of time talking about your hair in this movie and looking at photos. Because it was a different world, even your facial hair, all that stuff. It was like a big discussion. Yeah, and then the city itself. The city was like all about, luckily you surround yourself with people that do this for a living. So like Mark Freberg, our production designer, who also lived the 90s in New York, just dug deep. And it turns out there's a lot of photographs and VHS tapes of stuff. And when we went out to Coney Island and we had to recreate Coney Island, because things had changed in Coney Island, even though very little, but things had changed. I was like, oh, where are we going to get footage? And it turns out the rooftop scene in Requiem for a Dream was one of the best references. Is that right? Yeah, so my VFX team was like, well, this is the best kind of footage of, because it was 98, it was 99 when we shot it. So they were like, oh, this is exactly what we need. Because there's that shot of Nathan's hot dogs. And it's changed a lot, actually, because, well, the artwork now says over 100 years, but back then it was like 80 years. So we had to see what the artwork was and how much you could see. There was no stadium back then. So we actually used that. Luckily, the 90s is far away, but not that far away. There is a lot of footage. But it was more in an aesthetic thing. And I was thinking about this last night. It was kind of starting this kind of gentrification move that started early 90s. New York was really rough. And then Giuliani came in with kind of this police state in the mid-90s where there was a lot of police abuse. And New York became very controversial. And Giuliani was really controversial at the time. Not as controversial now, but he was. But there was still this big grit that was hanging in New York, and especially the East Village. So it was kind of fun to rediscover that and think about that again. So you grew up Coney Island? Yeah, out by there. Where was it exactly? It's called Manhattan Beach. Manhattan Beach. And then when you moved into the city, did you move straight to the East Village? Nope. I moved to Hell's Kitchen, which is in the 40s. I was on 47th and 10th. Surrounded by crazy neighbors. I had a fifth-floor walk-up. Fifth-floor walk-up. You had your leg workout cut off. And all the neighbors actually got to know each other. We're actually still in touch. We're still in a WhatsApp group. And this is, I don't know, it's 20, 30 years ago. So we're all still in touch. And there were crazy neighbors. Behind each door was a whole world. And that's kind of what... One of the reasons I was attracted to doing this movie is because your next-door neighbor is an over-the-hill guy with a mohawk. And that's where we shot Pie out of. Actually, we shot scenes of Pie in that building. The bodega where we did a chase scene was the bodega down where I would get my Gatorade or whatever I'd be drinking back then. At that point, you'd already gone to AFI. Yeah, so I went to AFI in 92, 93. So you go out to LA for a little bit. Yep. 92, 93. Yeah, I went to college. And in college, I started making films. And then I had this one professor who was like, if you really want to keep going down this road, check out the AFI. I got in. I drove a car across the country. Drove across. Yeah. What kind of car did you drive across? I drove my grandfather's Toyota Camry. Wow. That's the car my mom drove when I was growing up. It was a great car. Solid. It had a sunroof, which was like big back then. So I drove all across by myself. Stopped in Vegas. Yeah. Put a chip on roulette and won like 30 bucks. And there was this great vintage shop called Valentino's Zoot Suit. And I used to hit all the vintage shops along the way. That was where I bought my first Stetson straw hat. That's where the whole straw hat thing started. That's where it started. Went out to LA and was out there for two, two and a half years. OK. And I met Matty Libatique on the first day. I met my producer who produced my first three films, Eric Watts, on the third day. And we all worked together on a film called Protozoa, which became my company. That becomes a company. But nothing really happened for me in LA. It was tough. It was really hard. Yeah. So eventually, I kind of limped back to New York and started to build through the 90s, living on falafel and pizza and side jobs. I would shoot industrials for like Exxon teaching people how to pump gas. Industrials are educational videos or something? They were within companies. They weren't even commercials. OK. I mean, I did nothing. I did whatever I could to survive. And then eventually, I was like, OK, what can I make for no money? And that's like 1996, 97, trying to put together Pi. Yeah. I love that. I get to learn new things about you. So what does the 90s mean to you? What does the 90s mean to me? So when this movie takes place, I was seven. Right. And what were you? So you were what, 28? You were seven in this movie, 98. So you were 28? I guess I was, yeah, I was like 28. So I was younger than you play in the movie, which is interesting. Because in the movie, you play your age, 33. So yeah, you would have been a bit older than me, which is interesting, because I think there is a bit of a generation difference. Because my generation, we grew up totally native to video games and computers. But my sister's generation, which would be more your age, were just a little bit before that. She's two years older? Two and a half years older. So even older than that, you would have been than me. You'd be five years older, which is kind of like the tale of Baby Boomers, almost, which is weird. Wow, yeah. Even though that's not the character you're playing is definitely kind of Gen X, isn't it? You know all these generations much better than I do. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's... What do you think of it? Like, let's actually, I'm curious. Break it down, yeah, yeah. Because I actually want to learn about this. So when you break down generations, the difference between a millennial and Gen Z, why do you think that people break that down into categories? And what do you think the purpose is of that? And what do you identify as the differences? I don't know where it comes from. I'm sure they're all marketing terms, right? They're about selling things to people, probably. I think that's probably originally where it came from. But Gen X, definitely, I remember it was that book by... ****, I can't remember the name of that. There was... Well, first, Linklater made Slacker, which I think was kind of the first term that kind of almost stuck to my generation. Because they were trying to define us, what we were, when I was in my early 20s. And Slacker came out, and I was like, oh, that's what a lot of people called us for a while. And then there was a book named Gen X by... I can't... Does anyone remember? Yeah, Douglas Copeland, thank you. So Douglas Copeland, and that became... It was a book, it was like green cover, I can see it, and it was everywhere. And then we became Gen X. And that's kind of where the Gen thing started, I think, with him. And I think it was kind of this... I saw it as a Slacker thing, like we were missing direction. I don't think we're perceived that way anymore. I think what's interesting about Gen X is just culturally how big Gen X has gone. Like musically, how big it was. Because I guess, so much of the birth of hip-hop, of course, Nirvana and Foo Fighters and all that. And then Tupac and Biggie, they're all kind of that. Prince is arguably Gen X. I like this new generation, which they're calling Gen A, but I think they should be called Gen AI, is what they should call them. Because they're going to be fully, fully native with AI. So that'll be interesting. So is a kid born right now... Gen AI. Gen A. Gen AI. It's coined right now, yeah, according to me there. Yeah, I think so, yeah. Or even the last few years. They will grow up with AI in their pocket. Well, I mean, everyone is now. Everyone's got their AI in their pocket. It's changing everything. Which is like going back to our world of the 90s. That's the most interesting stuff. Because the landscape physically hasn't changed. But definitely the way people are interacting with the world has changed in a lot of ways. I don't know what this story of Hank Thompson would have been present day, but there's just a lot of miscommunication in the film that probably would have been figured out without it. Much faster. Just even having to call somebody's answering machine. Or get in touch with your mom, which is a big part of it. Yeah, yeah. You know, you'd be texting your mom about it. Yeah, exactly. It's like people disappearing for a few days doesn't really happen anymore, does it? No, that's very concerning now. Find my iPhone. Yeah, completely. Even Instagram is tracking your location. That's new, right? I believe so. I heard that. You got to turn it off. That's what I was told. I mean, we must have talked a bit about the 90s and stuff. Were there any things that stuck in your head that we had to translate for you? I think it was some things that I was trying to figure out logic of certain things. Like, who would I have their number memorized? Right. And who do I need to have a piece of paper in my pocket to have that number? Right. That sort of thing. When you call somebody, how long do you wait before you expect to hear a response back? A lot of it was like, what do I expect? What are my expectations in moments? Yeah, that was interesting. There were a lot of those types of things that have changed in a lot of ways about how do you communicate with people and stuff. Even just an answering machine, how it works and the timing. How long after I press the button do I have to wait to say my line or hear something? And when you get home, what's your routine when you get home? Do you walk in and press the answering machine and take your shoes off? What's your day-to-day routine? I just thought of episodes of Seinfeld. See how people acted? Yeah, pressing the answering machine. It's interesting how much has changed. You start to realize how much actually has changed in very, very subtle ways. And I even think the way people acted around each other was different as well. It was interesting, even working with the extras, is trying to give them a sense of what it was like in a bar. First, you could smoke in a bar. And actually, bars would just be flooded with smoke. That was just your life. And just what a landscape is without cell phones. It's just interesting and weird and different as compared. I mean, when we were at the Bad Bunny concert the other day, you just look out and it was just a sea of cell phones. It was so surreal. How distant. And I'm curious, do you feel like... Well, you're not someone who's on a cell phone all the time, but even the people who are just holding it right here, are they actually in the moment or are they less in the moment? But have they gotten so good at just holding it here that they're kind of still in the moment? Because I don't think they're actually studying anymore. When I shoot a cell phone, I'm looking at the image, I guess, because I'm a director and I'm making sure the frame's right. Yeah, I want the frame. But a lot of people are just like, they don't really seem to care. They just want to represent that they were there or something. I wonder if it's sort of like when you learn to drive a stick in a car and at first you've got to really be conscious about it. And then eventually it's gone. Second nature. I mean, maybe it's so second nature for people. I felt that when we were at that concert the other day, because I took my phone out. I wanted to capture the moment. Yeah, but you on your cell phone is like Joe Biden on a cell phone. Tell me more. You just have no clue. You're like, oh, you're like, why? I'm like an 85-year-old. You're so not into cell phones. I'm like, dude, do not be creating content. You just need someone following you around that's nearby. You creating the content and then make believe it's you. Because I like to be cinematic as well. Because you think you're like, but you look like you literally look 84. It's not for you. I'll take it. It's not exactly. It's not you're like, I was like, oh, jeez. Because I know everyone's been pushing us to create content. I'm like, that guy should not be creating content. He should just be reposting. That's really what should be happening. Sorry. It's true. It's not your thing, which is great. It's not my thing. That's great. Every time it makes me feel a barrier between what I'm experiencing. Which it is. Unless you learn how to drive a stick. It hasn't become second nature to me. I like the GoPros where you can't see where the stick is, but it's outside, you know. Well, because it erases it, you mean? Yeah. When people are skydiving or something. It's funny, the guys who invented the Snorricam. Yeah. Which started all that. The camera attached to the body. That thing we did in Pi and Requiem. Somehow they finally went to market with one. And it does like the AI erases that thing. So you could get that shot. That is just so much easier. I never wore one of those. Yeah, we'd put it on you. Is it a full-size camera that we're talking about? And you're shooting on film. So then you've got a film camera. Yeah, when we shot in Pi, it was just a Bolex attached to it. In Requiem, we attached an IMO, which is a 35mm thing, camera. And it was a much bigger rig with Alan Burstyn and stuff. I thought about the way certain directors repeat shots, that it could become my signature shot. But it just didn't fit in the fountain, because the fountain was so designed. And then I just sort of was like, I don't know. It gets gimmicky to a certain extent, unless you have a real reason. We did talk about when you did the wake-ups in this, to potentially do that and bring it back. Because we were making a film that was back in 98. Yeah, but ultimately, that shot's very self-conscious of it. And I think I've somewhat outgrown the self-conscious shots in trying to do a different type of thing. You're evolving. You're maturing. Well, I think it's weird to... We had a lot of conversations, me and Matty, about bringing in some of the shots from the 90s, if we wanted to do that. And we played with it for a while. But then we realized the grammar of this movie is not that. And I'm really happy with the film and how it's shot. It's really like there's a precision to where the camera is, which I think is just like... It's fun to chase that, because that's always been my goal, is to make a very cohesive film. And this film does hold together in that way. There's one or two shots that don't. And it's in the one scene that you're not in. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, I wasn't there. Yeah, you weren't there that day, so it messed it up. Yeah, it's interesting when you make those choices. I remember when we were starting and thinking, is it going to be a handheld film? Is it going to be... Because being such a fan of yours, I was looking at scenes from Requiem and thinking, there's the Requiem version of this movie. There's the Wrestler version, where it's just these handheld shots. Which version is it, though? What is it? Which version did we end up with? This movie, yeah. I think it's a whole new thing for you. It is a new thing, yeah. It is a new thing. Yeah, you didn't rest on any laurels. Yeah, we just tried to do a new film. You tried to do a new thing, which is also when I watch films like After Hours. And even the... Oh, there's some great shots in After Hours. I mean, some amazing shots that I don't even know... Even in the office, we're just doing that spinning around shot. Yeah, early Steadicam. I've read about that shot. Was it Steadicam? I think it's early Steadicam. Okay, okay. Because it's so smooth. I don't remember. There's something about that shot that's really... I thought it was from Dolly. There's something really interesting about that shot that I forgot. We'll look it up after this. There was something about it, but I think it's early Steadicam. That's what that is. It feels so smooth. To the point where I didn't know if they were moving desks out of the way. I'm sure he was, yeah. Let's get Marty on speed dial. Anybody got Marty's number? You got Marty's number?