The Magic WafflePod #2: Bankable, ADHD and the Art of Framing a Moment

Hi, Toby here, just before the podcast begins of episode two of the Waffle Pod. I'm just going to let you know that it ends quite abruptly at the end. Basically, there's no outgoing, no final words or anything. We're just cut off mid-sentence. It's because we stopped recording and we forgot to click start recording. So sorry about that, but you've got most of what you need, really. It was only like a final five minutes. Anyway, on with the pod. All right, well, there you go. A bit of faffing, we're recording. I've just listened to your voice message. Well, it was quite funny because you just edited me a review. And I said to you, is it me or is that performance in that review ----? And you kind of got back to me and went, yeah, a bit. Which I'm really glad you did. I really am glad you did. It means it's all going to work very well. Yeah, it was. It was one of them where I'm like, especially the coin thing. I was like, oh, I don't know what to do with this coin thing. Yeah, I know. I know. Well, I think the coin thing's all right because it's not very interesting for people. But maybe it is that it's just the wrong camera angle. But she just responded to it. So I reckon that's all right. But it's just a stage routine. I think that's the thing, though. It shows that it works, doesn't it? It's really difficult to fool the camera, which we know. And it just shows that it works in the real world, really, because the attention is not where we know it is. So maybe that's an example of it. So you're Toby in Canada. Now, I know I do this every time and it's so annoying. It is like that comedy thing, isn't it? What time is it there? What time is it there in Canada? Because I should know. 25 past 10 in the morning this time compared to last time, which was in the evening. Right. And you look knackered. So I was thinking, is it like five in the morning? But then I remembered that we were messing with each other and you were going down a rabbit hole of things that you shouldn't. And what time was that? So that was, I think, four o'clock in the morning. No! Yeah, three, four o'clock. And then I just couldn't get to sleep. I was just in bed, just whirling with ideas and stuff like that. I think last time I checked, it was like half six, seven o'clock before I kind of dozed off. So probably going to have a nap after this. How old are you? Yeah, 31. Yeah. I mean, at least you're not past 40. You're fucked, basically. If you're my age, you know, like if I reckon if I go to bed after, if I'm being totally honest, after about half 12, because I get up early. If I have like four hours, I'm pretty fucked. Things just don't work in my head. So you've had like nothing. I've always been like a late night person, though. I'll happily stay up late and work. That's when I prefer to do it. Firstly, the early mornings, you mess with me so early in the morning, I'm like, how are you doing that? I can't get enough of them types. But yeah, just sleeping in general, I'm just ---- at. That's when I think about things and ideas. And yeah, I know it's ADHD, but you don't know through ADHD. No, I'm trying to get a diagnosis for it, though, because somebody said to me like a bit back was like, you need a test, well, a few people. And then somebody was like, I think you need a test. I was like, hmm. And then the more I've been over here, the more like a few people have said it more to me and being like. And I'm like, no, not yet. Why? So, yeah, it's a funny one, isn't it? Because a lot of people said, well, why do you need it? It's just a label and stuff like that. And I think it helped me. And I think you kind of know by the time you get it done, you got to be careful because you kind of know you have got it or not. If you like me and you start reading up and stuff. I had a therapist that basically said to me like, well, I had two actually that was like two separate ones were basically like, can we do a test today? I'm like, all right, OK, what's this? And then at the end of it, she's like, I think an ADHD test. And I thought, all right, thanks. So, yeah, but it's one of them where I don't know what the benefit would be. Like, are you on the medication of it? I don't know. And I've thought about that, but my friend, she's been diagnosed recently and she's just been on the medication. And to start off with, it really messed her up a little bit. But I think that's just with any medication. Yeah, it can happen if you've got to take it long term. Yeah, I think it's just titration, isn't it? Because there's two, well, there's three different main kinds. There's two main kinds, the amphetamine based one and the sort of what is basically Ritalin, which is a brand name, but you know, methylphenidate. And depending on how you respond to it. So most people are on the sort of, what's it called? However, I've responded really badly to that. So with the methylphenidate, I'm totally fine. And I think, but also I think people take a very sort of pro or against thing with it. And I think it's just like, it's such a personal thing. Yeah. You don't want to change your personality and stuff like that. But it didn't with me, so that's all right. Yeah, I feel like I've got worse since I've been out here. And I think it's just, I don't know what it is. Just, yeah, spiral out of it. I think it's because I'm, yeah, there's not as much, there's not many people around for me and everything. So I think I'm just like more in my own head of stuff. Yeah, I've been more lax with things and I'm just like, oh, ----, I've got to do this today. But I also think it's well, it's like, I talked to quite a number of magicians. I'm sure like every magician's got it at some point, like at some somewhere in them, they've got something. They're that and they're a little bit acoustic out there. So, yeah. Well, I think, yeah, because of course, and this is where people say things like, oh, it seems like everybody's got it. And that's, it's almost like your Facebook algorithm, right? It's like, you tend to flock together, you know, with people that are like you. So things like magic and very kind of insular, potentially insular things. I'm not saying there's not great community around it, but the learning of it and all that will draw a sort of more neurodivergent person. Sometimes it's a big generalisation. And it's like street performers, you know, when I was street performing, it's like, could I, you know, everybody's, these aren't normal people. They were for me for 20 years. And then when I came back into the real world, I always had non-performer friends, but it's, if we're not careful, we judge what's going on in our own kind of algorithm, don't we? And I think that's why. Yeah. And I think the more like I'm trying to work on this show, the more it's proved to me as well, because like, just trying to focus and sit down on like one trick or one routine. And then like, oh, it's that thing of, you get the initial spark of it all, you find a little idea, then you go back to it and then you jump to something else. And I'm like, as much as I try and stay focused, as you've seen with my whiteboard, like picking one thing at a time, I'm still like jumping back and forth between other ideas. Yeah. Oh, mate. So, and I think this is, I think people might think, why are you talking about this? I think it's important because every time I do talk about it, I get so many messages saying, I'm so glad you talked about it. And so I think it's, if people are going, well, it's not about that. I think if you struggle with things, like you said, there is a spectrum. I don't mean necessarily the autistic spectrum, but there is a spectrum of things that many people find difficult. And I think that because of what's happening with our attention at the moment, whether you're diagnosed or not, got it not, there are more people struggling with focus because our attention is being drawn. Yeah. I think the world is just that, isn't it really? You know, you look at social media and everything. If you've ever seen that, the social dilemma documentary, like that, I think that just proves it as well. Like before I didn't think too much of it when I went back in England and then like somebody said it to me and then I had like a few therapists, as I said, say it and then a few other people. And then over here, like, I feel like it's just become more apparent, like people telling me and then just in myself as well, just noticing it. Yeah. And then just like talking to you as well. I'm like, yeah, I think that's why we're just like, oh, ****. We're off again. We've got a new morning. It's like, oh, here we go again. It's when you said it was like, I'm trying to say I'm in Dropbox and I knew it was late. I didn't know it was four o'clock. And I was like, yeah, I know. It's like, you know, you know, you could leave it till tomorrow. But it's like, yeah. And you ******* this is the thing that I find the hardest about it. So I know when I'm in my element and I'm kind of functioning well, I can be really good at certain things like the time when I'm on it with reviews and magic and performing. But when I'm not doing right, I think performing stuff always works. I'm not saying I turn up if I'm all over the place, but to get into that zone when I don't have to. All right. So when you're doing a gig, it's different. Or if someone says it's a meeting or an interview, that's fine. I might struggle before it, but it always happens. But it's that thing of trying to organize your own time around your own schedule and your own timetable when there's nobody saying to you, be here at this time. Yeah, that I'm fucked. I need a deadline. Like if I don't have deadlines and stuff, I'm just as I said to you, I'm like, you need to give me a deadline. Otherwise, I'll just and it's the same with a unit. Like me and my friend was so bad with it. We would like it be due that day, like, you know, 9 a.m. and the night before we leave everything to it. And then we'd hand it in and we'd then sleep that day. And we'd be like, oh, we can't do that again. And then roll on to the next assignment every time. Yeah. And it's like, but yeah, I think that's just the way I worked with pressure. And that's why I have to do. And I think that's why with the show, especially, it's difficult because there isn't a deadline. And as much as I've tried to give myself deadlines, I'm also kind of like, yeah, but I also don't want to rush it because I want this to be what I want it to like. Yeah. You want it to be something good. And if it's rushed together, but then also it can take years. But it's going to be anyway. It's going to be anyway. That's the thing. Like, yeah, I started this out. This original idea was like 2013 or something. I didn't start working on them, but I had the idea inside. And I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm happier more with the direction the show's gone now than it was then. Because before it was like really wankery. And I'm like, oh, whereas I look at it now. I'm like, no, this is something that I want to create. But then you just kind of, well, how long is this going to take? Because we've been at it for so long. Come on, deadline, Tobias. Yeah, I think that's why. And I think it can be what my magic clubs can be so helpful because I didn't have that really when I was learning. And it's fine because I was just learning for the sake of learning at the beginning. But I think that that thing of, OK, this week we're doing this. So you sort of get a trick together to show. And a social, if people haven't got a magic club, I think a social kind of thing of, OK, meet up and we show each other, you know, this trick we've been working on. My big, I had a proper sort of meltdown today because I get into that sort of shame of it. OK, so when I was on it yesterday and I got a lot done yesterday and I did live review. And my big thing at the moment is being overwhelmed by reviews and family stuff and all kind of having too much of a pile of everything. So yesterday I thought, right, I'm actually getting there now. No, I don't mean I'm nearly finished, but I'm starting. I've started that ball rolling. And then today, the first couple of hours was good. I was learning that Alakazam Imagine trick and I was like, well, I've learned it properly. Now I can talk about it. And then something happened and that's boring. But for two hours, I was totally two or three hours kind of paralyzed. And that, I think, is the frustrating thing. I'm there and I'm ready to do it. And it's not laziness, but my brain can't click into the thing. I just get that paralyzed, that overwhelmed thing. And there's a weird thing because part of you knows what you've got to do, but there's this kind of barrier. And I'll sometimes literally walk towards the task. Like I'll literally walk towards the deck of cards and then something will just, I'll just find myself in the kitchen half an hour later. That's it, like last week I made custard and then I got distracted halfway through making it. Forgot about it, went back to it. I think it was like four or five hours later. It was all lumpy. I'm like, oh, well, that's ----, isn't it? Like, I'm me custard now. And it's just, yeah, I'm just like... But then I make, like I need to have lists and I'm really prone to like writing lists down or something. But I just do it to myself. I don't know if you do, but like I overwhelm myself. Because I'll write a list. I'll be like, oh, this, this, this, this, this, this. And I end up making like a massive long list. I'm like, oh, then I get overwhelmed by it. Then I'm like, oh, I don't know where to start. I'll start it in 10 minutes. And then obviously that 10 minutes turns to how long. And then you see something else and get distracted. And yeah, just like, or I'll just hyper focus on like, yeah, as you said about the Dropbox thing. Still getting that work. And then once that we're done and then all of a sudden I just saw something. I was like, oh, custom folders. And then I just ended up in Photoshop. I'm like, it's four in the morning. I need to go to bed. And then I'm in Photoshop like pissing around. Yeah. Do you think that's why people, because there is this weird thing. I don't think it's just in Magic, but it's kind of relatively recent in Magic. The thing of the amount of things being released and things we feel that we need to have. So a lot of people say to me, I know that thing of when a lot of people say, I could be completely making that up because they want to talk about it because it's me, but it is actually true. Loads of people do talk about that thing because they know I review stuff. When I do a lecture or something, I say, how do you keep up with, not review, but how do you keep up with the things that are coming out? They say, I can't keep up with them. And you go, well, you don't have to, right? Because they're not like an episode. It's not like an episode that you've got to watch the next one. And I'm not saying this because I feel the same, right? And so I try and think of it like music. It's like, yes, if you follow, like I was a massive Bowie fan. So every time a Bowie album came out, I did feel like I had to have that. But I didn't feel like I had to have the new album that came out from anyone. Because there were hundreds and thousands released every day. And I think it's getting a bit like that. We've got to go, okay, what are we into? Who are the people we like? Okay, maybe I'll keep up with them, but I don't need to get all of the things. Yeah, I think you try and just consume as much as you can, can't you? But like, you can't do that for a long time. It's only within this past year, really, that I've started stepping back into looking at latest stuff, just because of working with you and other people and everything. That's what I've kind of needed to do and see what's out there and stuff. And I'm like, I just can't keep track of it. There's way too much. Every day, there's a new trick or download or something. And I'm like, yeah, if you have to review all of that, we'd never get anywhere. We're bad enough as we are. Don't, don't, don't. With these reviews. I mean, it was nice doing a live one last night. I think that's the way to go. When I've got quite a lot to say about something, I think doing it live felt really good. So if anybody's listening to this, do watch the live ones. They're kind of, the algorithm works a bit differently with them. So you might have to look under the live or the reviews playlist or something like that. But I think that the thing about perfectionism in magic as well, I think that it's a fine line, isn't it? Because I think you've got to learn. The perfectionism is, I think, after performing it, right? Which is difficult for, I think, for people to, and me to take sometimes, because I want it to be as good as I can when I perform it for the first time. But the fact of the matter is, it's never going to be that good until I'm comfortable with the basics of the trick. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but then you beat yourself up after it, even when you do it and you're like, I know it's only the first time doing it, but it could have been better or something like that. And it's the same with, yeah, like just doing videos or just, yeah, I'm like really highly critical of everything. That's why I talk myself out of doing so much stuff. Like the amount of times I've got these ideas, I want to film these videos, I want to do that. It's kind of where I stopped doing them. I used to do videos of just me performing and stuff and tricks and everything. I stopped doing it just because I was putting myself on such a high pedestal that it wasn't really good. And then, as you say, the hard drives that I have are full of just complete videos and I've never put out because, you know, I've gone all out and filmed them, but I'm just like, or I used to sit on them for ages and months and years. Oh, I forgot about this. I'm just going to put this out now. But yeah, you're never going to be, as you say, you're never going to be perfect. It's like you're looking at that performance and you can go, oh, I don't really like that. But I don't think it's as bad as you think it is. No. I mean, the client won't look at it. Yeah, that's the camera angle. Yeah, not my fault. That was the dodgy camera angle. But that's interesting, right? So there's a review coming out of me where it's on the Score Pro by Looch and I did it on stage. It was an opening. It's a brand new show. I'd never performed that trick before. A thousand people or whatever. And it wasn't good. It was all right, right? It was kind of, I was confident on stage. I looked quite confident. But it wasn't tight. Were they different ones? Were they all filmed in like the same night or the same ship or what was it? Same night. So I did two shows back to back. I'd never done anything in that show because I held them out. Because I think you can even see the difference between the two already just in that thing. So I think that's the main thing, like doing comedy clubs or films and going through that first set to what the set is now. You can really see the development. I think that's the main thing. As long as you're doing a performance and you can see the change and where you're working on it and where you're tweaking it or anything like that, then I think that's all that matters, isn't it? Like, it doesn't matter. You're going to be ---- at the start. Like, you know, and there's only a very few that are ---- to start with. But yeah, like that's a prime example of like you see the first one, but then you see the second one of you just doing that trick. And I think you can see yourself just ease into it a little bit more because you've done it once now. So, you know, you're not a virgin of it. Like, yeah. Yeah. And that's what I think that the acceptance and even though, yeah, I beat myself up, I watch that and I go, you know, it's boring. There's no real jokes in it. There's so much more potential. But I think, I know for a fact, the audience afterwards were chatting to me and I do know, I know people say, oh, people say just that politeness. When you've been doing it well, you know when people are doing that and when they're coming up to you and going, oh, how do you do that thing? You know, and it was a nice opener. And I think it's, even though you beat yourself up and we all do, I think we should sort of go, you know, I had the nerve to do it. I was really nervous. I rehearsed it enough so technically it was fine. You know, nobody was looking at a gun. And it's a bank night thing, if you don't know, and we'll talk about bankable in a minute and stuff. So we've got as magicians, obviously, as long as the trick itself works, I think there's always going to be a level of success. Even if we do a trick badly, it usually does, because if the audience don't know what's going to happen, you can get away with certain things. I'm not saying that's a joke. I think that's the whole thing of magicians though, isn't it? Like, that's why we get away with a lot more and that's kind of why we're hated amongst comics, because we can get away with murder because of the trick. Like, that's it. How many, I mean, no fingers pointed, but how many magicians do we see that are ---- and yet think that the dog's bollocks because they can do a trick that they've bought from vanishing income and been doing it a week? Like, do you know what I mean? It's like, yeah. And I think that's the big thing about it. A lot of them like to think they think about tricks, but I don't think they do. They don't think about the performance, the trick of it all and stuff like that. Yeah, and that comes and I think that I think I've quoted this so many times as everybody else. I think Darren Brown, Darren said something along the lines of, you know, at the beginning, it's OK to copy, but that's your kind of, you're in to comfort. And then, you know, when you're comfortable and that's what I mean, when you're comfortable with it, with a routine, which is sometimes, as you said there, the first time you do it, because going into the unknown, even if you've seen it performed, especially a mentalism routine, when you know the method, you sometimes forget how fooling it is. And doing any routine for the first time on stage for me is terrifying. I mean, it's absolutely terrifying. Even if I know it's going to work, it could be self-working. There's part of me that goes, they're going to know it's done. You're going to look like an idiot and you're going to go on your arse. And as long as, and I think that that thing of having the nerve to do it literally the next time you do it, which could be the same night, like in that situation, you now have that thing in your head, you go, you know it works. On an A-level, it works. So then you relax and go, okay, we can play with this a little bit. Yeah, because I think that's the difference, isn't it, between like a comic. A comic only has to, I mean, granted, I'm not saying I'm not shitting on it or anything like that, but they have to write the jokes and essentially all they have to do is deliver a script. Whereas for us, or for some of us, we will do that as well. We'll write the script and we'll write the jokes, but then we've also got to focus on the tricks and the handlings and the angles and everything else. So we think it's like there's more things to do and deal with. So that's why in that first stage, sometimes it can be a bit overwhelming because, you know, you're doing everything, like if you only have to just sit there, not talk and just do the performance or something, it's like one trail of thought, but because we've got to think about, oh, is this script lining up with this and these moves and stuff like that? Sometimes, I don't know if you do it, but it's also not worth you putting the effort into a trick because you don't know if it's going to work for you. Everybody says, oh, this is going to kill it, it's going to be great on stage. Yeah, for you it might be, but how many times do you just do the trick to start off with, try it as it is and then go, you know what, this feels like it could be a me routine, right? Let's now mould it into what it can be of more of a me routine or whatever. Yeah, well, that's the thing, isn't it? Because there's two things going on there. There's the thing of, so you take the routine on stage and you do what I do. I mean, I was terrible. I mean, yes, I had the kind of blessing from people like Pete Wardell, but I was doing this show line for line, you know, and he was there, you know, he said he was all right with it and he was a good mate and he helped me with it. But looking back on it, I go, but, you know, I was insecure and I wanted it to work and, you know, so was it good to do that to give me the confidence? Again, I didn't steal anything here. This is, was it good to do that to give me the confidence to then feel comfortable on stage and then start adding it to it? I did add quite a lot to it and then my other routines, I was confident because I'd learnt confidence through that. I did pretend, you know, arguably get stuck for too long doing that same routine, but, or do we go out completely fresh? Well, some people say you should go out with completely new material, but that can be, that's really hard and one of the few people that have written about how hard that is and how few people do it, really, instead of, you know, most people get a version of a trick and then put their own spin on it or their own script on it or they change the props, but very few people go out there and go, this is completely original because it's dangerous because your ego can be damaged so much if that doesn't work. Yeah, and this is the routine that you think you're, and this routine that you love, you know, that you've thought, oh, you know, I'm onto a winner here and then you might have just had like a ---- start with it all and it's one of them like, I know you shouldn't be able to lay your audience or anything like that, but it can, there can be so many variables from it, that why that didn't work, it can be the room, it can be the audience, it can be just the environment, it could be the person that you got up on stage or whatever, there's so many variables as to why, like why it doesn't do that and I think that's the thing like with comics out here and everything and what I do is like, they'll be like, right, yeah, don't kill a joke straight away, try it in a few different things, different scenarios, like there's a massive change between three different rooms out here that you can do to see the difference of what it'll work in. Because it's, yeah, you don't always want to to get rid of it straight away because it might, there might be something there, you've just not delivered it right or as I say, it might be the room or something. Yeah and I think going back to, I want to go back to that with magic tricks as well, I hope I don't forget, but also just you saying about stand-ups and they don't have to think about as much sometimes when we're putting a new trick out, but then I suppose their argument could be that if you are writing original material, I mean, now I'm a magician, I do find writing original material without magic harder because I've got that thing to fall back on, but when you're first starting out, there are people that do magic, that don't do magic on stage, that do other stuff on stage and say to me, oh, the thought of a trick going wrong would terrify me too much, but then the thought of a gag going wrong terrifies me. Yeah, because you did stand-up, didn't you, at some point? Did you? Yeah, I did on and off for about a year in London, back in the early 2000s and what I found was that when I was on form and I could improvise and I was feeling it, I was great, but I was not very good at writing material, but it worked really well when I did generic material about animals and sex and drugs, you know, all that stuff, but quite quickly I was hearing that that wasn't the way to go and it's the same with everything. You start doing generic stuff, whether it's magic and comedy, you know there is an easier way through. Where the audience will respect you, but your peers won't and that's a whole other conversation. So I think it's also about finding your own voice, isn't it? Like, at the end of the day, when you start off, you know, you're doing, it's like with magic, you know, you try your coins, you try your cards, you try your mentalism, your stage, your manip, I don't know, whatever, everything, until you kind of work out what you like and what you don't like and what becomes your voice. I think that's the big thing in stand-up is the only way to try out, that's the difference between magic is you can fiddle, you can be like, all right, I'll play with this and stuff like that and kind of casually perform it. You're not just sat with your friends and family and be like, right, sit down here. Okay, right, is this thing on? Right, and just doing a five there. But that's a really good point. Like, so if you're, this is why I think I found it so difficult sometimes to decide what to throw out and what to keep because when I was hosting my own show a lot, like the magic show where I'd have the Greystones here, where they have, you know, John Archer and Alan Hudson and many, many people come up and perform. I was hosting it, so my thing is I tried different tricks every time and they would all work on some level, but some of them just weren't really me, but it's hard to know when they're not really you because you're trying them out in front of audiences that are really generous and lovely, so they're always giving you the response. So you go, what one? So it's harder to make, it's almost easier to take it out to harsh audiences and then decide on that, but I think the key is, like you said, it's about your voice and that isn't necessarily about the trick that suits you either, it's the what tricks do you feel comfortable? What is that thing that the trick is you? What is that? You know, because sometimes it's not the style. That's the thing to find it, isn't it? Yeah, it's finding what you like about it, but also I think sometimes you can really like the idea of a trick, but you just don't know how to make it you or make it in a more modern way. Yeah, and like for me, I've got a big list of stuff like that, especially like the old classics and things, but I'm like, well, but if I did it exactly as it is now or in what we know it as, it just doesn't like look at it like what, for example, like a pom-pom stick, a pom-pom stick. I've always loved that. Oh, lovely. But I suppose it can. That's where I think it does have to be. What can I do with this? Either to make it funny, genuinely funny. I don't mean just the usual. Oh, look how naff I am, which is, you know, run gag and done it many a time. I think John's a great example of this, of like finding material that he really owns to one, make his own, but also to just like not just grabbing every new thing. Like he'll work on something and be like, oh, I want to do this. And then it'll take time before he kind of affects it and starts to make it his own. And he'll dial it in, basically, rather than just, you know, a load of magicians. So I'm putting a new show together. I heard that was a big thing about The Fringe like last year, because I didn't go to The Fringe, but I went to Edinburgh. And then just people just doing shows and just basically, they just pop to the magic shop. Really? They're all doing, yeah, Rubik's Cubes and Toxic Plus. It's like both of which are in my show. It's like somebody posted on the magicians only the other day and being like, oh, something about Toxic Plus or whatever, like, how do people do it? And I'm like at the end of the show, just don't bother doing it. Yeah, well, that's the thing. So I think it feels like I'm making excuses here. To me, and this is only to me, I think there is a difference. I feel the need to be more original and creative if I'm doing my own show and I have to close the show with Toxic Plus than if I'm doing my own show at a corporate or something. Do you know what I mean? I don't know whether that's good or bad, but if I'm doing, say I'm doing an Edinburgh show, I haven't done one, but if I'm doing an Edinburgh show or my show at the Greystone, my show, I want it to have meaning, it meant a lot to me and that's the show I'd love to work on for years and years and years and become the thing I do for me. That's the creative, one for the soul. Yeah. Whereas rocking up at a corporate where they're kind of watching you but they don't really care who you are. You know when somebody says to them who was a magician a week later, they're going to say they don't know. Then I'm a little bit more likely to feel like what's going to work in this environment and not be as fussy about it. I'm not going to nick stuff, but I'm not that as bothered about. Yeah, you're not being compared to anybody. I think that's the difference, isn't it? Whereas if you're on, if you're doing a fringe or something like that, you know, you're competing between a lot of magicians, you know, hundreds sometimes and I think that's the difference is now, right? What sets you apart? What sets your show apart? Like, how are you standing out and not just, you know, falling in with the crowd and stuff and essentially being a sheep, really? Yeah, yeah. And it's been noticed for quite a while, there wasn't enough of it. Like to us, there was a lot of that going on, but actually to lay people, there wasn't, you know, but that comic, oh, what's he called again? The guy that did the thing about magicians on Britain's Got Talent. Oh yeah, that was it. Yeah, that was a really good example. And then have you seen the Daniel Sloss clip that's coming, doing it's roundabout magicians as well? No. Oh, I'll send you that after and stuff. No, this is a different one. Jack was telling me about it the other day. I'll have to send it to you. And basically it's like, oh, in short, he's kind of just saying that, you know, I'm happy not being like the best performer ever, but I know that I'll always be better than a magician. And then he's just basically just goes after magicians or something. And he's like, oh, have you ever seen a magician that's not artistic? He's like trying to find a comic that's not got depression. Oh really? Yeah, great. Yeah, but it's a really good, like little minute, two minutes. And you're just like, yeah, okay. I'll get you. I'm going to have a look. And, you know, comics will know this as well. That, of course, that's fine. That generalization is, we know that's a generalization and we know we've got a lot to laugh about. And there's a lot to. Yeah, it sounds like I'm shitting on comics, but I'm not, I'm not even shitting on comics because like they, you know, like, as I say, that's, that's like a massive part of my world as well. Although I see with them, like there's still a lot of, as just the same is with magicians. There's a lot of lazy comics out there as well. Yeah. Just even, they're still finding the voice or just get an ego straight away. And yeah, they just need to take a step back. And I want to differentiate as well between that, you know, that thing of putting the show together. And I don't really think, you know, I think if you've got close-up gigs, I don't really mind if people are original or not. They're doing two and a half hours at a corporate. Do what works, you know, it's hard. Yeah. Unless you're on like a multi-man gig. Yeah, yeah. What groups are you doing? You all pull out double-crossed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You want enough stuff, don't you? You want enough stuff to be able to go, right. Yeah. And please, you know, when you go to a table, can you not tell them all to clap and cheer for no reason for the first five minutes? Because I'm not going to do that and that's going to make it look ----. Yeah. Just begging for that applause, isn't it? Yeah. Which I do on the street to get your audience, but I hate it when, it's fine, but you know, when people go, okay, everybody clap and cheer for no reason. So the people over there think I'm brilliant and it's quite a funny gag, but you've got to go, have I got to do that now? Yeah. And then you just come to a cop comparing contest, don't it? You're all just like, oh, who can cheer the loudest? It's like, well, you're just ******* asking them, so what's the point? Yeah. Yeah. It's like the people that end the shows and be like, trying to beg for a standing ovation. No. Mate. And then they come off and go, I got a standing ovation. It's like, no, you didn't. Yeah. And they're like, oh, nailed that gig. I'm like, did you? I know. I'm going to repeat myself if we go down that route. We're going to piss so many people off with these. I just know we are. Oh, no, no, because no, and that's the thing. If I think if anybody gets pissed off at that, I'm talking about myself here as well. I've done all. Yeah. If I'm on stage and I'm struggling, all that ---- goes out the window. I try not to, but if I'm dying on it, I'm like, I say all that ******* generic lines. I try not to say stock lines, but yeah, as you say, sometimes you just like, you just get caught in the moment or something, or you just say it, and then after you're like, oh, I should have said that back at home. Yeah, didn't mean to say that one. Yeah. So going back to the stuff that's released and working things in, I think just to sort of finish off and talk about a magic trick, I think bankable, because this is something I've, I haven't actually reviewed it this week, but I've used it and played with it and showed it a few people. That's one of those tricks, I think, because it's based on a routine that we know works. It's bank night, but it has this kind of moment that is a gag, right? The thing of, they choose a different color, a white of a color envelope. If you pull it out, it's got the prize in it, and it says, give Steve a high five, which is their thing, which is their, you know, Eric thing, I think. And the rest have got 50 pound notes in, you show them the window. Yeah, people don't have to just do that description, just don't know what it is. But if they haven't, it's bankable by Eric Stevens. That's right, I keep getting put out by Trick Trick Boom. Eric Stevens and Trick Trick Boom. Yeah. But the moment, well, it's easy to say that the moment is the gag, because the gag thing, it's almost like the Williams and Rocky Bakun thing. It's like there's 50 pound note in each one that they see that they haven't chosen, and there's just says, you've won a high five or whatever. And then you say, do you wanna have another go? They say yes, and you hold your hand up for a high five. Now, that took me a few goes to get the laugh, because the trick is stronger than we remember. The trick is potentially stronger than we think, we've seen it so many times, but it is genuinely that people go, ****, how did I not get the 50 quid one? Look, it's strong. And when they're still responding from that, if you then do a gag, when they're still trying to work out internally, how it's worked, then the gag isn't kind of noticed. And that's why I think a lot of people I've seen on the Facebook page and online, but most people say it's brilliant. Everybody's saying they're loving it. I think that's gonna be one of them, isn't it? It's gonna be like, everybody's gonna be having it in their set. And I think how many people are going to change it from what it is as well, or are they just gonna do it stock as is and be a mass magician, basically, where you just lost in the crowd? Yeah, but then, yeah, I probably will for a bit, until I'm comfortable. Because, again, I'm not saying it's good to do it straight out of the box, but if it works, it might get to a point where I kind of think everything I add to it isn't gonna be as good, so maybe I just have a laugh with them and add my own personality into it or whatever. Or if I can't get the laugh with it, because I think that'll be the case for some people, just that timing of the gag might not suit them, just do it as a trick or get the laugh somewhere else or do something else or get the laugh by winding them up and trying to get them to choose the yellow one and all that kind of thing. Yeah, I think there's a lot of buy play into it, isn't there, really? And I like the fact that it's not... You can build it up as big as you want, or you can build up as small as you want, so you don't have to do all... Is it five envelopes, four envelopes? You don't have to do all of them, you can do it with two envelopes if you want. You could add more to it, you could do a stage version of it, like, yeah, you don't have to reveal the money inside of it, you could have something else or whatever and stuff. I think there's quite a few nice things that you can kind of modulate it to be your own and play around with it. Toby just told me an idea that we can't have on here, not because it's an original one and someone else does a thing with it, but the point of it is that it doesn't have to be the notes. And I think people on the Facebook page have started coming out with a really nice idea, and it's such a simple idea, and again, going back to Looch's score, it's the same trick, right? It's got a different method, and it's got the gag, and it's got a different presentation because it's got the windows in the thing. However, that thing of Bank Night not having to be, I've won the money or you haven't, and it isn't like that because this is with humour, it's just that thing is shown at the end with the windows, in fact, it's better than opening... I think you touch on that, don't you, on the score, that's why Looch changed it because sometimes with the money, I think it can be come across as a bit kind of like, aha, look what I've won, and you've lost, it's a bit downplaying to the spectator, isn't it? Whereas at least with Looch's, it's not that because no money's involved. And then with this as well, it's not about the money as well, it's that high-five you're building up as if that's the better thing. And if you get it right, that moment is, it is like the Williamson Rocky Raccoon thing where he does the thing, it's just you put your finger up his butt and you wiggle it, yeah, do you want to go, throw the routine away and walk towards him, it's such a great moment. But the timing has to be right and the thing about that is that's not after a really clever magic trick. I always felt that finishing a street show with the cups and balls for me never worked because they were going, ah, how the **** did he get that melon under the hat? Because most of them, believe it or not, don't think it arrived there by magic. And as they're thinking that, they're not thinking that was great, I want to pay him. So... It's too strong, basically. It's too strong. You know, I think, so the way you do it, you kind of do a big speech of it or something, but I think that's the case with a lot of this stuff. Some people would do a gag that they thought of that's brilliant and go, why isn't he getting the laugh? Because people can't think of those two things at the same time. They can't relax enough to laugh. They might laugh at the... You need that breathing room, don't you, essentially? Yeah, because they're laughing at the 50s. You know, yeah. And if you say a gag sometimes, it's like, oh, a joke, you know, before you move on to the next bit, you need to let it settle. You know, that's a massive thing, comedy of, you know, you've got to say it, let it breathe and then move on or say your tag or something that goes on the end of it all. Yeah. Otherwise you'd be losing it all. And it's such a cliche, isn't it? Even the gag about timing, you know, that everybody does. But people know that human's timing and everything's timing is good. But actually, we forget sometimes and we go, why didn't that work? It's not a good trick. And you go, no, it's not. And that hasn't happened with Vancouver, but it has happened with some tricks. And I say, no, it's not because it's a bad trick. It could be that it doesn't suit you, but it might be that you've got to frame that moment. I always remember I spent so long learning the top shot, then at Green's top shot, and I finally got it and I performed it and it got very little response. And it's because they kind of missed it. I didn't, there wasn't enough space before it happened. I didn't frame it because I was so nervous about doing it. But I just kind of went, boom, and done it and just wanted to get out of the way. And they weren't looking half the time, you know what I mean? And now it's kind of like, I still screw it up, but I'll get them staring at that deck and I'll go, bang, and it'll come up. And so if I drop it, fine, you know, but it's a totally different response. And they can just be overwhelmed, isn't it? You know, they're just overwhelmed by seeing too much. You just kind of pow, pow, pow, trick, trick, or gag, gag, gag and stuff. And it's like, no, you need to, you know, it's just like you're eating your food too quick. You know, you're not going to enjoy it. So you need to savor the little bits and stuff. And then, you know, know when to deliver like the ending or the final bit. Yeah. And I would say people with- It's almost like a throwaway thought, isn't it? With bankable, that end bit is like the routine's over. And then you just go in as one last little bit, and you're like, oh, do you want another go? And then that's when you, you know, as the moment's settled and the thinking's all over, isn't it? Yeah. Well, that's another thing. And because I don't want people to think of- I always, I always get so worried about this. I always get so worried about people not liking me. But I don't want people to think I'm talking about this because I'm friends with Noel. I'm talking about it because everybody's talking about it. I'm talking about it because I think that there are things to talk about that aren't just, is it a good trick or not? And the way I thought, only working with me, because I couldn't get that time that I was doing that and I wasn't getting enough, was I'd finish a trick and walk away and almost come back and go, I feel really bad, do you want another go? So everything's done. Or- I think that'd be really nice, actually. Like, as you're circling back around that table, you just lean in, you know, as you're walking past and they're just pointing to you or something. I mean, I wouldn't even always do it at all. It's just if they walk past and they point at you, can you show us another? You'd be like, do you want another go? And then you just walk off again. Yeah. Like, that's it. Like, yeah. Yeah, maybe say like the high five or anything. Yeah. As long as they still remember it, it's like, oh, it's such a fine one. But that's the thing that's fun, isn't it? Trying it, because again, we've got, we're so privileged to have the safety net of it being a good trick anyway, so we can play with those things. If the thing doesn't get laughed, it doesn't matter, doesn't it? Because the trick still works. I think that's why a lot of people do invisible deck, isn't it? Because it's so easy and it's so strong that it just allows them to play with all the, I mean, it's not like they do play with other routines for it. It's still just doing the standard thing. But yeah, I think it allows them to do that because, you know, you don't have to put too much effort and that's what banker believes. You don't have to think too much about the routine. It's, how would you say it's self worth? I wouldn't say it's fully self-working, but it is very self-contained, basically. Yeah, it's simple and you don't really have to think too much about it. That it allows you to build that performance and routine and not worry about, you know, if you're doing some technical slight or got double undercut and then pass. No, it's super. You know, palm something out. Yeah, it's just none of that. But you still screw it up as I have done, but that's because I didn't really, but I just kind of, you know, just by kind of that thing happens, doesn't know when you are comfortable with the trick. And sometimes you can go for a period of being a bit too comfy and forgetting that you actually got to think. That is where the podcast ends. It ends abruptly because Steve had to go off and have a little wee wee, basically as the father of a child. But don't worry, in episode three, we do finish the whole episode as it's supposed to be. I made sure he had a little try beforehand and we made it to the end. Thanks for subscribing. Hope you enjoyed this episode and we will catch you in the next one.