Wafflepod Epsiode 2. Bankable, ADHD and the Art of Framing a Moment

Hi, Toby here, just before the podcast begins of episode two of the Waffle Pod. I'm just going to let you know that it ends quite abruptly at the end. Basically, there's no outgoing, no final words or anything. We're just cut off mid-sentence. It's because we stopped recording and we forgot to click start recording. So sorry about that, but you've got most of what you need, really. It was only like a final five minutes. Anyway, on with the pod. All right, well, there you go. There's a bit of faffing we're recording. I've just listened to your voice message. Well, it was quite funny because you just edited me a review. And I said to you, is it me or is that performance in that review ----? And you kind of got back to me and went, yeah, a bit. Which I'm really glad you did. I really am glad you did. It means it's all going to work very well. Yeah, it was. It was one of them where I'm like, especially the coin thing. I was like, oh, I don't know what to do with this coin thing. Yeah, I know. I know. Well, I think the coin thing's all right because it's not very interesting for people. But maybe it's just the wrong camera angle. But she just responded to it. So I reckon that's all right. But it's just a stage routine. I think that's the thing, though. At the end of the day, it shows that it works, doesn't it? It's really difficult to fool the camera, which we know. And it just shows that it works in the real world, really, because the attention is not where we know it is. So maybe that's an example of it. So you're Toby in Canada. Now, I know I do this every time and it's so annoying. It is like that comedy thing, isn't it, of what time is it there? What time is it there in Canada? Because I should know. 25 past 10 in the morning this time compared to last time, which was in the evening. Right. And you look knackered. So I was thinking, is it like five in the morning? But then I remembered that we were messing with each other and you were going down a rabbit hole of things that you shouldn't. And what time was that? So that was, I think, four o'clock in the morning. No! Yeah, three, four o'clock. And then I just couldn't get to sleep. I was just in bed, just whirling with ideas and stuff like that. I think last time I checked, it was like half six, seven o'clock before I kind of dozed off. So I'm probably going to have a nap after this. How old are you? Yeah, 31. Yeah, I mean, at least you're not past 40. You're fucked, basically. If you're my age, you know, like, I reckon if I go to bed after, if I'm being totally honest, after about half 12, because I get up early. If I have, like, four hours, I'm pretty fucked. Things just don't work in my head. So you've had, like, nothing. I've always been, like, a late-night person, though. Like, I'll happily stay up late and work. Like, that's when I prefer to do it. Especially the early mornings. Like, you mess with me so early in the morning, I'm like, how are you doing that? I can't get up at them times. But yeah, just sleeping in general, I'm just ---- at. Like, that's when I think about things and ideas, and yeah. I know. It's ADHD. You diagnosed with ADHD? No, I'm trying to get a diagnosis for it, though. Because somebody said to me, like, a bit back, was like, you need a test. Well, a few people. And then somebody was like, I think you need a test. I was like, hmm. And then the more I've been over here, the more, like, a few people have said it more to me, and been like, you diagnosed? And I'm like, no, not yet. Why? So, yeah. It's a funny one, isn't it? Because a lot of people said, well, why do you need it? It's just a label and stuff like that. And I think it helped me. And I think you kind of know, by the time you get it done, you've got to be careful. Because you kind of know you have got it or not, if you're like me, and you start reading up and stuff. I had a therapist that basically said to me, like, well, I had two, actually. That was, like, two separate ones, were basically like, can we do a test today? I'm like, all right. Okay, what's this? And then at the end of it, she's like, I think you need to go get an ADHD test. And I was like, all right, thanks. So, yeah. But it's one of them where, I don't know what the benefit would be. Like, are you on the medication of it? I don't know whether that would... Yeah. And I've thought about that. But my friend, she's been diagnosed recently, and she's just been on the medication. And to start off with, it really messed her up a little bit. But I think that's just with any medication. Yeah, yeah. It can happen if you've got to take it long term. Yeah, I think it's just titration, isn't it? Because there's two, well, there's three different main kinds. There's two main kinds. There's the amphetamine-based one, and the sort of, well, it's basically Ritalin, which is a brand name, but you know, methylphenidate. And depending on how you respond to it. Most people are on the sort of, what's it called? Lisdex amphetamine one. However, I've responded really badly to that. So with the methylphenidate, I'm totally fine. But also, I think people take a very sort of pro or against thing with it. And I think it's just like, it's such a personal thing. Yeah. You don't want to change your personality and stuff like that. But it didn't with me, so that's all right. Yeah, I feel like I've got worse since I've been out here. And I think it's just, I don't know what it is. Just, yeah, spiral out of it. I think it's because I'm, yeah, there's not as much, there's not many people around for me and everything. So I think I'm just like more in my own head of stuff. Yeah, I've been more lax with things. And I'm sort of, ----, I've got to do this today. But I also think it's well, it's like, I talked to quite a number of magicians. I'm sure like every magician's got it at some point, somewhere in them, they've got something, they're that and they're a little bit acoustic out there. So, yeah. Well, I think, yeah, because, of course, and this is where people say things like, oh, it seems like everybody's got it. And that's, it's almost like your Facebook algorithm, right? It's like, you tend to flock together, you know, with people that are like you. So things like magic and very kind of insular, potentially insular things, I'm not saying it's not great community around it, but the learning of it and all that is, will draw a sort of more neurodivergent person sometimes, something, you know, it's a big generalisation. And it's like street performers, you know, when I was street performing, it's like, well, you know, everybody's just, these aren't normal people. They were for me for 20 years. And then when I came back into the real world, I was like, oh, I always had non-performer friends. But if we're not careful, we judge what's going on on our own kind of algorithm, don't we? And I think that that's why. Yeah. And I think the more I'm trying to work on this show, the more it's proved to me as well, because like just trying to focus and sit down on like one trick or one routine. And then like, oh, it's that thing of, you get the initial spark of it all, or you find a little idea, then you go back to it and then you jump to something else. And I'm like, as much as I try and stay focused, as you've seen with my whiteboard, like picking one thing at a time, I'm still like jumping back and forth between other ideas. Yeah. Oh, mate. So, and I think this is, I think people might think, why are you talking about this? I think it's important because every time I do talk about it, I get so many messages saying, I'm so glad you talked about it. And so I think it's, if people are going, well, I'm not diagnosed and I'm diabetic, it's not about that. I think if you struggle with things, like you said, there is a spectrum. I don't mean spectrum necessarily autistic spectrum, but there is a spectrum of things that many people find difficult. And I think that because of what's happening with our attention at the moment, whether you're diagnosed or not, got it not, there are more people struggling with focus because our attention is being drawn. Yeah. I think the world is just that, isn't it really? You know, you look at social media and everything. If you've ever seen that, the social dilemma documentary. Oh man. Like that, I think that just proves it as well. Like before I didn't think too much of it when I went back in England and then like somebody said it to me and then I had like a few therapists that said say it and then a few other people. And then over here, like, I feel like it's just become more apparent, like people telling me and then just in myself as well, just noticing it. Um, yeah. And then just like talking to you as well. I'm like, yeah, I think that's why it was just like, I'm like, oh ****, we're off again. When it's a new morning, it's like, oh, here we go again. It's when you said it was like, I'm trying to say I'm in Dropbox and I knew it was late. I didn't know it was four o'clock. And I was like, yeah, no, that's like, you know, you could just like leave it till tomorrow. But it's like, yeah. And you *******, this is the thing that I find the hardest about it is that I know when I'm in my element and I'm kind of functioning well, I can be really good at certain things. Like when I'm on it with reviews and magic and performing. But when I'm not doing right, I think performing stuff always works. I'm not saying I turn up if I'm all over the place, but to get into that zone when I don't have to. All right. So when you're doing a gig, it's different. Or if someone says it's a meeting or an interview, that's fine. I might struggle before it, but it always happens. But it's that thing of trying to organize your own time around your own schedule and your own timetable when there's nobody saying to you, be here at this time. Yeah. That's, I'm fucked. I need a deadline. Like if I don't have deadlines and stuff, I'm just, as I've said to you, I'm like, you need to give me a deadline. Otherwise I'll just, and it's the same with a unit. Like me and my friend were so bad with it. We would like, it'd be due that day at like, you know, 9 a.m. And the night before we'd leave everything to it and we'd just ******* go ham and get it done. And then we'd hand it in and we'd then sleep that day and we'd be like, oh, we can't do that again. And then roll onto the next assignment every time. Yeah. And it's like, but yeah, I think that's just the way I work with pressure. And that's what I have to do. And I think that's why with the show especially, it's difficult because there isn't a deadline. And as much as I've tried to give myself deadlines, I'm also kind of like, yeah, but I also don't want to rush it because I want this to be what I want it to, like, yeah, you want it to be something good. And if it's rushed together, but then also it can take years. But it's going to be anyway. It's going to be anyway. That's the thing. Like, yeah, I started this, this original idea was like 2013 or something. I didn't start working on them, but I had the idea and started. And I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm happier more with the direction the show's gone now than it was then. Because before it was like really wankery and I'm like, oh, whereas I look at it now, I'm like, no, this is something that I want to create. But then you just kind of, well, how long is this going to take? Because we've been at it for so long. Come on, deadline, Toby. Yeah, I think that's why, and I think it can be, my magic clubs can be so helpful because I didn't have that really when I was learning. And it's fine because I was just learning for the sake of learning at the beginning. But I think that that thing of, okay, this week we're doing this, so you sort of get a trick together to show. Yeah. And a social, if people haven't got a magic club, I think a social kind of thing of, okay, meet up and we'll show each other, you know, this trick we've been working on. My big, I had a proper sort of meltdown today because I get into that sort of shame of it. Okay, so when I'm kind of really, I was on it yesterday and I got a lot done yesterday and I did live review. And my big thing at the moment is being overwhelmed by reviews and family stuff and it all kind of having too much of a pile of everything. So yesterday I thought, right, I'm actually, I'm getting there now. I don't mean I've nearly finished, but I'm starting, I've started that ball rolling. And then today, the first couple hours was good. I was learning that Alakazam imagined trick and I was like, right, I've learned it properly. Now I can talk about it. And then something happened and that's boring. But for two hours, I was totally, two or three hours kind of paralyzed. And that I think is a frustrating thing. It's, I'm there and I'm ready to do it and it's not laziness, but my brain can't click into the thing. I just get paralyzed with that overwhelmed thing. And there's a weird thing because part you knows what you got to do, but there's this kind of barrier. And I'll sometimes literally walk towards the task. Like I'll literally walk towards the deck of cards and then something will just, I'll just find myself in the kitchen half an hour later. That's it, like last week I made custard and then I got distracted halfway through making it. Forgot about it, went back to it. I think it was like four or five hours later. We're all lumpy. I'm like, oh, well that's ----, isn't it? Like, I'll make custard now. And it's just, yeah, I'm just like, but then I make, like I need to have lists and I'm really prone to like writing lists down or something. I just do it to myself. I don't know if you do it, but like I overwhelm myself because I'll write a list. I'll be like, oh, this, this, this, this, this, this. And I end up making like a massive long list. I'm like, oh, then I get overwhelmed by it. Then I'm like, oh, I don't know where to start. I'll start in 10 minutes. And then obviously that 10 minutes turns to how long. And then you see something else and get distracted. And yeah, just like, or I'll just hyper focus on like, yeah, as you said about the Dropbox thing, still getting that work. And then once that we're done and then all of a sudden I just saw something, I was like, oh, custom folders. And then I just ended up in Photoshop. I'm like, it's four in the morning. I need to go from your Photoshop, like pissing around. Yeah. Do you think that's why people, because there is this weird thing. I don't think it's just in magic, but it's kind of relatively recent in magic. The thing of the amount of things being released and things we feel that we need to have. So a lot of people say to me, and it sounds, I know that thing of Wednesday. A lot of people say, I could be completely making that up. They want to talk about it because it's me, but it is actually true. Loads of people do talk about that thing because they know I review stuff. When I do a lecture or something, they say, how do you keep up with, not review, but how do you keep up with the things that are coming out? They say, I can't keep up with them. And you go, we don't have to, right? Because they're not like an episode. It's not like an episode that you've got to watch the next one. And I'm not saying this because I feel the same, right? So I try and think of it like music. It's like, yes, if you follow, like I was a massive Bowie fan. So every time a Bowie album came out, I did feel like I had to have that. But I didn't feel like I had to have the new album that came out from anyone. Because there were hundreds and thousands released every day. And I think it's getting a bit like that. We've got to go, okay, what are we into? Who are the people we like? Okay, maybe I'll keep up with them, but I don't need to get all of the things. I think you're trying to consume as much as you can, can't you? But you can't do that for a long time. It's only within this past year, really, that I've started stepping back into looking at latest stuff just because of working with you and other people and everything. That's what I've kind of needed to do and see what's out there and stuff. And I'm like, I just can't keep track of it. There's way too much. Every day, there's a new trick or download or something. And I'm like, yeah. If you have to review all of that, we'd never get anywhere. We're bad enough as we are. Don't, no, no, don't. With these reviews. I mean, it was nice doing a live one last night. I think that's the way to go. When I've got quite a lot to say about something, I think doing it live felt really good. So if anybody listens to this, do watch the live ones. The algorithm works a bit differently with them. So you might have to look under the live or the reviews playlist or something like that. But I think that the thing about perfectionism in magic as well, I think that it's a fine line, isn't it? Because I think you've got to learn. The perfectionism is, I think, after performing it, right? Which is difficult, I think, for people to, and me, to take sometimes because I want it to be as good as I can when I perform it for the first time. But the fact of the matter is, until I'm comfortable performing it, it's never going to be that good until I'm comfortable with the basics of the trick. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but then you beat yourself up after it even when you do it and you're like, I know it's only the first time doing it, but it could have been better or something like that. And it's the same with, yeah, like just doing videos or just, yeah, I'm like really highly critical of everything. That's why I talk myself out of doing so much stuff. Like the amount of times I've got these ideas, I want to film these videos, I want to do that and stuff. It's kind of where I've stopped doing them. I used to do videos of just me performing and stuff and tricks and everything. I stopped doing it just because I was putting myself on such a high pedestal that it wasn't really good. And then, as you say, the hard drives that I have are full of just complete videos and I've never put out because, you know, I've gone all out and filmed them, but I'm just like, or I used to sit on them for ages and months and years but, yeah, you're never going to be, as you say, you're never going to be perfect. It's like you're looking at that performance and you go, I don't really like that, but I don't think it's as bad as you think it is. No. I mean, the climbing wall. Yeah, that's a camera angle. Yeah, not my fault. That was a dodgy camera angle. But that's interesting, right? So there's a review coming out of me performing, it's on the Score Pro by Looch, and I did it on stage. It was an opening. It's a brand new show. I'd never performed that trick before. A thousand people or whatever. And it wasn't good. It was all right, right? It was kind of... I was confident on stage. I looked quite confident. But it wasn't tight. Were they different ones? Were they all filmed in the same night? Or was it the same ship? Or what was it? Same night. So I did two shows back-to-back. I'd never done anything in that show because I held them out. They couldn't dock. Because I think you can even see the difference between the two already just in that thing. So I think that's the main thing. Doing comedy clubs or films and going through that first set to what the set is now, you can really see the development. I think that's the main thing. As long as you're doing a performance and you can see the change and where you're working on it and where you're tweaking it or anything like that, then I think that's all that matters, isn't it? You're going to be ---- at the start. And there's only a very few that aren't ---- to start with. But yeah, that's a prime example of you see the first one, but then you see the second one of you just doing that trick. And I think you can see yourself just ease into it a little bit more because you've done it once now. So you're not a virgin of it. And that's what I think, the exceptions. And even though, yeah, I'd be myself. I'd probably watch that and I'd go, you know, it's boring. There's no real jokes in it. There's so much more potential. But I think, I know for a fact, the audience afterwards were chatting to me. And I do know, I know people say, oh, people say just that politeness. When you've been doing it well, you know when people are doing that. And when they're coming up to you and going, oh, how do you do that thing? You know, and it was a nice opener. And I think it's, even though you beat yourself up, and we all do, I think we should sort of go, you know, I had the nerve to do it. I was really nervous. I rehearsed it enough, so technically it was fine. You know, nobody was looking at it again. They knew it was done. And it's a bank night thing, if you don't know. And we'll talk about bankable in a minute and stuff. So we've got as magicians, obviously, as long as the trick itself works, I think there's always going to be a level of success. Even if we do a trick badly, it usually does. Because if the audience don't know what's going to happen, you can get away with certain things. I'm not saying that's the goal. I think that's the whole thing of magicians though, that's why we get away with a lot more. And that's kind of why we're hated amongst comics, because we can get away with murder because of the trick. That's it. No fingers pointed, but how many magicians do we see that are ----, and yet think that the dog's bollocks because they can do a trick that they've bought from vanishing income and been doing it a week? Do you know what I mean? It's like, yeah. And I think that's the big thing about it. A lot of them like to think they think about tricks, but I don't think they do. They don't think about the performance, the trick of it all, and stuff like that. Yeah. And that comes, and I think that, I think I've quoted this so many times, as have everybody else. I think Derren Brown, Derren said something along the lines of, you know, at the beginning, it's okay to copy, but that's your kind of, you're in to comfort. And then, you know, when you're comfortable, and that's what I mean, when you're comfortable with a routine, which is sometimes, as you said there, the first time you do it, because going into the unknown, even if you've seen it performed, especially a mentalism routine, when you know the method, you sometimes forget how fooling it is. And doing any routine for the first time on stage for me is terrifying. I mean, it's absolutely terrifying. Even if I know it's going to work, it could be self-working. There's part of me that goes, they're going to know it's done, you're going to look like an idiot, and you're going to die on your ass. And as long as, and I think that thing of having the nerve to do it, literally the next time you do it, which could be the same night, like in that situation, you now have that thing in your head, you go, you know it works. On an A-level, it works, and then you relax and go, okay, we can play with this a little bit. Yeah, because I think that's the difference, isn't it, between like a comic. A comic only has to, I mean, granted, I'm not saying, I'm not shitting on it or anything like that, but they have to write the jokes, and essentially all they have to do is deliver a script. Whereas for us, for some of us, we will do that as well, we'll write the script, and we'll write the jokes, but then we've also got to focus on the tricks, and the handlings, and the angles, and everything else. So we think it's like, there's more things to do and deal with. So that's why in that first stage, sometimes it can be a bit overwhelming, because, you know, you're doing everything, like if you only have to just sit there, not talk and just do the performance, it's like one trail of thought, but because we've got to think about, oh, is this script lining up with this, and these moves, and stuff like that. Sometimes, I don't know if you do it, but it's also not worth you putting the effort into a trick, because you don't know if it's going to work for you. Everybody says, oh, this is going to kill it, it's going to be great on stage. Yeah, for you it might be, but how many times do you just do the trick to start off with, try it as it is, and then go, you know what, this feels like it could be a me routine, let's now mould it into what it can be of more of a me routine, or whatever. Yeah, well, that's the thing, isn't it, because there's two things going on there, there's the thing of, so you take the routine on stage, and you do what I do, I mean, I was terrible, I mean, yes, I had the kind of blessing from people like Pete Wardell, but I was doing this show line for line, you know, and he was there, you know, he said he was all right with it, and he was a good mate, and he helped me with it, but looking back on it, I go, you know, but, you know, I was insecure, and I wanted it to work, and, you know, so was it good to do that to give me the confidence, again, I didn't steal anything here, this is, was it good to do that to give me the confidence to then feel comfortable on stage, and then start adding it to it, and I did add quite a lot to it, and then my other routines, I was confident, I've learned confidence through that, I did pretend, you know, arguably get stuck for too long, doing that same routine, but, or do we go out completely fresh, or some people say you should go out with completely new material, but that can be, that's really hard, and one of the few people that have written about how hard that is, and how few people do it, really, instead of, you know, most people get a version of a trick, and then put their own spin on it, or their own script on it, or they change the props, but very few people go out there and go, this is completely original, because it's dangerous, because your ego can be damaged so much if that doesn't work. Yeah, and this routine that you think you're, and this routine that you love, you know, that you've thought, oh, you know, I'm onto a winner here, and then you might have just had, like, a ---- start with it all, and it's one of them, like, I know you shouldn't be able to learn your audience, or anything like that, but it can, there can be so many variables from it, that why that didn't work, it can be the room, it can be the audience, it can be just the environment, it could be the person that you got up on stage, or whatever, there's so many variables as to why, like, why it doesn't do that, and I think that's the thing, like, with comics out here, and everything, and what I do is, like, they'll be like, right, yeah, don't kill a joke straight away, try it in a few different things, different scenarios, like, there's a massive change between three different rooms out here, that you can do, to see the difference of what it'll work in, because it's, yeah, you don't always want to, to get rid of it straight away, because it might, there might be something there, you've just not delivered it right, or as I say, it might be the room or something. Yeah, and I think going back to, I want to go back to that with magic tricks as well, I hope I don't forget, but also just, you're saying about stand-ups, and they don't have to think about as much, sometimes, when we're putting a new trick out, but then I suppose their argument could be that, if you are writing original material, I mean, now I'm a magician, I do find writing original material without magic harder, because I've got nothing to fall back on, but when you're first starting out, there are people that do magic, that don't do magic on stage, that do other stuff on stage, to say to me, all right, the thought of a trick going wrong would terrify me too much, but then the thought of a gag going wrong, terrifies me, yeah, because you did stand-up, didn't you, at some point, did you? Yeah, I did, on and off for about a year in London, back in the late, no, early 2000s, and what I found was that, when I was on form, and I could improvise, and I was feeling, I was great, but I was not very good at writing material, but what, it worked really well, when I did generic material about animals, and sex, and drugs, you know, all that stuff, but quite quickly, I was hearing that, that wasn't the way to go, and it's the same with everything, you start doing generic stuff, whether it's magic and comedy, you know there is a easier way through, where the audience will respect you, but your peers won't, and that's a whole other conversation, so I think, I think it's also about finding your own voice, isn't it, like at the end of the day, when you start off, you know, you're doing, it's like with magic, you know, you try your coins, you try your cards, you try your mentalism, your stage, your minipad, I don't know, whatever, everything, until you kind of work out what you like, and what you don't like, and what becomes your voice, I think that's the big thing in stand-up, is the only way to try out, that's the difference between magic, is you can fiddle, you can be like, all right, I play with this, and stuff like that, and kind of casually perform it, you're not just sat with you, your friends and family, and be like, right, sit down here, okay, right, is this thing on, right, and just doing a five there. But that's a really good point, right, so if you're, this is why I think I find it so difficult sometimes, to decide what to throw out, and what to keep, because when I was hosting my own show a lot, I like the magic show, where I'd have the Greystones here, where they have, you know, John Archer, and Alan Uxman, and many, many people come up, and perform, I was hosting it, so my thing is, I tried different tricks every time, and they would all work on some level, but some of them just weren't really me, but it's hard to know when they're not really you, because you're trying them out in front of audiences, that are really generous and lovely, so they're always giving you the response, so you go, so it's harder to make, it's almost easier to take it out to harsh audiences, and then decide on that, but I think the key is, like you said, it's about your voice, and that isn't necessarily about the trick that suits you either, it's the what tricks do you feel comfortable, what is that thing, that the trick is you, what is that, you know, because sometimes it's not the style, that's the thing to find it isn't it, yeah, it's finding what you like about it, but also I think sometimes you can really like the idea of a trick, but you just don't know how to make it you, or make it in a more modern way, yeah, and I think like for me, I've got a big list of stuff like that, especially like the old classics and things, but I'm like well, but if I did it, exactly as it is now, or in what we know it as, it just doesn't like, look at it like what, for example, like a pom-pom stick, if I can walk on stage with a pom-pom stick, but it can be a bit, I've always loved that, oh lovely, but I suppose it can, that's where I think it does have to be, what can I do with this, either to make it funny, genuinely funny, I don't mean just the usual, oh look how naff I am, which is, you know, the one gag and don't get along, I've done it many a time, I think John's a great example of this, of like finding material, that he really hones in to, one, make his own, but also two, just like not just grabbing every new thing, like he'll work on something, and be like, oh I want to do this, and then it'll take time before he kind of effects it, and starts to make it his own, and he'll dial it in basically, rather than just, you know, a load of magicians, oh I'm putting a new show together, I heard that was a big thing, about the fringe, like last year, because I went, I didn't go to the fringe, but I went to Edinburgh, and the amount of magic forces, that were there and everything, and then just people just doing shows, and just basically, they just pop to the magic shop, really, they're all doing, yeah, Rubik's Cubes and Toxic Plus, it's like that, both of which are in my show, but it's like somebody posted on the magicians, only the other day, and being like, oh, something about Toxic Plus or whatever, how do people do it, and I'm like, at the end of the show, in every show, so just don't bother doing it. Yeah, well that's the thing, and I think, so I think, if it feels like I'm making excuses here, to me, and this is only to me, I think there is a difference, I feel the need, to be more original and creative, if I'm doing my own show, and I have closed the show with Toxic Plus, than if I'm doing my own show at a corporate, or something, do you know what I mean, I don't know whether that's good or bad, but if I'm doing, say I'm doing an Edinburgh show, I haven't done one, but if I was doing an Edinburgh show, or my show at the Greystone, my show, I wanted to have meaning, it meant a lot to me, and that's the show I'd love to work on, for years and years and years, and become the thing I do, for me, that's the creative, one for the soul, yeah, whereas rocking up at a corporate, they're kind of watching you, but they don't really care who you are, you know when somebody says to me, who was a magician, a week later, they're going to say, they don't know, so then I'm a little bit more, likely to say, all right, what's going to work in this environment, and not be as fussy about it, I'm not going to nick stuff, but I'm not that as bothered about, yeah, you're not being compared to anybody, I think that's the difference, isn't it, whereas if you're on, if you're doing a fringe, something like that, you know, you're competing between, a lot of magicians, you know, hundreds sometimes, and I think that's the difference, is now, right, what sets you apart, what sets your show apart, like, how are you standing out, and not just, you know, falling in with the crowd and stuff, and seems to be in a sheet really, yeah, and it's been noticed, for quite a while, there wasn't enough of it, like to us, there was a lot of that going on, but actually to lay people, there wasn't, you know, yeah, but that, that comic, oh, what's he called again, the, the guy that did the, the thing about magicians on Britain's Got Talent, oh, yeah, that was it, yeah, that was a really good example of it, and then have you seen the, Daniel Sloss clip, that's coming, doing it's round about magicians as well, no, oh, I'll send you that after and stuff, no, this is a different one, Jack would tell me about the other day, I'll have to send it to you, um, and basically it's like, oh, in short, um, he's kind of just saying that, you know, I'm, I'm happy not being like the best performer ever, but I know that I'll always be better than a magician, and then he's just basically, just goes after magicians or something, and he's like, oh, have you, have you ever seen a magician that's not autistic, is like trying to find a comic that's not got depression, I really, yeah, great, yeah, and, but it's a really good, like little, little minute, two minutes, and just like, yeah, okay, I'm gonna have a look, you know, comics will know this as well, that, of course, that's fine, that generalization is, we know that the generalization, and we know we've got, there's a lot to laugh about, and there's a lot to, yeah, it sounds like I'm shooting on comics, but I'm not, I'm not even shooting on comics, because like, they, you know, like, as I say, that's, that's like a massive part of my world as well, um, although, I see it with them, there's, there's still a lot of, as just the same is with magicians, there's a lot of lazy comics out there as well, but, yeah, just even if they're still finding the voice, or just get an ego straight away, and, yeah, they just need to take a step back, and I want to differentiate as well, between that, you know, that thing of putting your show together, and, I don't really think, you know, I think if you've got close-up gigs, I'm not, I don't really mind if people are original or not, they're doing two and a half hours at a corporate, just do what works, you know, it's like, it's hard, yeah, unless you're on like a, a multi-man gig, yeah, like, what tricks are you doing, you all pull out double-crossers, yeah, you want enough stuff, don't you, you want enough stuff to be able to go, yeah, and that doesn't do it, or, and, and please, could, you know, when you go to a table, can you not tell them all to clap and cheer for no reason for the first five minutes, because I'm not going to do that, and that's going to make it look ----, yeah, just begging for that applause, isn't it, yeah, which I do on the street to get your audience, but I hate it when, it's fine, but you know, when people go, okay, everybody clap, cheer for no reason, so the people over there think I'm brilliant, and it's quite a funny gag, but you can't go, have I got to do that now, yeah, and then you come to a comparing contest, don't it, you're all just like, oh, you can cheer the loudest, it's like, well, you're just ******* asking them, so what's the point, yeah, it's like the people that end the shows, and be like, trying to beg for a standing ovation, no, and then they come off and go, got a standing ovation, it's like, no, you didn't, yeah, and they're like, oh, nailed that gig, I'm like, hmm, did you, I know, I'm going to repeat myself, if we go down that route, we're going to piss so many people off with these, I just know we are, oh, no, because no, and that's the thing, I think if anybody gets pissed off at that, I'm talking about myself here as well, I've done all, if I'm on stage, and I'm struggling, all that ---- goes out the window, I try not to, but if I don't, I'm like, oh, all that ******* generic, I try not to say stock lines, but yeah, as you say, sometimes you just like, you just get caught in the moment or something, or you just say it, and then I feel like, oh, I should have said that by myself, yeah, didn't mean to say that one, yeah, so talking, going back to the stuff that's released, and working things in, I think just to sort of finish off, and talk about a magic trick, I think bankable, because this is something I've, I haven't actually reviewed it this week, but I've used it, and played with it, and showed it a few people, that's one of those tricks, I think, because it's based on a routine that we know works, it's bank night, but it has this kind of moment, that is a gag, right, the thing of, they, they choose a different colour, whatever colour envelope, if you pull it out, it's got the prize in it, and it says, give Steve a high five, which is their thing, which is their, you know, Eric thing, I think, and the rest have got 50 pound notes in, you show them the window, people don't have to just do that description, just don't know what it is, but if they haven't, it's bankable by Eric Stevens, that's right, I keep getting put out by Trick Trick Boom, Eric Stevens and Trick Trick Boom, yeah, but the moment, well, it's easy to say that the moment is the gag, because the gag thing, it's almost like the Williams and Rocky Bakun thing, it's like, there's 50 pound note in each one, that they see that they haven't chosen, and there's just says, you've won a high five or whatever, and then you say, do you want to have another go, they say yes, if you hold your hand up for a high five, now, that, took me a few goes, to get the laugh, because, the trick is stronger than we remember, the trick is potentially stronger than we think, we've seen it so many times, but it is genuinely, like people go, ****, how did I not get the 50 quid one, it looked strong, and when they're still responding from that, if you then do a gag, when they're still trying to work out internally, how it's worked, then the gag isn't kind of noticed, and that's why I think a lot of people, I've seen on the Facebook page and online, most people say it's brilliant, everybody's saying they're loving it, but, I think that's going to be one of them, isn't it, it's going to be like, everybody's going to be having it in their set, and I think, how many people are going to, change it from what it is as well, or like, are they just going to, do it stock as is and, be a mass magician basically, where you just lost in the crowd, yeah, but that's, but then yeah, I probably will for a bit, you know, until uncomfortable, and, because, again I'm not, I'm not saying it's good to, do it straight out the box, but if it works, it might get to a point where I kind of think, everything I add to it isn't going to be as good, so maybe I just have a laugh with them, and add my own personality into it, or whatever, or, if I can't get the laugh with it, because I think that'll be the case for some people, it's just that, that timing of the gag might not suit them, just do it as a trick, or get the laugh somewhere else, or do something else, or, get the laugh by winding them up, and trying to get in the cheesy yellow one, and all that, yeah, I think there's a lot of buy play into it isn't there really, and I like the fact that, it's not, you can build it up as big as you want, or you can build up as small as you want, you know, so you don't have to do all, is it five envelopes, four envelopes, you have to do all of them, you can do it with, you can do it with two envelopes if you want, you know, you could add more to it, you could do a stage version of it, like, yeah, you don't have to reveal, the money inside of it, you know, you could have something else, or, whatever and stuff, and, yeah, I think there's quite a few nice things, that you can kind of, modulate it to, to be your own, and play around with it, Toby just told me an idea, that we can't have on here, not because it's an original one, and, someone else does a thing, with it, but what, the point of it is, that it doesn't have to be the notes, and I think people on the Facebook page, have started coming out with a really nice idea, and it is such a simple idea, it's the same trick right, it's a different method, and it's got the gag, and it's got a different presentation, because it's got the windows in the thing, however, that thing of, Bank Night not having to be, I've won the money, or you haven't, and it isn't like that, because this is with humour, which is very different, that thing is shown at the end, with the windows, in fact it's better than opening, I think you touch on that don't you, on the, on the score, like, that's why Looch changed it, because sometimes with the money, I think it can be come across as a bit kind of like, haha look what I've won, and yeah, you've lost, you know it's, it's a bit downplaying to the spectator isn't it, whereas at least with Looch's, it's not that, because it's, you know it's, you're not even, no money's involved, and then with this as well, he's, it's not about the money as well, it's that high five, you're building up as if that's the better thing, and yeah, yeah, and if you get it right, that moment is, it is like the Williamson, Rocky Raccoon thing, where he just, he does the thing, it's just you put your finger up his butt, and you wiggle it, yeah do you want to go, throw the routine away, walk towards him, it's such a great moment, but the timing has to be right, and the thing about that is, that's not after a really clever magic trick, and I always felt that, finishing a street show, with the cups and balls for me, never worked, because they were going, where the **** did he get that melon, under the hat, because most of them believe it, and I don't think it arrived there by magic, and as they're thinking that, they're not thinking that was great, I want to pay him, so, too strong basically, too strong, you know, I think, so the way you do it, if you kind of do a big speech of it or something, but, but I think that's the case with a lot of this stuff, some people would do a gag that they thought of, that's brilliant, go why isn't he getting a laugh, because people can't, think of those two things at the same time, they can't relax enough to laugh, they might laugh at the, you need that breathing room don't you, essentially, yeah, because they're laughing at the 50s, you know, yeah, and if you say a gag sometimes, it's like, oh a joke, you know, before you move on to the next bit, you need to let it settle, you know, that's a massive thing, comedy of, you know, you've got to say it, let it breathe, and then move on, or say your tag or something, that goes on the end of it all, yeah, otherwise you're just losing it all, and it's, it's such a cliche isn't it, even the gag about timing, you know that everybody does, people know that humans timing, and everything's timing, but, but actually we forget sometimes, and we go, why didn't that work, it's not a good trick, and you go, no, it's not, that hasn't happened with bankroll, but it has happened with some tricks, and I say, no, it's not because it's a bad trick, it could be that it doesn't suit you, but it might be that, you've got to frame that moment, I always remember, I spent so long learning the top shot, Leonard Green's top shot, and I finally got it, and I performed it, and it got very little response, and it's because they kind of missed it, I didn't, there wasn't enough space before it happened, I didn't frame it, because I was so nervous about doing it, that I just kind of went, boom, and done it, and just wanted to get out of the way, and they weren't looking after time, you know what I mean, now it's kind of like, I still screw it up, but I'll get them staring at that deck, and I'll go, bang, and it'll come out, and so if I drop it, fine, you know, but, but it's a totally different, you can just be overwhelmed, isn't it, you know, they're just overwhelmed, by seeing too much, you just kind of, trick, or gag, gag, and it's like, no, you need to, you know, it's, it's just like, you're eating your food too quick, you know, you're not going to enjoy it, so you need to, savour the little bits, and stuff, and then, you know, know when to, deliver like, the ending, or the final bit, yeah, and I would say people would, it's almost like a throwaway thought, isn't it, with bankable, that end bit, is like, the routine's over, and then you just go in, as one last little bit, and you're like, oh, do you want another go, and then that's when you, you know, Yeah, well, that's another thing, and, because I don't want people to think of, I always, I always get so worried about, I always get so worried about people not liking me, but I don't want people to think I'm talking about this, because I'm friends with Noel, I'm talking about it, because everybody's talking about it, I'm talking about it, because I think that there are things to talk about, that aren't just, is it a good trick or not, and the way I thought, only working with me, because I couldn't get that type, that I was doing that, and I wasn't getting the laugh, was, I'd finish a trick, and walk away, and almost come back, I feel really bad, do you want another go, so everything's done, or, I think that'd be really nice, like, do a trick, and do a lot more, around that table, you're just leaning, you know, as you're walking past, and they're just pointing to you, or something, I mean, I wouldn't even always do it all, it's just, if they walk past, and they point at you, and they're like, oh, can you show us another, and you're like, do you want another go, then you just walk, high five, walk off again, yeah, like, yeah, but that's the thing, that's fun, isn't it, trying it, because again, we've got, we're so, privileged, to have, the, the safety net, of it being a good trick, anyway, so we can play, with those things, if the thing don't get laughed, it doesn't matter, doesn't it, because tricks still work, so it's, I think that's why a lot of people, do invisible back, isn't it, because it's so easy, and it's so strong, that it just allows them, to play with all the, I mean, it's not like they do play, with other routines for it, it's still just doing, the standard thing, but yeah, I think it allows them, to do that, because, you know, you don't have to put, too much effort, and that's what, bankable is, you don't have to think, too much about the routine, it's, would you say it's self, I wouldn't say it's like, fully self-working, but it is very like, yeah, it's self-contained, basically, yeah, it's simple, and you don't really have, to think too much about it, that it allows you, to build that, performance and routine, and not worry about, you know, if you're doing some, technical slight, or got double undercut, and then, yeah, pass, no, it's super, you know, palm something out, yeah, it's just none of that, but you still screw it up, as I have done, but that's because I, I didn't really, but I did kind of it, you know, just, just by kind of get, that thing happens, doesn't there, when you are coming, to weather check, and sometimes you can go, That is where the podcast ends, it ends abruptly, because Steve, had to go off, and have a little wee wee, basically, as the bladder of a child, but don't worry, in episode three, we do finish, the whole episode, as it's supposed to be, I made sure he had, a little try beforehand, and, we made it to the end, thanks for subscribing, hope you enjoyed this episode, and we will catch you, in the next one.