The Tech House Scene EXPOSED - Chapter & Verse Reveals All!

Sometimes I can get $1,000 a show, sometimes I can get $15,000. I'm just making money now, just now. Like playing in a booth, everyone knows playing in a booth you don't get paid a lot of money for. Everyone knows that. Something that you think is going to do great sometimes does crap. I've got some great songs which have done nothing and I've got some ---- songs which have done real good. People are most critical on themselves. What you will tend to find is if you are doing something yourself and you're pushing yourself and you are kind of like sacrificing other things to push yourself, other people, when you start doing well, will not particularly like it. So guys, I am chapter and verse DJ and producer from Doncaster. I recently did a podcast with Crossfader and here I am to answer your questions. Do you ever produce or just play other people's music? Hope you pay them every time you play their tracks and get paid for it. I'm not quite sure what that question means. The bottom bit. The first bit, I work with other people, yes. I won't be disclosing that. And I do occasionally play other people's music, but I don't base that on who they are. I base that purely on the song. So if, for example, Fisher sent me a song and asked me to play it, I genuinely wouldn't necessarily play it if I didn't like it. A lot of people do in this industry. This industry is made up of people that basically carry each other and that's how they make their careers. I'm different to that. I don't do that. I play what I want. If I think it's good, I will play it. I mainly try to play my own stuff and I'd encourage other people to do that because if you've got the shows, you might as well kind of showcase your own music. So if you've got music, play it. If you've got any gaps, play other people's. That's what I'd say. Next question. Who is this guy? Good question. I ask myself that on a regular basis. Who's this guy and how did he get his first gig at EDC? So in this industry, it's really difficult to get an agent. I managed to get an agent who is what I would call the best agent in America. Chad Cohen from UTA and Chad had a connect at Insomniac. Insomniac run EDC and that's how I got my first show. EDC gig was actually a late, late gig. It was right at the end of the set. So like a closing, maybe like 4.30 till 5.30 but it was still busy and it was still good. Yeah, and I got some great footage. So yeah, that's the answer to that one. Next question. Great interview, but how can you play at 1-2-3, 1-2-4? Feels way too slow for me. 1-40 to 1-4-6 is just right. I don't know what genre you're playing to play 1-40, 1-4-6. I can only assume techno or some dubstep maybe. But tech house is normally 1-2-2-ish to 1-30-ish. So if you start playing tech house really fast at 1-40 plus, there's too much in it. It's going to sound like a car crash. So my answer to your question is, I'll continue to play in the region of 1-2-3 to 1-2-8 probably and not go to 1-40 because that is bananas to play in tech house. Next question, please. What's the hack? The big hack in this industry is to build a fan base. The trick is to start somewhere, whether it be Facebook, TikTok or Instagram, try and start with one. So focus on one. So don't be like, right, today I'm going to grow all my social media. I'm going to grow my Spotify. I'm going to do everything. Start with one and once you've got one and you've built it, then go on to something else because everything's different. Spotify works different to SoundCloud, works different to Instagram, etc. I started with Instagram. It depends who you are. A lot of the older kind of DJs have been around for a long time, started with SoundCloud, you know? And so if you start with one and get it right, then you can see what works for that. And generally, theoretically, it's normally the same. It's just slight tweaks, whether you're doing something like TikTok or whether you're doing something SoundCloud, whether you're doing something like YouTube. They are based on interaction. So generally, they are technically the same. Right, next question. Over here, USA, house has taken a backseat to EDM. How would you adapt your playlist for each market? That's a good question. When I go to different places, I do play different music. But I always make sure I've got enough music, depending on the situation. Because one tip is this, you never know what you're going to walk into. You might think, oh, I'm going to go to Brazil and I'm going to walk into underground tribal beats, yeah? You might think I'm going to go to Tulum and walk into melodic techno. That is not necessarily the case. I've seen this so many times. I've been to shows and I've made the mistake of taking, that look, that's going to be underground tech house. And I've played an underground tech house set and they've not come for that, they've come for my tech house. So I would always definitely say, each market is different and you don't necessarily know what that market's going to be like till you get there. But, you know, house, EDM, my stuff, I would class as being a cross between tech house and EDM. My stuff's very unique, but it's got a lot of influences from EDM. So I feel like I can play, I play with a lot of EDM artists. Do Each Of Vegas Like Mike, for example. You know, I do stuff, I do shows with them and the stuff always works that I play. So there's a new wave of tech house and house, really. And that's what's starting to really develop in America. And you'll see big shows from people like Dom Dollar, John Summit, James Hype, and they're all tech house. So next question. What's your skincare routine? The trick is with my skin, I don't put anything on it, just water, nothing, no chemicals around here. What did you do as far as your sound to try to stand out from the rest? Right, so chapter and verse has always been a kind of progressive sound, which has gone through lots of different stages. A lot of the stuff that I've been through and the stage I've been through, I haven't made public. I've been through a stage where I was doing tech house and I had some more tech now than I was doing a bit of progressive. But I've always kind of kept that behind closed doors and be very careful to keep everything on brand. I kind of think when you're doing your sound, it's a question of trial and error and you don't be afraid to do stuff. Just because you do stuff doesn't mean you've changed your sound. Just because you've done something, you might not necessarily put it out. You might say, all right, I've done that. I like that, but it's not along the lines of what my project's about. You know, a lot of the stuff I don't, I'm really, really apprehensive when I put something out which is not tech house or my fans are tech house. And then again, I'm really apprehensive not to keep everything too samey. So it's a really interesting question. Next one. Right, next question is, how do you organize your sets and choose what you want to play? How did you do it in the past and what tips have you picked up along the way? Now, this is a good question. In the past, I've been at home. I'm thinking, right, I've got an hour to play. Let's say two and a half, three minutes a song. And so I need 20 songs. I've rehearsed it. I've decided what I'm going to play. And then I've played it in that order. In my experience, that doesn't work. And here is why. Firstly, the people before you can play anything. So unless you're going to play your own music alone, the person before you could have played five of the songs that you've played, which creates a massive problem if you've got a predefined playlist. The best bit of advice I can do and give you is if you're playing a set, have three playlists. So one playlist, which is made up of maybe 60, 80 songs for maybe an hour or two. And try to have a selection and a group of keys. So if you do try and mix something at the time and it doesn't work, and that occasionally does happen with songs, they don't, for whatever frequency reason, they don't work, you've got a backup plan. And then underneath that, I'd have another playlist of underground tunes, just in case, you know, the show is different to what you expect. And then underneath, I'd have a massive playlist of loads of different bits, just in case. So I'd always, I always have three playlists now. One of about 56, 70, one of a load of underground stuff, just like random underground stuff. And then one of just a mixture of all different, depending on the situation, depending on what the crowd like. It's really hard to say. I go to a lot of places for the first time. Like when I went to Italy, I went there for the first time, you know, Italians are really up on the music. They're really cool at what they do. So I'm thinking, what's the show going to be like? When I sit still to listen to it, it was such an eclectic mix and I just play my own stuff. But you know, that comes with experience. You can't just walk in somewhere and just, you know, start banging all your own tunes out. Can you become a DJ without posting content? No, I'll give you an example of this. So you probably know a song called Maria Maria from an artist called Tech It Deep. Right, Tech It Deep was never an artist, right? Tech It Deep was a blog. And what they did is they had a fan base because he had a fan base. They then got someone to make a tune and then they released that tune and that tune blew up because they had the fan base to initially push that tune. Without the fan base, they would not have had a tune. You know, in terms of can you be a DJ without posting content? I don't know, not at all. Just because everybody wants to see what you're doing, you know, and everybody, you know, it kind of carries about with each other. But how are you going to get your songs out there? You know, how are people going to know you are and who's going to book you if you've got no fans? If you've got no content, you're going to get no fans because no one's going to be interested. They're going to, if you have got a thousand people, they're going to start leaving you without content. Should a new artist release independently or try to get singles with labels? Right, my tip here, this is a good question. My tip here is this. Do not release independently. Use whatever labels you can to raid their fan bases and raid the artist's fan base. For example, Repopulate Mars has Lee Foss and Kacin, who is the A&R. They will play your music if they sign your music. James Hype will play your music if he signs his stereo hype. So use those people to grow your own fan base. Doing it independently is absolutely crazy. Spotify will look at labels. Spotify is getting more difficult. Independent releasing is okay. You're better off trying to get with labels. And I know it's difficult because people keep saying no and people don't even listen to demos. But with labels, you've just got to keep trying. I tried to get them to Repopulate Mars. I sent a hundred tunes to Repopulate Mars, one after the other. I've sent over 500 tunes to Defected. I've never got on there. Even today, I can't get on there. So what? I will keep sending them and I continue to try and penetrate new markets through labels. I've got my own label. I can release stuff on my own label. I've got my own label for emergencies because I can release something in a week or in two weeks. And a lot of labels are stacked up till the end of the year or they're stacked up six months in advance. But definitely, if you're new, keep trying to get on labels and keep trying to get... The bigger the fan base, the better. And that's how I grew because I went from label to label to label. I got Sonny De Federe to play my stuff because I went on Solitoko. I got Gorgon City to play because I went on Realm. You need to get up with the knowledge and know who's who and know what labels belong to who. You know, I got Noizu to play. You know, I got on Tekne, a track on Tekne with Noizu. I got two on Tekne. And they both did really well because I got him to play some footage and then I sponsored the footage. And they both did really well, the songs. That label is run by Infectious PR, you know, as is Solitoko, as is Realm. But that footage gave me like a platform because at the time, Noizu was a lot bigger than me. So it gave me a platform to promote. And what I did, I sponsored him playing it. And that's one big thing. Just do what, you know, use your... I did the same with Sonny Federe. You know, I sponsored Sonny Federe to play my track as well because people recognise him, they don't recognise me. So they hear the music and then you get the odd follower. So next question. This is an interesting one because what I will say is this, is if you expect to make a lot of money DJing at even my level, which is reasonably high, then that's not going to happen. Most of my money comes from music, revenues from publishing, revenues from the songs itself, advances, show money can be very difficult. For example, I went and played in Finland this weekend to 600 people. I didn't get paid a great deal of money for it, but it was amazing show. Amazing show, grateful people. You know, in Finland, the scene's quite small. If you're going to do it for the money, don't do it. It's going to take you a long time to make any money. I'm just making money now, just now. And I've got decent sized record deals and money from different revenues. So you want to talk about monetary amounts. Sometimes I can get $1,000 a show. Sometimes I can get 15. If I get, for example, 10 for playing in America, do I make any money? No. If I get $10,000 in America, revenue take a third. That leaves it to $7,000. Five and a half, 6,000 pound, the flights are 1,500. You know, it goes quick. It's kind of like you're building and you've got to keep building and you've got to be prepared to take some hits and some losses because I've done a lot of shows and done a lot of losses. You know, even in the recent last 12 months, you know, not going to make a massive amount on gigs. But if you're at the gig, you get the content. Yeah, it's all about putting everything together and moving forward until you become, you know, like my next record deal's a lot bigger because I've got the shows, because I've pushed the content, because I've done everything. You know, and it's all about going out there and being willing, like playing in Ibiza. Everyone knows playing in Ibiza, you don't get paid a lot of money for. Everyone knows that. Playing in the UK, you don't get paid a lot of money for. The shows aren't big enough. There's not enough revenue there and everything's expensive to put on. The shows are expensive to put on. But you know, if you're willing to kind of like look at it all together and say, right, well, I'm willing to suffer that, you know, suffer that just to kind of grow my profile or whatever, that's the way to do it. What gave you the push to finally get into being a DJ? Was it your dream? No. It all came about really quick. So I went to a few shows in Leeds, to an Elrow and to a Michael Bibby show and to a Cluny, when Cluny was there. I went to Ibiza a couple of times, I listened to the music, I liked it. And that was, it was a really quick process. But as I started getting into it, I love kind of like the grind that surrounds it as well. So like, I love like being able to do all these new things that I've never done before. So crossfading, you say, you say let's go at the end of all your Instagram stories, isn't that a catchphrase? Right, I'll tell you where I got that from, Tita Lau, right? She like penetrated my mind with let's go. And like, kind of like, I started saying it and people started like laughing and smiling and I was like, oh, people like it. But I've got a new song called Just Let Go coming out in a month on Tiesto's label Musical Freedom. That song is going to be massive. Let's go. Yeah, let's go. So thanks Tia. How did you find the chapter and verse signature sound? Now, this is really interesting question because with any sound, it's very difficult to say you've got a sound when it's your own. And it's also very difficult to know when you've got to that sound. So how do you know kind of like that style is then yours? It's really difficult. Dreams was fundamentally a reference track from Martin Hyking, Hooked. And then from that, kind of like, if you listen to what I'm doing now, it's completely different to Dreams. You know, is my sound now my signature or is Dreams my signature? Like the sound things, there's certain things that I put in certain places which people would associate with chapter and verse, which is why they say it's a sound. You know, like I take the bass out every eight bars, I put in a ride every, you know, I use the same hat, you know, on the drop. You tend to get the same fireball riser. You tend to get the same kind of serum in bass line. You know, it tends to be a hard kind of Fisher kick which might steal from Fisher now. But that's an interesting question because you never know when you sound, when you've got to your sound. And when you've got to your sound, where do you go from there? Keep doing the same thing. No, people get bored. What I found is this, like when I've tried to go away from kind of what I feel like making and what I feel is always working when people try to force me to, like labels and things, try to get me to go away from what I'm doing. That doesn't work. I've always found the best thing to do is what you want to do yourself. That's the way to do it and just stick with it. How does one go about getting samples approved from a big name artist like 57 for example? So clearance is a lot simpler than people make it out to be. Clearance comes in two parts. So you've got to clear the master and you've got to clear the publishing. People think, do I go to a label and clear the label that signed the tune? That's actually nothing to do with it. The label that signed the tune is nothing to do with it because they probably don't own the master anymore. It is the artist and the publisher. So I tend to get, once it gets re-sung, the master is then clear because you don't have to clear the master if something's re-sung. So I tend to re-sing everything and then only clear the publishing and to find out who publishes, I can quickly tell you. So to find out who published something, you can either do one of two things. Type the song into Google and then it'll come up with the name of the song and click on more lyrics. At the bottom of the page, it will say the lyrics belong to someone like Warner or someone like Sony or whatever. Or you can go into PRS. If you've got PRS, search works and do it that way and look at the publishers. Then you can contact the publishers. It's quite simple to contact publishers. Any reasonable manager or it's actually possible to do it on the website as well. So clear publishing is quite simple and a lot of people don't do it now. I do every single one because the labels I'm with won't risk being sued but a lot of people, a lot of the bigger labels aren't clearing anything these days. What tends to happen when you do something that's big is if it's a full on cover, what they try to do is they take all the publishing but you retain the master. But if you get something that is like that they see as being valuable, like this 50 cent one, they only want it so I'm not quite sure I'm supposed to be disclosing. But so I keep the publishing because I'm using the 50 cent riff and I've got somebody to write a new top line in it so I need to give them publishing. More often than not, they'll sign it off as a full cover. There's some legal loophole which allows you to say it's a full cover. But if you put a full cover out, you've got to get the master re-sung or the master replayed and you can't attempt to clear it. If you attempt to clear it, they then know about it and then they will tell you you're not allowed to release it which is what's happened to me a couple of times. Right, this is a good question. How do you know if your tracks are going to do well or not? Market research. So if you look at what I do, I always go on Instagram and preview everything that I make, right, everything. And that is not for me to like say look how I made this, look how fast I can do this, look this, not for that. It is for me to see what feedback I get. Once I get the feedback, I generally got however small, if I get 100 comments for example, however small compared to my following, the amount of response I get, I still get amount of response that I can see what people generally think to it. And then as well, I send it to a lot of different labels and see how many people snap it up. If someone snaps it up quick, I know it's good. If four or five come, I know it's really good. You know, and that's what I tend to do. So I tend, I'm not the one who decides if something's good to other people. You know, the fans, I don't really like to call them fans, but the listener is the person that decides if it's good or not. When I put Just Let Go, the one that's coming out of Musical Freedom, I put that on Instagram, I got a lot of comments. I knew it was good. If I want to do that track, It came out really quick as well. I sent it to a few labels and they all wanted to sign it. And they're trying to argue about who's going to sign it. But you know, it's difficult. I've got a lot of tracks. I make a lot of tracks. You know, what does well is pot luck. You never know. Something that you think is going to do great, sometimes just crap. I've got some great songs which have done nothing. And I've got some ---- songs which have done real good. So the people that decide, not me. The hardest obstacle in your career, myself and yourself. And that's a fact. A lot of things that I think have caused me a problem or are going to cause a problem, don't. Sort of in my own mind, it's kind of like, oh, this is going to... No, I won't get that because of this. I won't get that because of that. As soon as I got my mindset into the fact that, right, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do this. I'm not bothered about it. If something stands in my way, as in, you're not part of this management or you're not in this clique or whatever, I just kind of push it to one side and then kind of do my own thing. So I don't really... You could say that, look, I started when I was 40. Whatever it is, there's always a way to get past it. Obstacles are irrelevant if there's loads of space in front of you. If you've got a phone in front of you there and you've got all this space here, what's that? It's just that, it doesn't matter, does it? You concentrate on the things which are in front of you, not on one obstacle, not on two obstacles because they're not really relevant unless you make them a big deal yourself. Then they kind of spend all your time focusing on some obstacles rather than focusing on what you're doing. If I get a problem, if I get an issue, I kind of see it as reg-rad to a ball. I kind of love it. If they stop me doing something, it kind of makes it so much easier for me because it kind of makes it... There's no one like someone who's trying to prove a point. So if that label says no to me, I'll go away and make the song better and give it another label and hope it does better on the other label. Well, you've turned it down. You know what I mean? When I did Lights Go Out, no one had signed it and this label wanted to take it on a... They said it wasn't good enough for a single, but they take it on a compilation for a sub-label. I was like, bro, this song's great, it's good. I'm getting loads of feedback from it, playing it. People are playing it. By that point, Charmy and a few others were already playing it, but we're big artists. It's done 20 million now. But the proof's always in the pudding. What's the first thing to do if you've just started DJing and you feel overwhelmed? Right, so basically, I said this yesterday in a tweet and it's like this. When you're DJing, because you're putting yourself out there, it's really personal. And if you mess up, you can really fall out with it really quick. What I would say is, it's all a process and all part of a journey, so you're going to have ups and downs, but you've got to prepare to surf the wave. And sometimes it's overwhelming. I go to shows and I'm like, oh my God, I went to a show in America and there was a DJ, I'm not going to mention his name, the DJ was stood behind me. I was like, I'm not having any sleep for 24 hours and I stopped the music at that big show. And I was just stood there, just like, I mean, I just put it back on pretty quick. But this has happened a few months ago. It happens to everybody and people do get overwhelmed. You're only human. But nobody expects any different. No one expects you to go and be perfectly... If you just start a DJ, you're not going to get any ----. That's not how it is. It's not that no one's watching. No one's going to give you grief because you just started. They're going to say, if I go to any shows and everyone's just started, I'll be like, how's it going, bro? That was wicked. That was cool. And it's not about point scoring against smaller DJs. What kind of douche would do that? Anybody I see that DJs before me or DJs after me or anything like that, whatever happens, people are most critical on themselves. The listener, the audience, don't care a thing. They don't care if you've clanged a couple of songs. They don't care if you stop the music. They don't even know. It could be a glitch in the speakers. They don't know. It could be anything. They've got no idea. They're just normal people listening to music. So don't be hard on yourself. Just chill. I like what you said as well in the podcast, where you stopped playing to your earlier songs because you didn't like them. I think it's a case of when you've got your own music, you listen to it a thousand times and every one of your listeners and readers will say the same thing. When you've got a song, you listen to it, see if you can make it better over and over and over again. One thing I would say is definitely don't bother doing that. You know, now I listen to my songs a couple of times and leave them and carry on with something else. It's just not necessary. It doesn't serve any purpose apart from it becomes more monotonous. And generally, you tend to dislike them for no reason. Just because you've heard it so many times. Natural talent versus work ethic, which is more important? Well, that's easy. Ethic. Work. Look at James Hype. Look at what he does every day. Look at his post that he did about, look, this is what I'm doing. You know, I'm sat in the studio all the time. He just graphs, man. Like with me, I just work. And if I, because you work so much, eventually something's got to give. I know some talented musicians who are grade eight piano, who can play this, play that, who can't write a song, can't produce anything. You know, so every single time, the question is, are you willing to work? And the answer to the question is, most people aren't. They think they can either buy the way in, or there's an easy way, or there's a quick way, and there's not. You know, if I told you the things that I do on a daily basis, you would be bamboozled. And if I told you the stuff that I even do now, they're like legwork. They're like, you know, I haven't got a big team around me. I've got a manager, Nick, a red light, and I've got an agent, and an agent in the UK, an agent in the US. That's it. I ain't got a big team. All this stuff that I do, all the people, all the messages, everything, all the music, you know, but the stuff I do on a daily basis is proper donkey work, but you've got to be prepared to do it, and I am still prepared to do it, and I will never change the way I operate. On Instagram, Instagram is a big thing for me, but I graphed that Instagram account, and without graphing it, I stopped a few weeks ago to see what happened. It just went down. It didn't stay as it was. It went down, because every day you lose. This is what happens in Instagram. Every day you lose. I lose 50 followers every day, but I get 150. I stop doing what I'm doing. I lose me 150, and I just lose me 50, so I don't gain. That's why you've got to keep putting stuff out. You've just got to be willing to keep doing stuff and keep kind of putting yourself out there. A lot of people are kind of like, you know, what if this? What if that? If it don't work, you can take it down, you know, but in my experience, I put out as much as I can, mate, literally. People are like, oh, you're crazy putting so much music out by labels. You're crazy putting so much stuff on Instagram, and I'm like, let me be. Do you know what I mean? When I've changed and done what other people have told me and what I don't think is correct, it hasn't gone the right way for me. I'd just say, just do what you think. Go with what you've got and do what you think is right, because that's probably what's right for you, and probably will work for you, what you think is right, if you understand what I mean. What about a collab with an up-and-coming artist? Yeah, that's a good question. It puts me in a difficult position, really, because the problem with that is, when you've got such, and I could be completely honest about this, when you've got such big artists who are offering you such big exposure without being funny, why would I do it? And I'm not trying to lie. I'm trying to be completely honest. Like, why? And they say, oh, well, you can bring another artist up. Well, bringing one artist up is not going to make a great deal of difference to the entire world, is it? But me doing a collaboration with Tiesto is going to change my career. So what do I do? Do you know what I'm saying? And it's not only that. If I do, then what I would class, I'm probably going to get a bit of hate for this, but if I do then, if I would class go backwards, then those people who are bigger are going to look at me and go, well, hang on a minute. He's doing artists with him, him, him, and him who have not done very much. Why would I want to do it with him? And I'm very protective about the brand and what I do. I'm very protective about the labels that I go on now. And I'm very protective about the artists that I work with. But that's not a personal thing. I mean, because my schedule is so full, everything, every one of my releases is really precious. I'm afraid. I'm afraid this industry is cutthroat. I'm afraid that's how that is. That's the way they want to include the question. It's up to you. When you're looking to work with bigger artists, do you reach out to them? Do they come to you? Is it labels putting names and names together? One thing that I would say about music as a whole is concentrate on what you're doing yourself. Grow your fan base, grow your following, and then let people come to you because it gives you such more, such a lot more power. I've never, you know, every collab that I've done with Stevie Okay, with Dimitri, with whoever, they've always come to me. And that gives me kind of like, more satisfaction and kind of like tells me that I'm doing things right. But it all comes from me grafting and getting myself out there and producing quality content and a quality product that people want. Yeah, fair enough. You know, it's a bit cutthroat, but that's how it is. Right, next question. Can someone starting out in their late 30s have a chance to become successful in this industry? I started when I was 38 and a half. So the answer to the question is yes, and I have proved it. So am I successful? I'm getting there. I feel like I'm at the start of my journey still, but I'm doing okay. So it's definitely possible if you're willing to do the work. And like I say, that makes, that's what makes a difference. You know, everybody willing to graft it all the time. I remember, I remember Scott Lowe said to me once, he said to me, he said, Barry, he said, I have so many people who have come into this studio with me to learn music. I have so many people who I've seen, like that guy works with the biggest, like musicians in the world. He works with the biggest artists in the world. He said to me, Barry, he said, there's only one chance that you've got, yeah? He says, you can't do it and give it 20, 30%, give it 40%, give it 50%. It's not good enough. You've got to throw the kitchen sink at it. He said, the only chance you have got is if you give this 110%. And that was kind of the start for me. And I thought, well, yeah, I'll just give it all, give everything. You know, and I threw the, yeah, it is possible when you're in your late 30s to have a chance to be successful. I've done it. But when I did it, I had no plan B. I threw the kitchen sink at it. I had a plan. I had another job. I stopped getting paid for that job and I've got a family and I had to make it work. And the only way to make it work was to throw the kitchen sink at it, you know, throw everything at it. Right, so next question. How do other people react to you being successful? If you follow my Instagram, you'll notice that I posted about this the other day. And what you will tend to find is if you are doing something yourself and you're pushing yourself and you are kind of like sacrificing other things to push yourself, other people, when you start doing well, will not particularly like it. But you have to be prepared for that and you have to be prepared to get rid of those people. So people will naturally be jealous and it's not a thing like, it's not a thing like that people can really hide. It's kind of really obvious. And Instagram is a really good platform for seeing that. Like personally, I've seen a lot of artists who I would say have been a similar size to me two years ago and stopped supporting me. And it's very obvious. It doesn't matter to me. I just kind of like to keep going. But you will when you're doing things that, you know, even if you kind of got a show in a big club in Rotherham or Doncaster, for example, and your friends haven't, you will get people who don't like it. So you've got to be prepared for a little bit of hate if you're going to be successful. There's a lot, there's a lot of it in music and it boils down to real jealousy, to be fair. Keep it always positive vibes. So guys, that's the end of my questions. Thank you for watching. If you haven't seen the podcast yet, you can click here. And if you haven't followed me on Instagram, chapterversemusic. Thank you.