Behind the Scenes: The Duellists (Scott, 1977) with Keith Carradine and Harvey Keitel

Hi, I'm Kevin Reynolds, director, and I'm fortunate enough to be here today to talk with Ridley Scott about his little gem of a picture, The Duelist, which I first saw in 1978 when I was a kid, just starting to make films myself. And little did I realize that some 24 years later I'd be here talking with Ridley about a film that profoundly affected me, and had an enormous influence on me as a young filmmaker. The Duelist is a film that I would say probably 98% of the movie-going public has never had the opportunity to see, but it's magnificent. And to be able to sit here with a master filmmaker like Ridley and discuss what went into the picture and what some of his motivations were, and talk about it from a technical standpoint as a filmmaker, it's just a real pleasure for me. And I hope those of you that are interested in such things will enjoy it as well. So without further ado, here's Ridley Scott. So Ridley, can you tell me what the genesis of the project was? This was the fourth attempt to do a feature film. And I finally met with Jerry Vaughn Hughes, and Jerry had written one more thing prior to this for me called The Gunpowder Plot. And I tried with that and failed. The Guy Fawkes story? Yeah. And even though that's still sitting on the shelf, it's pretty good. But I thought the turndown meant that was final. So I said, let's go again. And at that moment, I was looking for public domain material because I couldn't afford to pay. I was paying the screenwriter. So I couldn't afford to buy a story. So I was combing through various 19th century writers. And Conrad had this short story, which I learned later was a sketch for a much larger book about the Napoleonic era. And that's how The Duelist came about. I sent it to Jerry. Jerry said, I love it. And upshot was he actually wrote the scraps. It was necessary, I think, to establish Dubert as the hero of the picture to involve the audience with him intimately and to show him with a private life of any kind. In the early part of the story, he is simply soldier and duelist. In Conrad's version, he doesn't have a private life, particularly. So it sounds a bit ungallant, but Laura is produced to give him a private life. Once this is done, I wanted to use their relationship, which is a happy one, initially, to show how the pressure, the anxiety of the dueling takes Dubert over and makes it impossible for him to care for her, really much to notice her. This life-centered relationship is destroyed by the whole death-centered business of the dueling. What was your budget on this? All in $900,000. $900,000. Which even at the time was, listen, it's the first movie. We forget. You and I forget. Or maybe we don't, actually. We're grateful for any studio who says, okay, you got the money. So I was eternally grateful that they gave me $900,000 to make the movie. Well, it's definitely all up on the screen. I'm assuming in this scene here, this first sword fight, that beautiful structure in the bagger that's up on blocks almost, that's an existing structure you guys didn't build yet. There's nothing built in this film because I couldn't afford it. But in fact, this is interesting. This is the first day of principal photography. The guy he's fighting, I think, is Alec Guinness' son. Harvey said, I don't want buttons on these swords. You can see them. I said, okay. Pretty dangerous. And Harvey had only learned to handle a sword for the last two weeks. So the special effects guy came up with a great idea saying, I've got it. Two car aerials. So these are car aerials. Really? Yeah. What you forget is that when he lunges, they've already slightly bent the aerial. So he actually went, la, and nearly ran his opponent through. That's great. And Bill Hobbs was your fight arranger. Yeah, yeah. Did you use Bill Hobbs? I used Bill Hobbs on the Count of Monte Cristo. He's great. Well, you know, the great thing about the sword organizer, the arranger, it is kind of choreography, right? Yes. And what's great about Bill is he actually understands that it's part of the drama. Yes. Right? It's two characters in a dialogue scene with steel, right? Well, the thing people don't realize in a fight is the difficult thing is that you have to choreograph it so that the two actors know where the next move is coming from so they don't kill each other. But at the same time, you have to make it look like you don't know that next move is coming. Gentlemen, general foul. In this scene, you get your first taste of this beautiful interior lighting, which to me is just the hallmark of this picture. Because when I first saw this film, I was very young. I saw it in Austin, Texas. And I was so taken by just the beauty of these interiors, how you let the dark side just fall off more. And in most pictures I'd seen up to that point, they were all filled in. They just let it fall off and it was so beautifully natural. Well, Frank, Frank Tidy. Frank Tidy. Was that Frank or was that you? No, a bit of each. Frank and I had done probably at least of all the commercials I'd done, probably done at least 200 commercials together. So, you know, at that moment, we're virtually phoning it in. There was no concern about how much is in the shadow. And Frank knew this is what I liked. And I don't mind if windows blow out. I don't mind if it burns out. I don't mind sometimes if it goes totally dark. And Frank just knew really how far to go. But that was great. And that's the only time I ever did with Frank, actually. You did fight a duel this morning. Make dueling sound like a pastime in the Garden of Eden. Now, how did you come to select Caridin and Kytel for these two roles? In fact, I'd cast two guys. I'd cast Oliver Reed and I'd cast Michael York, both great swordsmen. At that particular moment, I wanted the money. And the studio said, we don't want to go down that route. If you want the money, they gave me a list of four guys. And the two of the guys on the list made sense was Kytel and Caridin. So I went after these two. I flew to Hollywood under my steam. Came here for two weeks. I was here two and a half months after going to buy clothes. Because the opening shot with Kytel says, you got to be out of your mind. How do you expect me to play Hazard? Two and a half months of persuasion. I used to see him four times a week. Eventually, I got at him by talking about food, France, and cigars. He'd never been there. And that's what swung him. I think that finally did the trick. Well, it's great. I mean, his personality, he's such an intense guy. He's so perfect for this role. Yeah, Keith eases into this in an easier fashion. And I think Keith had also done a little bit of theater. I had lunch with him once, and I actually asked him about how he came to this. And he said, you convince him that the food would be fabulous, and it'd be like a big vacation. That was finally the deal. Hold him, Gabriel. Are you holding on to the table? No. Richard, is he on the table? Got you. Got you. You see, I couldn't afford to go outside this tent, because all I've got is what you see in the background. So I did it inside the tent. That's all the extras you had. That's it. But that's what's so great. I mean, when you do it well like this, I mean, you create the illusion that there's so much more outside the frame when you've got everything you've got right there. And you could have started saying outside, I've got to see the camp. I've got to see the people. I've got to see the kitchens. Then I come inside, and you know what? All that would end up in the editing. It's finally knowing what that is, isn't it? It is. In a picture that I think is just full of stunning, ravishing images, I think this shot is probably my favorite. This is just magnificent. What time of day was this done? You're losing the light here around 4 o'clock, so this is about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I've got to do the master. What happened here on the first take, Harvey couldn't control the horse galloped straight through the shot, and leapt from the horse cursing and swearing and shouting at everybody in general. And meanwhile, the light was dropping, and I had to get him out again. So this was successful. That's why we stopped him short, so there's somebody there catching the horse, because Harvey couldn't stop. Right behind the camera? And then I thought it was so beautiful, I thought, why not let this play? So the fact that I was losing the light dictated how I'd handle the whole scene, which is really this keyed in to the idea, why don't I use the idea of paintings as chapters? Is there a grad in the top of this? Yeah, oh yeah, there's gradding. No silks, though. I used Tiffin filters, which are very little diffusion. They just do something to the black. Then I noticed that throughout a lot of the picture, you've got grads in the top of it, and again, it helps to just really create this atmosphere, this wonderful coldness to the whole picture. But you know, winter months are beautiful. I'd wreckied when it was fully green, which was absolutely ravishing. And as I got there, because it took so long to get the money, all the leaves had gone. So I'd arrive in the kitchen and say, what happened? But I gradually realized it was an advantage because it was so beautiful. And because it was the opposite of what I'd wanted, which was lush beauty, it somehow makes it more austere, and therefore, I don't know, it just works better. When you did scenes like this, or what's your style really? Is it different than it was in as far as how you'd rehearse the actors? Did you come in and know where you wanted to put them before the scene, or did you let them rehearse and sort of place themselves and you sat back and figured out the coverage you wanted? No, I always know. I know, and I've been through every which way with them. And when I've sat there and said, well, let's walk through the scene, you know? But actually, I know exactly where I want them to be. And so gradually, I edged them into the position of where it needs to be, more or less. Now, Harvey, I think you were a little... Could you... I'm on a fairly long lens. Could you come a little closer to him? Follow him in a little closer. Where is it? There. Okay, okay, Keith, could you just hit the map, please? Okay, just boom, crunch. Okay, there's a general rush that won't be there yet, so there'll be a beat later, okay? Then they start coming in, then Harvey walks forward, I think. Now I'll just follow Harvey. And I think most actors are very happy about... Providing they feel confidence with you, there's no questions. It all just falls into place and it just starts to move. Right. And I think, again, it's all about making decisions, you know? It is. I mean, different directors have such different styles, because some directors like to just sit back and let the actors do what they want, and then they just put a camera up and record it. But visualists like you, you like to force the eye, which you have to do. You have to do. You just have to. Well, you do that as well. And finally, it's for them. It serves them and the story. Now, sometimes if I've ever had a hard push on that with somebody, which rarely happens, I've basically said, you know, this proscenium is all about you, and it's all about making you look appropriate and all good. So if we fiddle a bit, it's for a good purpose. And usually they relax. Hold it there. Good. Okay. And turn over. Running. Mark. Take one. You know, what I like about the script, always when I keep revisiting it, is the elegance of the choice of the writer that is very minimalistic, very specific, and always loaded with humor, if you're looking for it. So that's Jerry. And it's all there. It's all there on the page. I like to be very particular, and I think it helps. After all, the script is the first thing that happens in a movie. Someone has to sit down and produce what everybody else starts from. And I think I like for myself, and I think it's helpful for other people, to be very specific, to describe exactly what you yourself see. But it can't possibly be the director's duty to go and I can think of the third duel, the duel with sabers, which is fought in a partly lowered barn. I imagine that being fought under a stand of big elms with the rooks whirling and cackling in the trees. Well, that was okay. It was quite a nice thought. And the way Ridley did it was superb. And certainly, it's not his job to go and find a stand of elms to shoot under, because that happens to be what you've written. This exhaustion that these guys manifest in the scene, which makes it work so great, did they have to create that, or was that real? It was real, because I did one long take. I did two masters in a row, so they're absolutely buggered. And I turned around and said, right, quick, and keep going. And the key was to start in the middle of it, not start with the beginning. I decided that this is in progress, so in other words, you can already start with the blood and the sweat. I didn't push them. They decided and said, no, we're going to do it with the real blades, which, of course, are blunted. But that epee, or whatever it is, the point, you know, you can't use the button, because you can see it. And so, the point ground off would go through quite easily, and you wouldn't even know it happened. Literally, when you pulled it out, you'd probably then go, oh, it's like a razor blade cut. It hurts about five minutes later. And they're very dangerous pieces of steel. And the sabers were full-weight sabers, which, even with a blunted edge, you know, would still give you a nasty wound. But they went through the whole process of four sword jewels with them, because it does, really does, it affects your performance. As soon as you put a fiber blade on, as opposed to, you know, a two-second swing, but the fiber blade takes a quarter of a second, you know what I mean? And it affects the weight, the manner, everything. And the attitude. Had they rehearsed this fight? Yeah, they rehearsed this outside in the field somewhere. They had two weeks rehearsal on swords, which is pretty good considering what they did. I mean, Keith had handled sword before, and Harvey had never handled a sword in his life. So, Harvey did a really good job. Keith was, like, wary, because he said, Jesus Christ, tell them to keep to his marks, right? Harvey did strike me as a guy who was good at keeping to his marks. Screw the marks, win, right? We're coming up on maybe the most well-known fight in the film. Why don't we talk about that a bit? Yeah. Oh, the cavalry charge? Yeah. In that sequence, the charging each other through the force, I mean, the setting is so wonderful, and the mist and all. Was the mist there, or did you accentuate that? I was a smoke demon. Although, at that time in the morning, we got the wrong map, and of course, it was the crucial day, I've got to get out of there. And I ended up on the south bank of the doordown, and it was total blocked out white mist. It was beautiful. And I suddenly heard a car horn, and we started shouting at each other in the fog, saying, where are you? And he said, well, I can't tell where I am because I can't see. And so I lost about an hour that way before I realized the unit was on that side of the river, and I was on this side. So then I had to do a two-mile deviation to find them. And you still had to shoot the entire scene in that one day? Had to, yeah. In that sequence, when Carradine is sitting there before the charge, and you just do this wonderful push in on him in profile, and he's starting to shake, and you intercut very quickly with subsequent action. Was that a design on your part, or was that something you discovered in post? Editing. In editing? Because I cut it straight, and then looked at it and thought, I don't think it's enough, because it's critical that we believe that Carradine may believe he may die. And therefore, all I had was to have his light flashing before him. So we just tried the little inserts. And at the time, I had a bit of an argument with various people saying, but this is not really the style of the movie. It was suddenly disturbing the audience that moment away from what seems to be the style. I said, well, that's the whole point. So I decided that that's what I wanted, and I left it at that. I think it worked. Oh, it's fantastic. It just builds such tension from what would otherwise be a very static shot, as you said, where you're just pushing in on him as he begins to shake. And actually, the first experience was, I put it together. And of course, as an inexperienced filmmaker, I wanted everything in it. And it was far too long and drawn out. And that moment was pre-score. So we looked at it without any temp, which is, I think, always dangerous. Some editors say, no, no, you should look at it dry. I don't agree. I think you've got to look at it with whatever you need to make it work. Because otherwise, you can discard a lot of material, if you're looking at it dry, that you may have been able to use. And so I nibbled a bit. Actually, I was fairly courageous, nibbled a bit, didn't panic, said, let's get the music on. There's a couple of people saying, my God, my God, what are you going to do? It's so slow. And I said, get the music on. Icy calm. And we got a temp score, and it suddenly started to take on its own momentum. It's so easy to have an accident. We had an accident on the last day of shooting, didn't we? Yeah. What was that? Keith was thrown by his horse. We were doing some pickups on the cavalry job. And the horse just, for whatever reason, decided to throw him literally into a tree. So he ended up in the hospital on the last day, last day in France. And you suddenly realize how quick, boom, like that, end of movie, you know? And we'd gone through nine weeks with them, with blaze, whistling past each other like that, with hardly a bruise. And suddenly, on the last day, he's wiped out against the tree. Did you board this sequence out? Totally. Completely. Every shot, blow by blow. So you knew every piece that you needed? Yeah, because people say, well, it doesn't leave room for error. I said, on the contrary, it leaves me, it means I've thought it through, and it means I don't need anything. Right. But instead, do you leave room for other things to happen? I say, of course. But at least you've got a plan. We've got a plan. And usually, if we're well-designed, I don't really need anything fortuitous to happen. It happens magically when he's asking his lady to marry him, the two white horses behind are not behaving, one is trying to mount the other, and that was really good, so I just kept running. That's nice when that kind of thing happens. Speaking of that scene, when he's proposing to her and the two horses, and the horses start to act up, did that throw the actors? Did it change the dialogue at all? No. They stayed on board? She starts giggling. And that's not design, because he's meant to be proposing, so she's giggling. So that worked, because she thinks he's uncomfortable, but she's giggling, because she can see the horses got a giant erection. Sorry, but that's what it was. You can cut that out if you like. Before I forget, can you talk for a bit about Tom Rand and the costuming, and how you guys came together? Yeah. Tom had done a lot of commercials for me, so I knew him well, and so this was, Tom was a natural choice, and we pretty well made all the female costumes in the UK, and the normal costumes, but the great military costumes were made in Italy, at Parizzi. And what I learned at that time was a big lesson in filmmaking. I paid for the costumes. They owned them. I thought, wait a minute, that doesn't work, right? I was furious about that, because just the costumes for these two guys, at the time, cost me 19,000 pounds. And so I said, how is it, if I bought them, they own them? And they said, that's the deal. Were you guys slavishly authentic? Yes. It shows. I want to talk about the final duel, that wonderful setting, the final duel, that castle. Where was that? That was, again, in the outskirts of Sala, and I'd gone down a country road one day, because I thought it would be in a forest. And you know how you keep going down the road, and down the road, and the road doesn't end? And then the road ended, and right at the end of it was the ruin. So you had gone ahead of time, and seen how the light was hitting, and you knew when you wanted to set up for these? I used to go and sit there. I'd sit there, and just sit and watch. I figured the opportunity would occur between two and five, so I'd pace the ground, keep going round and round, and then say, okay, that there, that there, that there, and then I'd hit the storyboard, and I'd put a clock on it. So this sequence was boarded as well? Totally. Based on this location? Yeah. But I used to location hunt, manically, endlessly. Well, it pays off. I mean, to me, in a great film, great films, the place is another character. Yes, exactly. And it's certainly the case, I think, in this film, for sure. John Ford probably shot the desert better than anyone. Yeah. And then, at the end, after the final duel, when you get that great voiceover from Carradine, and then Keitel is left alone to digest it all, and that wonderful final image of the picture, where he's standing up on the bluff, looking out, and the sun is breaking through the clouds so magnificently. Tell us about that. Actually, I'd seen this image in all research material, in black and white, of Napoleon looking across France. He was standing on the top of a rise, and he was looking across a high rise. He was looking across hills and valleys and fields. And the image of Napoleon seemed to be perfectly appropriate for the Keitel character. And it was a bad day. It had been raining, and we'd had to organize the dolly on a push-up, about a 30-degree push-up, because I couldn't get up, and I wanted a track in, and I didn't want to build a flat platform, do a straight one. I couldn't get a crane up there. So, David Cadwallader, who's the grip, said, I can push it, because he's like that. So, he arranged the thing on a shallow grade. With a movie, all the dolly is heavy. They carry the dolly up the hill. They put it on there, and somebody on the top said, you know what? I think the sun's going to come out. So, I said, get Harvey, get Harvey. You know, stand him on the edge. And then, they discovered Harvey gets vertigo. So, Harvey said, I'm going to stand on the edge of this argument. I can see that the sun is going to happen. So, I said, I'll move him back three feet from the edge. So, we did, and Harvey's like, on the edge, because he's about 700 feet up. And we action, track up. And this is the great thing about operating as well, because you can adjust and move and adjust all the time, and whisper, crane up a little bit slower, faster, you know? You're in it. You're in the shot. And as I arrived, the sun came out. Just glimmered, and then went, and then glimmered again. And then it kept coming. I see it's going to keep coming. It was so great. I figured we have the shot. So, and you talk Harvey through it. Say, Harvey, I want to ask you to do something a second. Don't move. Just slowly turn to face east. He said, which way is east? I said, to your right, okay? So, he starts turning to his right. And as that, we then track back down. As we track back down, the sun comes out again, more, brighter. And so, there was the last shot. I want to talk about serendipity. Yeah. I mean, every picture is completely different. Sure. And somehow, some of them are just blessed, and they have a serendipity to it. And I would imagine this one certainly must have had it. Oh, this did. And the only, there was no shocks with the film, because by the time I'd finished the movie, we'd got this very nice thing of being the official British entry at Cannes. I got, the upshot was I got, I didn't get the Palme d'Or, I got the Grand Jury Prize, and Padre Padroni got the Palme d'Or. And I thought, oh, this is great. And I went to, we brought it to America. They released it, and they made seven prints. So, I ended up in one theater in LA, Fine Arts down here, which is actually a good little theater still. And Austin, Texas, I think which is where you saw it. New York, Chicago, seven theaters. And I never complained. I thought, oh, that's good. But the thing that it really did here, which was puzzling, because they both didn't understand how to sell it, but it opened the gate for me in a big way. It was a very influential film for me, because when I saw it, I was just starting to make little pictures. And I was so taken by it, because it was so unlike anything I'd ever seen before. And it's always stuck with me. I mean, it's just a beautiful piece of work. It's a little gem that I'd say probably 98% of the public doesn't even know exists, because they never had an opportunity to see it. Hopefully, they will now. Magnificent film.