How 'engineered' migrant invasions are being used to destabilise the West - Neil Oliver and Alex Krainer

Hello everyone. Thank you for joining me on GB News Originals. My guest today is Alex Krainer, who's a geopolitical analyst, commentator, with a particular background in matters financial. It's always good to catch up with you, Alex. How are you? I'm doing well, Neil. Always good to join you. And my warm greetings from Croatia to all the viewers and listeners. Just to jump straight in, how do you interpret what unfolded in the last few days, still unfolding, in Spain's North African territory of Ceuta? Obviously it made for very exciting and febrile footage of brown young men arriving from the sea into European territory. How did you read the way that was presented and what should we make of it? Well, I only know how it was presented in the social media, not the way it was presented in the mainstream media, because I haven't switched on my television probably in the last 15 years. But basically, you know, what we got is a good amount of context, although not full context, because the situation is fairly complicated. Are you planning a trip this year? Well, staying connected when traveling abroad is the one thing everyone worries about. That's where Saly comes in, the sponsor of this video. Saly is an app that gives you instant mobile data in 200 destinations without ridiculous roaming charges. There's no physical SIM cards, no airport queues and no dodgy vending machines. Here's how it works. Download the Saly app, pick your country, choose your data plan and install the eSIM once. Then when you land, it activates instantly. You're online straight away. Maps are working, Uber's booked and your photos are uploading. And the best part, you only install the eSIM once. On your next trip, just buy a new plan and switch it back on. Some have even found it's faster than hotel Wi-Fi. Plus, there's ad blocking, 24-7 support and a full refund if your phone isn't compatible. Before your next trip, download Saly using our link below. Use code NEWS for 15% off and get sorted before you travel. Go to saly.com forward slash news or scan the QR code now. And thank you to Saly for supporting the channel. Go to saly.com forward slash news or scan the QR code now. It almost begs the question, is it obvious by intent? Because on the mainstream media, to some extent, it was portrayed as something spontaneous. Something that was just, you know, this is just global warming, whatever, these things will happen. And almost everyone that I was aware of watching it, as you see on social media, immediately read it differently. And Israel was so quick to come out and say that it was now delighted by a strong new relationship with Morocco. And in the meantime, it forced Algeria, which is in a different relationship to Israel, into a different position. Obviously, Spain has been publicly less than cooperative with Israel's activities in the Middle East. You know, anyone watching it, is it just, when you say weapon of war, are we just into naked threat territory, velvet glove off, steel fist visible? It does appear that way, because this is a little bit too obvious, a little bit too in your face. But, you know, when I mentioned the weapon of war, I didn't, you know, I'm not making up my own terms. There was a document, a paper published, and I forget by whom now, whether it was Harvard University or some United Nations institution. But they published a paper, I think it was 2008 or 2009. And the title was Engineered Mass Migrations as a Weapon of War. And the question was whether engineered mass migrations can be used as a weapon of war during wartime as well as during peacetime. And then the authors reached the conclusion that, oh, yes, they can be, and they didn't go as far as saying that they should be. But, you know, obviously, this is not a random thing. And this is something that has been prepared. It's interesting to watch how reflexively the same people who publicly respond in outrage at the movement of, you know, another pocket of brown people into a European enclave, are the same people who cheerlead the war in Iran and cheerlead the destruction of the other parts of the world from which inevitably displaced people will move. You know, clearly what happened in Ceuta, the 50,000, I've seen various figures between 50 and 100,000 people suddenly appearing out of the backs of trucks and out of the sea and all of the rest of it. But it says nothing compared to the number of people, brown people, that would be dislocated and on the move out of those territories which are being systematically destroyed in the Middle East. But I do, I think, being optimistic, I think increasingly people see it. You know, they see on the one hand that uncomfortable numbers of new people turn up and have the impact that that inevitably has. But they also see it alongside, but wait a minute, what is happening to the other parts of the world when so many of these people come? They basically destroy the societies in many of these countries. But I think it's, you know, the culprits that we should look at are usually Western NGOs, Western non-government organizations. Because whether we're talking about a guided society like Afghanistan or Iraq or Sudan, Somalia and so forth, or relatively intact societies like Morocco, you always have a network of non-government organizations that are funded by Western institutions. You almost always have ostensibly private entities like charitable organizations, you know. And what they'll do is they'll cultivate this so-called civil society. They'll organize people. And at a given point in time, they will mobilize them either after some catalyzing event like we had, you know, in Ukraine in late October or November of 2013. There were these tense negotiations between Ukraine and the EU over Ukrainian accession agreement with the EU, which was, you know, most people don't really know this because it was lost over, but it was basically a surrender of Ukrainian nation to become basically a colony of the European Union, a colony of the EU. Under the accession agreement, Ukraine was meant to basically copy-paste into their own legal code about 1,000 pages of EU commission directives. Not only that, they would oblige themselves, they would commit to implementing every EU directive from then on forward without having any say in how the directive is formulated. They would effectively become a colony of the EU. So that was October or November 2013. Then President Yanukovych, duly elected, was having second thoughts. He thought we needed to negotiate this, and then it turned out that the accession to the EU would cost Ukraine some $160 billion, which they were absolutely unable to afford. So they thought, yeah, we definitely want to join the EU, but we need to renegotiate this because we need to figure out how this is going to be funded. Anyhow, they brought him to the point where it was his time to just sign the agreement. He said, no, as it is, we cannot sign this agreement. And then that day, this NGO network, which consisted of literally hundreds of non-government organizations in Ukraine that were funded by American and British organizations and institutions, launched into these demonstrations that became the Euromaidan revolution, and which ultimately climaxed in February 22, 2014, coup, overthrow of Yanukovych, and installation of the new government. Here in Morocco, obviously this wasn't spontaneous because grown-up men usually have a life. They're expected to turn up somewhere. Maybe they have wives, girlfriends, children, jobs, parents. You don't just on the same day, tens of thousands of military-aged men decide, hey, let's bust into Spanish territory today just for the kicks. Because on that day, you decided not to do your usual stuff, which might have been just like getting together with your buddies for a shisha and a coffee or a tea and shoot the ----. Am I allowed to say that? Or go fishing or fix your roof or car or something. No. That day, they all had on their to-do list, randomly, spontaneously, let's bust into the Spanish territory. Of course that doesn't happen. Are you planning a trip this year? Well, staying connected when traveling abroad is the one thing everyone worries about. And that's where Saili comes in, the sponsor of this video. Saili is an app that gives you instant mobile data in 200 destinations without ridiculous roaming charges. There's no physical SIM cards, no airport queues, and no dodgy vending machines. Here's how it works. 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You know, Neil, this is incredibly nefarious because from what we could see in the footage they went there with nothing. They didn't bring any luggage, food, water, who knows, probably minimal amounts of money. And now they're basically outside of their country, outside of their support network, their communities, and with no food to eat, no water to drink, no money to spend. So obviously, out of existential necessity, they're going to turn on the local community, give me food, give me water, give me a place to sleep. And that's going to cause obviously a conflict that's not going to go away until these people either continue on to mainland Spain or force their return to Morocco. As you say, a continually developing story. To move to the other side of that seesaw of people being disrupted and the consequences thereof, obviously US President Donald J. Trump has announced on Truth Social that the great and finally devastating attack on Iran that he had cancelled or postponed because a deal is imminent, yet another deal. Some of it just becomes rhetorical really, but is Donald Trump just floundering in a situation that is outwith the control even of the people pulling his strings? Is he just bobbing about like a cork in the end of a fishing line in a puddle? Yes, Neil, that's exactly what I put in my market report this morning. I used the word flailing. I was going to use floundering and then I changed my mind. But the same thing, it seems that his administration is now flailing or floundering with no clear objective, with no strategy and no discernible exit point. They are caught in a trap of their own making and so Trump is now basically performing this Kabuki theatre to at least try to keep the secondary effect of his war under control, which is the reaction of the markets. Because the US economy is at risk of oil prices exploding because we are still amidst the worst market disruption in the history of oil markets, which only got a lot worse about 10 days ago when Ansar Allah joined and shut off straight and foremost for Saudi oil exports. And so potentially that removes up to 30% of global crude oil supplies from the market. The Suez Canal still remains open as a viable venue, but you cannot make ultra large, super large crude carriers or ultra large crude carriers will not pass through the Suez Canal. You have tankers called the Suez Max, which are up to I think about 150,000 metric tons of crude oil. So it's okay, you can export oil that way, but it's like a really constrained bottleneck. So without any question, the market is under a very, very severe disruption. Still, the United States doesn't control either one of the two choke points, Bab el-Mandeb or Strait of Hormuz. It's very obvious that they cannot resolve this problem militarily. So what Trump does is he raises the tensions. And then he goes and says, okay, the Iranians are begging us for a deal. They're begging us for a deal. So now just on Saturday, he said, the week ended on Friday with an anticipation of the largely escalated bombardment of Iran, not only by the United States, but also Israel was going to join. And they were going to be hitting Iran's civilian and energy infrastructure, for which the Iranians said, look, we already have the region's energy infrastructure mapped out. And all of that's going to get hit. And this is going to be a massive disruption. And it's going to be spanning a long period of time before it will be normalized again. And so, you know, according to Trump and his administration, he pulled back because allegedly Mohammed bin Salman from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia called him and asked him to stand down, and then also said that the other countries of the GCC, the Gulf Cooperation Council, and the Iranians have the outlines of a new deal and that this is going to be announced imminently and so forth. So obviously, you know, this morning at nine o'clock, the price of crude oil opens almost 9% below Friday's close, which is, again, you know, the Kabuki theater worked. The markets are pretending or really are buying this practically every week, the same game being played, even though the Iranians just came out and they said, like, no, there is no discussions at all. We are not in any kind of negotiations. And Trump made it explicit in his statement on Saturday that the deal that was being discussed would have the Hormuz Strait open immediately, totally, and completely. Those three words he used in his truth social post. None of that is true. But for some reason, the markets are pretending like it is. And it's part rhetoric and it's part manipulation. But this is now one of the central obsessions of the Trump administration rather than dealing with the with the core problem. You know, the core problem they cannot fix, extend and pretend. And meanwhile, they're using narrative devices and manipulation to keep the secondary effects under control. But just to wrap up, you know, every empire in the history of humanity has tried to bend the laws of economics to their will. And every single one of them have failed. And I think that maybe Trump people think they're particularly clever. Maybe they're feeling smug that they have been able to get away with this so far. But I think that eventually, in the fullness of time, it's going to fail. And we're going to find ourselves with crude oil at 150 or 200 or 300 dollars a barrel. British Ministry of Defense in 2012 was predicting 500 dollars a barrel, anticipating some of these exact same disruptions that we are experiencing today. So who knows what's going to happen? But the track we're on is unsustainable and something's going to break and it's going to break really badly. You know, I've heard I've heard it may even have been yourself, but I've heard suggestions that some of this incomprehensibility may be the consequence of AI generating and then feeding off of itself when it comes to reporting what's actually happening with the availability of oil. And then AI media is working from the false stories that are coming out from the, you know, a kind of a positive feedback loop, which is a consequence of AI doing what AI does, which is listen to itself. And I've also, I've definitely heard you talking about the fact that even were crude to go to 500 dollars a barrel, if it's available at a price, people will pay it. But the problem really kicks in when there is no oil at any price. And that obviously with what's happening to Europe because of this, the Strait of Hormuz, what's happening with the Houthis in the Red Sea, you know, what's happening with whoever it is that's proposing to attack even Russian ships taking oil to India. And, you know, Europe seems to be being effectively throttled when it comes to access to oil and or energy, presumably in amongst all, some people are profiting from the insider dealing that goes alongside knowing what is about to be announced and then what doesn't happen, and so on and so on. But when you mentioned, obviously, Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia getting involved, it certainly feels existentially that the Gulf states see the writing on the wall. That, you know, the lovely life of Dubai, let's say, that mirage, that desert mirage looks as though it's never going to be believable again. And you can tell that because even MBS has had to step in and possibly imperil his own position, if not his existence, you know, by standing up in the face of this. Yeah, exactly, Neil. I think that when you think through what ostensibly, allegedly just happened this Saturday, you know, namely Trump getting a call from MBS and MBS asking him to not proceed with the attacks because, you know, it's putting the Gulf kingdoms in peril. What that actually signals is that United States allies no longer believe that the United States has control of the situation, or that it can impose its solution militarily. And that's game over, you know, that's something that normally you shouldn't have let out. Because the very premise of the narrative is that it took MBS to change Trump's mind, as though the Trump administration was going to launch a major military operation without having thought through the consequences. So MBS had to alert him to, hey, you know, this could go really badly. How about not doing it? And then Trump said, like, yeah, I guess you have a point, maybe we're not going to do this. So the whole thing is just profoundly stupid. And I think that it only stands the most glossing, most superficial processing before you start thinking, wait a minute, this just doesn't look good from any angle at all. It's just awful. Means you've effectively lost your allies in the region. Because now they're telling you what you should do and what you shouldn't do. They themselves, who have spent hundreds of billions of dollars in protection racket from you, no longer believe in your military power. And they've seen the writing of the law. And then they know that Iran can crush them whenever they choose to do so. So that leaves you one choice to basically turn coats, right? And make nice with Iran, and with China and with Russia, and to start trading your exports in Chinese yuan and shift away from the US dominated unipolar global order. Now, I'll address the question of AI that you posed. And I've heard this before, but I don't really think that AI would play the decisive role here. I'm sure that among algorithmic traders out there, there are people who have AI combing the internet to try to gauge the mood of the markets. And if the mood is bearish, then they go short. If the mood is bullish, they go long. But you know, markets will consist of all manner of participants. Some of them will be very long term players, they're going to be industry hedgers, there's going to be day traders and everything and anything in between. I think it's more like some very powerful entities, most probably in coordination with the US government with the American Treasury Department, are manipulating the market by brute force. So they will produce the narrative. And then they will reconfirm the narrative by suddenly dumping colossal size shorts, short positions. They'll go selling short the market to force the price down. And you know, like, if you observe the markets, it's quite obvious that this is happening. We don't know who's doing it. But pretty much everybody and their mother suspects that it's the US Treasury Department. That's, you know, they're not trading, but the entities that they work with, are doing it. In the end, you know, Neil, this is, this can only go on until it can't. And ultimately, the reality on the ground will determine the course of events. And so you can maybe present an alternative reality. And there's going to be people who are going to be eager to be fooled every single time. But in the end, you know, no empire in history has been able to do this successful, you know, Diocletian famously had a whole list of market items, for which he tried to manipulate prices, but basically setting the maximum price at which pretty much everything in the markets was allowed to be sold. And the merchants who violated these edicts were put to death, and 1000s of merchants were actually put to death. It didn't matter in the end, the markets did what they did, the laws of economics prevailed. And inflation in the Roman Empire exploded, and it took the empire down with it. If you if you distort the price in the markets, and you push it below where it would naturally want to go, the market will signal the imbalance through shortages. And so maybe you'll see in your in your newsfeed that the price of oil is $80 a barrel, except you're not going to be able to buy it at that price anywhere. People will have it made before you Hey, you know, I got some but it's going to cost you $120 a barrel. And these shortages are becoming a reality. And I'll tell you my personal experience. Because when I came to Croatia one week ago, normally what I do is I, I get here, I drive straight home, I park my car, and that's that. This time, I thought, I don't know what's going to happen over the coming days. I'll just go to the gas station, just in case, I'm going to fill up my car to make sure that I have a tank full of diesel, if push comes to shove. And for the first time ever, the gas pump where I normally go had no fuel to sell. There was no fuel. And you know, I'm talking the first time since the 1970s, right? When people see this, the first time, their immediate impulse is to go to the next pump into the next one into the next one. As to you, so you start an avalanche, avalanche of panic buying. And you know, like that's the inflection point that the spark that can give rise to hyperinflation to or at least the progression towards hyperinflation. And suddenly, people start feeling very insecure. And then as soon as something comes on the market, they go and buy it quickly. And so this is what's going on. And I don't think that Trump can overturn it with these clever narrative tricks and manipulations in the in the futures market. It's quite something. After all the years of watching and listening to an official narrative about America, and the Middle East, and especially Iran, that you talked about protection, racketeering for the kingdoms out there that thought they depended upon American military might for their existence. And yet to look at what's happened, where America has gone after Iran, finally, and has proven from day one to be incapable of achieving its end. And you watch how Iran has been able to use the straight of her moves. And also the way it's been able to absorb whatever's been done to it and the damage that it's been able to inflict and respond. It's amazing to look on and contemplate the possibility that what hasn't happened in the Middle East up until now has not been because of the American presence there, but because of the restraint of a presence like Iran, what they were actually capable of and didn't do. And they weren't stopped from doing it. But once America pressed the button on them, and they had no option but to come forward and do some of the things that they're capable of doing, it completely changes your perspective. The continued existence, the perpetuation of certain places in the Middle East hasn't been because America was there. It's been because a real country, an ancient country like Iran, actually didn't do what it could have done. Yes, I agree, Neil. It changes everyone's perspective very radically. Everything that happened since Trump attacked Iran in February was very much predictable. And it was predicted in many policy papers, strategy documents. Trump knew or should have known that everything that he's experiencing now was predicted by intelligence analysts, by military strategists, and so forth. The reason why he launched this attack is really truly a mystery to me, because I was among those people who maybe as little as a few days or a week before the attack was actually launched, I was convinced that he wouldn't, because I read many of those policy papers, I read many of those analyses, and I thought, this would be so stratospherically dumb to do this. I refuse to believe that anybody could be that dumb, particularly somebody who managed to get elected to US presidency three times, and all of his advisors in general, Pentagon brass and all these people. It just looked so unbelievably stupid that I thought, of course, they're not going to do this. But I was wrong, they did do it. And we'll recall that we learned from General Wesley Clark that Iran was on the list of seven countries to take over in five years, since the year 2001. And that means that it was due for a regime change within 2006. But nobody dared to make this move, because they knew that the consequences could be terrible. How was Trump talked into this is just simply unbelievable. They're saying that it's all the Israeli angle that the Israelis talked to him, that Benjamin Netanyahu sold him the bill of goods and talked him into it. And maybe that is true. I don't know exactly. But something to do with Benjamin Netanyahu and Kushner and Chabad movement, obviously, had some kind of an influence on Trump. But the most amazing thing about the whole affair is, first, the idea that a shitty little criminal genocidal state, halfway around the world from the United States, has the ability to manipulate the world's preeminent superpower to its own detriment. That in itself is simply amazing. And it requires an explanation. And the explanations that we have conventionally are, I don't think they watch because people will say like, Oh, yeah, you know, it's because the Jews have a lot of money. And you know, like all these Zionist Jewish donors, they, you know, they have disproportionate influence in the United States and so forth, because they have a lot of money. I don't think that works. Because you could also say, well, the Chinese have a lot of money as well. And the Russians have a lot of money, and the Arabs have a lot of money. They couldn't dream about pushing the United States into a war against its own interest into its own detriment. It's something else. And this is where I, you know, like, I thought there must be a higher level conspiracy in play. And anyhow, it's a it's a mysterious thing. I think that historians will be extremely busy with this for probably years and decades to come. With with all of that, which is, you know, in, you know, in so in so many ways, you know, involves ideologies, and it involves, you know, philosophies. But, you know, for me, everything tragically comes back to money. All the time, it just comes back to money. Now, you and I have chewed the fat over and we've both talked to other people as well about the seeming inevitability of global financial crash, the end of fiat, whatever, you know, the train hits the buffers, finally, and forever. And, you know, the, the predictions of that, of that end, where they never seem to, they never seem to come to pass. But are we must become, you know, must the train finally hit the buffers or not? Yes, they must and they will. Neil, I, I'm convinced that this is a mathematical inevitability. It just simply can't be avoided. But, you know, this time, it's not going to come in the in the form of the 1929 crash, or in the nine in the form of the 2008 financial crisis. Because since those days, the the the banking oligarchy has consolidated their control over the over the money machine. And so if you'll remember, in 2008, Hank Paulson had to go to US Congress, and literally beg on his knees for a 700 billion bailout to be granted to the to the banking system. Of course, the bailout ended ended up being much, much larger, on the order of, I think, close to $30 trillion. And it went on just to the US banks, but to the whole to the whole franchise, including European banks and Japanese banks, and so forth. But what they have done since is they have changed the system in a in a few stages, first with the Dodd-Frank bill, but then particularly after the with the immediate aftermath of the lockdowns with the 2020 pandemic. And now they own, they have full control of the monetary system, meaning they no longer have to go to Congress, or to legislature in any country to obtain a bailout. They can just print up whatever quantity of money that they need, and they are doing it. And so what we're going to get instead of a an economic crash in the depression, we're going to get a hyperinflationary depression, because they are already Bank of Japan, Bank of England, Federal Reserve Bank, and Central European Central Bank, they're all now in unison flooding the system with liquidity, because they have to plug up the hole. You see, by losing control of the Middle East, they're losing a lot of the cash flows that were coming from the Middle East to the Western money center banks. So, and these cash flows were repaying the loans that were extended for massive investments in that region. And so all of those are now bad debts, meaning, you know, they're not being serviced. And so this is creating, our banking systems are already very highly leveraged. And that means that maybe they have like 20 times as much exposure to the economy as they have loss absorbing equity, which means that a 5% shrinkage in those cash flows can completely destroy those banks. They will not allow their institutions to go under. So they will keep printing money in whatever volume is necessary to keep them alive. But what that means is that they are robbing the whole rest of the society by diluting our purchasing power. You know, whatever you and I are making, whatever we have in savings, whatever our families have in their pension funds and so on, this is getting diluted progressively, until at some point is going to be all worth zero. And so the collapse is going to come not as a deflationary depression, but as a hyperinflationary stagflation, let's put it that way. So the whole world becomes the Weimar Republic. Exactly. It's like the Weimar Republic, or in a way, the collapse of the Soviet Union, where also, you know, the communist authorities, they thought they could manipulate markets, that they could keep the prices in check, and so forth. And then finally, when it was no longer tenable, and they had to liberalize the price regime, which was, I think, at the beginning of February of 1992, from one day to the next, they had 500% inflation. And then within that year, inflation went up to something like 3000% per annum. So I think that this is the risk of what we are facing going forward. And I think that the more they attempt to manipulate market prices today, the more it renders the reckoning explosive and more difficult to control when the moment finally comes, but it's coming, it's inevitable. I suppose that analogy of my train on the track, it sounds like the train will keep going until it's, you know, approaching light speed. And the problem for everyone on board will be that we swept off of the train, while the train continues to hurtle forward to its inevitable event horizon. Yes. Yes. I also like the metaphor of a plane falling out of the sky, you know, because maybe you lost control of the aircraft, maybe it's falling to the ground. But everybody's fine, because it's not the fall that kills you, it's the moment when you come to a sudden stop. And so, you know, I think that we were already in the falling phase, we're already in the phase where the authorities have lost control of the aircraft. How, you know, what the moment when when it all comes to a complete stop is when it's going to happen. I don't know, I grew up in this system, you know, I grew up in this in the communist system. And the inflationary pressures started to started to accelerate in, let's call it mid to late 1970s. I remember as a little child, going to the store and, you know, things I was buying, the world kept getting more and more expensive. But it was at first it was a little bit, you know, like maybe 5% more expensive, 10% more expensive. I had to get extra change to be able to buy a pastry. But then by mid 1980s, the inflation rates went insane. And by the late 1980s, we had hyperinflation. So they kept printing new monetary units with more zeros at the end. So that's, that's basically the syndrome of the crisis that we're going to experience. But you know, the time between the mid 1970s until late 1980s, that was, that was a long interval. So it's very difficult to predict when things really get go go off the rail and how it's gonna, how it's gonna affect us all. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's terrifying stuff that you talk about. But I knew that going in. And you get the questions I was going to ask and you what to expect. No, but, you know, I let me put it this way. Inflationary unraveling is better than financial collapse. Because in a financial collapse, you might lose your job and your income from one day to the next. Banks might fail. Shops might shut down. Goods might disappear from the market almost in an instant. And, you know, nobody has the 1930s depression in their living memory. But, you know, more than 10 million people, my understanding is that more than 10 million people in the United States died of starvation. And that's at the time when you still have many diversified family farms in the United States. Today, we have food deserts everywhere. You know, people are not going to be able to survive on mountains of soybeans and corn. So, an inflationary unraveling is better because it's, it's, it's gradual. Economy still turns, goods and services are still being produced. They're going to keep getting more expensive. But, you know, it gives everybody time to adjust. And I think that what may be the most important adjustment is to start creating and using gray and black markets. And the system that we're in, which is now disintegrating, it has to disintegrate because it's unsustainable. It's toxic. It's pathogenic to ourselves, but also to the outside world. You know, places like Palestine, Africa, but basically everywhere where Western powers went and colonized. And so, its collapse in the long term is great news. And we will adjust to it. And I think that life will be much, much better on the other side of that collapse. Alex Cranor, that's a good note to end on. I'm going to leave that there. Thank you so much. It's always a treat to talk to you. Thanks, Alex. Thank you, Neil. Great to speak. Great to catch up. And until the next time.