Spine Surgeon Drowns for 30 Minutes —Comes Back With a List

That day you're kayaking in a river in South America and everything just changes. So tell us about that day and the accident, what unfolded. So my husband and I went to South America and we spent a week kayaking. And kayaking might be something that many of the viewers think is crazy to begin with. This is whitewater kayaking, not sea kayaking. But it's something that my husband and I had done at that point for, I don't know, 15 years at least, a long time. And it's something that was a shared passion. And we went to South America with friends of ours who routinely run trips there. They're professionals. Had a wonderful day or a wonderful week of kayaking. And on what was going to be our last day of kayaking anyway, my husband actually didn't go on the river with us because he woke up with this terrible back pain. And it's not something he'd ever had before. But we were going on a section of river well known for its drops, its waterfalls. We're in Canada, it's not like Niagara Falls. But drops of 15 to 20 feet, which are exhilarating and challenging, but well within our skill set. But it was a river that was very inaccessible. So he chose to drop us off at the beginning. He was going to go off and find a lovely place to read or something. And then he would pick us up at the bottom. And I felt great. I was excited. It was a beautiful day and we started down the river. And I will say it was interesting because at the time I didn't really think about premonitions and that sort of thing. But I didn't feel quite right. I did feel like something was happening. And I don't know that I would even describe it as a premonition, like something terrible is going to happen. But a premonition that something was about to happen, neither good nor bad. But like most things, I ignored that and thought, okay, that's just something weird. And we came to the first more significant drop and we had planned to go through this sort of smaller part of it or a smaller chute. But another client had blocked the entrance to that. And this was not a river with eddies or slow areas where you could sort of pull out and regroup. So my only option was to go over the main part of the waterfall, which I did. And in looking at the bottom, I knew that it was not going to turn out well. But I sort of assumed that I'd be flipped upside down and not be able to right myself and push myself out of the boat and kind of get tumbled around a little bit. Yeah. Which is part of kayaking. I wasn't really looking forward to it, but it was like, okay, that's what I'm prepared for. But instead, the most wonderful adventure of my life began. And I rocketed down, hit the bottom. My boat was pinned or stuck under eight to 10 feet of water. And I'm a spine surgeon. I don't panic. I wasn't really even afraid. I just set about trying to free me or free the boat. But the weight of the water and the force of the current was such that I was absolutely plastered to the front deck of the boat. I couldn't move my arm even an inch. And I'm a pragmatist. I'm a very concrete thinking, rational person. And I thought about my situation. And I knew that I was not close to the shore. No one was going to come and rescue me. And I know this sounds like I just sort of gave in. And people always say, oh, you just gave in or felt a piece come over you. And it wasn't like that. I knew that I had a choice. And even though it seems hard to believe, because I knew I was going to die. There was no way out. But I made a very active choice to say, OK, God, your will be done. And I know that it sounds like that was just a choice because there were no other choices. But it actually wasn't. I had the choice to turn toward God or turn away. And I knew that was a choice. And the moment I chose to say, yes, Lord, your will be done, regardless of what that means, I was overcome with this very physical sensation of being held and comforted and reassured that everything was fine. My husband's fine. My kids are fine. And now that I have a grandson, it's that same feeling. It's like you hold the little baby and you pour everything you are into that every little ounce of love you have. And I was that baby. And it was the most incredible experience I could ever begin. Actually, I couldn't even imagine. Far beyond imagination. And that was really one of the first really wonderful parts of this experience, because I knew that I had no business being held by Jesus. I was a nobody, basically, but I was an everybody. And I knew that Jesus would be there holding any single person on this whole planet who said yes, who accepted that. It was awesome. And as you're being held, you have a very distinct feeling that this is Jesus holding me? Yes. And so many people have said, well, you just thought it would be or wanted it to be. And that is far from the truth. I'm the last person I would have expected to have Jesus holding me. I was a good person. Trust me. I certainly bought into the idea of being a good person, an honest, moral, ethical person. But that's about as far as it went in terms of any expectation of being met by Jesus. At that point in my life, I had not even personally known anyone who died. I had patients. So I had exposure to death in the medical realm. But I had never had a reason to think about death, what my own expectations might be, what my hopes would be. That is just not what I would have imagined. I just, nope. So you're feeling this supernatural peace. You're feeling held by Jesus. You're not feeling pain, but you know that you're at death's door. Something's happening. And 32% of people who have had near-death experiences talk about having a life review. Did you have anything like that? I did. And again, it was nothing I personally could have ever imagined. If I had been asked about a life review, I am pretty sure I would have come up with the Hollywood version. You know, your life flashes before your eyes, and there are some things you look at and you go, yeah, I did that pretty well. And of course, there'd be other things that, you know, you think, okay, I could have done that a little better. And I'm sure I would have assumed that there would be a sense of judgment. That, you know, you live a good life, and you get the golden ticket, and you go to heaven. You don't live a good life, and you face this judgment, and that's the end of it. And my life review was like none of that. In my life review, I learned about love. There was no sense of judgment. It was a matter of, yes, seeing events of my life, but not all of them. Seeing the most wounding, painful, miserable events of my life. Times when I was personally very wounded, or when I wounded other people, or when people I loved were wounded. And in re-experiencing each of these events, I experienced them with an absolute and complete understanding of the me that was in that situation, and everything about my life, my entire backstory, everything that brought me to that moment, as well as understanding the backstories of the other people involved. And what I discovered was that with that type of understanding, all the destructive emotions, the destructive emotions for myself of guilt or shame or bitterness or anger with regard to other people, all of those emotions, all of those feelings that get in our way and block feeling love, just disappeared. It's not even as though I had to forgive myself. It's not as though I had to forgive other people. There was nothing to forgive because I understood what brought us to that moment. And all I felt was some version of love. I felt empathy. I felt compassion. I felt an overwhelming sense of oneness. And that was true for everyone involved, but it was also true for me. I, you, I mean, everyone who's watching this, we are completely known. And through that, we are completely loved. God doesn't harbor anger and bitterness and all of those things, because where God's love is present, there's no room for that. It's like, you know, the classic example of lighting a candle in a room. Darkness doesn't exist. It can't exist. You know, when we talk about darkness, we can't measure darkness. Darkness is the absence of light and hatred. All of those destructive emotions is nothing more than the absence of God's love. And that's what I experienced in my life review. And that's what I learned. That alone is overwhelming. My experience could have stopped right then and there, and that would have been plenty. Yeah, it is plenty. Because as you think about the brokenness of humanity, whether it's something we've done or something somebody's done to us, but then the love of God covering it and bringing compassion and grace, and that's how you're seeing your life, it makes me think deeply about how we live today. That if we're living with God's love in us, and we're allowing it to infiltrate ourselves, but everything else around us, we don't sit in those heavy, destructive emotions that bring brokenness. I absolutely agree. Because part of brokenness is that internal feeling of guilt or shame or all of those things, because we don't accept forgiveness. And again, I don't even talk about that word forgiveness, because this goes far beyond that. It's really that difficulty we have of accepting ourselves and accepting that we have a backstory. Everyone has a backstory. We don't know what it is. We don't know our own story, but we have a story. And if we could understand it and know it, we would have the same compassion for ourselves that God has for us and that we know. I mean, we all have that experience of misjudging a situation or a person. And when we find out the real story, we go, oh, of course. You know, that is a lot. And as you said a few moments ago, you said, well, if the story ended right there, that would be a lot. But it didn't. No, it didn't. So your journey continued. Tell us what happened next. Oh, gosh. Well, I'm going to compress this pretty significantly. But basically, you know, my body came out of my boat. And as that happened, my spirit came out of my body. And I rose up and out of the river and I was greeted by these, I don't know what, people, beings, spirits, whatever name you want to put on them. You know, that's part of the problem, right? Because language is very difficult, but language is what we have. And every person you talk to, every person you talk to during your week on near-death experiences will tell you the same thing, which is there are no words. There's no description. How do you describe an existence where time doesn't exist? Dimension is different. There aren't the words. Our words are based on our three-dimensional chronological world. And so once we put a word on something that doesn't really describe it, it then sort of solidifies it. So if I want to call them people, you're going to go, oh, okay, they're people. They look just like us or beings. And that kind of sounds a little woo-woo and, you know, spirit. I don't know. There's no good word. But anyway, I was so joyfully greeted and welcomed. And I had this overwhelming sense of being home, of being home. It's like, ah, I'm home. And I fully recognize not everyone has a beautiful home, but everyone, I think, can imagine that home where you are completely valued, loved, known, accepted. And that was home. It was awesome. And then they took me down this pathway that was so beautiful. And I personally, again, you're going to talk to a number of people who have had near-death experiences, and we are going to describe our experiences differently. But I, as one person, have heard thousands of these stories now. And almost everyone talks about beauty, talks about love, number one, beauty, number two. But the details are a little bit different, right? Just like we look at a piece of art, and I might think it's terrible, and you might think it's beautiful. And we look at something else, and it's the reverse. Beauty is different. What speaks beauty to me, to my soul, is color. You know, I'm wearing a bright color. I like color. And what speaks beauty to me is color and flowers and the aromas of flowers. And that is what I experienced. It was beauty beyond anything I could ever begin to describe. And we walked down this pathway toward this, I don't know, this great dome structure stuff. It always sounds so corny to me when I describe it like that, but I don't know how to describe it. And we were there for what seemed like many hours. And while I was there, I could still look back at the river and see them pull my body to the shore and start CPR. And I will say that's sort of when I thought, oh, okay, I really am dead. That's surprising. But I was at this threshold for what felt like many hours. And while I was there, I sort of had this complete understanding of the interconnectedness of all of us and how it all matters. I mean, everything we do matters. Everything we say matters. How we love other people, it all matters. And I had this understanding of how it all works, how there really could be a God. And this is something that was tough for me always, which is how can a God actually know each one of us completely, love each one of us as though we're the only ones and have a plan for each one of us that's one of hope. There are billions of us on the planet, right? I don't know about where you live. I live in a small town. I don't know everyone. I don't love everyone. I mean, how can that really be true? And I cannot explain it, but I can assure you it's true. There is, I mean, I can't start crying because it will smear my makeup, but I could cry when I think about the truth that God actually loves each of us so purely and so completely. I mean, it's beyond awesome. Anyway, and then eventually I was told I couldn't stay. And in talking about that, was given basically a list, a to-do list of work I still had to do. Who told you that you can't stay? Did you see Jesus? No, it was this group of, I'm going to call them people for lack of any other word, this group of people who had initially greeted me, they went with me down this path and it was, I'm going to say it was one of them, but it's a different kind of communication. It's not like you and I are doing. It's very pure. It's very absolute. I mean, all of the knowledge is absolute. You would ask me originally, like, how did I know it was Jesus? And it just was. I mean, it's not a question. I've been married for 40 years. If I saw my husband in the store, I know my husband. I wouldn't have to ask if he were my husband. And it's the same, it's a very pure, and I hate the word, I don't know, telepathy. I don't use that word because it's still, it just sounds a little too, a little too woo-woo. And so I don't know what it is, but it's really a transfer of energy. It's a transfer of purity of communication. So was it one person? Was it the group? I don't really know. No, that's fair. But it was very clear. And it's interesting because everything I hear you saying, whether it's the color or the flowers or how communication happens, it's at a different depth than we can understand on earth. It's like on earth we're seeing in two dimension and you're seeing in three dimension in heaven. It's just, and I understand you're trying to put words to it. And I love that. I actually think it's coming across so beautifully. Dr. Neal, the list that you were given to come back and do, are you able to share any of that? No. Okay. Okay. No, here's the thing. And I'm asked that frequently and some of the things have come to pass. Some of them haven't. Everything on this list involves other people and theirs is really not my story to tell. There are some of the things that have come to pass that have involved other people and I've asked for permission to share and they've basically said no. Okay. I do talk about my son's death because he's, I think he would approve. But I will tell you that there isn't anything on that list that was something I wanted. There's nothing on the list that was something I felt qualified to do. Everything on the list was going to be challenging in one way or another. And for a long time, I have to say, why me? I had a good life. I don't need any of this. But really, as I've reflected on it over the years, I've come to realize the fact is none of us change or grow or deepen our ability to love unless we're challenged. When things are good, things are good. Nobody changes. Nobody changes when things are good. If you look back, if any of you look back at your own life, you can see the way you've changed in response to challenges. And that is almost always what propels you into the future that was meant for you. And so everything on the list is challenging. The list isn't done yet. Will those things come to pass? I don't know. They're not under my control. Dr. Neal, one of the items on the list that you've been open about in the past, as well as you just referenced it, was the passing of your son. Are you comfortable to share what that journey was like connected to the list? Sure. It was terrible. No, at the time of my drowning, he was a healthy nine-year-old. And I had no reason to believe that he was going to die at a young age. I was told about his coming death and, of course, asked what any rational person would ask, which is, why? We all want to know the answers to why. I mean, that's true in every situation. And when I asked the why, I was immediately taken back to my life review, in which, among everything we've talked about, I had been shown again and again and again the beauty that had come out of each one of those painful, wounding experiences. Albeit, you know, multiple times removed. And what I was reminded at the time was that it is always a matter of trust. Do you trust God's promise to us that beauty comes of all things? Do you trust that God has a plan for us, each one of us individually and the world that's one of hope? And it's always a matter of trust. You know, we always ask that question of why because we want to decide whether something's worthwhile or not. But that's not the way it works. It's a matter of trust. And so, you know, I carried that for many years. He was nine at the time and he died when he was 19. And it was a daily question, you know, is today the day? And do I trust? And that issue of trust for me is the fundamental question that each one of us has to ask, not just once a day, continually throughout the day. When situations come up, we've all, you know, seen people of faith have their faith shaken, or they were really faithful and then something happened and they lost their faith. Well, I would contend that those people never made the transformation from faith into trust. Because trust is a choice. Trust is based on what's happened in your life leading up to there. And then you say, yeah, actually, I trust because I know that God's promises are true. They've been shown to be true, not in my life, Mary Neal's, I don't care. You know, you can believe what I have to say or don't, doesn't matter to me. But I know that in each person's life individually, if they go back and look at their life analytically, they will find the hand of God. And they will be able to collect enough evidence, enough data to be able to make that decision to say, yeah, actually, I trust that those promises are true then, they're true today, and they will be true tomorrow. Dr. Neal, these insights are so rich and profound. And I'm so thankful for you with us right now and for what our viewers are hearing. Dr. Neal, do you remember coming back into your body? I do. You do, okay. Will you tell us about that? For different people, different people who have had near-death experiences have different accounts. Mine was really quite boring. I just was taken back down this pathway, and then I sort of sat in my body, and there I was. And I opened my eyes, and I saw the expression on these, again, dear friends of mine who had been doing the CPR. And I'll never forget it, because I think it was this mix of surprise that, oh my gosh, like, she's breathing? She's alert? What? But she was dead as a doornail. And then, you know, overwhelming relief and excitement. But then I'm pretty sure in their expressions, I could also read, oh my gosh, now what? What are we supposed to do with this? I mean, when I came out of the boat, you know, I had broken legs. I'd been underwater for half an hour. I mean, I was not good. I was in very bad shape. And we were on the side of a river that was very inaccessible. We didn't have cell phones or sat phones. And even if we did at that point in time in this part of Chile, there was no medical care. I mean, there was no one to call anyway. And I'm pretty sure they were just sort of thinking, well, wow. What are we going to do now? And then, I mean, it went on from there. But that was my reentry. I remember at the time thinking, oh, really? I'm back? You've got to be kidding. But it was interesting because for about two weeks, I sort of, I meaning the real me, the spiritual me, sort of felt neither here nor there. And I'm describing it as here and there, but I don't believe that. I mean, I think the spiritual world is all around us. We exist within it. You know, it's sort of like, I mean, a square, a two-dimensional square exists within a cube. It just doesn't know it. I mean, we exist within the spiritual realm. Heaven is, you know, here. It's all around us. So even though I talk about being neither here nor there, I'm really talking about dimensionally, I guess. I don't really know what words to use. But for about two weeks, I didn't have any pain, despite having broken bones and all sorts of things. It was really, I mean, incredible in the true sense of the word. And as you were journeying through your recovery, you know, coming from the background of being a scientist and a surgeon, were you struggling with what you'd experienced? Absolutely. Okay. I mean, I'll admit, if I heard my own story, I mean, I would like to think I'd be more gracious, but I wouldn't have been. I would have rolled my eyes and thought, you know, sure, whatever. Like, that's a, you know, hallucination. It's, you know, DMT release. It's something. It's not, certainly not true. It's not real. It's not spiritual. And so, I mean, I'm a cynical person. I shouldn't say that. I'm a very skeptical person. And I would not have accepted my experience and didn't accept my experience as spiritual, even though I knew what I knew. And I know that all the people I've talked to would say the same thing. It is what it is. And there's really nothing that will shake that knowledge. And that's true of every profound spiritual experience, anywhere where God is present. It's a very different experience. And it's not even a memory. When I talk today about this experience, I'm not recalling a memory. I'm experiencing it present tense, because I think it's the shift of time and dimension. Let's see, what was I just going to say? Well, I was wondering about how you were struggling, maybe, with this idea that this had happened to you because you have this scientific mind. And if you sought to try to disprove it at all. Right. In addition to not really being able to get beyond my skepticism, I also was very motivated to find an explanation that was scientific, because I knew that if I could find a reason, meaning hypoxia, neurotransmitter release, anything that I could hang my hat on, then I'd be able to ignore everything I've been told. I would be able to ignore this whole list of things that I didn't want to do. But most importantly, I knew that I could ignore what I've been told about my oldest son. And so I was pretty motivated to find any explanation that was reasonable. And I spent months and months trying. I didn't just read one account of whatever, cold water immersion, which I might add was not applicable. But I went back and I looked at the original studies and the original work on basically every explanation, what I would call now excuses. But I tried to find anything. At the time, I had never read Raymond Moody's book. I didn't even know anything about near-death experiences. This was really very foreign to me. But ultimately, I had to come to the conclusion that this had been a real and true spiritual experience, which radically changed my life in many ways, not the least of which is I had to eventually reconcile being a scientist, yet having a profound spiritual experience. And what I came to realize is that they're not exclusionary. They coexist very comfortably because they address different questions and different issues. Science is real. I mean, I'm still a scientist and I'm still analytical, and I think that's a good thing. But science delves into the question of how. How does it work? How could I have this experience? How could I be underwater that long and still survive? I mean, science will always be the means by which we try to talk about and answer the question of how. Spiritual beliefs address the question of why. Why do we exist? Why is our body more than just a physical machine? What is our soul? What is our spirit? Why do we love? There are many things that science can't explain. Faith steps in and does provide that explanation. So I think it's the different questions of why and how that allow them to not only coexist, but I think they—I can't think of the word—but I think science and faith are mutually beneficial. Well, Dr. Neal, I think so many people are tuning in right now and riveted by what you've shared and what you're sharing. For that person watching right now, your question, why? Why do I exist? Maybe it struck their heart, and right now they're saying, why do I exist? What would you say to them directly? I would say you exist to love. You exist to love, be loved, and fill this world with love. I would also say that I hope you don't believe anything I've said today because I really issue this challenge every time I speak to anyone. Try to prove me wrong in your own life. Do your own work and try to prove me wrong. Try to prove anything I've said wrong because I know that if any person with an open heart undertakes a sincere effort to look at their life and even ask the question like, no, God's not present in my life, I know they're going to be able to see evidence, clear evidence in their own life of God's presence. And that begins this journey of transformation that I think leads to the joy-filled life that I believe is intended for us. And Dr. Neal, I've got the Bible sitting right here, and I have to ask you, because I'm sure you've taken some deep dives into the Bible, especially after all of this experience. Would you say what you experienced lines up with what the Bible says about this world, Jesus, and heaven in our afterlife? Yes. In a word? Yes. Yes. That was good and conclusive, like a good doctor. Well, Dr. Neal, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for sharing your story. It is really an absolute privilege, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I appreciate the opportunity.