They Weren't The First Choice?!? | Get To The Hook

Welcome to Get to the Hook. I'm your co-host Charles Latty-Bodier. And I'm your co-host Eric Colley. Guess what? The budget just got expanded here and we were able to purchase a time machine. Oh, wow. So we're gonna go back and we're gonna see how music could have been much, much different. Actually, we don't really have a time machine. Not yet, anyway. We're working on it. If we did, would we even know? If somebody changed the past, I wouldn't know. Yeah, maybe we're actually using it right now. Yeah. The hook this week comes to us from Vanessa Williams, who did an interview where she admitted something about, I think, argued, not even argued. No, it's not even argued. Definitely her biggest hit and how it almost didn't happen, at least not for her. Yeah. And I thought this would be an interesting, like, sliding doors kind of thing. Like, if you take this song away from this artist and give it to this person, how does it affect both of their careers? That's what we're gonna be talking about is artists who were not the first choice, not just for songs. These are career-defining, iconic hits that were not meant for the people who had the hits with them. And my question, if you find out that it's, if you know it's not, wasn't intended for you, does that hurt more or do you just, you're just fine with it because you actually got a hit? I think it depends on who it was offered to. Yeah, because you could actually, even though you had the hit, you'd be like, why the hell did they go to that person? Vanessa Williams was on Jesse Tyler Ferguson's Dinners on Me podcast, and she was talking about what, like you said, she had a lot of hits. She had a bunch of big hit songs, but inarguably the biggest. The song number one for five weeks in the spring of 1992, got some Grammy nominations. One of the biggest songs of the 90s. You guys know this one. This is Save the Best for Last. That chorus is so, it's not ironic, it's coincidental now. She was the best and she was Save the Best. Yes. And she probably didn't know that when she was singing it. She didn't know it when she released it. She didn't find out until after it had been a hit. What she told Jesse Tyler Ferguson was that the songwriter said, you know you are a third choice. She was like, no, I didn't know that. The two artists that it was offered to originally, especially at that time, because Vanessa Williams had had a top 10 song called Dreamin' in 1989. And then the first single from her second album, The Comfort Zone, was called Running Back to You. It made the top 20. She had some hits. And Save the Best for Last was actually the third single from that album. They didn't even lead with it. And then it went to number one and changed the course of her career. And she had a bunch of hits after that. But she was not a huge artist in 1991. It could have gone either way. All right. I think I can, I guess. I don't think you will get it, but go ahead. One of them has to be Janet Jackson. No, we're going to get to some songs offered to Janet, but no, big ballad singers, people who were legendary at that time, certainly much bigger than Vanessa Williams. But had they done it, I don't think we would know this song. The first person they gave it to. Barbra Streisand. She was second. Oh, wait a second. Barbra Streisand, she was their second choice. OK, I'll tell you, the first choice had been around for a while. Huge star. She's still very famous. It was coming off of two very, very big hits in 1989 and 1990. So I could see why they thought she would be a good fit. Paul Abdul. Bette Midler. Oh, OK. Bette Midler in 89, of course, had Wind Beneath My Wings from Beaches. And then in 1990, her song From a Distance was a huge, huge hit for her. So they thought, oh, she's doing these big sweeping adult contemporary ballads. Let's offer it to Bette. And she's like, no, I'm good. So they go, well, let's go to Barbra Streisand. No, she didn't want it either. So Vanessa Williams got it as the third choice. Wow. And it changed her career. I could hear it kind of as Bette Midler. I could kind of hear it. And I think you're right, because of those songs. And maybe it would have been a hit for Bette. I don't think it would have been number one for five weeks. Right. And I don't think it would have been number one. It wouldn't have been, even if Barbra Streisand did it, it wouldn't have been a hit for, it wouldn't have been number one for five weeks. And you're right. It would have been forgotten in the canon of Barbra Streisand songs. It would just be another song. And Vanessa Williams just sold that song. She did such a good job with it. I mean, it was meant for her. And in that same interview... No, apparently it wasn't meant for her, but she made it hers. And in that interview, she reveals another song that was supposed to have been hers, and she would have wanted it, except for an assistant made a mistake. So she said her producer, a guy named Keith Thomas... Ex-assistant, I'm guessing. Yeah. Todd. His name's Todd. Oh, Todd. Damn you, Todd. But this might've worked out. So Vanessa Williams says that her producer, Keith Thomas, produced Save the Best for Last, was also a songwriter. And when she was doing her second album, he sent her a cassette tape, because that's what you did in 1991, 1990. And it had a bunch of demos on it for songs he was submitting to her. And so he had his assistant, Todd, put the tape together to send these songs to Vanessa. And she found out, after the fact again, Todd had accidentally left a song off the tape that Keith had meant to send to Vanessa, but Todd forgot and it got sent to somebody else instead. Damn it, Todd. And you know this song, because it was another number one hit. This is Amy Grant, Baby, Baby. So that was meant to be sent to Vanessa Williams, but Todd... Todd left it off the tape, and Vanessa Williams goes, I would love to have recorded that song. She absolutely would not have passed on it. I actually would love to hear that with more of a R&B... Not that there's anything wrong. Amy Grant obviously had a big hit with it. But then what does that do to Amy Grant's career, if you take that song out? I mean, she had already been a huge Christian star. She'd had a number one hit with Peter Cetera. But that album, Heart in Motion, the Amy Grant album, when that was the first single, she had four top tens from that record, because that song just was such a big moment. It was such a huge hit for her. If you take that song away from Amy Grant, was she just a Christian singer in the 80s who had that one duet with Peter Cetera, and not become this big pop star in the 90s that she was for a while? And would Vanessa Williams have had another big hit with Baby Baby? Wow. Todd... Todd had to go and mess things up, or not. If you're Amy Grant, you're happy Todd left it off. Yeah, exactly. Amy Grant's going, where's Todd? He's her manager now. Way to go, Todd. Good job, Todd. I mean, it worked out for everybody. Vanessa Williams got Save the Best for Last. Amy Grant got Baby Baby. Both of those things worked out very well for both of them, but neither was originally meant to be. I wonder if there's a world where you could, you know, get them to record it. Let's have Vanessa Williams go in and someone produce that up for her. She sang literally just the two title words with Jesse Tyler Ferguson. He goes, have you ever performed that song? And she goes, no. He goes, you should put that in your show and tell that story. Like when she's performing live, why not do it? Do it. Do the version that you would... And anybody who's going to see Vanessa Williams would be happy to hear Baby Baby. It's the same era. Right. Super catchy song. That is such a catchy song. But yeah. But would it be as catchy if you take out the... Yeah, I don't know what the production would have been like. I mean, Vanessa Williams was pretty poppy. It might not have been radically different. Who knows? All right. So you've got some more stories like that. All right. This next one, there was a songwriting couple. They were married at the time. They got divorced in 2000, but they still worked together professionally. So an amicable divorce. Their names were George Merrill and Shannon Rubicam. And they had written this song. I know who they are. You know who they are. So they had written this song in the mid 80s, and they knew that Janet Jackson was recording an album. And it was the Control album that was the breakthrough album for Janet. Her first two albums before that had not done very well, and they were kind of forgettable. Even Janet's like... But she was still Michael Jackson's little sister. Sure. And she's doing this album that's poised to be a big hit. And they're like, we have written this song. It is such a good dance pop R&B song. It's going to be a huge hit for Janet. Janet said no. Because she was working with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. They had sort of a... They had a vibe going there. The three of them wrote together, produced songs. So she wasn't really looking for outside songs. So they have this great song they've written. They're like, this is going to be a hit. Janet doesn't want it. So Clive Davis hears the song, and he goes, I've got this new singer I'm working with, and this song is perfect for her. And they're like, we have no idea who this is. Why would we give this guaranteed hit to this unknown? Because I know the name you're about to say. And the song they wrote became her second number one hit, How Will I Know. I can't hear that as anybody else, even as I love Janet Jackson. But I could see Janet doing that. It's a little bit like when I think of you, sort of-ish, but... A little bit. Honestly, this is a hot take. That might be my favorite Whitney Houston song. I know she's got all the ballads. I love that song. That is beyond hot take, dude. Saving all my love for you, I mean, the ballads are... No, not that, but... I mean, I'm Every Woman is great. So you're the guy who, when the wedding is going on, you're the guy who runs to the dance floor when How Will I Know comes on? I don't know if I've ever been to a wedding where How Will I Know was played, actually. What? Eh, no, I don't think so. That is, that's the standard fare in every... I love that song. Yeah, see? It's a great song. It's not just overplayed, I just... It is overplayed, for sure. I don't know. For you to say that that's your favorite Whitney Houston song... I don't know. I don't know if I'm standing by my own take, honestly, when I think about it. Then you've got, oh, well then you've got My Love Is Your Love and that later 90s stuff. Those are some good songs. Yeah, see, good. I'm glad we had this conversation, Eric, so you can change your stance. Well, because I'm thinking of it in terms of that mid to late 80s Whitney Houston run, which was 90% ballads. Where Do Broken Hearts Go? Didn't We Almost Have It All? A lot of those songs, to me, are just kind of... Yeah, some of them were. They're fine, but they're just sort of there. How Will I Know just pops out. So George and Shannon write this song. It winds up going to this unknown Whitney Houston, who then, of course, goes on one of the greatest runs in music history, and they're like, well, let's write another song for her. So they write this other song, like, this is a guaranteed hit. Whitney passes on it. Like, nah, I'm not interested. And so then they give it to Belinda Carlyle, who was very hot at that time, and was working on her second album that had Heaven is a Place on Earth on it. So that album was stacked with hits. And like, we got this song, it's going to be a guaranteed hit. Belinda did record a demo of it, and then when she listened to it, she's like, no, it's not for me, and left it off her album. George and Shannon still believed very firmly in this song that had been passed on by Whitney Houston and Belinda Carlyle, and they said, you know what, let's just record it ourselves. Let's do it ourselves. They had a recording act called Boy Meets Girl. In 1988, they hit the top five with it, It's such a specific time. It was inescapable in that moment. It's such a specific 80s time. And a specific time in the 80s. Yes. And definitely could have been a Belinda Carlyle song. Could have been. I think Whitney could have done that, and it would have been another number one hit for her. Like, she just couldn't miss it at that point. Yeah. But the funny thing about all this story is, so they write this hit for Janet Jackson that winds up going to Whitney Houston. So then they write another song for Whitney. She doesn't want it. It becomes a hit for them. But then when Whitney rejected Wedding for a Star to Fall, George and Shannon thought, well, let's just write a different song for Whitney Houston. So they did. And it was I Want to Dance with Somebody. Your second favorite Whitney Houston song, right? No, it's funny. I don't like that one. I mean, it's fine. You know what? I have to apologize to you. Exhale is also pretty great. I'm going to have to apologize to Eric. In my mind, because they are kind of the same. Are you thinking I Want to Dance with Somebody? I was thinking I Want to Dance with Somebody. Oh, no, that I've heard at weddings. That's the one. Oh, of course. So when that comes on at the wedding. No, I'm like, blah. This is for white girls who can't dance. Yeah, and you're like, hey, put on How Will I Know. That's such a better song. It could have been a Janet Jackson song. It is not the same song. They are the same song. They are the same exact song. Play it right now, wherever you are. Stop what you're doing for a second. Same song. I mean, they're just up-tempo pop songs. Well, they were written by the same people. Right. But they're different songs. The differences are enough. No, I Want to Dance with Somebody. I could, it's fine. I could never hear that song again. I can see Eric just running. Oh, How Will I Know? Yeah, you know. Anyway. Neither is Whitney's best song. I didn't say best. You said your favorite. Well, that doesn't mean I think it's the best. That's certainly not her best vocal performance by any stretch of the imagination. Whitney's voice is way better than that. But it's just all those gloopy 80s ballads. Just it's like my least favorite kind of thing of anybody. Those adult contemporary ballads that just float by on the radio a lot of the time. The only thing that saved a lot of those songs was her voice. Certainly. She elevated a lot of those songs. She was better than some of that material. I'm being honest. All right, this next one. All right. I don't know what would have happened to this artist's career if she had lost this song. We might not know who she is now. So Max Martin, the king of pop songwriting, who has written a bajillion hits for a bajillion artists, wrote this song in the late 90s. And he said, this song is perfect for TLC. At that time, TLC were recording their fan mail album, which had No Scrubs and Unpretty on it. So many hits on that record. And he said, this song is perfect for you. T-Boz heard the song and immediately passed on it. And after we play the song, I will tell you exactly what she said about it. It's hilarious. When TLC passed on it, he was like, okay, well, there's this new group I'm working with. You know, the Backstreet Boys are really starting to hit right now. They could do a great. They could do a version. Do a good job. They're like, no, it's not for us. So he went to five. Remember five, the British boy band had a song when the lights go out and their name was spelled the number five, I-V-E. Five passed on it. So now we're getting to the fourth artist that he's offering this song to. And she had not released any music. She was recording her debut album. So she's like, I'll take it. And it was Britney Spears, Baby One More Time. If you pull that peg out of Britney Spears' career, do we even know who Britney Spears is? It is a huge launching pad. Rolling Stone ranked that as the greatest debut single in history. I mean, they are known for hot takes, but you can definitely make an argument. I mean, whether you like it or not, there's no denying the cultural impact that had the image it created of Britney Spears for good and bad. The schoolgirl thing was kind of problematic, but it made her a star. And also this sort of domestic violence that some people took out of it. And by the way, I was just thinking if the Backstreet Boys do it, it's a different take. A guy saying it. Yeah, a guy doing it, then it removes that whole stink from it. But I don't know how they'd look in the school garage. It would have been memorable. I'm just saying. That's for sure. I don't know. Max Martin, you know, English is not his first language. So I don't think he got the domestic violence connotations of it. Wasn't thinking that. But T-Boz certainly did. And TLC, they were never like a girl power, Spice Girls kind of group. But they were very much about their power. They were not going to do that. So this is what T-Boz said to MTV News back then. She says, I like the song, but do I think it's a hit? Do I think it's TLC? Was I going to say, hit me, baby, one more time? Hell no. And I understand her reasons. It would have been so cool to hear TLC do that, though. What they could have done with it. I mean, the production would have been different. Wouldn't have been as popular. Yeah, the production would have been different. It would have been slinkier and funkier. That's why I can hear the Backstreet Boys doing it before TLC. It sounds like a Backstreet Boys song. It's the same drum beat that all those productions have. But what does that do to Britney Spears' career if you take that song away? Yeah, it's different. She could have still had hits. I think she still would have had hits. I just think that song in particular makes her, as you said, a cultural phenomenon. And if you take that away, yes, she's still going to have a career. But it might not be what it is now. And by the way, or what it became. And maybe you could make the argument that maybe that would have been better for her overall. Also, if her image hadn't been that, you know, naive schoolgirl kind of thing that was presented when she was still a teenager. Maybe that does change the whole trajectory of not just her career, but her life. I don't know. But she also almost lost one of her other most iconic career-defining songs. Kathy Dennis. I don't know if you remember who Kathy Dennis was. Oh, I remember. She was a big pop star in the early 90s. Had hits like Too Many Walls, Touch Me All Night Long. Just a Dream. As her pop career kind of cooled off, she went into songwriting. And she's had a very successful career as a songwriter. She wrote Can't Get You Out of My Head for Kylie Minogue. She wrote I Kissed a Girl for Katy Perry. And she wrote a song in the mid-2000s, early 2000s, that she thought, again, perfect for Janet Jackson. Everybody loved writing songs for Janet Jackson. The problem was Janet Jackson didn't need outside songwriters. So Janet didn't turn this one down. So Kathy Dennis did this demo. But she got it done too late to submit to Janet, because she had finished her album. So she's like, OK, well, I'm going to give it to Kylie Minogue, because we have just done Can't Get You Out of My Head. That's been a huge hit. Kylie, here's another hit for you. Kylie Minogue said, nah, nah, I don't want this song. It's too weird. So Britney took it. It was Toxic. So Toxic and Baby One More Time almost were not Britney Spears songs. That's, yeah. That's a big one-two punch. You take both of those out, it's, again, it's just different, right? Without Baby, does Toxic even do anything? Probably not. I don't know. If it had been a Kylie Minogue song, it might have been a hit in Europe. I don't know if it would have hit in America the same way. But Britney also passed on some songs. Lady Gaga submitted Telephone to her, and Britney said no. So Lady Gaga just did it for herself with Beyonce. It became a huge hit. And one that Britney didn't pass on, her management did. I don't know if Britney even knew that it had been offered to her first. And after Britney turned it down, it went to Mary J. Blige. Mary J. Blige said, it's a fine song, but it does not fit my style. I can't sing this. And the song was making the rounds. The Dream wrote it. And he became a big artist and a big songwriter. But this was sort of the launching pad of his career. And a singer cornered him at an awards show and grabbed him by the face and said, that song is mine. He's like, I kind of laughed. And she goes, no, you're not hearing me. That song is mine. That singer was Rihanna. The song was Umbrella. Imagine if Rihanna didn't do that. Imagine if Britney Spears did. And I thought about this because that came out in the summer of 2007. It was number one, like late summer. I remember that fall was when Britney attacked the paparazzi car with an umbrella. Not even as a joke. Had she put that song out and then that moment happened, it would have compounded that moment, made it so much worse. It would never have gone away. Yeah, exactly. Then it would have also, people would have looked at it and said, oh, this is just a marketing stunt. And it clearly was not that. There was a lot going on. It was a lot more serious than that. But imagine you, and this is the craziest thing. I love the aggressiveness, by the way, of RiRi just being like, give me my song. Give me that. I want it. I'm taking it. And she was right. I mean, to this day, that is one of her defining songs. I wonder if she had heard it already and maybe even recorded it in real life, but they hadn't, I don't know. But there's a reason she was so in love with it. But you need to make sure that if she recorded it and even released it, she could, as long as the dream gets paid. But if Britney Spears has just put it out. But remember, at the time, Jay-Z was the head of Def Jam Records and had signed her. And so if RiRi didn't grab him by the face, Jay probably would have been, right. I mean, it worked out for everybody. It was the dream's career. He wrote a bunch of hits, like I said, recorded a bunch of hits as an artist. But this wasn't the only one of Rihanna's songs that she was not the first choice for. Again, you look at what could have happened to her career. Ponda Replay was her first big hit. She could have easily been a one-hit wonder after that song. A lot of people thought she would be when that came out. Then the song that made her, like, okay, she's more than one hit was when S.O.S. came out. S.O.S. was not for her. That was given to Christina Milian, who was coming off the song Dip It Low. Christina Milian turned it down and now says she very, very much regrets that. Because she thinks, I could have been Rihanna. I could have had that career, but I passed on S.O.S. Talk about sliding doors. Christina Milian, she's beautiful. She could sing. She could dance. I'm surprised she wasn't a bigger star than she was. I can see it. I can definitely see it. And then does Rihanna just become the Ponda Replay girl? That is an interesting thing you said about Christina Milian. There was a time, and I always wondered that. I was like, maybe she just didn't want it. But she said she regrets it now because I think she wanted it. Because I always thought that she could have been a much bigger R&B star, pop star. She had everything going for her. She had a hit. She had the look. She had the voice. She had the charisma. She had everything. Maybe because she just passed on the wrong song. Song selection becomes so freaking important. Wow. But Umbrella and S.O.S. are not the only two giant defining Rihanna hits she was not first choice for. It's amazing she has a career, honestly, when you look at it. Her biggest number one hit, We Found Love, with Calvin Harris. Calvin Harris made the track. Needed a singer for it because he doesn't always sing his songs. And he's like, I've got this big dance banger. I'm going to give it to a big pop star, Nicole Scherzinger, who was trying to launch her solo career from the Pussycat Dolls, which never really took off. She passed on it. So he gave it to somebody who could really belt it out. Christina Aguilera. Didn't want it. So then Rihanna gets it. So Umbrella, S.O.S., and We Found Love were not originally supposed to be her songs. There is something to just waiting around, right? Hoping everybody else's rejects just fall to you. Which is crazy to me that by the time We Found Love came out, Rihanna was already a much bigger star. I mean, no offense, but then Nicole Scherzinger and even Christina Aguilera at that point. Rihanna was a hotter star if you're trying to get a hit. Maybe he just didn't think she'd be interested because that song did help. I mean, it wasn't the first of that like turbo pop dance pop era, like Lady Gaga and Katy Perry and Kesha were setting that off. But that was a defining moment of that era. That kind of club track. Maybe he just didn't think Rihanna would be interested in it. I don't know, but what a classic that song is. But then Rihanna also passed on some songs. She was offered a song that Sia had written for called Cheap Thrills. And Rihanna was like, nah, I'm good. And so Sia was like, well, I'll just record it myself. And it went to number one for her. Ed Sheeran wrote your all-time favorite song, Shape of You. I'm going to keep telling that lie until it becomes the truth. Fine, I'll wear it. I'll wear it. No, but Ed Sheeran, when he wrote Shape of You, thought this is perfect for Rihanna. I'm going to give it to her. But then before he even submitted to her, he realized those lyrics don't really work for her. Yeah. And it's true. When you listen to it, it's like, no, that doesn't fit her vibe. So he just kept it for himself. Yeah, it definitely feels... That's a male... Not to... Whatever. But if she had done it, it would have been great. Sure. Because any song Rihanna did was pretty great. I don't know. Imagine her singing, I'm in love with the Shape of You to A$AP Rocky. Right. I mean, I don't think they were together at that time, but... It doesn't fit, yeah. Whoever it is, it just doesn't. Yeah. Max Martin, we talked about maybe one more time, had another song that he wrote with Dr. Luke, who's very controversial, very polarizing figure in music these days. But Dr. Luke and Max Martin wrote a song together. And the lore is that they heard the song Maps by the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, big indie rock classic song of the early 2000s. And they loved the song, but they hated there was no real big chorus on it. So the story is that I guess Max Martin told Dr. Luke is like, I love how the song builds. And then when you think that big explosive chorus is going to hit, it just drops back into the verse again. And it drove him crazy because he is a hooky chorus guy. That's why he has so many hits. So he's like, let's do our version of that kind of indie rock song, make it pop and put just a nuclear bomb kind of chorus on it. And they did it and they thought, this is great. It's got a rock vibe. It's edgy. Let's give it to Pink. Because that fits what she did. And Pink said, no, I'm good. So when Pink passed on it, another artist swooped in, Hilary Duff. She's like, this song's great. This is a hit. I'm going to do this. And unfortunately realized I can't hit those high notes. Hilary Duff was aware like, I can't hit the notes. This song can't make it what they saw it. Yeah. She's good on her realizing like something's out of your range. That's not that you're a bad singer, but just not everything's for everybody. Right. And if you change it, it probably doesn't have the same impact. So then this third artist is like, I want it. And Max Martin and Dr. Luke did not want to give it to her. We're trying to do this like rocky, edgy. I mean, still pop, but like a little bit more aggressive. And because this reality show pop singer. Yeah, they're like, Kelly Clarkson can't sing this. We were aiming higher than this. She's not the vibe. And she's like, let me try. And she did. She said, hold my beer. And it was Since You've Been Gone. I mean, that is one of the great choruses of all time. Yeah. That is such a good song. And now it's, I mean, I could see Pink doing it. It would have been a hit for Pink. Oh, I could definitely see Pink doing that. Pink would clobber that song. I would imagine, by the way, Pink has done that live at some point. Maybe. I mean. They should do a duet of it. That'd be kind of fun to hear. Yeah. Those two voices just soaring over each other. Totally be a Pink. But again, and Kelly Clarkson, of course, it had a moment like this. Was her American Idol song. But then she had Miss Independent. She had Breakaway, I think, came first from that album. So she'd had a couple hits beyond just being American Idol. But I think if you take Since You've Been Gone out of her discography. Well, even those. It does the rest of her career. Even those hits you just mentioned are a much different sound and just don't. They haven't endured as well. I mean. Correct. They don't grab you like that. That is a chorus that. I mean, honestly, as pop music goes, that is an all-timer. That is a song that everybody loves. It has endured well beyond its moment. Yeah. And it defined her career and changed the whole trajectory of it and gave her so much power to do everything else she wanted to do. You like it more than How Will I Know? I mean, I want to bring up old ----, but. I don't know. I like them both pretty well. You don't like Since You've Been Gone? Who doesn't like that? No. How is it possible to not like that song? I'm telling you right now. Since You've Been Gone is a much better song than How Will I Know. It just is. Maybe it probably is. Yeah. And definitely over I Want to Dance With Somebody. That's not even in the conversation. This is weird to me because the artist who had the hit with it, again, is the artist who wrote it. I'm like, how was he not his own first choice? Did he pass on his own song? The thing is, he had had some hits as a singer, but mostly was known for writing and producing for other artists. And he wrote this song and he goes, this song is so perfect for CeeLo Green. I think this song is absolutely, CeeLo's going to kill this. And this was when CeeLo was coming off of Norris Barkley. He was having his own hits at that time. This could have been a big hit for CeeLo. CeeLo's label said, no, he's recording a Christmas album. He can't do this right now. I didn't even know CeeLo Green recorded a Christmas album, honestly. I have heard it, but. How is it? It's decent, you know. I mean, he can sing. Yeah, he can sing. So, you know. So when CeeLo's label was like, no, he's busy with Christmas. Pharrell said, well, I'll just do it myself then. And it was happy. Have you seen, I don't know where I saw this article recently about the string of hits that Pharrell and the Neptunes. No, but I know they were unstoppable. Yeah, it's crazy. Well, there was a period in 2013 when Pharrell was the top two songs on the charts. He had Blurred Lines with Robin Thicke at number one, and then Get Lucky with Daft Punk at number two. Two very different songs. But the fact that CeeLo Green's label turned down something from Pharrell. Well, if Pharrell had written a Christmas song, they would have said yes. And another. That is nuts. Another song Pharrell wrote for an artist. This was before Happy. This was years before when he was still kind of making his name. He was already famous, but still making his name. But as a young, up and coming songwriter, Pharrell got the chance to pitch songs to Michael Jackson when Michael was recording his Invincible album that came out in 2001. And so he thought, I'm going to go back to that old school Michael sound, like that off the wall, rock with you era. And Michael's like, no, I've done that basically. I don't want to sound like I used to. So he rejected it. And Pharrell said, OK, well, I'll just give it to Justin Timberlake then. And it was rock your body. Your body. Which sounds very much like rock with you. And I can see why Michael didn't do it. But also, it'd be so cool to hear Michael Jackson do rock your body. But it worked out for Justin Timberlake. Sure did. This next one is like Pharrell. It's an artist who had a hit with a song they wrote. So again, you think, well, how did they reject their own song? It's because he didn't write it for himself. In 1979, he was in a bar and Joey Ramone from the Ramones comes in. And the two of them just start talking and they're friendly. And Joey goes, why don't you write a song for us? I'd love to do a song that you wrote. And he goes, OK. So he went home that night and wrote this song. And I was like, I'm going to give this to the Ramones. And John Landau, his manager, said, you idiot. Stop giving your hits away. You need a hit. Because he'd never had a top 10 song as an artist before. So he wound up not giving it to the Ramones, kept it for himself. Was this bar in New Jersey by any chance? It was in Asbury Park, New Jersey. It was Bruce Springsteen. And he kept the song for himself. And it became his very first top 10 hit in 1980. This is Hungry Heart. I can't picture the Ramones doing that. What would that have sounded like? That would have been more upbeat. It would have been a lot faster. Yeah, it would have been a lot faster. I could hear it. Don't think it would have been a hit. Not the way it was. Not for Bruce Springsteen. But also, that's not a knock on. No, the Ramones didn't have hits. That wasn't their thing. They didn't make, they never had a top 40 hit. But that's not who they were. I could see it being a Ramones classic. Sure. That Ramones fans would love. Yeah. And I don't know if Joey's feelings were hurt or not. Probably not. Yeah, so at this point, you gotta remember, so Born to Run, everybody knows that song. It actually wasn't that big of a chart hit. Didn't even make the top 20 when it came out. And Bruce had squeaked into the top 40 a couple times, but had never had any big hit songs. But a cover of his song Blinded by the Light had gone to number one. The song Because the Night that he wrote and gave to Patti Smith became a huge hit for her. That's why John Landau, his manager, was like, stop giving other people hits. You need one, dum-dum. So Bruce was like, eh, maybe you're right. And that was his first top 10 pop hit. All right. So John Landau was right. It's good to have those people around you. Managers, they make good decisions sometimes, guys. They do. Sometimes they do. This last one, this is hilarious to me. This group, the guy who wrote this song, wrote it with a specific group in mind who had never had any big hits at that point. Certainly not in America. They turned it down six times before they finally relented and recorded it. How do you even get the opportunity to turn something down six times? So the guy's name was Keith Forsey. He was a huge songwriter and producer. He'd worked with Donna Summer. He wrote Flashdance for Irene Cara. He was a big deal in the late 70s and early 80s. And he'd seen this Scottish band. And he's like, oh, these guys are great. I'm going to write a hit for them. So he writes a song. He's like, this is great. This is going to be such a hit. He submits it to them. And they go, dude, we write our own songs. We don't need you to give us songs. We're good. We don't take outside songwriter stuff. So he still believed in the song. So he offered it to Billy Idol, who was an artist he had worked with. Billy Idol said, nah, it's not for me. He offered it to The Fix, who, if you don't remember, The Fix was a big British band in the early 80s. Had the song One Thing Leads to Another. Had a couple other big hits. The Fix passed on it. So he offers it to Brian Ferry of Roxy Music, who said, I'm finished with my album. I don't have room for another song. But then I think this was a deliberate diabolical choice. I don't know that, but I'm going to guess. He offered it to The Pretenders, who were a big band in the 80s. Chrissy Hynde, the lead singer of The Pretenders, was married to the lead singer of the Scottish band he initially wrote it for. He kept submitting it to them and saying, hey, will you guys do this song? Well, reconsider. Six times they passed on this song. And then finally, they were like, you know what? We feel sorry for him. Let's just record it. It's just going to go on a soundtrack anyway. It's not even going to be on our album. Some stupid soundtrack thing that nobody cares about. It's on some teen movie. Nobody's going to know about this. It's never going to be a thing. It's just a song on a soundtrack for a teen movie. The teen movie was The Breakfast Club. Oh, my god. The song, well, the group is Simple Minds. The song is Don't You Forget About Me. One of the most enduring iconic songs of the 80s. Very iconic 80s song. Though it was not my favorite Simple Minds song, but I get its place. If you take that song out of their career, they wouldn't have had their other hits. Right. Like Alive and Kicking. I don't think that song would have done as well because they just weren't very well known. Right. They needed this. This was the launching pad in America. I get it. Six times. They were like, no. Do they feel stupid now when they play it live and be like, you know, we didn't see this song being anything. I don't know if they've ever liked it, honestly. I remember specifically Jim Carrey, the lead singer, saying that in the lyrics he's like, baby, like that. Because we don't say baby in our songs. I would never write the word baby in a song. I think it's cliche and stupid and passé. I would not do that. And now he is saddled with this song for the rest of his life. Right. They have to come out for the encore and go like, all right, we know you guys were just waiting for us to play this. We hate the song. But anyway, here it goes. But everybody else on earth loves it. And I mean, it worked out for them. I'm sure they don't regret having had that song. Because everything else they got in their career was basically. Or better yet, they just play it first song right off the bat, make everybody happy and then just play what they want to play. Yeah. Because if you go see Simple Minds, are you going just for that song? Because they did have a long career. They just didn't have a bunch of hits because they weren't that kind of band. So are you like a diehard fan? It's like, oh, I don't want to hear the hit. I have to say, when I think Simple Minds, I think it's right before. I guess it's the bridge, sort of. It's a musical bridge in Alive and Kicking. Yeah. The bass line is. It's great. Oh, it's so good. That song is fantastic. I can just listen to that breakdown right there. It's so good. Yeah. So good. But you probably never would have heard that. That's what I wait for in the encore. But you're right. But I probably might not. I might not have heard that song ever if they hadn't become such a huge success with that. Six times they passed on that. Wow. And then The Breakfast Club becomes this cult classic generational defining movie for Gen X. Do they owe that song becoming so big to the movie being what it was? I think it's one of those things that went back and forth. Yeah. I think the song being in the movie made people take notice. But I think then the song becoming such a hit made people interested in the movie. I think they fed off each other in a very. So without John Hughes, I don't get the bass solo in Alive and Kickin'. It would have happened. It's a tree in the woods, you know. If they record it and you never hear it, does it exist? It's mind-blowing. It's absolutely mind-blowing. All these things. I mean, the careers of Vanessa Williams, Amy Grant, Whitney Houston, Britney Spears, Rihanna, Kelly Clarkson. What happens to all these people if you take those songs out? It'd be totally different. It's mind-blowing. It's almost as mind-blowing as you loving How Will I Know and saying that. Whitney Houston's best song. I never said it was her best song. I just really. That song just makes me happy. I'm not letting it go that you said it was your favorite song by Whitney Houston. Might be that I'm just so tired of hearing all the other ones too. I'm so tired of hearing that one. You thought it was I Want to Dance with Somebody. You didn't even know which one it was. We'll go finish this argument just amongst ourselves. We'll let you. I mean, I know it's No Shape of You, but come on. Actually, it isn't. It really isn't. Oh, it's Better Than Shape of You. Come on now. Definitely isn't. It's that little synth bass. Where does Billboard put Whitney Houston's best songs? I Want to Dance with Somebody at number one. So, boo. And that's not by chart position because I Will Always Love You is far and away her biggest chart hit, 14 weeks at number one. Yeah, staff picks 25 best songs. That ain't helping. No, I don't know. I Want to Dance with Somebody is just one of those songs. It's the same song as How Will I Know. It's not the same song. That's going to do it for us. We're going to go finish this argument. We'll see you next time. I get to that.