Jaylen Brown Reveals How NBA Wealth Changed His Life & Relationships

It's probably one of the more vulnerable conversations I've had. God has already provided me with more than I could ever have imagined. I'll never make another dollar in this lifetime again. I'm extremely grateful for everything that I have. I was raised by a single mom, so I just wanted to alleviate any pressure I could on my side. When people say money can't buy happiness, and I'm kind of like, are you sure? More money, more problems. Friends, family, they can let you down, man. I had to learn to deal with envy. It changes you. Conversations become invoices. Lines get blurred. But that's been the hardest part for me to navigate, you know, because it puts you on an island. Isolates you. And money is fun, right? I don't want to be somber. What are you doing to bring joy in your life using money? I think traveling. Money don't make you rich, baby. I'm rich in life. I'm rich in experience. I'm rich in adversity. I'm rich in prosperity. That makes me happy. You got to develop tools of discernment, but only experience can kind of give you that, you know? But as a young person developing that, either a three-month window or a six-month window before you start to evaluate things, how they're going, how much money was spent, then you can, you know, make a decision from there. Welcome to Mental Wealth, brought to you by Boardroom and Ally Bank. In this series, we'll unpack the lessons learned from the financial journeys of some of the greatest minds in sports and entertainment. What's up, everybody? And welcome to a special Boardroom series aptly titled Mental Wealth with our partners, Ally Bank. And with me today, I got two special guests. First of all, from Ally Bank, the head of money wellness, Jack Howard. And this may sound weird to you, but Philadelphia 76ers all-star, Jalen Brown. Welcome to the show. Sure, thanks for having me. So you can't say something like mental wealth and not follow up for Jalen and I with a bit of a definition. So from your standpoint, with your experience, define what mental wealth means to you. Yeah, I want to give you some grounding on this conversation of what mental wealth means. It is bigger than numbers. It's not the numbers. It's not your net worth. It's really your relationship with money, your past with money. How is it showing up for you today? And most importantly, your values and how does that guide the decisions you make with money today, tomorrow, and someday? We're going to get into the emotions and the mindset of money. Yes. I remember the first time we spoke about it, it definitely registered. So when we first spoke, you and I, you asked me questions that like really registered with me just about what it means to have a relationship with money and like where that comes from. You know, I know for me, the things that we spoke about was just that like, you know, I've realized that it doesn't necessarily matter how much money you grew up with or didn't grow up with. Sometimes like the love in your house is more powerful than that. And for me, like I didn't necessarily worry about where a meal was coming from, but there was this stress about what money meant and people around me fought about money all the time and talked about money all the time. So I just instantly wanted to go out and figure out a way to make money. And I was almost like turned off by it. You know what I'm saying? In some ways, what would you say were your like first experiences and understandings of like where money fit into the world and into your life? That's a great question. I was raised by a single mom, so our resources weren't, they were limited to some degree. Even though my mom had a really good job, at times there was recessions in Atlanta, she had to work multiple jobs just to make sure she could provide. So I have friends who had things that I didn't have. I think that was my earliest experience where you could just tell they had the newest gear or shoes and we couldn't afford to get that. So I guess some of my earliest memories would be around seeing kind of when others around me, families had more and we had less. And Jaylen, what did that teach you about money? How do I get it? Okay. Because there's certain things, you want nice things, you want certain things for yourself. And you realize that that's not your reality. How do I make it my reality? Yeah, and Rich, I know you have an interesting money story too. So when you think back to your earliest memory of money and what it taught you, what comes up for you? Yeah, I was like scared of the conversation a bit only because my parents separated when I was 13 and my dad left. And the conversation was always about like, what are you leaving me with? Or like, what money do you have that I don't know about? And who's taking this and who's taking that? And it was so tumultuous that it was almost like, man, I don't even want any money from these people. Like I wanna figure out how I'm gonna take care of myself. And it probably confused me into thinking that money was really all you needed to be happy and fulfilled. Like that everything would go away as long as I could have a certain level of money and that there'd be a level of validation that I would live my life with if I had money. Like you'll see me differently and I'll feel differently if I have money. And that's just because it was only seen in a negative light for me. And you often find that with this money narrative that we're talking about now, it has nothing to do with money. There's something else under it. So for Jaylene, when you think about, you just talked about that early memory of money with your mom. It sounds like she was a provider, but you may have wanted more, which made you think of how do I get more? How did that play out as you got to high school and then on to college? Yeah, I think as basketball came into the picture, things kind of shifted. My platform and my level of play kind of demanded a level of attention that it wasn't necessarily monetary wealth, but you could see like wealth was being accumulated. Like I didn't have to pay for camps anymore. My mom didn't have to pay for camps anymore. I'm at around 13 to 14 years old. I didn't have to pay for basketball sneakers anymore. Anything basketball related, traveling or going to tournaments, like I had to pay for like just your normal everyday expenses, food or travel or hotel. But for the most part, everything from then had been covered. So as basketball came into the picture, it also kind of, I brought value in a different way that kind of shifted that dynamic at a very early age. And what did that do to your relationship with you and your mom as it related to money? Because it sounds like some of that pressure came, was relieved for her and you were able to also do something that you love. Yeah, and that was my motivation. It wasn't necessarily for myself. It was for the both of us. So to alleviate pressure, I didn't want her, she already worked hard enough in Atlanta and then there's traffic, there's a bunch of other things that go into the mental health. So I just wanted to alleviate any pressure I could on my side. So like any expenses, don't worry about it. Anything mom, don't worry about it. I'll take care of it. I just wanted to help out as much as I could. I feel like we were talking about this Jack and I before, there's almost like two stages, at least when you were a rookie 10 years ago, where like you make money and that checks those first few boxes, right? Where you're not necessarily thinking about like what you have. You just are now getting paid for what you do and you've gotten to this place that you wanted to be in so you can help your mom out and she doesn't have to stress those bills anymore. But you don't really necessarily feel wealthy, wealthy until you get that like next kind of payday. When you first got in the league, was that really what it was? Because I feel like now with what a lot of guys get paid when they're young, you almost have lost a little bit of like, all right, I'm making money but I don't really need the illest car right off the bat. I don't need a chef from day one. I'm just like playing at the highest level league now and I don't have to worry about my bills. You know what I mean? Yeah, it is interesting because like at an early age when you come into large amounts of wealth, you don't really know what to even do with it. Yeah. So the first three years of my career, I still lived like I was in college. I ate like, I didn't have a chef. I ate like the same type of foods, Ubered, didn't have a car, but went and go out and buy like some nice car. I kind of just operated like I was still in college for the first three. My idea of money was kind of like didn't really settle in yet. And, you know, over time, you kind of either realize some things or you also lose touch of some things as well. So it can go both ways. What were the messages you heard about money growing up that helped to create that way of thinking? I think UC Berkeley helped out a lot. Okay. You know, cause I'm from Atlanta. So I'm used to the people around me, nice cars, diamond earrings, nice watch, et cetera. When I went to UC Berkeley, it completely like shifted my understanding of like what cool or what things were. What flash was. Yeah. You know what I mean? Cause like, you know, it wasn't about that. It was about, you know, what type of, you know, what was your passion? What were you passionate about? Or what was your level of like intelligence or like, you know, what things in the world do you want to change? That was like the cool things at UC Berkeley. It wasn't the kind of car you had or kind of shoes you had on or none of that. So it was complete flip from where I grew up in inner city, Atlanta, Cobb County. And it kind of just changed my mindset completely and helped me kind of figure out like, what do I actually care about versus what do the world want me to care about? So Jalen, I'm jumping in my seat because what you're talking about are your values with money. And once you can lock in on your values and use that as your guide to how you deal with money, the experiences that you want to have, it shifts everything. So for you, when you think of those core values, what are they for money? And for life too, because it's probably a pull through with everything that you do. I would say community is one. You know, I know a lot of people look at like, you know, I'm gonna make as much money than I'm gonna give back to my community, like 10% or something like that. I flip it. How can I invest in my community first and then figure out how I can make monetary value in a different way. So I'm always looking about doing projects that align with myself, but also align with my community that solve problems or create solutions. So community is a big one of my values. I don't know. That's the first one that comes to mind at least. It's funny. I feel like athletes more so than anyone else I've seen that are able to come into wealth at such a young age, have such a desire to give back at such a young age and to create impact or to, in your case, invest in your community. Whereas you see people that grew up with money or people that made truckloads of money in finance in their 20s and 30s, don't even think about things like that. What do you think that comes from? That feeling of, you know, even in some cases, going back to your rec center you grew up in and making sure you refurbish that the second you get money. Where do you think that comes from in athletes? Circumstance. I think certain environments, circumstances, and resources that people overcame, you know, doesn't mean they forget what they, you know, what they saw in their neighborhood or what they saw in their community. So they want to help and they want to fix. If you grew up in a circumstance where you didn't see those things, you know, you can kind of be out of touch with the reality of some of these communities and environments that are around you. Yeah, and you almost, you feel like this place right here, this group of people, this block, this coach, this gym, this school, without all of that, I wouldn't be here. You know what I'm saying? Like, it could have gone that way. So who am I to like, not look back kind of thing? I feel that. But that doesn't necessarily resonate all the time with the people around you or the people you grew up with, right? And in a lot of cases when, you know, not just your friends, sometimes your family, when you are that person, that first person in that group to make some money, right? Like they, all your friends didn't go to Berkeley. They all didn't see something different. Now, how did you tackle that? Or was it not even something that stressed you out early on when you started making money? I saw that at a very early age, like growing up in Atlanta, like there's a lot of talent. A lot of people want to be athletes. A lot of people want to be musicians, actresses or actors, or just people that we see on TV. So as a 15, 16 year old, you could already start to see my projection because I was a highly, highly ranked, highly touted. You know, I was being talked about. I was on TV at an early age, but I also come from the same backgrounds that a lot of my peers around me came from, single parent household, lack of resources, lack of opportunity, but they're seeing me start to separate myself, right? So naturally I had to learn to deal with envy. I've had an immense amount of luck and favor from the creator to help me get to where I am. And also was raised by a great, great mother and family who instilled the right values, but a lot of it comes down to how the ball falls. And some people will have those opportunities and some people won't, right? So when they see someone who comes from a similar situation that's getting the opportunities that they're not, naturally friends, family, people around start to envy you. And you don't understand why. I didn't understand why I was 16. I didn't understand why I was 17. I didn't understand why I was 18. As I got older, I could step back and see kind of the way America was kind of set up and designed, you know, it makes more sense. Let's dig into that envy a little bit. And I wanna really understand what it did to you. So as you think about your relationship with money, we all have emotions with money, right? And for you, it may have been by me having these opportunities, other people are looking at me differently. They see me, I'm just Jalen. I'm the same person you've always known, but now there are these expectations. So when you think back on that time in your life, what are the emotions that come up knowing that people that you once were cool with are now envious? Because of experiences, that's a great question. Because of experiences that, you know, that you've had can, you know, alter kind of how you have your next experience. I think stoicism is something that I had to develop where it's like, I wouldn't say no emotion, but it's like, you're just the same every single day because, you know, friends, family, they can let you down, man. They can disappoint you in ways that, and hurt you in ways that it changes you, you know? And the amount of money, the amount of clout, the amount of fame that you're able to acquire puts pressure on the people around you, especially the ones closest to you. And sometimes that can cause damage to relationships unintentionally just by you just being successful or you just trying to help your community or you just trying to be the best version you could possibly be for your family. So for me, the emotion that I've developed is almost no emotion, right? Where you just learn to be stoic. You just learn to be even keeled and kind of like, just don't get too high, too low. You know, you just make decisions based off of the information that you get and the amount of energy that you want to put into something that makes you feel good about yourself and what you're supposed to do. And you just keep it at that. Yeah, it definitely, I would imagine the dynamics change on relationships that you always saw in a certain way. You know, I've experienced that not probably to the degree you do, but where you're talking to somebody and you're like, man, we don't even talk like that. Right, like, that's not how we communicate. Like, I actually need, I need some game from you. I need some advice from you. I need some support from you. Like, yes, okay, cool, I'll give you money. But like, can we talk like this or don't even talk to me differently. It's a little bit of like a mindfuck, right? Because you see people, people that are older than you that are talking to you in a certain way that you never wanted them to. And it almost makes you like, at least for me at times, it'd be like, I don't even want to tell you what's going on. You know what I'm saying? Like, in your case, it's so public, right? You signed a contract, it's so public, but it's almost like, man, I don't even want you to know everything I'm doing. You ever feel that feeling? Man, all too much. You're making me think about a lot of different situations and conversations. I think that's the hardest part for a young man, a young woman. But that's been the hardest part for me to navigate, you know, because it puts you on an island, isolates you. Conversations become, you know, invoices. Like it just gets, it gets, the lines get blurred, you know, and it gets tough. And as a young man puts you away from and disconnected to certain things where it feels like if you have, if you need something or you want to go somewhere, you can't even go there. But you get, as you mature, you get used to it and you learn to find whatever solace that you need. But if you're talking about the emotion of money, that's the, I think one of the most important conversations is that, that shift, that dynamic shift and how that affects the mental health of- Yourself. I have a question for you. Okay, I was going to have a question for you too. Well, let me go first. You go first. All right. Have you noticed like when you've heard stories like this from people that you work with, that there becomes this like resentment of money in some ways? Yes. Resentment, shame, fear. You can have a lot of money and be ashamed that you have a lot of money because now your family doesn't want to hang out with you anymore. They think you've changed. I think what we're talking about are all these emotions that come up in your life. And as it changes the emotions, we don't talk about these emotions of I am, I feel like my family might be using me. I feel like I don't have these honest relationships anymore. And then how do you deal with it? Which gets us to this place of communication of how do we talk about this more? How do we have more open conversations of this journey with money? Because you may not have millions of dollars. You may have hundreds of thousands of dollars in a bank or a few dollars in the bank. And it's still going to be this journey with money of dealing with your family. How do you support family members? Dealing with friends and family? How do you show up for events and things like that? It's all a part of those emotions and we got to have those communications. What was your question for me? So he mentioned the solace of in this journey with money, what is that for you? So you've had those instances where you didn't know how people, how genuine they were. What keeps you grounded? One. And then what is your test to know? Yes, no. Like I trust, I don't trust. I got one for you. Okay, go ahead. I got one question for you. For me, this is one of the hardest things. And it's probably one of the more vulnerable conversations I've had. But how do you ask for help? Because everybody presumes that, you know, you're rich climbing. You know, you got it all figured out. You got the money to pay for whatever you need. And we both know, because I've been in that experience that you need help in some capacity. You know, and people around you, you don't necessarily feel like you can ask for help. How, like, how do you? Yeah, I mean, I think, well, first of all, even hearing you say that, like, it's not even, that doesn't even exist in my mind yet. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't even operate on that level because I feel like my whole life, I've just been looking forward. I've been thinking about what more I have to do. I've been setting a new goal or dream. And it was never just about money. It was like a feeling. Like, I just want to, I wanted to feel a certain feeling. Some of it is for sure this thing of like, when people say money can't buy happiness and I'm kind of like, are you sure? Like, are you sure? Because I can tell you right now, watching your credit card bill and watching your bank account, that is not a happy feeling. So when you don't have to worry about that anymore, like, that is a level of happiness, like, for real. And that is, like, uncomfortable for people to say. It doesn't mean it's instead of, right? Like, if other ---- in your life is a mess, if somebody's sick, if your family breaks up, right? Or just have things that you can't control, real mental illness. No, money can't fix all of that, right? I lead with a curious confidence and I'm really honest about what I don't know and who I am and who I'm not. But also, when someone comes to me, I'm not trying to answer their question as if I really have the answer. I have my answer, you know what I'm saying? And so I think sometimes it's just setting the reality of like the situation to somebody. So when I say to someone like, yo, I think I know what I'm supposed to do here. I think I could get this done. But like, what do you think? Like, does this sound crazy? Like, am I totally reading this wrong? Am I seeing myself wrong? It allows people to really give you real feedback. You know, one of the hardest things for me with money is not allowing the goalposts to keep moving. And you mentioned that. You're like, I'm looking straight ahead. What's next? What's the next achievement? And it's easy to continue to have next, next, next versus enough. So for you, what is enough? And for you, what is enough? Jalen, what does that look like? Financially, financially, emotionally, what is your enough? When you, is it a number? Is it a lifestyle? Is it a place? What is your enough? And how will you know when you get there? A, I think not ever feeling like there's enough is my oxygen. So I don't know if I could ever cut that off. But number two is like, I don't want anyone around me to stress money. And maybe that means I don't have the right relationship with it yet. But I don't want my kids or my kids' kids to worry about money. I don't want them to think about that. So I think the answer for me will be, if I ever feel that, then I won't probably feel like myself. If someone said, hey, this is it. I actually left a job once because somebody said to me like, man, this is incredible. Like, this salary is incredible. You should think about buying a home for you and your family out here in the suburbs. And I remember looking like, damn, that's what they think this is. Like, they think this is it. This is not it for me. Like, I can't do that. I can't even have that spoken about. How about you, Dan? Oh, I think that's a great answer. I mean, I think for me, I think enough. I think God has already provided me with more than I could ever have imagined. If I never make another dollar in this lifetime again, I'm extremely grateful for everything that I have. So for me, my approach is everything that I gain from this moment on or in the future will be with the intent to invest back into my community or invest back into the next generation. So I have everything that I could have imagined and I'm extremely grateful for that. Yeah, I was just gonna say, I think sometimes, you know, if I had certain milestones or certain credentials or records or championships that could quantify maybe what I do, I would feel similar ways at times. You know, it's like you probably financially feel fulfilled in some ways, right? You have made more than you could ever have imagined and you know if you keep working on your craft, you're gonna make more money. But I would imagine that as grateful as you are for your success on the court, that drive is not in any way plateaued, right? For sure. And I think that that is sometimes what I wanna clarify is like, it's not money when I say the goalposts. And I feel like that's mental wealth. It's having that clarity of the life that I want to have is X, and you visualize that and now we're working towards it. A little bit about me, I'm a breast cancer survivor since 30 years old. So I think when I was younger, my trajectory for my career and money was always more, like more promotions, bigger, bigger, bigger. And when you have that type of clarity come in your life, it turns into, it's my kids. It's sitting here and having this really great conversation with you. You just gained so much clarity. And now I could take that clarity and apply it to my money. So that same level of clarity of the life that I wanna have 50 years from now, when I'm 100 and whatever years old, having that clarity for your money. And it sounds like for you, Jalen, you are starting to have, you have that clarity of knowing the legacy that you wanna have through giving back. So let's pretend you are 100 years old, sitting in that rocking chair on the front porch and you're thinking back on your life, what is your legacy and how did money support it? I mean, that's tough. You know, I think that hopefully, as I sit back and look that I've, it's a lot of people and a lot of lives that I was able to touch and help in different ways. But it's hard to really look, think 100 years, 70 years from now, where I'm still trying to plan out the next six months to a year to five years to 10 years, especially with everything shipped in right now. But for me, I think it's enough of us who are focused on, I think as human beings, that we are supposed to focus on ourselves and our families and the legacy that we leave for ours. Cause like, it's unrealistic to think that you can do anything else outside of that. You know, but my thought process and mindset and my family instilled the belief that, you know, the type of man you are and the type of man that you will become will be able to help many people's lives at a bigger scale. So I'm always thinking about solutions and projects and platforms that I can create that can create wealth for others as well. Where does the mental wealth entire thesis for you guys? Like, it must've come from something. What have you seen from people within your guys' ecosystem that may be applicable to what we're talking about? Yeah, so I've had the pleasure of, we have a program called Ally Money Roots where we teach all this, like the basics of emotions and understanding your money story and going deep on what are your values and how do we have these tough conversations with your family members? We have a class called Money and Love. But I've had the pleasure of teaching those classes to college students who are going through a mindset of either scarcity, of my family has never had money and I'm so deeply afraid to spend even a dollar to treat myself to dinner because I'm afraid that I'll lose it. To we got money and I'm gonna, you know, over consumption, I'm gonna spend everything. And for me, it's in those classes. It's really helping people to get back to the why behind why we're doing this. So getting that clarity on your values and locking in on how can those values show up in how you spend and save, and that requires clarity. But then also what we started out with was understanding your money story. So who taught you that about money? Who taught you scarcity? Who taught you abundance? And then now how is that showing up with how you deal with money today? Because regardless of how much money you have or don't have, and when you mentioned earlier that money can be used to buy happiness, I kind of think so too. When we look at it through the lens of your wellbeing and how you're using it to support your whole self and not just looking at it as a number. Especially in this country. Yeah, yeah, you gotta look at it in its totality because honestly, this conversation with money, and money is fun, right? I don't wanna be somber because money can be used to create a life that you want. Money can be a tool to create the life that you want. But when it's not done through that lens, it's stressful. It's keeping people up at night. It's ruining relationships, family relationships. And when you look at it through that lens, this is why we created Mental Well, is to have these conversations of, actually, I'm, for Jalen, understanding the fact that relationships change when you get money and how do you deal with it? How do you have that tough money conversation of understanding this bar of more and enough and what does my enough look like? Have I even written it down to know when I get there, I'm there? And I think we've been so focused on getting to the number that this conversation is not happening. So even when you get the money, you're still not happy. More money, more problems. It's funny you say that. We can't be so somber about it, right? If I'm a listener, I'm like, okay, guys, let's not act like money is the root of all evil, even though clearly these sayings come for a reason, right? I mean, there's gotta be things where you're like, nah, this is where I'm having fun with my money. I'm gonna get whatever home I want. I'm gonna travel however I want. Is there an element of that where you also can have that experience with it all? Yeah, there is. The financial freedom that y'all speaking to is key. I think that is extremely helpful in terms of being able to create the life that you want and finding peace. I think money definitely can help bring you that peace of mind that you're looking for. But at the same time, it also can add some stressors and things as well that people who don't have money don't also understand at the same time. So it's a balance. But don't think it's gonna be one without the other. Like people think people got money and everything is clear as day. It's not always the case. So you still would take that option of being the person to have it, but just know that it also comes to some detriments, mental health, relationships, family dynamic shift, and depending on the person, if you value those things immensely, you know what I mean? It may not be worth it for you. Just for, I think that's a huge topic, money versus having it versus not, which one? I think majority of people, if not all people would choose to have money, but just don't expect it to not to come with you signing up for other things as well as the more money you accumulate, the more stressors and problems and people around you and things like that also start to shift. That can affect you emotionally, mentally, spiritually as well. Yeah, it almost makes, at least from my standpoint, I think about sometimes am I even teaching the right principles around money to my kids or do I even know them? I don't even know if I would know where to start. I want my kids to not worry about anything. I got two girls, I knew early on I'm gonna spoil them. I don't get why, I don't understand it. I wish I had some discipline, but I'm really gonna do whatever it is that they want to a degree. Kids now don't have cash, so you're just using your phone and swiping. You're sending Apple Cash. All of that feeling of having, not having is kind of gone. So I don't know how I will or if I've even run out of time in instilling that in some ways. So no, I would ask what we're doing now, ask your kids what's their first memory of money and what did it teach them? Because your narrative about money is, you have it by about the age of seven or eight. So they have their own money story by the age of seven or eight. Wait, is that for real? Yeah, for real, for real. So everything that you've learned about money, you learn it at a- Like Tooth Fairy. Yeah, yes, okay, let's get into the Tooth Fairy, right? So I've taught money classes where you would think that the Tooth Fairy is innocent. I've taught a class where, no, seriously, a young man said he got money from a Tooth Fairy, but then his mom needed the money and took the money, right? So how that showed up for him now is he doesn't trust people with money. Like, I'm not giving you my money, you may take it. Fast forward to me, I have a 10-year-old who's losing her teeth. A couple of years ago, we gave her like $20. I didn't wanna give her $20, that's all I had. And I took the money, not because I needed it, I took it because I didn't want her to lose it. There's a difference. And what I had to do was put a little IOU in her little piggy bank and say, hey, the Tooth Fairy is gonna give you your money when you're ready for it. But that's where we're not having those conversations of explaining why did I take the money? And when am I gonna give it back? And with your kids, they're left just wondering what happens to the money. The Tooth Fairy came and took my, and then my mom took my money, and now I don't trust people with money. So having those conversations with your kids to understand what is your money story? What are your emotions around money? When I say no, how does that make you feel? When I say yes, and I explain it or don't explain it, how does it make you feel? Instead of it just being yes to everything or no to everything without that explanation, and then we grow up and have these stories that may or may not be true. It's funny how you talked about the Tooth Fairy there. Like that story, the mom was the Tooth Fairy. The mom was the Tooth Fairy, but. She really just took her money back. But she gotta explain it, right? You, Jalen, obviously this might not be relevant for you today, but when you hear that, and also I think it's interesting because it's good to get the answer from someone before they're raising their kids because what I would have said before I had kids and what is true is totally different. I would have said, man, I'm never gonna spoil my girl. They need to understand, and as soon as I had kids, I was the total opposite. Yeah, I think about that all the time. If I were a father, what type of father would I be? What type of principles would I want to instill? I have no kids, but I think about that stuff all the time, so it's one thing to think about it now, but then when you actually are in that moment, it's a lot different, I assume. And I'm telling you, I don't know how you feel about this, and Ally is a digital bank, right? It has changed the dynamic of how people, I would imagine how young people see money and think about money, to just be able to not even carry a wallet, not even carry cash anymore. Yeah, I think it's the ease of money is a great thing about Ally, but also really understanding the why behind your money. I give a shout out to Ally for even doing this program, for helping people to understand that you can have that ease with money. You can also enjoy money. I love to call it return on joy, using money as a tool, being so thoughtful and so clear about how you want to use money so that you are able to deploy it in a way to where it can bring happiness. And that's really the goal, if you want to have ease with money and you also want to enjoy it. Yeah, Jalen, for you, and it wasn't even that long ago, it was probably only a decade ago, what you may tell Jalen getting his first check today that you have the insight on, which may be something that young people or young athletes could benefit from hearing. Tell me the question, so what am I telling myself? What are you telling yourself when you got a hold of that first check, that first payday, that's draft night, you know you've got money coming to you that you've never seen before, what you would tell yourself now from what you know? What I would tell myself now is, I guess I would say there's some more on the way. Ha, abundance. There's some more on the way. Out here in abundance. But at the time, I was so reserved, so when I got my first check in the mail, I physically touched it. Because I got the advice, just fill your first check. Isaiah Thomas gave me that advice and I got it in the mail, and it was as I went to go deposit it and stuff, so I got that first experience. And I'm grateful that I had mentorship to let me experience that. Because a lot of athletes don't know how much money is in their bank account or are not in control of it at all. So I would tell the next generation is just keep an eye on your money from day one. You know what I mean? Attractions, be careful who you give approvals to, from advisors, like even if you get busy or people are encouraging you to do things, be like, it'll be all right, they can wait. Make sure that you can have a level eye on what's going on with your money, is what I would say to the next generation. Because a lot of athletes today and now have no idea what's in their account or who has a charge of approving it and how much is leaving per month, have no clue until they retire, and then it's not there. And they wonder what happened. So I would tell the next generation is just keep an eye on it. If it's something that you want to do, make sure you're approving it or involved. I give a, I refer like there should be three approvals before anything gets done. Just so there's a level of order that takes place. Because you get busy and you look at things and you might have only seen it once and people approve stuff. And then there's bills that pile up and you wonder where they came from. I would say just try to keep an eye on it as best you can. You work very hard in your career. It would be a shame for that work to not be able to be withstood long-term as you retire so you can enjoy certain things. So I would say to the next generation, just keep an eye on it. I would say to myself, just keep doing what you're doing. I would just give myself encouragement for the most part. But at times I probably would have told myself to be a little better at times as well. Yeah, you know what's funny is I guarantee you if I'd asked you, let me not guarantee. Let me just say, I would suspect that if I said to you, how would you tell your younger self to deal with the complications of those dynamic shifts? There really isn't sometimes an answer to that. Experience, that's all. I mean, tools of discernment is just experience, holding people accountable, evaluations are things like stuff that you should have, accountability, evaluations, just making sure that things, projects are being managed. Like you just, you gotta develop tools of discernment but only experience can kind of give you that. But as a young person developing that, either a three month window, a six month window before you start to evaluate things, are they going, how much money was spent? Then you can make a decision from there. This will be my best advice, set a time bar about when you want or expecting some type of results, a fair one for people or both parties and then evaluate it after that time is up and evaluate it based on the responsibility, amount of money went in and these things and just set reminders for yourself to kind of give you that discernment. And some things may turn out to be good, some things may not, but at least now you're starting to build understanding of money and of time and responsibility and how it all kind of works together and rather than just kind of letting things kind of slide up under the rug over and over and over again. So I would say a good buzzword would be tools of discernment and only experience can kind of give you that, given time to start committing time to somebody or to something, I'll give you a year, I'll give you six months, I'll give you two weeks and then kind of seeing where we go from there. So with your tools of discernment, as you think about what's next for you with money and I want to look more on the joy side of it, using those same tools of discernment, what are you doing to bring joy in your life using money? For me, and it doesn't have to be something big, for me, I'm on this chocolate cake because I like to buy super fancy chocolate or cookies. That's my thing. So for you, big or small, what is going to make you smile when it comes to money? I think traveling. Ooh, where to next? I'm doing some traveling this summer, but I love traveling just to experience different cultures. I love history, learn about different history and stuff like that, exploring museums. Those are stuff that I like to do that makes me happy, but also just helping people, helping other people, in the community, seeing businesses grow, seeing people develop ideas into reality, just seeing people who care about the world also find some level of success. So I think those two things would be the most joyful things for me, helping people and traveling. All right. Chocolate, wow. Yes, I know. I'm just, don't judge me. I feel some judgment. That's a good way to keep your money tight, though. Well, I know the chocolate I've been buying. I don't know. So we'll see. But even think about that. So if you think about, for me, it's chocolate, but do I go to Switzerland to have chocolate? Like, I think we have to lock in on those things that bring you joy, and then how do we go deeper with how it can bring you joy? And that's what I want people to start understanding with money is that it's the travel, but maybe for you, it's a list of all your favorite museums around the world, and now we're checking them off. But having that level of clarity to be able to use money as a tool for joy and really locking in on it. That's why I'm smiling so much right now is because when you look at money through that lens, it really shifts it from being, you mentioned earlier that saying money is evil and all these things. You shift from it being, having this negative connotation to it really being a tool to fuel the life that you want. Yeah, it's funny. I was reading this magazine the other day, and it was like a column that said, like, what's in and what's out. And on what's in, it says experiencing things. And then the line to the right was, what's out, watching it on Instagram and thinking that you're experiencing it. And I don't think it's the amount of money that you always need to go and experience these things, like to your point about chocolate. But I think that in that way, money can be such a joyful, healthy thing when you can put it towards experiencing life. And Jalen says traveling. Like, if you don't work to make money and then to go and experience life, it really doesn't matter if you spoil your children or if you put things away or use discernment. All those things are real. But like, if you don't use it to find the joy from it, I would imagine that none of it makes sense. None of it. And it's your joy. Yeah. Because yours is spoiling your girls, his is traveling, and mine is chocolate. So I'm not judging anybody on how they do it, but you do have to lock in and find what it is. Yeah. Let's just clear that up. Spoiling my girls is not my only joy. Okay, tell me more. Tell me more. No, I'm just saying, like, that has happened, but that is not my joy. You don't want them to hear this. I would say that if I were to answer the question- Remember that when they turn 18. You said it. No, I do spoil them. I haven't grappled with whether that's bringing me joy or not yet. But what I will say is home. Home, as my home has become more of a representation of what I've always wanted to feel when I'm home. And fortunately for me, as I've worked hard to be able to have a home outside of my main home, to be a place that brings my family together and people can come through the house. And that, to me, is part of experiencing. I love traveling, but I also like being grounded where I like to be and having everyone around and being able to do that. So I'm hearing family is what I'm hearing for you. Yeah, for sure. For sure, yeah. Which may have a sprinkle of spoiling, that's okay. Yeah, it's, yeah. Yeah, a little sprinkle of experience. Yeah. Yeah, it's family. I just don't want to be that guy that just says family. It's more than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Life. Peace. Peace, yeah, I want to just live it. I just want to feel, I want my heart rate to be chill. I want to be able to do what I need to do. I love working. I want to be able to travel if I want to travel. That's peace. I want to be able to stay home. That's peace. Family, life, peace. We're all saying the same thing. And that had, I'm not going to say it didn't have anything to do with money, but money can amplify it. So really using money and the clarity around it to make it that with chocolate or make it with traveling abroad, but finding that for you is the work. Yeah, and for me, when you grow up with the relationship I have with it, it will play a part in the joy. And there are some people that I think I've spoke to in my life that grew up in a shoebox, but their family loved each other and respected each other. And one worked hard and the other one carried the weight of the family. And they don't have that same relationship. And love is stronger than that. So if you can have that sometimes, you can probably function in life and have a totally different answer than me, for instance, right? Or a different answer than Jalen because they haven't had to deal with relationships changing because of money. That will really, that'll change your perspective on it. But for me, it will always play a part in some level of happiness. Yep, and we all got a story. Yep. All right, well, Jack, thank you. Yes. Jalen, thank you. Incredible conversation. Thank you for your partnership. This is Rich Klyman. This is Mental Wealth. Thank you so much for tuning in. Please tune in, subscribe, download, and we will speak to you soon. I really enjoyed our conversation today. For those listening in, if you're ready to tackle your mental wealth, you can visit ally.com backslash money roots where you'll find key resources to understand your relationship with money and tools to help you on your mental wealth journey.