Angelina Jolie 2017 Podcast Interview | Career, Directing & Life

And now for my conversation with Angelina Jolie. I sat down with the 42-year-old at the Hollywood offices of Netflix, which financed, theatrically distributed, and is now streaming First They Killed My Father, the fourth film that Jolie has directed, after 2011's In the Land of Blood and Honey, 2014's Unbroken, and 2015's By the Sea. Over the course of our conversation, Jolie and I discussed a wide range of topics, among them, what it was like growing up in Hollywood as the daughter of two actors, Marceline Bertrand and Jon Voight, who split up when she was still a baby, how, at an early age, she wound up exploring acting herself, and why she seriously contemplated quitting the business in her early 20s, shortly before she won Golden Globes for her work in the TV movies George Wallace and Gia in 1998 and 1999, respectively, and then a year after that, at the age of 24, becoming the seventh youngest person ever to win the Best Supporting Actress Oscar how she came to her first movie star vehicle, 2001's Lara Croft Tomb Raider, and how it, in turn, led her to, of all things, Cambodia, the Cambodian author Luong Ung, the beginning of her humanitarian work, and the first of her six children, Maddox, how her relationships and work have shaped each other. She met her first husband, Johnny Lee Miller, on 1995's Hackers, her second husband, Billy Bob Thornton, on 1999's Pushing Tin, and, most famously, her third husband, Brad Pitt, on 2005's Mr. and Mrs. Smith, a marriage that ended, perhaps not coincidentally, shortly after they worked together again on By the Sea, how she handled the initial loss of her anonymity, and how being a celebrity constantly followed by the paparazzi and written about by the tabloids and approached by the public impacts the way she lives her life and goes about her work today, why, after giving two of the most acclaimed performances of her career, in 2007's A Mighty Heart and 2008's Changeling, the latter of which brought her a second Oscar nomination, her first for Best Actress, she began turning her attention towards directing, and since 2011 has made four films, all dark, three about war, and two of them in languages other than English and starring people who actually live through the events they are recreating, plus much more. So, without further ado, let's go to that conversation. Angelina, thank you so much for doing this, really appreciate it. Thank you. We always begin by asking every episode just where our guest was born and what their folks did for a living. Your answer in some ways is more, I guess, more known than most, but I'll leave it to you to... Mine is ridiculously Hollywood. I was born in Hollywood, Cedar Sinai. My parents were both trained to be actors. My father is still an actor. My mother gave up her career to raise children. And do you think that having folks who had been actors made you more or less interested in going down that route yourself? Obviously, you couldn't resist, it seems, but how did that affect you as a kid? Yeah, I mean, it's a funny thing. Looking back, I think it would have been nice to... I never had parents that suggested I could be anything else. So, there's many, many positives. The one odd negative is that a lot of people in this town think that being an actor is the greatest thing in the world and the greatest thing to be, and so you're pushed to be that. Before you really are able to consider other ways of life, and that somehow is this natural thing that everybody should want. I think the positive side, though, is being artists. My mother, having been trained, and she worked with Lee Strasberg, is that she was very attuned to emotion. I think artistic parents tend to be very creative and have conversations with their children on a certain emotional level that maybe not everybody does in that same way because their job is to study human behavior and communicate. So, I think that that made her an interesting mother. Is the reason that you go by Angelina Jolie instead of Angelina Jolie Voight because you, as a young person, wanted to sort of distance yourself from the whole Hollywood aspect of things? Or what was that about? No, I mean, I was certainly... Well, I was entering Hollywood. I do think it was wanting to do it. I didn't feel that close to my father. I felt more my mother's daughter when I was a child, and so that was one part of it. And the second part of it is I did want to have my own identity, and I didn't want to walk into a room as John's daughter. I wanted to see if I could get the job on my own and not be hired for a name. Yeah, so you mentioned Lee Strasberg, and I read that... I mean, I guess your first technical credit in movies was when you were seven with, like, a thing with your dad. Is that right? Looking to get out? That's right. So you forget, I guess. My brother was supposed to do it. At the last minute, he wouldn't, and so then I ended up doing it. Right, but it seems like when it became more of a conscious decision that this was something you wanted to explore, I read as early as 11, you enrolled at the Lee Strasberg Theater Institute and then later did other things with theater, the Met Theater Ensemble Workshop in LA, which was with some impressive folks, and then also I think you co-founded a theater group with Tom Bauer? And so my question is just, was there ever a time when you thought perhaps your future as an actress would be in the theater as opposed to screen acting? I don't know. I don't think I ever thought I was that good in theater. I think it's a very particular talent to be on stage and to communicate to the back of the theater. I always felt that I was more internal. And funny enough, I had to recently, when I did Maleficent, I went back to my theater roots to get more comfortable again trying to hit that back at the theater and find that voice in a more theatrical performance. Theater for me is such an extraordinary challenge and something that I just didn't ever believe in myself as being good enough, in fact, to do. I went back and read a lot of the profiles and things that were written early in your career and it seems like people would always come back to this idea, and I don't know if you would subscribe to it, but that you were a bit of a quote-unquote wild child. That you had a, I guess your boyfriend was living with you at 14. Not me. You moved out at 16. Do you think you were rebelling against anything as a kid or was that overstated? A lot of the entire world knows that I live with somebody at 14. That somehow is relevant. It sounds weirder than it was, I think. I always made very strong choices. I was very strong-willed. I didn't blend in very well. All of those things. I think I still am a bit like that. I see that same wild in my children. In that sense of wanting to break barriers and I see them finding something very strong and needing to go their own way and maybe sometimes it's against what society's norms are. I think that's wonderful. I think that's the thing that eventually makes for change. But of course it needs to be directed. When you're young, it can get you in a lot of trouble and it can be self-destructive and it can be just chaotic. When it finds purpose, it can be fantastic and it can be something that then guides you in your life. A sense of wild or a sense of unconventional is I think something that I have always embraced and try to continue to embrace that. In terms of channeling it, as you say, towards something positive, it sounds like one of these things had suggested that when you broke up with that boyfriend, I guess at 16 or whatever, that's when you really decide you're going to focus on acting. For some reason, that would have given you more direction. He's gotten involved in this. Did not know I would be discussing this today. Well, what's interesting was, to be very honest, my mother knew that when I was 14, I was going to start dating and she felt, knowing me, that she wanted it to be on my terms in my room, under her roof in a way that was safer and where I could feel in control. It was actually a very smart choice because I didn't date again until I got married. So her extreme decision then actually made me much more... What happened was, yes, when we separated, some of my girlfriends had dated many people. I'd lived with someone. I was ready to be alone. I was ready to work and I focused on work and I moved out and I graduated early and I got to work and, yes, didn't entertain a relationship until I met Johnny and got married. And so it was at 17, just a year after that, that I guess you had your first sizable film role and this is, in 1993, the sort of futuristic thriller, Cyborg 2, Glass Shadow. Believe it or not, I was out of my mind excited that I got that role. Hey, you know, it was kind of a kick-ass heroine. Jumped up and down on the bed. It was my first big... My mom and I were out of our minds. And so I guess that was a very physical, sort of almost the precursor to some of the roles you would play later. Yeah, I mean, I did audition for a lot of normal roles. I just didn't get them. So, you know, I didn't really fit into those things and so I was very lucky that I came up at a time when female action heroes, female strong roles, female leaders were kind of becoming okay and kind of starting to, you know... I was very, very lucky that I hit that moment. But when you saw the movie, what was your reaction? I threw up. Literally? Yeah, I threw up. Why? Well, listen, I'm somebody that still, and I won't name which films, but I don't see a lot of my films because my idea of what they were or what I felt things... I tend to not like what I see a final film. So I think I worked on it and I had in my mind what the film was going to be. I never thought it was going to be a great film, but I thought that, you know, it was okay and I gave my all and then I saw it and it was just... I mean, now I think it's something I adore. Now it's something that's hysterical and my kids can see a piece of it. It's so funny. But then I just felt like I'd embarrassed myself and I didn't know if this was something I could do for a living and I didn't like being exposed in a way, not what other people would think, I just really didn't like what I saw. I really didn't like me. It didn't feel like me. It felt like I'd betrayed something and I did something I didn't like. So I got really, really upset and my brother was there with me and he helped me and made me feel like it was going to be okay. But I quickly went back to acting school. Because you felt that you were lacking in something? Was it somehow your fault that you... Sure. Well, I mean, yes. I think you always... It's your job to do the best you can. If something doesn't work, you can't blame other people. You have to look at where you can be better. You're part of it. If you're going to be an artist and you're going to want to, you know... So you try to solve things next time. Next time you'll get it right. Next time you'll watch for those things and fix them. Next time you'll, you know, so... And as it turns out, that seems to have been the case because I think over the next few years, people started to notice and respect your work more. There was the hacker in Hackers. There was the drifter in Foxfire. These are mid-90s. And then the crime boss girlfriend in Playing God. In that same period there, as you referenced a second ago, you got married for the first time to your co-star in Hackers, Johnny Lee Miller. And an interview at that time, you were saying that you felt that sort of your identity could get lost in that time as your identity changes when you're with somebody. And that in a way, it was the roles that helped you, the roles that you picked afterwards that helped you to reclaim your identity. Do you know what you were referring to at that point? I don't know. Was I worried about losing identity or was I just really trying to figure out who I am like we all are, right? So yes, I think you want to figure out who you are. And, you know, there's a lot that's not in my nature to be an actor. And I'm very happy that I was able to be and I'm very lucky and very fortunate. I realized how much it was for my mother when she passed away because I felt very differently about it as soon as she was gone. I think when I started acting, it was really, it was a good means to, it was a job. And I wanted to help my mom with bills. It was a creative job, something that you get to explore different times in history, different people, different types of person, you know, different sides of yourself, learn different skills. So it's a wonderful job to have when you're, as you grow, as you learn and as a person. But you also are not those people and you're young and you don't know exactly who you are. And yet you also get a microphone in front of your face and you're 17, 18. People asking you your opinions, you haven't formed them yet and you shouldn't form them yet completely. So yes, I think I was trying to find which characters made sense to me and also trying to stay true to myself, not just take any job or do anything to work, but to try to define something that made sense to me. I guess things really kind of kicked into high gear, sort of no turning back when you had these back-to-back TV films for which you won Golden Globes. There was George Wallace for TNT, you played Wallace's second wife, Cornelia, and then Gia for HBO as the ill-fated model. And I just wonder if these were sort of the first parts, it seems like maybe that you really got to dive into a character and do the kind of work that in subsequent years, you've, you know, sort of a precursor to the more complex characters you played later on. Did you feel that with one or both of those, you were taking it to a different level? Yes, yeah. Well, that I just got, I was allowed to do certain kind of work with directors and certain character work that wasn't demanded of me before and very, very lucky to have those roles and work with those other actors and those directors. So I was very happy. I also, it was a nice time with Johnny. It was a nice time in my life and it was a nice time to kind of explore relationships and you learn a lot in these films. Why after Gia though, did you then take a break and go back to school? I guess at this point for NYU, like in this, this was the first thought of directing probably, right? It's so hard to explain yourself when you're still a mystery to yourself. Again, I think I've always been in this kind of struggle with being an actor or being public. It never answered everything for me. So it was never that I suddenly got to act and then why would I make choices? I made choices because I still wasn't me. I still wasn't feeling complete and whole as a person. After Gia, I separated from Johnny and I separated amicably. We still are very close friends, but we were young and I was moving to New York and we were all just, we were, you know, there's life to be lived and we needed some space to do so and help each other grow. So I moved to New York on my own, didn't know anybody, got an apartment and started to go to NYU because I thought I had expressed what I could as an actor and now I wanted to figure out who else I was. So you thought acting was over at that point? Yeah, I was ready to kind of have a different life. I'd grown up in, you know, Hollywood in New York, but mainly Hollywood. I'd done what everybody said you should do, become an actor, you know. This is what should make you happy, right? People tell you if you look good enough, if you have money, if you have success, if you're an actor, these are all the things that should make a person happy. I was miserable. I was completely unhappy and so- This is after the Golden Globes. This is after, you know, the- Well, when I moved there, they hadn't come out yet and I hadn't won anything, but yes, I mean, the years that would follow that I would win awards and lose my privacy were not necessarily happy years. I was grateful to be acknowledged as an artist. I was grateful to be working. I was grateful to be able to help my mom, but I was very, very lost because it didn't, I didn't like that life. I didn't like, you know, having a public life. So it was weird. It was a strange time. When did that, when did you first sort of realize that privacy, anonymity, whatever was gone? Do you remember? It was after GIA and I was, I had been going on the subway to school every day and then I was being stared at on the subway and then someone followed me home. So it wasn't as much, at the time there wasn't this kind of people with camera phones or paparazzi. It was more because when people see films that film in particular dealt with someone coming to terms with their own sexuality and also dealt with AIDS. So the people that identified with this film were people who were dealing with some of those issues. And I'm quite an emotional person, very empathetic. And so for me, when somebody follows me home and tells me things about their life, the months that would follow would be people who had AIDS, people who were coming out to their parents for the first time and needed to talk to somebody, people who were young and lost. And it's impossible to not want to sit for hours and talk to everyone and feel a responsibility to do so and let that into your soul in a way. So that part of it is the privacy I'm talking about that I lost. And you feel this different connection to the world and you feel like you're a little more open and you have a responsibility. And that would just wade, it was a different life. So I felt more, I stayed home a lot. I didn't know how to answer those questions. I didn't know how to help. I wasn't strong enough to respond to other people. And I didn't know how to be what I was expected to be, either publicly, privately, I just really didn't know. With all that being the case, how did you end up not only back in LA, I guess, but back acting and in the film role that you won your Oscar for, Girl Interrupted? It sounds like you were ready to pack it in and then you'd have some of the best work of your life. Well, thank you. When you're ready to walk away from everything, you have a certain freedom. I didn't move to LA and do Girl Interrupted. I moved when I met Billy Bob. And then I moved away again and moved to London and then I moved back when I met Brad. So I kept trying to leave. Again, I feel connected to this town for many reasons, but I did wanna also have a different life. These roles come and you work on different things and you have different experiences. I was lucky that Girl Interrupted came and there was a part of me that was feeling quite mad and quite unhinged. And in fact, I approached that role as somebody who wasn't crazy, but somebody who was extremely sane in a world that didn't make sense to her and really, really searching for answers and somebody to be honest with her. And I think that's what I was desperately wanting at that time, somebody to be really straight with me. And so yes, that film came, but at the same time as that film, kind of like my earlier life, it coincided with a relationship. And so that time, I don't remember as much about winning an award, but finding a kindred spirit in Billy, somebody who's 20 years older than me, wise, extraordinary artist, been through a lot, really grounding, really kind, yeah, really funny and just a brilliant, caring person. So love the years we spent together and learned a lot from him. So your artistic journey kind of always coincides with life. And if you're lucky, your life remains more full than those characters on screen. So after an Oscar though, there's always this moment, from talking to enough other folks who have been in that moment, that it's like, what are you supposed to do? And there's, I think for a lot of people, it changes the kinds of offers that are coming at them. There can be different considerations about what you're looking for. For you, I just wonder, it seems like gone in 60 seconds, it looks like mathematically would have already been in the can when you won. But now you get offered Lara Croft Tomb Raider, which in this case is an action film, I guess for the first time since Cyborg 2, that you would be expecting. It was time to revisit. Well, but I mean $115 million adaptation of a video game. How did you end up doing? No knock on the movie. I'm just curious. No, I get it. No, I think that's probably exactly why I did do. I think this idea that now you win an Oscar, you're supposed to take yourself seriously in this way and start to kind of... And for me, I just wanted life experiences. And to be honest, when they first called me about it, I said no, because I'd seen the video game and thought it was a ridiculous idea. And then they came out and they said, you'll travel the world and train with the British military. And I thought, who could possibly say no to that? And thank God I did, because I traveled the world and went to Cambodia and my life would then change. It was also a healthy choice. I do these things sometimes, like I noticed action movies for me have not just been about kind of jumping around and I love to do that, but I tend to do them when I need to feel strong. So when my mother passed away, I did Wanted, because I thought I'm gonna cry and cover my head with a sheet or I'm gonna do an action movie. When I had the twins and I had been in a nightgown for months, I decided I would do Salt. So you go through some things. I'm looking for one now, in fact. Because of this time in my life, I feel like I need to kick some ass. I do. So one other thing that was remarked upon at the time and you had something to say about it was that Lara in the first Lara Croft movie has some very frank conversations with her dead father, played by none other than Mr. John Voight. You said, quote, I wanted to say a lot of those things to my dad and he wanted to say them to me and I wanted to hear them, close quote, which sounds a lot like something I've heard Jane Fonda talk about on Golden Pond with Henry Fonda, where their characters said some things that they themselves probably would not have. Do you find that kind of thing, have you found that cathartic as now an adult, however many years after that first one that we talked about to work with your father? Yeah, no, it was good to do. It was an early time for us to, I was in a stronger place to be able to handle our relationship differently. So I reached out and felt that it was an opportunity and we had those weeks writing and working and talking about character and it was one of the first times that I could think of and probably since, really where we would do something as a team together. And so it was what was said, but it was the doing of it that was a big deal. Yeah, so no, it was good that we did that and John and I have gotten to know each other and through grandchildren now, we're finding a new relationship and it's very, very nice. But we've had some difficulties and it's good that we're, through art is a way we've been able to talk. We found it's the common language. We don't really talk politics well, we talk art very well. So to come back to what you were referring to a minute ago, among the far flung locations where you guys shot that movie was Cambodia and from the way I've heard you speak about your time there, it sounds like it was almost an awakening, maybe an epiphany. So what happened there for you that changed the way you looked at the world? Well, so much. I mean, before I went, I was told we're going to shoot in Cambodia. I realized there's so little I knew what, you know, Cambodia, what my thoughts were, what had happened. I started to do research and when I discovered how much had happened in this country, I not only realized how much my education was lacking, but I also expected to meet a very broken people. We were the first big film backs after the war. And what was it going to be like? And when I met Cambodian people and I walked the land, I felt their resilience. I felt their spirit. And, you know, imagine too, of course, growing up, yes, I traveled a little bit as you do growing up here. I traveled to London. You travel to New York. You don't come in contact with this kind of a country coming from this kind of a war and this level of poverty. And so I just really, really understood the bigger picture in life. I really understood that I had so much more I needed to learn and I felt very ignorant and very angry with myself. And yet I was also excited to think there are these extraordinary cultures and people and I want to get to know them and I want to learn from them. And maybe this is what I've been searching for my whole life is maybe this is my journey. I did not know at the time it was going to lead me to my family. We'll swing back to that in a moment. But Lara Croft, the success of that leads not only to a sequel, but to a much higher profile for you. And I guess curious how you handled that and if you can connect the dots from there through what must have been the peak point of insanity as far as the spotlight being on you with Mr. and Mrs. Smith, where for the first time you and Brad are working together. And in the aftermath of that, when you guys got together, I cannot imagine that anyone has ever had to deal with more media scrutiny and observation than you guys did at that point. So I just wonder if you remember what that moment in time was like for you. Well, I think you need to back up to the years before that because the reason why I was all right was the years that led to that and why I was able to withstand that because by that point, I was a very different person. And how Cambodia changed me, when I left Cambodia, I was much more conscious of the world. I started to learn more about what was happening. I became more involved and I learned about refugees and UNHCR and I wanted to educate myself further. And I spent two years traveling and before I was a goodwill ambassador and since then I've become a special envoy and I've dedicated 16 years of my life now to this work because I really, I have so much respect and so much gratitude. The education I have had through the extraordinary survivors I've met around the world has really changed my perspective. So when you see people that have suffered so much, when you see that if only they had a spotlight on them, you then don't complain so much about your stupid little problems, right? You don't wake up and think, oh, it's so difficult for me because of X, Y, and Z. You simply don't. You think, all right, I have an opportunity to speak publicly. Now I have something to say. Finally, I have something to say and I have something that needs, you know, some attention and some focus. And I now am starting to form a voice. And so in those years, I would find my voice and find my purpose. And above all, I found Maddox. And the choice when you choose to become a parent, you choose to, from that moment on, the center of your world is the child, right? So in one moment, you're so, you're caught up in whatever it is that you're worried about. And the next minute is, as long as this person's okay, nothing else matters. And it's extremely freeing. It's the most wonderful thing that happens when you become a parent. And so I changed completely with my work and becoming a mother. And that became the center of my life. So when I was doing Mr. and Mrs., I was mad, was two then. By the end of it, he was three by the time we finished filming. And by the time it came out, you know, I had this amazing little boy and nothing else mattered. So nothing would, from that moment on, and still doesn't, really get under my skin in any way like it used to. As long as he's healthy, they're healthy, it's okay. That's amazing. Because I would just think, when you can't have a moment's peace or whatever out in the world, it would piss me off. No, it does. But you just, at least by the time it became that bad, I had some perspective on what really bad is, right? At least I could. But no, I think now it was more, like today, it was harder when your child wants to do something, go to the park or do certain things, and they have to deal with it. When my kids have to deal with paparazzi or my kids have to deal with people commenting on them or judging them or having a thing, that really upsets me. I was really impressed. I happened to be at the Jane documentary premiere at the Hollywood Bowl and you were across the aisle and I saw a few people, you know, I guess probably are always going to try to, can I get a photo or whatever? And because you were with, I think all of your kids at that and I thought you just, it was amazing how calmly you handled this. I would, as again, I clearly don't have the patience. Listen, I don't have a perfect temperament. I lose my temper. I have my moments where I go really crazy. But I don't mind being public in this speaking to people and talking to people. If somebody comes up to me in a store with their child and I can make a little kid happy, it's so nice. How nice is that? It can be a beautiful exchange to be a public person and people can talk to me about a lot of things from cancer to motherhood to mental health issues. That's a beautiful way to connect to the rest of the world. There's the other side of it that is different. Well, one other, maybe if there's a third side I want to ask you about is that it seems like one of the things that makes great actors great, it would, I'm not an actor, but it would seem to me as being able to observe people behaving naturally. You go out, you see how people, when that becomes harder to do because people don't leave you alone or whatever, do you feel that that has actually made your job as an actor harder? When I was young, yes, I used to do a lot of stuff. I mean, that's all I did when I lived my years in New York. I would just go for walks for hours and hours and just always alone, always watching people, studying things, studying behavior. I didn't become successful when I was 13. I did have many years of that. And I suppose I have enough close people around me. I study their behavior, six little people's behavior constantly. Yeah, it's different when you're a public person. I feel more for young actors today who are starting, because I think my generation, we started, and I did quite a few movies before I was public. I guess the camera phone wasn't there right away. It takes a really long time. It was until much later. But young people today that have success, they're going to get all of it immediately. And that, I'm not sure how they're going to handle that. A Mighty Heart, 2007, Michael Winterbaum's version of the memoir of Marianne Pearl, the wife of the journalist who was killed. You got some of the best response to your work that I think you've had. It seems like that, I believe that was the first time you played somebody who was still alive, a real person who was still living. I guess so. What's that like? That was complicated because Marianne was a dear friend. So it's both an extreme honor, but then you have the pressure of this is your real friend and her real life. And I remember about two days before we started shooting, I was sitting in the kitchen and her little boy, Adam, came in and was asking me questions and talking a little bit. And he said a few things about his dad. And I just looked at this little boy and thought, that's my job. My job is to show this little boy how much his mother loves his father and how much she tried. So that's a different kind of job. The responsibility to it, the commitment, the desire to get it right. Very, very different. And of course, because I know her and love her, it was also a funny thing to be doing something that I'm, you know, you feel like you're mimicking your girlfriend at a party and moments. But I was very, very nervous. But yet she was the most supportive. She made it very clear to me that I couldn't fail because my heart was in the right place. The year after that, another one that people really responded to, and in this case, Oscar nomination, this was Changeling, woman whose son is kidnapped and then returned, but she doesn't think it's the same kid. This was with Clint. And I know that he is one of your biggest admirers. And it seems like from things that you've said that I've read, it was a pretty special one for you that also maybe I would imagine further opened you up to the idea that you as an actor could also direct. Is that fair to say? I think even then, I still didn't think I could be a director. It never crossed my mind. That happened very suddenly. But I did learn a lot from Clint. And when I finally did direct, I did think often of different things he did. Winterbottom, many of the directors I worked with. And yes, I'm a huge fan of Clint's. Changeling came out in 2008, which means you probably made it in 2007 at the beginning of which you lost your mother, as you mentioned earlier. And I just wonder, do you think that it's an emotional performance? It's a tough work. She's not lost her mother. She lost her kid. But are you somebody who channels what you're going through into the work? It was absolutely, I needed, I did, as I mentioned earlier, I tend to do that thing where I do an action movie when I'm at a low in my life. So I went off and did Wanted and kind of got a certain kind of pain out. I was an emotional wreck and it was good to be able to have an outlet, to be able to let so much pain come out and so much, so many tears. So it was good. And then also I really, I had this feeling I just couldn't face a first Christmas without my mother. So I really wanted to be pregnant. So during Changeling, I got pregnant with the twins. Well done. So how do we end up three years after that with you directing something that you wrote? This is the first, this was your directorial debut in the Land of Blood and Honey. This was a, I think, tell me if this is an adequate synopsis, but because I certainly, I saw it. It's not an easily summarizable movie, but a film about a Bosniak or a Bosnian Muslim prisoner of war in Bosnia during the 90s who is imprisoned in a jail run by the father of a Bosnian Serb soldier she knew before the war. Why that subject matter? And how did you wind up directing it? Well, I suppose, you know, now that we've talked about my entire life up to this point, it oddly does add up in my head. I mean, it's that looking for, I didn't plan to direct. In my work with the UN, one of the conflicts I was having trouble understanding was the war in Yugoslavia, former Yugoslavia. And there was a few days that I got the flu, basically. And I went into this separate room, this white room in Miroval where we have a house to stay away from the kids so I didn't get them sick. And I never have that time. So I didn't know what to do with myself. And I thought, I'll write a story. I'll write a script. I've never done it. I'll do it for fun. And the exercise I want to give myself to learn about, I want to learn about that war. And I want to understand how people who are lovers and friends can get to a place where they can murder each other. I really, I want to know if that's how the story starts and that's how the story ends. What happens in the middle that does that to a society and to family members and lovers? And so that was what it was. And it gave me kind of a good exercise to do homework on the region and travel to the region. And so that's what, and I never planned on really showing it to anybody. And I was doing it for myself. And then somebody saw it and said, they thought it wasn't so bad. And then somebody else saw it. And the next thing I knew, they said, we have the funds for it. And I was possessive only because it was political and sensitive and also as a sexuality and I wanted to get it right. So I felt I needed to do that to get it right. And then I remember the day where suddenly I realized I was directing a movie and I was, I didn't, I really didn't understand how I'd gotten there. And I really felt completely overwhelmed, but very full of purpose and very excited to work with actors from another country. And that's where I wanted to go here because it seems like I'm sure that in many ways you've continued to evolve as a director since then with the, I think it's now this was your first to kill my father, I think is the fourth. But it also seems like you had instincts that have held true, you know, through them all in this case, cast local people. Some of them have actually lived through the events you're depicting. And then the different thing that you did on this one, which I can't imagine how much more complicated this made it for you, but I understand why you did it was to film it in Bosnian and in English. So you're basically making two movies. Well, I, it was written in English and I, and it was funded in English. And you kind of are in the habit of that's what people do. They kind of want to, they think the way to do this is the audience and you want to reach as many people. And so you're kind of raised to believe that that's what it should be in order to communicate. And nobody really questioned it. And then I was working with them and I went to the bathroom and I came back. And before I sat down, the whole group who I'd been talking to had switched and they were speaking their native tongue, right? It was formerly known as Serbo-Croatian. And I listened and I heard them and it's just, it was a different personality. It's a different them and such a beautiful language. And it just felt wrong to not shoot it in their language. But of course, I'd made a deal financially to do it in English. So they said to me, I said, I really, really feel it has to be in their local language. And they said, if you fall behind, even a day, you can only do English. But if you want to try to do both, you knock yourself out. And so I said to the actors and I said, listen, we've been challenged. So let's take the challenge and let's do on average two takes of each and let's switch quick and let's be ready. We can, you know, we can do this. And they obviously, for their own country, were very committed to that challenge. That's amazing. What a gift for them to have. And then I guess, you know, with First They Killed My Father, it seems like you've now found financial partners who see that there is value in telling it and just forget about English, do it in their, in the local language. And also, I think, give credibility to the, you know, the audience, an audience that is interested in these subject matters, wants to hear it in the voice of the people, in the language it was spoken. They want to know the history in the real voice. You know, don't speak down to your audience. Don't think that they can't hear that. It's also very important because languages like Khmer, very special languages, ancient languages that we need to strengthen. We need to make sure that they stay, that they exist, that they're taught, that they, it's part of preserving the culture. So three years after Inland Blood and Honey comes out, you're back directing again. So I assume it was not a unpleasant, experience. And so how with Unbroken, this is something people in Hollywood, I guess, had been trying to do for over 50 years and we're not getting there. Here, you've, you're the one that cracks the code. And why did you fight so hard to be the one who got the chance to do that? And just, I know you ended up becoming very close with Louie Zamperini. I remember you introducing him the night that you became the youngest person ever to get the Gene Herschel Humanitarian Award. And he was there. And then a year later, when the movie came out, he was gone. And so I just, just how did this, it seems like a, just a kind of a whirlwind of a experience with that one. Yes, it was. I mean, you have to, I'm not somebody necessarily who's religious or spiritual. I'm not sure what I am. But I do believe when you're very much on path, when you're listening to your own instincts and you're coming from the right place, things, sometimes you can see them and they kind of fall in line and you can recognize what you should be doing. And this was that for me. I kind of looked, you know, I love directing. I realized I much preferred giving the spotlight to other actors. I much preferred not being in front of the camera. I love being with the team. I love, I love the community. I love the family. And I even like the responsibility of being the director. So you, you read, they give you, here's all the different movies that are out there that, you know, different to talk to studios. You're going to go in as a director, have meetings with studios. And so I looked through these lists and on the universal list, there was this one. And I even went home and said to Brad, there's this one. And you know, I do love history. And World War II, of course, and he said, oh honey, that one's been around forever. He had known about it. Yeah. He's like, that's not, and I was like, but, but what is that one? So I went in, I read a script on it and I went in and basically explained why I didn't like the script. And Donna kind of said, well, read this, read the book. And I remember saying to my agent, I'm never going to get this job. I don't even know why I'm, you know. Why did you think you'd never get the job? Well, it was just, it's a big World War II movie. It's a big studio movie. But then I read the book and I was just, I had to, I had to understand Louis. It's like, it was a, it was a journey I needed to take. I wanted to know this man. I wanted to know how you go through all of this and then survive that way with your spirit intact. And I love the idea of these stories. It's somebody who's not perfect and actually not special in any way other than his will and his spirit are strong. And I think we need more of those. And then when I got closer to doing it, they, I said, can I meet him? Where is he? And they said, he knows where you live because he can see your house. Oh my God. Normally that would be creepy. But yeah, they said he knows where you live. And, and right up from the bedroom window was, yeah, he was, you know, up the mountain, but I could see him. That's unbelievable. And yeah, we became very, very close. So it wasn't as long a gap between films two and three that you directed as it was between one and two. I think just a year after Unbroken was By the Sea. You've laughed about the fact that it was pretty much right on the heels of your wedding in 2014. It's not the way everybody chooses to have a honeymoon. Yeah, it may not have been a good idea. Well, I mean, just to, for somebody who hasn't seen it yet, this is another one that you wrote and directed. And you and Brad are playing a couple going through a horrible time after the wife has two miscarriages. Was it a healthy thing to put yourself through at that point? It should have been good for us. To be honest, I wanted to work with him because we had met working together and we worked together well. And even though that was a challenging role, we'd matured and I wanted us to do some serious work together. And I wanted to see him do that kind of work. So I thought that it could be a good way for us to communicate. And I think in some ways it was. And in some ways we learned some things. But there was a heaviness probably during that situation that carried on and it wasn't because of the film. And it was something that we were dealing, that, you know, things happen for different reasons and things, you know, why did I write that exact piece? Why did we feel the way about it? We did when we made it. I'm not sure. Well, is it true that you had actually written it years earlier? Because it seems like in some ways, obviously it's about grief but it's also connected to it in other ways. Forget about anything that we've already talked about. If I'm correct, I had read that you wrote it when you were, it was shortly after the death of your mother as well, or at least started on it or something at that point. And then also that right when you started filming it was when you had just been through the mastectomy that you wrote about in The Times. And then when you were finishing it was when you're in the editing room and you had another health scare, right? So, I mean, it just seems like every step of the way there was something. I don't know. I mean, my life has been, I've had many, many extraordinary, very fortunate things happen. And it's also been many different things over the years that have been challenging. So that wasn't a particular time just when I wrote it. I mean, if we look at it, I had my mastectomy right before I shot Unbroken, in fact. Always before Unbroken. I mean, just over the span of that decade, I did lose my mother. I did have my mastectomy and I did then have an ovarian cancer scare and have that surgery as well. And other things, of course, that happen in life that you go through. It really depends. A piece of art can be something that can be healing or it can just be difficult. I still don't know. I'm happy we did that film because we did explore something together. And whatever it was, maybe it didn't solve certain things, but we did communicate something that maybe needed to be communicated to each other. First They Killed My Father comes two years after that. This is, again, the fourth film you've directed. And really, I guess, does it trace back to that same first trip that you took to Cambodia with Lara Croft, right? When I was on that trip, I picked up the Wong's book and her book was really the first book that helped me to look at and understand what had happened. It was the beginning of an education for me. And how soon after that did you actually connect with her? Because I know you guys are very close now. Soon. Yeah, no, soon after. I returned and when I started working on these issues, I planned to go back to Cambodia with the UN and work with demining groups as well. And turned out that she was working on the campaign to ban landmines and going to Cambodia also and working. So we went together on mission, in fact, to work with these different groups together and became very fast friends. So when along the line, this is just, I guess, for fun fact purposes, when along the line did you become a citizen of Cambodia in addition to being a citizen of the US? This is kind of something people may not know. It was 2005, I believe. How did that happen? Well, I'd been working in the country, but I think when MAD was about, well, maybe it was about one. In fact, the place that Luong and I went to when we went back together was Battambang, which is up and then near Sem Lot, which is near the Thai border. And it was the first and last stronghold of Khmer Rouge, where there's a lot of landmines. And it's where I decided to buy a small piece of land and start an organization to help many things. We look after the Cardamom Mountains. We protect the forest from being deforested, from demining. We have schools and clinics and TB AIDS clinic and just work with thousands of people there and have for about 14 years now. It's named after MADX, right? MADX, yeah. So why did that script, which I believe you and Luong started on a while ago, why did this stay in a desk drawer for as long as it did? Because we, well, so I, when we, we were friends forever and never thought about making it into a movie until I directed Blood and Honey. And then I thought, all right, I do love directing. What do I love? And I love her piece and her film. So I called her and said, we should try to do this. What do you think? And we did. And then we finished it. And we decided, we kind of talked about what it would be like to do it. And we talked about how the country would feel. Would the country be ready? It's very, very complicated to do this film in this country because it's not something people talk about. Some people are still very much in denial. The tribunal had not come to the decisions it had made only just a few years ago at that time. So there wasn't the guilty verdict yet and the label of genocide in that official way yet. But most of all, we looked at MAD and said, MAD has to do this with us. MAD needs to know. Part of doing this is MAD is going to learn a lot about who he is. And we can't do it without him. So we told MAD about it. We talked to him. He's known her his whole life. So he knows her story. And we said, when you're ready. When you're ready, you got to take it seriously. And when you're ready, we'll all do it together. So I did Unbroken. Other things happened. And then MAD came up to me and said, I'm ready. I want you to make Luong's film. I want to go back. How old was he when he sent this to you? 14. So I guess another partner that was required to do this, I believe they were in from the beginning with you, was Netflix. And the big consideration for a lot of filmmakers when it comes to Netflix is that maybe your film doesn't get a wide theatrical release, but it is then available in all but like three or four countries in the whole world. Why did the latter trump the former for you? Well, I had, as you mentioned, I'd done Blood and Honey. And I love foreign films. Foreign films are hard. They tend to be very understood and embraced when they're good and when you do them right in a country, in the country itself. But then globally, when it's very hard, it has a very particular audience. And it was so important to me that this film be really seen and understood because I wanted people to have that education that I didn't get. I wanted this country to be understood and seen and the artists from the country to be seen and appreciated. So it was that, it was the global reach. It's also true that in a lot of these countries, there aren't a lot of movie theaters. And Cambodia, Siem Reap, where we were in, I think has three and nobody really goes. So they weren't going to, even though we did put it in theaters there and we showed it and we screened outside and now we've been showing it at schools. But a lot of people see it this way. They'll see it more in country, around the country, people that don't have access to the kind of theaters that some people do. So it was very much the reason I went to Netflix first. You made a couple of or several key decisions with this one that could have gone a different way to do it in Khmer or Khmer is the language? I think both are okay. They're both okay. The official language of Cambodia, to shoot it in Cambodia with, again, locals. Why did you decide that was essential on this one? I guess we've sort of addressed that, but also how receptive was the government and the local people and all the folks who I guess would have to kind of get on board for you to actually be able to do this. Yes, well, and that was the other thing. We wanted MAD to be ready and that was one step and we needed the funding, the support and I really wanted to work with Hrithy Pan, who's this extraordinary filmmaker, producer, Cambodian. But then it was, we won't do this if this in any way is going to be disruptive in country. If this in any way, the country's not ready for it and it could have an imbalancing effect or do something because it's obviously this, that's more important than anything and the victims, the survivors, it's more important that they're okay and when they're ready. So we went in country and I'd go there often with others. So you kind of get a feeling and we talked to a lot of people about doing this and it's a long story, but it really is to represent everyone and through the eyes of a child is a different way of helping people look at things because it comes without a certain kind of judgment. It comes with just a witness to things and to be interpreted and to put in front of people and to feel it in an emotional way and to show the love and beauty of the family. So we focused on that and yes, I was very, very surprised that we had the government support. We had many, many meetings with Apsara, the people that work on the protection of land, anything I could possibly learn about how to do this and how to do it right, how to communicate with the local people because they weren't used to these kind of films. And reliving in front of them. The biggest concern was that we were gonna bring back the Khmer Rouge and we were gonna re-traumatize people. That was the biggest concern for you or for them or who was saying that? For me, the producers, for all of us, we just felt like this is not something that is talked about a lot and now, and these people are not used to film, so when you suddenly have a mass of Khmer Rouge soldiers and tanks coming over that bridge, what is that gonna do and how do we get everybody ready for that? How do we make it cathartic and not traumatic? And so there was just a lot of communication, a lot of community meetings, a lot of meetings with the monks, a lot of blessings, a lot of prayer, a lot of stopping to talk, a therapist on set every day. We really kind of did it like a therapeutic, communal exercise and... Luong was on set all the time. And Luong was on set. How did she feel about, obviously she'd written about it so she relived it in that way. Well, she said something beautiful. She said during the war, everybody was alone. Everybody felt alone and scared and this was everybody together and everybody over 40 remembers the war. So everybody on set was either a child of somebody or they themselves, this was their life. So just everybody was holding each other. When there's an emotional scene, you'd look around and you'd see everybody holding each other, crying, talking, praying. It was such a collective. It was such a sharing that I think it did do something quite special. And I was very humbled to just be a part of it and be able to witness it. With the last two or three minutes, I hope we can just do something where we often just like the first thing that kind of comes to your mind, if that's all right. This movie was unveiled at Telluride. That's where I was lucky enough to see it. Got a huge response there, everywhere else since. Then to have it chosen by Cambodia to be Cambodia's entry for the foreign language Oscar race. What does that mean? Oh, well, that means so much to me because it means that the country, as I said, this country, it's been a very, very long time, 40 years after the war, to be able to acknowledge this part of the history and to have something where people could come together and agree and discuss. And so for the country to put this forward and agree and come together and say that this represents a part of their history is an acknowledgement and is such a step forward for the country just on what it actually symbolizes. For me personally, I remember the day that I was nervous asking Luong what she would feel if I adopted a child from Cambodia because I didn't know if Cambodian people would be offended if I was a mother to a Cambodian child. So for me to be allowed to be a part of another country and then for that country to accept me as their own and be able to represent them is the greatest honor. Last I heard, you do something that's unusual in Hollywood. You don't have a manager, an agent, or a publicist. What's that about? I have an agent. You do, okay. Publicist I never really got along with. I've had to have them for emergencies and it's never worked out well. So it just, yeah, I mean, I just, I don't know. I really don't know. All four films you've done have been sort of darker subject matter, three of them about war. Is that just solely attributable to this, that your interest with the UN type humanitarian activity has brought you into that world as often as it has or you've gone into that world? Or if you were to psychoanalyze why those are the movies that you've chosen to direct, what's that about? Well, I think any film really is a study of human nature, human behavior, and obviously in wartime we come to the extremes of man's inhumanity to man and our deepest humanity. So it does these extremes that I think maybe I'm interested in. But every film in a way, they're all war, but they're different kind of stages of, it's almost like I'm trying to understand how we prevent war, how we get through war, how we survive a war. In Blood and Honey, it was this like collapse under something and how it divides and then Unbroken, it kind of rose up. And then for First They Killed, it was so much the love of the family and how you actually can't take away the thing that can actually be the most beautiful thing that can come through something so horrific and to see it really through a child. So they all have different things. Somebody said to me once, which I think, I probably shouldn't point this out. If somebody tells you like, here's the thing you do as a director all the time, don't tell anybody, but I'll tell you. All right. Somebody said to me, why is it in every one of your films, there's always a scene between two people and one person drops to their knees and the other person's left standing? Isn't that strange? And it never dawned on me. There's no reason. And it's in every single one of my films. Almost like, it's almost like embarrassing how it's like you could almost put them all next to each other in The Strange. But I wonder if there's something to that, that idea of something I've always been trying to find in life. Like when you're up against something and you have to find what you stand for and then you have to fight for it and then you have to kind of, you know, your will and your drive and will you stay standing or will you fall? Or will you accept that you're responsible and then will somebody step forward? So something about that I am very drawn to. And all four have different cinematographers, right? And all four have different cinematographers, yeah. All amazing, all amazing men. Why should refugees and friends of refugees like yourself not despair at the Trump administration's very unwelcoming attitudes towards refugees? I've been working on these issues for 16 years and I hope to work on them until my last day. And I hope my children work on these issues. You know, these things are bigger than all of us and me personally, I believe in, you know, things evolve. I think as we have to hope that even in our darkest times that if we look back in history, we've hit very, very dark times and we've come out stronger. And we have to believe that that is what our goal must be. And sometimes things can crystallize something and then you understand even clearer what you need to fight for and why and what you need to hold on to and why. And so I think that can be and maybe must be the way people have to look at dark times. And then the last thing is just for you, what these next few years, you have any specific goals or challenges for yourself, anything? Like what do you think these next few years will hold for you? Teenagers. Teenagers? Toward directing though? Or will you also act? Are you done with acting? No, I'd love to. I'd love to do a little bit more. I think I'll enjoy acting more than I did before now that I'm older and I come at it differently. I would love to direct again. But very honestly, I've spent the last year and a half doing nothing but really just being a mom. And it's the most important thing for me to do. I'll see what projects come, but I'll see how much I need to balance that with my kids right now. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Thank you.