'Liberal democracy' or 'biblical fascism'? Israel's choice at the polls

A friend of mine in Israel said this election is about a choice between liberal democracy or biblical fascism. Is that overstating it? No. You agree? Yes. I think that the government today, which is standing now in a way for re-election, is governed by messianic groups of fundamentalists, religious extremists, radicals, that are aiming publicly and openly, pushing out all of the Gazan people from Gaza and all of the West Bank from the West Bank in order to be able to, in the near future, they hope, to be able to integrate the territories of both Gaza and the West Bank to become officially part of the State of Israel. What they think about is annexation of these territories. This is messianic, fascist, brutal, terrorist attitude, and it is inspired and governed by ministers, senior ministers in the Israeli cabinet, and with the tacit and sometimes explicit support of the prime minister himself. So this is a real choice that stands now between, for the Israeli voters, a choice between fascist groups of thugs that are governing the Israeli government now and the state, and also threatening the basic foundations of the democratic values which characterize the state of Israel from its inception. And a group of parties which are centrist, sometimes leaning to the left, which are absolutely committed to these basic values. That's a very stark way of putting the choice before the Israeli public. And so, Pfeffer, do you agree with what the former prime minister just said? And if the issues of the West Bank and Gaza are not just so important, but also defining for the future of both the Palestinians and the Israelis, How come the issue of Gaza and the West Bank has barely cropped up in the election campaign, Pfeffer? Well, I disagree. I've been reporting on this election for months now, and I've heard both the West Bank and Gaza mentioned by candidates in speeches, in many of their publications and propaganda, so I'm not quite sure where you got that impression from, Matt. But just again Gadi Eisenkot, who's the main challenger to Netanyahu in this election, He made a big press conference just a week ago saying that he would end Hamas's rule within 18 months. And there was a speech on Sunday where he spoke about that quite at length. So I'm not sure where you get the impression from, Matt. I'm really sorry. Well, I've not been in the country, but not nearly as much as you. I've been here for a couple of days. I got that impression from actually, you know, from reading local reports, from, you know, local papers and also foreign correspondents who say the main emphasis has been on issues of corruption, you know, judicial reform and that kind of stuff. But, you know, but I stand to be corrected. I mean, it's an it's an election campaign. It's been been going on for a few months. Obviously, there are various emphasis. But I think the issue of Gaza certainly has been very much at the center, both in the way in which the opposition is accusing Netanyahu of the failure of October 7, of his strategy regarding Hamas in Gaza in the years before the October 7 attack three years ago, but also very much the situation now in Gaza. It's mainly about the accusations that Hamas is still there. How come after three years of devastating war, they're still in charge of not of all the strip, but certainly of all the populated areas, third of the strip. It's a huge thing in this campaign. Okay, so my question to Ehud Olmert was, is this, as a friend of mine said, a choice between liberal democracy and biblical fascism? Would you agree with that choice, or was that overstating it? Well, I think that's a very stark way of putting it. Certainly, there's a huge divergence of views between the different parties. But I don't think that the opposition itself is such a bastion of liberal democracy. It's very much a mixed bag of right-wing parties and centrists, and just a little bit of liberal left-wing. I mean, it's not, it's an alternative certainly to the way of which the Netanyahu coalition has been doing government. But to say that they, you know, they represent liberal democracy in all its, in all its fine colors, you know, it would be putting them up on a pedestal, which I think if they do win the election, many will be disappointed. says Ehud Olmert, if Gadi Eisenkot, the former chief of the army who lost his son in the Gaza war, lost two nephews in the Gaza war, a man whose political calling cards, if you like, are grief and sacrifice, if he were to run this country after the election, become prime minister, what would change, both for Israelis and for Palestinians? Well, first of all, for Israelis obviously the attitude of Mr. Eisenkot and the parties that are lining up with him will be against what the former government or the present government started to do, the judicial reform, which we widely agree is a judicial program. I mean, upsetting the status of the Supreme Court, not recognizing the president of the Supreme Court, trying to remove the attorney general, all this will definitely change. So there will be a normalization, of the public discourse, which has vanished completely over the last few years. The total, the continued incitements by the government and the polarization of the Israeli electorate, this, I think, will change dramatically, which will be enormously important for Israel. and that will make a difference to the state of Israel. Whether there will be a new attitude, a new policy, a dramatically new policy towards the Palestinians, I think not at the beginning, definitely not at the beginning. I mean, I think that the government of Eisenkot will be very aggressive against the Jewish terror in the West Bank. There is no question about it. I think this is a terrible thing that is taking place on a daily basis, and the Israeli government, the present government, and the ministers, Ben-Gurion, Sportage, and also Netanyahu, are inspiring it and supporting it and are not doing anything in order to stop it. In fact, they deny what everyone can see in his own eyes, like the brutal attack against Hayden Levine, the photographer of the Washington Post. Netanyahu wasn't sure what exactly happened. According to him, it needs to be investigated when everything was quite clear in front of the eyes of everyone that wanted to watch it. So this will change. as for what I think is the most crucial issue in the future life of the state of Israel which is the comprehensive resolution political resolution of the historic conflict between us and the Palestinians that seems to will take time it's true that the block of change is made up of parties which have different opinions about this and I think that presently Unfortunately, certainly according to my point of view, there is not yet an open mind in the Israeli electorate about a possible two-state solution. It will have to take time, and it will require, obviously, also a different attitude and a different nature for the Palestinian leadership to be able to cope with the challenges which are part of such process. that will take time but as i said the rhetoric the spirit the attitude within the state of israel will be dramatically different which is a very good beginning is it enough according to my point of view it's not we have to move forward towards a political solution with the palestinians but that will take more time and if Gadi Eisenkot were to become prime minister what do you think he has realistically in mind for the palestinians both in the gaza strip and the west bank Well, I think in Gaza, he he basically faces a situation where Israel is now in control of two thirds almost of the of the of the territory. There is a 20 point plan by Donald Trump, which was presented a year ago, which is basically supposed to be the the blueprint for Gaza's future. Now, the question really is how to proceed with that, because we're now at the stage where the reconstruction with Gaza has yet to begin. the disarmament of Hamas has yet to begin. Israeli withdrawal isn't happening anytime soon. Eisenkot has a series of questions that he needs to deal with, or whoever becomes prime minister, because I'm not totally certain it's going to be Eisenkot, but whoever is prime minister of Israel after this election is going to have to deal with a series of dilemmas of how to prioritize the different sequences of disarmament, reconstruction, Israeli withdrawal. none of these are easy questions and even though Eisenkot has mentioned Hamas and Gaza quite prominently in his campaign he's done so really in headlines saying i'm going to make sure that in 18 months hamas is no longer in charge there and he's not going to pose a threat but he hasn't given and by none of the candidates and they've all spoken about gaza but none of them have really given a clear idea of how they intend to continue on those three tracks of reconstruction disarmament and withdrawal and that's really waiting for after the election i mean this is not the kind of nuance that you get in an election here we don't have detailed manifestos like you have in the uk where you know where the parties bring out 200 page books so it's much easier to talk about in generalizations like the politicians obviously on the ground it's much more complex