MCC Meets Auctioneers | John Axford Part 1

Welcome back to Masterclass on Chinese Ceramics. Today I'm in the living room of my old friend John Axford. Hello John. Hi William, it's very nice to have you back here actually. Thank you. The reason we're here today is because I started my career in Chinese art with William Wallace more than 20 years ago. It must be about that because the very first sale William Wallace had dedicated to Asian art was in 2005, and that was the year that I suppose William Wallace went on the map in Chinese art because we sold this exceptionally rare gourd vase from the Alexander collection. That's right. Gosh, so I must have actually known you before that. Oh my God, because I remember the first thing I bought with Wallace. With this brush pot from the Lord Kitchener collection. Ah. So that was 2000... That was quite a lot earlier than that, actually. 2001. And since then, we've sold a lot of other items from the collection of Lord Kitchener. I know you have. Anyway. Fascinating history. Incredible history. So, John, I'm sure our viewers would love to know how you started your career in the world of Chinese art or ceramics. Sure. Well, I suppose from a pretty early age, as in six, seven, eight, I was always really interested in art. I'm desperately dyslexic, but I'm good at making things. Oh, ****. Funnily enough, I can play chess quite well. So I wasn't totally thick, but what I really enjoyed was looking at art and making art. And so I ended up studying art, studying art history. I think actually one of the first international exhibitions I went to I can't have been more than about 12, was the Great Japan Exhibition. Oh, when was that? Probably before you were born. When was that? That's right. Long, long time ago, but it was a really big, and it made quite an impression upon me. But anyway, I was always interested in art, into making things. I went to art school. I studied bronze casting, actually. Actually, um... And when I finished, I needed a job. I worked a little bit. in photography, but it was suggested, well, if you like art, why don't you go and work in one of those auction houses? Uh, aye. Finally, I got a very lowly position in Phillips, which is now Bonhams, both in Bayswater and in Bond Street, and it was then when I realised that there are people who are coming into their career. As sort of a junior assistant in the, I don't know, antiquities department or something, they went into work and they had these marvellous two or three thousand year old things on their desks as their daily work. And I thought, this is absolutely fascinating. So I went back to college. There was a course at the time in Southampton. And you went back into the classroom and you sat exams in the history of English furniture, the history of silver, the history of... You also had to sit auction law, contract law, and all of this sort of things. And when I finished that course, I was offered, several people offered me jobs, and I took the job offered by Tim Woolley at Woolley & Wallace. That was really quite a long time ago, nearly 35 years ago. Wow. I know. So I was interested, and soon I was cataloguing. glass, ceramics, but both European ceramics as well as Chinese and Japanese ceramics. And I suppose I have merged much more to the East, it's a huge subject. I do still, there are areas of European ceramics I'm still very very keen on, I love Chelsea porcelain, I'm very keen on Meissen porcelain. But I think one of the things I particularly liked about it is the East-West connection. Because most of the things you see in 18th century English, German, French porcelains are influenced by either China or Japan. Mm-hmm. And I suppose as time goes on studying these subjects, I've morphed more to looking at the originals rather than the European derivatives. Having said that, you get Chinese derivatives. There's a dish over there which is a Chinese dish copying a Japanese design. Chinese Imari. That's Chinese Imari. Sorry. And so I suppose that's how I moved into Asian art more so. But that time back when we said back in about 2005 is when the market took a huge shift. And I was very lucky. I think we were both very lucky. Have been given the opportunity to sell this fabulous Yuan Dynasty vase, which made a world record. Yes, certainly it was the highest price for a UK auction house at three million pounds. It was unheard of. I know. And suddenly went, wow, what's this? So that's really how the Chinese department came about at William Wallace. So what you say the Alexander vase was really the beginning of your... Passion for Chinese art has really started. Is that when... Passion, but it certainly was from a commercial point of view. From a commercial point of view, that's right. It's what put William Wallace on the map. Right. All right. Yes, because prior to that, you were already selling Chinese ceramics. Oh, we had the most superb... This is back in, I think, about 97 or something. The most superb pair of hawks, but these are export things. They were this high, they'd been broken through the bodies, both of them. There's only one other pair I'm aware of in the world, which is in, it's over in Salem, is it the Peabody collection? That's right, the Peabody Essex. Peabody Essex. They have the same model in a different colour scheme, but these were enormous things, and they made a quarter of a million pounds back in the 90s. It is. Gosh. So we had already been selling some important Chinese art. Mm-hmm. But it wasn't really until 2005 for us that the Chinese start arriving in the sale rooms. That's right. I think the Chinese really started to be more very active from the year 2000 onwards. So really, I guess the growth of your department has really grown with the rise of Chinese market in mainland China. I think so. I mean, yes, I was very lucky with timing. I think so. Because we had that. What was the year that Christie sold the Fonthill collection? Was that 2004? Because it was before the market really took off. I mean they had several Fonthill sales. Yes, there were ones in the 70s and there was obviously the Cranes later on. But I think it was 2004. 2004 was the London one. That's right. So that was the year before. That's right. You can demonstrate that some things sold in 2004, had they waited another four or five years, would have made... More than 10 times, often 20 times more. I mean, the market really peaked since 2004. The market really peaked for about, I would say, about 10 years, right? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I still remember the day. Do you remember the Bainsbridge Vase? The one that was never paid for, so it wasn't a real sale. It was paid for, or it was sold eventually through a private treaty in Hong Kong. But anyway, I still remember that that evening after the sale, you called me up. Ha, ha, ha, ha. And you said, you asked me, do you think they will pay for it? Did I really say that? Yeah, you did. You asked me, do you think they will pay for it? I don't remember that. And I was like, and I think I answered you. I said. Only time would tell. And guess what? All the drama they had afterwards. And Mr. Bainsbridge even went to China, apparently, to get his money. Anyway, that was... It's a great story. That was a great story. Yeah. And I think the latest story is that he's actually sold his company a couple of years ago. I think so, yes. Yes. Now it's called something else now. Probably. I'm not sure. I don't follow the language. Yeah. But it's very interesting, you know, the Bainsbridge Vase. Well, it did represent... The height of, let's just say, Chinese fervour in the West. I mean, until today, it was still the highest price ever fetched in an auction, I think. But it didn't sell, so it's not a real price. I know, but if it was paid for... Well, if it had been paid for. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, yeah, really. Realistically, you can't count things that aren't paid for. No, but at the time, it made huge headlines. Yes, it did. And I think, for me, that was really the pinnacle of the Chinese art market of the early 2000s. That was when things were being sold for the most? I think so. Extraordinary. Now this is interesting. Here is a picture of Alfred Morrison. So he's sitting here, the richest commoner in England at the time, maybe Britain, I'm not sure, probably both. He's chosen Well, he's chosen a painting, but I can't identify that. One artefact from his collection to be painted with, and it is this pair of croissants, cranes. Mm-hmm. So there was a pair. So this is one of the pair, and then there's another one. So there are four cranes all together, but it's two groups. And they are extraordinary and exceptional. And I think when they came up for sale in Hong Kong, it was £10 million or thereabouts. That's right. Which is absolutely... The buyer bought it for his mother's 80th birthday. Bought it as an 80th birthday present. That's right. Or 90th, I can't remember. It's either 80th or 90th. Incredible birthday present, I thought. I know. But that, you know, a massive world record for ceramics. Again, from Fonthill House. I think it's probably, I think it's still probably the most expensive clothes I've ever sold. Yeah, I'm sure it must be. But it's interesting that he identified that. Yes. As the most important thing at that time. Yeah. Fascinating. Fascinating history. Fascinating, indeed. So John, I believe you have a sale coming up very soon. Well, it's November next month, and yes, we have, it's the time of the year, and we will be exhibiting a few bits in Mayfair. And he... Special ceramics pieces coming up? Yes, I have. Great. There's two things that I, well, actually there's some more than that, but I've got two things I can show you and talk to you now. One of them, somebody emailed me a picture of a dish that they, they said it was, actually they didn't say it was big, but I looked at the measurements and I thought, my God. And it was, they were keeping it under their sofa, you know, in a perfectly nice house, but relatively modest house in North London. So should I show you? Right. It's about a giant. Oh God, it's heavy. Yellow ground. Now, I have actually weighed this. What's the weight? It's about 12 or 13 kilograms. It's a huge, huge dish, but it's got this. Mark, which you'll know very well. Oh! Shu Xiu Gong Zhi. Wow. Your pronunciation's a heck of a lot better than mine. Which was commissioned for the Emperor Dowager Cixi. Yes, for her birthday. Who ruled China for almost 50 years. Yeah. It's not the biggest one. There is one. There was one that came up for auction, Was it five years ago or so, which was about that much bigger. Yes. But it is a belter, and they don't usually come this size. This dish was most likely commissioned for her birthday. That's what they say in the Imperial Palace. They say they were made for her birthday. But funnily enough, the dating, her birthday was a couple of years before the dates of this. So it's about 1885 to 1889, that sort of period. And I've seen them dated as both. But it's... It's got this tiny chip here. Other than that, there is no damage. It's got a firing bolt there, but that's... This mark is just exquisite. I mean, it's huge, this mark. Yeah, when you study these big, big dishes, they say, because they're so big, they're difficult to fire. And so what happens, they've actually put some spur marks. I can see it. I've tried to hold the base up here. One, two, three, four, five, six. Not particularly a Chinese thing, because that's... Seven. Much more typical on Japanese ceramics, but... Seven spurs. Yeah, so that's to try to keep it... Maybe one here, which would be... Even so... It should be eight. It has still sunk, and so you can see, right at the middle of the mark, it's sunk down. So, can you get it the right way? Let's show the camera the way it should be. It's sunk down, and so it's actually worn through the yellow enamel, just there, where the base of the dish has touched the ground, as it were. It was so dirty. We spent ages trying to get out of all of these. I remember you... A member of the team was photographing you cleaning it. Yes, I have been scrubbing this, well, not scrubbing, with a, carefully with a, with a sponge. The hard life of an opening engineer. I know, I know. Scrubbing and cleaning. I'm feeling, yeah, ugh. Just basically doing the washing up, but on a very large scale. So that's an exciting dish. Very good colour. They have occasionally made an awful lot of money, but, you know, I'm kind of hoping it'll... I think the estimate's 20,000 to 30,000. Yeah, it's very modest. It should be modest. I'm hoping it'll make sort of 50-plus, but we'll see. Well, let's find out. We're going to find out very soon. But that's good. And the owner made even a stand for it. No, I made the stand for it. You made a stand for it? Yes, I made the stand for it. Oh, well done. It was on... I made... Well, in order to display it, it needed a stand. Yes. You can't buy a stand for a dish like that off the shelf. So I made that downstairs in the workshop. I like making things. That's fantastic. What else do you make, John? I'll show you in a minute. But can I show you these vases first? Absolutely. Now, these are super, but I had to drive right across the country to get these from the Lake District. Mm-hmm. These are wonderful quality imperial vases. So we have here... Imperial reign mark, Daoguang, that is, what, 1825 to 1850, thereabouts, 1851. Leeching down this dew. But superb quality. Superb. And so these are lovely things, and I imagine these are very, very much Chinese taste objects. Exactly, it's boys at play, which is a very popular motif. Reaching up towards, probably a jasmine tree. Exactly. And then we've got them bringing in this cart. Uh, it's all about success and so on and so forth. Probably depicting princes in the royal household. Oh, God. Yeah. Oh. But those are lovely. And having a pair of these... Are they both perfect? No, that one's perfect. That one's perfect. This one has a section of the rim here that's been broken out and just glued back in. But it's all there. It can be done much better than that. But I think they're lovely. Yes. Funnily enough, I got a phone call today from somebody saying, just seen a picture of those wonderful vases because they're in, I think, Arts of Asia magazine. Thank Today I put them in. So this is the first time they've actually been shown. you Wow. Lucky us. Here and Arts of Asia that's hit people's doors today. very So they're really exciting coming up. much Lovely quality. for You have Shindertan. And now there's this. being Yes. Yeah, you do get them with those marks as well. So what are these worth, William? here. Oh, very hard to say. 100,000, 200,000? I hope so, yeah. But I think they probably should make a quarter million pounds. They might do. I think, yes, again, it's conservative. The family didn't really... We're going through a very tricky period in the market at the moment, so it may be interesting to find out. Yeah.